עדותה של מלבינה מרים רוזנווסר (גלברמן) ילידת 1925 Chust צ'כוסלובקיה על קורותיה בגטו Chust, ב-Auschwitz וב-Markkleeberg

Name of Interviewee: Malvina Rosenvasser

Name of Interviewer: Tami Katz

Cassette Number: VT-8459

Date: April 19, 2008

Name of Typist: Cheryl Balshayi

Names:

Chust

Auschwitz

Markkleeberg

Hartha

Praha

Dresden

Budapest

Nagyecsed

Cleveland

Q: (Hebrew) Today is Thursday, ט"ז בסיון, תשס"ח, April 19, 2008. I, Tami Katz, am interviewing for Yad Vashem Mrs. Malvina Miriam Rosenvasser, née Gelberman, born in Chust, in south Carpathia, Czechoslovakia, today Ukraine, in 1925. Mrs. Rosenvasser will tell us about her childhood and her parents, about life under the Hungarian occupation in 1939, about deportation to the ghetto in Chust, about deportation to and life in Auschwitz in 1944, about deportation to Germany, to the area of Leipzig, to Markkleeberg, for work in a factory for rehabilitation of tanks, about the Death March three weeks before liberation by the Russians in 1945, about her return to Germany, to Praha and from there to her birthplace Chust, and her return to Praha, about her move to Hungary in 1946 and her life there and about her aliyah to Israel in 1949 and her absorption, about her move in 1959 to the United States and her life there until 1984 and her return to Israel in 1984, about her move to Budapest at the beginning of the ‘90s and her return to Israel in 2006.

Shalom, Mrs. Rosenvasser. Can you tell me where and when you are born?

A: I was born in Chust, 1925, March 17th.

Q: Can you tell me about the city of Chust at that time?

A: The city of Chust at that time was a very lovely city. Most of the people were Jewish there. All over in the main streets and all over were Jews. Mainly Jews were living there and chaim (life) was very lively.

Q: Chust at that time belonged to Czechoslovakia.

A: It belonged to Czechoslovakia when I was born.

Q: And the population besides the Jews – who were they?

A: They were Catholics. They were very poor people from the little towns. They used to come in and sell things, you know, like vegetables, fruits, and Jews used to buy it.

Q: They were Ukrainians or (?)?

A: They were Russians. It was called Carpathorusisa. They were talking another Russian. They were talking there all Russian. But Ukrainian is a little bit like German and Yiddish.

Q: So the language spoken in the city was Russian? A dialect?

A: Everybody spoke what they wanted. We spoke Hungarian, Yiddish. I went to Czech school.

Q: We’ll get to that. So tell me about your parents. First of all, who was your father?

A: My father was a very big talmid chocham.

Q: What was his name?

A: Yitzchak Gelberman. And he married my mother from Hungary.

Q: What was her name?

A: Esther Weiss.

Q: She came to Chust from Hungary?

A: My father was learning in that city and this is how it was a shidduch from there.

Q: In which city?

A: It was a small place. It was Nagyecsed called.

Q: And his family was from Chust? Of your father.

A: Of my father, yes.

Q: Do you know where they came from?

A: I think originally they were Romanian.

Q: Did you know your grandparents?

A: My grandparents, yes. Ad hasof. They were alive. They went to Auschwitz.

Q: What were their names? From your father’s side. What were the names of your grandparents?

A: Gelberman Avraham and Faige, I think, was my grandmother.

Q: And they lived in Chust?

A: We lived together in one place. It was one yard. Three families.

Q: And your mother’s parents – did you know them?

A: I didn’t know my grandmother already – she wasn’t – but my grandfather was a very bechoved (respected).

Q: What was his name?

A: His name was Chaim Weiss. He was selling all kinds of things, what it grows there, you know, in sitonut (wholesale).

Q: In Hungary.

A: In Hungary. He was a big socher (merchant) there.

Q: And your father – what did he make a living from?

A: My father? Everybody was working very hard. He had a makolet, which legally had to be a makolet in the house, and we were selling for the whole neighbourhood geese was then, chickens, turkeys. And he was providing for the whole vicinity. People bought by us. Every child worked at that time. Everybody helped.

Q: So you had a grocery store in the house.

A: Yes, in the house. It had to be, legally.

Q: It was a Jewish neighbourhood?

A: The neighbourhood was all Jewish, yes.

Q: Your neighbours were all Jewish?

A: Yes.

Q: No one non-Jewish? No non-Jewish neighbours?

A: I can’t remember non-Jewish neighbours. Just was across the street a Hungarian restaurant. When the Hungarians came in, she gave them food for all of them. She was very happy the Hungarians came in.

Q: So how would you say was your economic situation? Good?

A: My father was a very big talmid chocham, but first was the parnassa, you know. He was helping a lot. He was trying to make parnassa and he helped. We were eleven children.

Q: You were eleven children.

A: Eleven children. And he went to shul every morning, early.

Q: Maybe we will talk about your sisters and brothers. You said eleven. You were eleven.

A: Yes.

Q: Can you name them? From the first one to the youngest one?

A: The big one was Shprinz and then was Moishe, who lived here and died last year or two years ago. And after Moishe I had Ari, a brother, who never came back. And I was the fourth one. Shoshana and then Rachel, Leah, Hannah, Chaim, after my grandfather, and Genandel. I think I told you all.

Q: And it was a religious family?

A: Very religious, yes.

Q: Orthodox?

A: Orthodox. Everybody was orthodox there.

Q: Can you tell us what it meant, a religious house?

A: A religious house, what it meant. I never knew another one. I wouldn’t be able probably to make, you know…intership, I said it in Yiddish.

Q: What were the languages that you spoke at home?

A: We spoke Hungarian and Yiddish. It was very nice. We were a lot of children in the house. We were never lonely, you know. In that time wasn’t any toys. The children played with stones. Took off all the buttons and on buttons they played that time. And some children were going barefoot – they didn’t have even shoes because people were poor.

Q: So you said you spoke Yiddish and Hungarian at home. Outside of home you spoke Russian?

A: When we went shopping – I was going to come to that – after my father went to shul, there was by the shul a shuk, so he was shopping for the children for breakfast to bring home, you know, things to the breakfast – vegetables, fruits. And there you had to talk Russian. They were Russians mainly, not Jews.

Q: And we said at that time Chust was under Czechoslovakia. Was there any influence of the Czechs?

A: Of the Czechs?

Q: Because at that time it belonged to Czechoslovakia.

A: The Czechs were wonderful, gentle people.

Q: What was the contact with them?

A: I had the contact. I went to Czech school, I had a Czech teacher. I remember to this day the name. And they were very friendly with the Jews. They were not anti-Semites. The young people today in Praha are different, grown up.

Q: But in terms of language? You spoke with them in Russian or Hungarian?

A: No. We spoke Czech.

Q: You spoke Czech also?

A: Let me explain. There was Jewish school and the Jewish school went all Jews.

Q: It was an orthodox, religious orthodox?

A: All kinds of Jewish people.

Q: And there was no separation between boys and girls?

A: We were boys and girls together. But the Czechs were getting us a rabbi for once or twice a week to learn our language, Yiddish. They were very nice.

Q: So you went to school. Did the boys go to a cheder also?

A: Yes. My brothers went to cheder.

Q: What did they study there in the cheder?

A: They studied Torah.

Q: Torah. And they could.

A: They studied with my father at home. We were studying also.

Q: And the girls, they went to the Jewish school.

A: Yes. And also my father believed in it, that there came somebody to learn, a teacher, a very frum girl, Yiddish, and he sent me to that school too.

Q: You studied Yiddish?

A: Yes. But my uncle already was too religious. He didn’t want to send to goyishe school, and he didn’t want to send, not in the Yiddishe school.

Q: So we were talking about school. Can you describe where you went and what you studied at school?

A: Yes. Where we studied I couldn’t have too many grades because later they didn’t let Jews to go to school. We studied the language first. I remember this is the (?), this is the (?) – you know, they started the teaching in the first grade.

Q: It was in Russian? Czech?

A: No, Czech. The Czechs were there. It was – what was the name of the president? – Masaryk was then.

Q: So your first years you studied in Czech and you had Jewish studies.

A: It’s not the first year. It was five, six years.

Q: Elementary school. You were also studying Yiddish?

A: Yiddish also.

Q: Did you study also Hebrew?

A: No. I didn’t know a word. My father spoke.

Q: And the school was a Jewish school.

A: It was a Jewish school besides the Czech.

Q: So there were also Czech children?

A: Czech children no. There weren’t too many Czechs.

Q: So the children were only Jewish.

A: Only from Praha they came to teach, the teachers came to teach there.

Q: They came from Praha.

A: Yes, they came from there.

Q: But the children were all Jewish.

A: Jewish, yes.

Q: All religious?

A: They were mixed probably. Not everybody was very much religious. Depends what house they came.

Q: Can you tell us a little bit about the religious life that you lived at home?

A: The religious life was very nice.

Q: You celebrated the holidays?

A: We celebrated everything.

Q: Do you remember? Can you describe?

A: I can tell you that I remember before they took us away to the ghetto already, it was Pesach, because Succot we came. I had the yahrzeit…

Q: But I am talking about the early. We’ll get to the time of the ghetto, but I am talking about your childhood.

A: Yes, but I want to tell you something, that it was Seder night. The children were always tired. They would go to sleep and the Seder was so beautiful, the last one what I can remember. Every child was awake till the end. It never goes out of my mind, that Pesach. That was the last one we had.

Q: It was in your home?

A: In our home, always.

Q: With your grandparents?

A: No. Everybody was for theirselves, because everybody had big families. Yes. With my sister and the children. She lived with us.

Q: Do you remember other holidays in particular?

A: Other holidays? Yes. Everything. Shavuos. My father was in shul all night. And another thing. We had our own shul in the house for many years. Later was built a shul in and over. And he built that house when I was a little girl. I was eight years old, I think. And he built it, a bottom and a floor. We needed a lot of rooms. And my father was preparing two rooms for poor people, if they don’t have where to sleep, they should have a place to sleep. They came in for Shabbos, the poor people from the small…the Jews, and they went in the shul. My father, alav hashalom, brought home always three, four people, two people. He always shared with the poor people and gave them to sleep too.

Q: And then you went to the synagogue of the community?

A: I did, yes. Or we davened at home.

Q: Can you describe the synagogue?

A: The synagogue was full with people all the time and it was very, very lively. I couldn’t say that today is different. It’s approximately like today, you know. A synagogue is a synagogue all over. It doesn’t have to do with the time, that then was a different time and now is a different time. There was a cool (?). They had arat (?). You know cool means? The main place for the rabbanim and the mikve and for everything, you know? And this rabbi, who was less time, he wrote a Jewish book from…I’ve got one too. I read it.

Q: Do you remember his name? What was the name of the rabbi?

A: Waldman. And he became a big rav after the war, in New York. But he came back with two of his kids. His wife didn’t come back. He married somebody we know from Chust. But he was the rav there. I remember, like all over in shuls, you know, with respect, of course.

Q: It was, of course, an orthodox…

A: Like girls didn’t go out with boys. It was just people who weren’t religious. You know, there are all over some people who go out, but we…

Q: Can you describe Shabbat?

A: Shabbat was beautiful.

Q: What are your memories?

A: My memory is that we all helped. My father helped a lot. He made the cholent, I remember. And we prepared the table already, starting at noon to make it very nice. You know, for every child a place. Just then wasn’t frigidaires. There was a cellar where they put the “dan” (?). You know, I remembered just today that we wanted to have a cold watermelon. They put it in. We had a well in our place, but we didn’t drink that water. We brought from the neighbour’s, far, drinking water. And they put in a watermelon in a pail and they let it down to cool off in the well. Some things I could remember. Of course, toilets were outside. You know probably.

Q: Did you sing on Shabbat evening? Did you have songs?

A: My father sang with the three boys, the bigger boys.

Q: Do you remember?

A: Sure I remember.

Q: Can you sing?

A: I am at places and they sing the songs sometimes that my father used to sing. I remember them. Everybody had their own. You know.

Q: What about your bat mitzvah?

A: Whose bat mitzvah?

Q: Your bat mitzvah.

A: Who had bat mitzvoth? I don’t think you got from somebody bat mitzvah. A girl wasn’t important.

Q: But bar mitzvah was.

A: Bar mitzvah. What was a bar mitzvah, you think? They gave a kiddush Shabbos in the morning and that was it. They didn’t ask people to come together. Who wanted to come, they came to the shul.

Q: So you remember the bar mitzvah of your brothers?

A: Not really, because I was small then. I was younger than him. He was in ’22. I am three years younger than him. I wouldn’t remember. It is very simple.

Q: Were there other cultural things in the house? Was there a radio?

A: You got to a good point.

Q: Was there a newspaper? Did they read books or go to music…?

A: I read books, but they didn’t see me reading it.

Q: You had to hide it?

A: I sat a little longer in the toilet or someplace. I read books, yes.

Q: Which books were you reading?

A: I was reading Hungarian. I started reading and I was interested and since then…

Q: It was fiction? It was children’s books?

A: It was children’s book. It was Kurtzmahler, I remember. He was writing love books. We were interested to hear, you know.

Q: And where did you get the books?

A: There was in the family here and there a book. I don’t know from where I got it already.

Q: And your parents – did they read?

A: My father was reading a lot.

Q: What was he reading?

A: He was reading all the Jewish stories, and the children and his parents and my family all liked to sit around him Shabbos, after lunch, that my father should tell them stories. But the way he told stories nobody can. He was very talented in this and the children were asking for more and more. And he always had books to read, you know, and to tell, but it was everything what happened.

Q: Other cultural things? Music, theatre? Anything of that kind?

A: Music- at that time very seldom was music. But a radio nobody had. My father was not so much behind. It started the anti-Semitism and everything. He bought a radio. In our house was a radio. When the news was, he was always there and his friends and always more friends – they wanted to see what they hear, what the (?) says about…We weren’t sure – this was already a must. His father didn’t say anything. His father wouldn’t let him be…we lived, you know, together, in one court. So other than that, just the children were…the boys mainly, in the yeshivas. And there was different…every day, you know, there were people by most of the balbatim, we say, from the little towns came down and from all over. There was a yeshiva and they didn’t have what to eat. There, to eat Shabbat…and I remember we were having every day someone else. They got a day here, a day there, you know, and this is how they…the yeshiva couldn’t cook for them. They couldn’t afford them. I don’t know if you heard that.

Q: In Chust was very famous for its rabbinical traditions. There were Chassidic dynasties – “Maramchic” (?) and Rabbi Greenwald.

A: There were much bigger rabbis than Rabbi Greenwald. There was Duchinsky, who came out in the ‘30s. I was a little girl. He came to Israel. He survived. And “Ricky Suboysim” (?) is there. Ricky Suboysim is a very famous rabbi. And since I was in Hungary I found out that there were in that vicinity a lot of tzaddikim – Reb Shayele (?), you know, and many other places I wouldn’t remember. My husband, Peter, came special to go to their kevers for their yarhzeit.

Q: Was your father associated with any of the Chassidic groups?

A: Oh yes.

Q: Which one?

A: Let me tell you. When we grew up my father was a Satmar chassid. He was his best talmid – that is what he said to my sister in New York. She was sick. She went to him. And everybody had a lot of children. Each time a rabbi came for Shabbat, they were in a barn, doesn’t matter where the rabbi was sitting, everybody went there. Most of the time, I remember my father going away for Shabbos…

Q: Went to the rabbi?

A: Yes. Each time he came back, sometimes there was another baby. He wasn’t even there with the baby. The rabbis were so important that they were eating from a barrel whatever they could and the way they could, but the rabbi was very important to go for them.

Q: So he was connected with the Satmar.

A: He was a Satmar, yes. He was a good man. He was a very good man.

Q: Can you tell me more about the Jewish community in Chust?

A: There wasn’t much because when it came in the evening, and there wasn’t chashmal (electricity), I think, in that time, or maybe we had already by the end. With lamps. And people went early to sleep. They didn’t go out. But when I was bigger already, we went out every evening, l’tiyel with chaverot (to walk with friends), and the stores, the candy stores were open.

Q: Just in the Jewish neighbourhood, or in the city in general?

A: I was living in the city. I was two minutes from the city. We were right there. And people went out and met people, especially friends, chaverot. And there was a certain time when we came back because we couldn’t be out too late.

Q: And there was no contact with non-Jewish people in the city?

A: No. Not at all. There was a cloister and there were goyim who were going, but I really don’t know where they lived. In different places. They came to the cloisters.

Q: But was there anti-Semitism?

A: Well, the anti-Semitism mainly…I hated Budapest. Everybody was anti-Semitic there.

Q: You used to go to Budapest?

A: I went to Hungary to my mother’s family.

Q: You went on vacation there? To Budapest?

A: There weren’t vacations. There were certain times when you had go, you went, you know.

Q: So as a child you went to your mother’s family in Hungary?

A: No. I don’t remember. But when I was bigger already, I went there.

Q: How old?

A: I was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen. My father couldn’t go already. He did business. Let’s say he had trucks. He went to Hungary and took wood from Carpathia. The wood they sold on scale – you wouldn’t believe it, but on scale. And he brought from there back cucoritz (corn), you know, corn. And corn was a big deal. It was war, you know. People were buying. He made very good business before…

Q: We will talk about the war, but before that, you said that when you went to Hungary you encountered anti-Semitism. In Chust you didn’t encounter anti-Semitism?

A: No, because we were between Jews. Between Jews. And the Czechs weren’t…We were really Czechs.

Q: But when you went to your mother’s family in Budapest and in Hungary you felt the anti-Semitism.

A: Well, I didn’t feel exactly because they knew my family very well and the goyim, the neighbours, were good, you know. But the best one wasn’t good. They waited the Jews should go and they should take away everything. My aunt had to run away because they didn’t let out, you know. They gave sleeping pill for the baby and I was living there. The minute they left, they took away everything from the house.

Q: Was there any difference you and Jews you met in Hungary, or you felt it was the same?

A: Yes, a big difference. The Jews there were different. They were very jealous of the Jews from the whole world. They had the chance to go away. They didn’t. And they live very, very behind now.

Q: No. I am asking, when you met the Jews in Hungary, from your mother’s side, was there any difference between you and them, you coming from Chust, they are from Budapest? Or you would say it was the same style of living, same orthodox Jews?

A: Yes. They took the orthodox religion, okay, but I had an aunt – she was like a mother. We never thought of that even. Now that you ask me.

Q: Did you know about the Neologues in Hungary? The Reform Jews? Did you know about that?

A: I found out the first time when we came to Leipzig to come to Israel, that there was a Neologue shul. I never was in a shul. It was so funny for me, men and women together and everything. Never.

Q: When you were young you never heard about it?

A: Never heard about it. I didn’t know that there existed something like that.

Q: And you said that your father was associated with the Satmar Chassidim. So he was anti-Zionist, would you say?

A: No.

Q: No. Because the Satmar weren’t anti-Zionist.

A: My grandfather, you are saying?

Q: Your father or your grandfather. What was their attitude? Did you know about Zionism?

A: Well, I didn’t know really Zionism, but I knew when the rabbi came to the city, I was talking who stayed alive – he had a lot of negadim. Neged. They were singing on the streets. An uncle of mine was involved. (Yiddish) They didn’t want them. They sold them to Chust for a hundred thousand dollars and he stayed there. And my father, when he gave them sholem, he was a sholem person. He was a such a good-natured…He wasn’t like, you know. He understood sholem, and this is what I saw at home.

Q: And what was the attitude towards Eretz Yisrael? Did you know, as a child…?

A: They didn’t talk about Eretz Yisrael because they could never afford it, with so many children, to go out. This is one thing. And then, when it was the war, the Jews were thinking things which it would never come true. They told that they are taking us to Russia. Russia…(?)

Q: When you grew up, did you know more about the Zionist movement?

A: No, I didn’t know anything.

Q: And there was no talk about it?

A: No, there wasn’t. We didn’t learn about things like that. There wasn’t any education. I don’t remember.

Q: But there was no talk about it at home? Between the parents.

A: No, we didn’t know what Zionism was at all.

Q: And in 1933, in Germany, Hitler came to power, the Nazis took over. Did you hear about it?

A: Yes, of course. Everybody was worried.

Q: What did you hear? What did you know? What did you understand about what was going on?

A: Nobody knew that they were taking us to a crematorium.

Q: I am talking about 1933. What did you know about the Nazis?

A: Nothing.

Q: Any idea of their ideology, of the policy they were starting to rise?

A: No, no. It came later, in 1933, right away he went with the Jews, I think. I read a book, and he was against the Jews right away. He was a no goodnik”.

Q: You heard about it?

A: What?

Q: About Hitler?

A: About Hitler, yes.

Q: At that stage, I mean. When he came into power.

A: Sure, sure. My father was watching, hearing the radio all the time. The news we heard, just we didn’t know what’s the truth. You know? The Jews didn't think that such a horrible thing is waiting for them.

Q: Did you know anything what was going with the Jews in Germany at that time?

A: We didn't know even that they took the Jews away and the Polish away. They were already five years. When we came Auschwitz they were angry at us because they were taken before.

Q: So you heard on the news, on the radio, Hitler, Germany, but then in '39 the war broke out. You remember that day, when you heard about..?

A: I remember that Chust was changing a few times. The Hungarians came in later. There were Czechs, there were from other countries people, and there was the ones who are now there.

Q: The Ukrainians?

A: The Ukrainians. And they were fighting with each other. They fought in our backyard, someplace, they fought in others. But it was very short.

Q: So life became very shaky.

A: It was shaky, very shaky, yes. But they didn't touch the civilian people.

Q: We will come to the change with the Hungarians coming in, but before that, when you heard about world war, Hitler invading Poland, 1939 – did you hear about it?

A: We were so naïve brought up. The children, I don't think they knew even what's going on.

Q: You were, like, fourteen at that time.

A: I was fourteen, thirteen.

Q: So you heard that war broke out, but it didn't have any meaning for you.

A: No, it didn't have any meaning. We were afraid to go out already.

Q: And Hungarians took over.

A: Hungarians, when they came in I remember very well.

Q: Can you describe that?

A: Because when the Hungarians came in, we had this restaurant across the street. She received all the chayalim and gave them food for nothing.

Q: So that day that they came in, you saw Hungarian soldiers marching in? How was it? How did you know that the Hungarians were taking over?

A: All the Hungarians were very happy.

Q: But you saw the army coming in?

A: Yes, sure. It was right by our house. They came all there. We were in the main city, in the main city, and we could go out. They weren't dangerous or something. This came later. It came later, five years later.

Q: Okay, so when they came in, this was like March 1939. You went on with your life, the daily life, what you had?

A: Yes, like we could. What we couldn't, we couldn't do. I think the schools…

Q: You kept going to school?

A: I don't remember that we went to school by the Hungarians. I remember only by the Czechs and the Russians, the Ukrainians had the school.

Q: But when the Hungarians came you don't remember going to school?

A: I don't remember.

Q: Did you go to the makolet, to the grocery store?

A: Grocery was right outside.

Q: But you worked there?

A: No, I didn't work. They had everything in sacks. You had to weigh, you know, in a paper bag, everything.

Q: So what happened once the Hungarians came? What was the chance? Can you describe what?

A: I couldn’t really describe. I didn't pay attention for that, that I will ever need to use it, to talk about it.

Q: What did you know about the Hungarians?

A: I knew about the Hungarians that my mother was a Hungarian and I will be able to go without the passeporte. I didn't know anything else. So I really don't remember, but the Hungarians were the ones who gave us out by the end.

Q: But before that, in Hungary, at least in Hungary, there were certain changes in the attitude towards Jews. There were limitations, they cancelled…they had rules limiting the Jews.

A: They limited, yes.

Q: Did you feel that too, the laws?

A: We started to feel already when they wanted the men to shave the beards and to wear, you know…Men didn't go out on the streets already.

Q: Also your father and brothers had to shave their beards?

A: Yes. My brother didn't have a beard. He was young. My father.

Q: He had to shave his beard?

A: Yes. Everybody had to. They made to shave.

Q: What else?

A: They made fun of the people. They did a special…when they took us out to Auschwitz…

Q: Before that. I am talking about the first years. Until Auschwitz there were about five years with the Hungarians. They came in '39. You went in '44. I am trying to find out about that period of five years when the Hungarians were ruling in Chust.

A: Well, we were living for awhile with them. For example, I remember if somebody had opened a store after one o'clock, they gave them a ticket. You know? They had their own rules.

Q: There were no special rules, you didn't feel special rules for the Jews?

A: Not so early when they came in. I think later. I'm not so sure. I don't want to say something.

Q: Do you remember anything of the rule that talked about men having to serve in the labour force, in the Hungarian labour force?

A: Of course. My whole family was taken. My sister’s husband, my whole uncle’s…

Q: Where they taken? What did you know about it?

A: They were taken to work – zungarbeit. You know what it is. Okay. Whatever they wanted. The gave them to make holes and to close them, or who knows what.

Q: Did they take them away, or they worked…?

A: They took them away from home.

Q: What did you know about it? Did you have contact with them?

A: No, we didn’t have…The ones which were closed – we heard about them.

Q: This was also your brothers, or only husbands…?

A: It was my uncle, my mother’s brothers. One of the brothers was taken away and they put them together in a shul, all of them, which they had, and they burned down the whole shul, with the people, together. We found it out before we went.

Q: Who went to the labour force?

A: To the labour…? Everybody.

Q: Your brothers also?

A: My brother ran away to Budapest. He was hidden in Budapest.

Q: And what did you know about these labour forces?

A: They did everything with them, whatever they wanted.

Q: And did you feel a change economically?

A: Very much.

Q: Tell us about it.

A: You couldn’t get like kemach (flour). It was always less and less. My father brought in…

Q: But the grocery kept working?

A: The grocery kept working, but there wasn’t bread. People were eating bread from “lenche” – the yellow and the green. They were grinding them, making it…not cucoritz. Cucoritz also. And they were making bread. And a lot of people died those days. They just fell down and they died, and they said it was from this bread, what they made from the…I forgot the name. That’s the problem.

Q: But at home, did you feel…?

A: I didn’t feel. My father always provided for us. He was a very good businessman.

Q: And during that time, the war continued in the world. What did you know about what was going on?

A: Nothing.

Q: You didn’t know about what was happening with the Jews in Europe – in Poland, in Germany, in Holland?

A: Nothing. We found out in Auschwitz everything.

Q: Before that you didn’t know?

A: No.

Q: Did you, at this time, still have contact, did you go to Budapest during those years?

A: When?

Q: In 1940, ’41, 42.

A: Yes, I was. I was there, I came back. I brought things with me, or I went with an auto. You know what I noticed? That they went after the “ichus” (יחוס), rich people. There was a hotel. They took out the people from the hotel, they put them on a wagon, they took them away. They never saw them again. They took away the hotel. The rich people, the rich houses – they went and took away. One rich lady – Cahan was her name – she said, “Come and take whatever you want.”

Q: Did they take from you also, from your family?

A: From my family, I don’t remember that they would be involved because they were looking for the real...for the lawyers, the doctors. You know. And the big businessmen. My family went away straight to the ghetto from the home.

Q: We’ll talk about it. But before that, did they take any money, jewellery? Anything?

A: Not from us. There was somebody – Moskov was his name. A lawyer. – And they dealt and they asked for money. They asked for millions, and it was his job to get the money. You know? If not, they were talking that they would kill him.

Q: Was there any Jewish leadership in the town, in Chust?

A: Yes, it was a kehilla.

Q: What can you tell us about that?

A: Well, I just know that he was the main after the rabbi.

Q: What was his name?

A: Davidovich, I remember.

Q: The main rabbi was Gruenwald? The chief rabbi of Chust was Gruenwald?

A: Gruenwald was the last one.

Q: And this man was the leader of the Jewish community?

A: He was the leader of the Jewish community.

Q: Again, what was his name?

A: Davidovich. He was a very rich man, but he was – I don’t know how they said that in Yiddish – that he was after the rabbi the unfuhrer there.

Q: And what did they do, the leadership?

A: They had to pay always money. They asked. Whatever they asked, they had to pay for them. They couldn’t go to the poor people to ask.

Q: But your everyday life continued. You were able to maintain your religious life. You went to shul. Holidays during this period.

A: Yes, till the last minute.

Q: Until the last minute life went on.

A: Life went on the way it went on. You know? It wasn’t a free life.

Q: And all this time you really don’t have any information of what is going on in the world?

A: No.

Q: The Jews in Poland or the Jews in…with Hitler?

A: No, I don’t remember. We weren’t involved kids. I don’t know if my parents knew. I don’t know. They just listened. I don’t know to what station.

Q: But you said you don’t remember going to school at that time.

A: To school I went till they let us go to school and then that was it. The Hungarian school I didn’t go after the…Czech.

Q: So you sat at home all the time?

A: Everybody was home.

Q: Do you remember what you did all that time, sitting at home?

A: Well, there was nothing else to do. They made us do it.

Q: Yes, but what did you do at home? Were you studying among yourselves? Do you remember anything?

A: Nobody had in mind studying then. I don’t think so. Nobody knew what was going to happen.

Q: They wouldn’t let also the boys study?

A: The boys studied all the time.

Q: In the yeshiva? They continued?

A: I don’t know the yeshiva or my father did. Both. It was very close anyway, the temple.

Q: And then in 1944 the Germans conquered Hungary.

A: Yes, but the Hungarians did the job.

Q: What happened, and when?

A: I remember that all of us were in the house with closed doors. And one chayal (soldier) came and ran into my cousins’, knocked in the door. And they were screaming. They were afraid of him. And then he wanted to scare the Jews. He was an anti-Semite. And then when he was gone – they didn’t let him in – we were complaining to somebody Hungarian bigger than him. They said that he was drunk. The Hungarian liked to drink. He didn’t know what he was doing. That was all. So what was on the streets, I don’t know. It was a very hard time. People were afraid were to get out, especially the Hungarians already were there a few years, and they were already told. They knew more than we did.

Q: So what happened?

A: It didn’t happen anything afterwards. It was before the ghetto.

Q: So tell us what happened. You said the soldier came and you complained.

A: We complained. We went out on the street and complained.

Q: And then what happened?

A: He said he was shikor (drunk).

Q: Okay. So the next step was what?

A: It was nothing.

Q: Nothing. So then we get to a point where you have to leave your house.

A: When we had to leave the house, it came the Hungarian police and took us out by force.

Q: So let’s talk about that. When did this happen, and how?

A: I wouldn’t remember really the time. Maybe you know. It was after Pesach, I think. Pesach we were home.

Q: You were still home. So this was after Pesach. You got a notice in advance, or they knocked on the door one day? How did it happen?

A: The mishtara (police) came and they told us, “Pack yourselves”. And that’s it.

Q: They knocked on the door…

A: To take us away to our ghetto.

Q: And what did they tell you when they knocked on the door?

A: I don’t remember what they said, what they were told to say.

Q: They gave you time? They said, “You have one hour to organize yourselves”?

A: They took us right away. We didn’t have time to take, you know, a few things.

Q: You had no idea this was going to happen?

A: No.

Q: That they were going to expel you from the house?

A: No, we didn’t know.

Q: So they came. How many were there? Do you remember?

A: I don’t remember. There were three families in our place, so that happened to me.

Q: Your whole family, your parents and the eleven children were there?

A: Yes.

Q: And the police came. They came with cars, with what?

A: No, we had to walk just in the neighbourhood, to the next street.

Q: And they were telling you what?

A: Nothing. They took away a whole neighbourhood.

Q: Did you have time to take things with you?

A: Very little.

Q: Do you remember what you took?

A: I don’t remember. I remember that I had a blouse I gave to a friend of mine because she said she didn’t have. They didn’t have time.

Q: Do you remember your parents packing things? Food, clothes, anything?

A: Honey, everybody got in the hand whatever they could. Whatever they could. Everything was left there. You know? Nothing. They didn’t give us a chance.

Q: It was in morning, evening? Do you remember?

A: Well, I wouldn’t remember. Probably during the day.

Q: During the day. And they made you, they forced you out? And you had no idea where you were going. What did they tell you? That you are going where?

A: Then they took us to the ghetto.

Q: They told you, you are going to have to leave the house, going where? To a camp? Do you remember what they said?

A: I wouldn’t remember. I wouldn’t say. What did other people say? I don’t know.

Q: So you didn’t know. So they walked you…

A: We didn’t know where we go.

Q: And you walked for how long?

A: It’s only ten minutes. It’s right in the neighbourhood. My neighbourhood they emptied and they went around…

Q: So you came to a different house?

A: A house that had probably, I don’t know how many rooms. In every room they put…We were in the kitchen, on the floor. The whole family.

Q: Thirteen people?

A: The whole family was in the kitchen on the floor.

Q: And the family who lived there before was also there?

A: Was in one room.

Q: You grandparents were with you too?

A: No, not in this. They took them separate.

Q: Okay. So you all went into the kitchen, and then what happened?

A: To the kitchen. There we were making the floor ready for everybody to sleep. In the kitchen. That’s it. That’s what it was. And I was helping to cook in the ghetto. We made a potato soup every day.

Q: When you left your home, you locked it, or you just went out? That’s it.

A: They took away everything.

Q: So you started to organize your life in this place, in the ghetto.

A: We organized to make place to sleep.

Q: And what happened the next day? How did you get food? What did your father do?

A: Well, my father couldn’t do anything. He would never go out anymore. But there were potatoes and, you know…

Q: From where? Do you know who supplied it?

A: We didn’t bring it, so the Hungarians brought it there.

Q: And over there, in the ghetto…

A: There were a lot of houses full with people. We were together.

Q: Okay. You saw all the Jewish families?

A: Yes. Because it was a geder (fence) in that place, around and around a geder, and this is the section where we could walk.

Q: So there was a fence?

A: Yes.

Q: And you couldn’t go out, or you could out?

A: No, we couldn’t go out. There was a shomer (guard). Shomer by the door.

Q: And in one of the houses there was a kitchen?

A: This is the kitchen, yes.

Q: And you went to work there?

A: I was doing the cooking in the…

Q: With whom? With your mother?

A: No, outside. It was like a “berl”, a big one. Who wanted the soup, had.

Q: You went yourself, or with your mother or sisters?

A: We could go all of them. This is an open place where they closed us in.

Q: But you were the only one who went to cook there, or…?

A: Yes. I was the only one from the family. It doesn’t matter, the cooking. We were together. Like we are here together. There was a place.

Q: At what point, or did you have to wear the Jewish yellow star?

A: I don’t think I got there to wear the Jewish star. Who went out only needed to wear it.

Q: You had it, the Jewish star?

A: No. I never went out with the Jewish star.

Q: You didn’t have to wear it.

A: No. I had to, but we didn’t go out. We were already inside.

Q: But this was all run by the Hungarians. At this point you didn’t see any Germans.

A: No, the Germans were in Budapest. They were in the main city.

Q: Did they tell you why they were putting you in the ghetto? What is going to happen? What was their plan?

A: They wouldn’t tell us stories. No.

Q: So you didn’t know. Rumours?

A: No.

Q: You didn’t know what was going on. Do you remember anything? What were the conversations? What were the thoughts?

A: Not the conversations. I remember that they came to take us and we had to go. We had no other way.

Q: Yes, but how long did you stay in the ghetto?

A: A couple of months.

Q: So what were the thoughts of your parents? What did they think was going to happen? At this point they still didn’t know…

A: Let me tell you. Nobody talked anything. They had nothing to talk. Nobody knew what was going to happen.

Q: And they had no information of what was going on with Jews in other places?

A: Nothing. There was no connection.

Q: Was there a Jewish council, a Judenrat in the ghetto? Was there a Jewish police or committee that was running the ghetto? Like in other places? A Judenrat?

A: Maybe. Maybe there was. I wouldn’t remember who. Usually they did. Even in Auschwitz.

Q: Yes, there in Chust, in the ghetto. Do you remember?

A: I don’t remember if there was somebody. Probably was, probably was.

Q: What else can you tell us about that period in the ghetto?

A: What can I tell you? It was terrible. It was terrible. People couldn’t eat what they wanted to eat. They brought in…Some people they sent out shopping, I think.

Q: You were hungry?

A: No. I couldn’t recall that I was hungry. We probably brought some food with us. I don’t remember what. But there wasn’t enough, you know.

Q: There wasn’t enough.

A: People didn’t have food already before they were taken to the ghetto. Who had money could buy something. You know. Schwartz. That’s it. The black shuk. Yes. (end of side)

Q: Do you remember what happened with the little children?

A: They were crying. You know, they hadn’t been comfortable. We had all eight children – little ones and bigger ones. And there were two grandchildren with us, with my sister. It was a very hard time for everybody.

Q: Your grandparents were with you?

A: I think that they took them in another ghetto. They made more ghettoes.

Q: There were a few ghettoes.

A: They took the big families first.

Q: There were sick people? You got medicine? Who took care of them?

A: There was no medicine, nothing. You know, the doctors didn’t know much then. They didn’t know. Somebody died, they thought something happened to him and that’s it. They didn’t know from what. They never checked him.

Q: There was no clinic or any medical…

A: No.

Q: You don’t remember.

A: I have to tell you one thing. My little sister was very sick.

Q: How old was she?

A: She was a few years old. Not much – two, three. The baby. And she felt that she is stuck in her throat. She had a lot of “shlime”. We called out the best doctor. He said he couldn’t help. “There is no help for her. She is going to die.” My father was a big talmid chocham. He took his two fingers, he stuck it in, schlepped out the “shlime” and the baby was alive in Auschwitz.

Q: This was in the ghetto?

A: This was before the ghetto, because we could call a doctor then.

Q: But during the ghetto, do you remember if there was any kind of…?

A: My mother had blood pressure, okay? All I remember – the whole family said, “Esther is very sick. She is so sick and so sick”. Once a week, every Thursday, the doctor came out and took out from her a glass of blood, and that was her help. Every week. There was no medicine. So I think this explains to you.

Q: Were there any attempts to escape from the ghetto?

A: Some people escaped – I don’t know – my cousins, some of cousins, my brother. But they escaped before they went to ghetto. It was Pesach and she was eating matza in the train and they took her out. That’s what she said, because she survived. She is not alive now.

Q: And the people who escaped – where did they escape to?

A: A lot of people were in Budapest.

Q: They escaped to Budapest.

A: Yes, a lot of people stayed alive.

Q: But from the ghetto itself, were there attempts to escape?

A: I don’t think so. I don’t think so. Only who went to Auschwitz, and they put them on the train. Like me.

Q: And then, were there physical punishments at that time?

A: No, they didn’t do it.

Q: They didn’t do anything, the Hungarians.

A: No.

Q: They just put you in the ghetto, but there wasn’t… Were they still taking young men to labour?

A: There were no young men anymore. They took them before. For years back already.

Q: But your brothers were…?

A: My brother, he ran away to…and he hid himself.

Q: You had only one brother out of the eleven?

A: I had two brothers. Both of them. One of them, he, I didn’t know what happened to him, to one. He died.

Q: They took him to work?

A: Yes.

Q: At what stage?

A: I don’t think they took him to work. No. They didn’t take my brothers to work because they ran away from home.

Q: They ran away?

A: Yes. They ran away. They went to Budapest.

Q: Before you went to the ghetto?

A: Yes.

Q: You had no contact with them at this point?

A: No.

Q: So they went to Budapest and actually your parents were with the girls.

A: There was a little boy, Chaim. There was.

Q: With the little boy in the ghetto. But the older brothers, they ran away.

A: Yes.

Q: And you never heard from them again. There was no…

A: I heard from them. Two brothers came back.

Q: Yes, but I mean when you went to the ghetto, after.

A: Only after the war.

Q: For the whole time you didn’t know what was happening with them?

A: By the Jewish Agency in Budapest. Everybody found out.

Q: So this went on in the ghetto a few more months, yes?

A: Yes.

Q: Anything else that you want to tell?

A: Ghetto was nothing happening. People were upset. There was nothing…there couldn’t happen anything. I don’t know what other people said. Could be a different ghetto.

Q: You just lived there. Nothing was happening.

A: We were still living there. That’s all. Nobody knew what to expect. And then one day they came and took us to the railroad.

Q: What did they say? How did this happen? Was it Hungarian soldiers who came? Police?

A: Hungarian police and soldiers, yes.

Q: They came.

A: Yes.

Q: What did they tell you?

A: They told, “Get out, all of you”. “On the street, stand in line”. Whatever they did. And they were walking us to the train station. It’s pretty far we had to walk.

Q: How far?

A: It was far, the train station. I don’t know. With an agala (cart) half an hour or more.

Q: You were walking?

A: Everybody was walking.

Q: Did they say where you were going to? Did they give you any explanation?

A: I don’t think so. Nobody would ask them even.

Q: They didn’t say. Because in other places, sometimes, they were telling people they were going to work.

A: They took you to work probably. That’s what they said.

Q: Here they told you that they were going to take you to work? You don’t remember.

A: They said probably, yes. Yes.

Q: So you got to the train station.

A: So we knew that we were going to go in the train.

Q: But you had no idea where you were going to?

A: No.

Q: You didn’t hear about the death camps or anything at that time?

A: No. When we came to the train station there was a woman who was by birth – what is it called? A woman who was by the birth, with babies. There is a name for it.

Q: Labour. She was in labour?

A: She was helping bringing babies on the road.

Q: Oh, I understand what you are saying.

A: They put here there by the train station outside, full with chayalim. And she had a table. And every woman had to lay on the table and wants to go inside, to see if they don’t take out anything. In front of the…

Q: She was what? Hungarian?

A: She was the “hyband”, they called it.

Q: She was Hungarian?

A: She was from Chust probably. Probably Hungarian. Not Jewish. And she was doing fun of people, in front of people. And everybody had to lay down on the table and she had to check.

Q: All the women?

A: The women, yes.

Q: What was she checking?

A: She was checking that they don’t put in there some valuables.

Q: If they weren’t hiding anything.

A: Yes, valuables. They could check me. Most of the people were virgins. You know.

Q: And this was open in the air. Everyone could see.

A: Open in the air. And there was in Hungary from my family – my whole family, I had a lot of family there. They took together all the Jews, with the children, with the frummer, with the women, and told them to take off all the clothes. To make fun of the Jews in front of their children, of the grandchildren, of everybody.

Q: Did they tell you also to take off all your clothes?

A: No.

Q: She just checked that you weren’t hiding any jewellery or money or anything.

A: Yes, but we went already when it was almost after the war a year, you know? We had it a little bit easier already. They had plenty corbonos (victims) before us.

Q: But with the check-up – did you see if she ever found anything?

A: I didn’t see, no. They didn’t find anything.

Q: Was it painful? Because you really had to…

A: No, it wasn’t painful because she tried to go in. She saw somebody’s closed and that’s it.

Q: Did they also check the men specially?

A: No.

Q: Just women. They were checking the women. What happened after that? You went through this checking…

A: They took us to the train and they put us in, eighty people in a train.

Q: What kind of a train was it?

A: It was an animal train. Where animals used to go. You know? Freight. Only freight. And there was hardly place to sit down.

Q: You were with your parents and sisters?

A: Yes.

Q: You were all together?

A: Whole family. And all the rest of the people.

Q: In the same train. Eighty people.

A: Eight people.

Q: It was all closed? No window?

A: There were little windows. Somebody made pee-pee. They tried to open, to throw it out, but can you imagine two days in a train like that? You know? I remember I needed so much and I wouldn’t want to. You know? In front of people? It was terrible.

Q: So the door was shut and the train moved.

A: They shut it outside with a lock.

Q: And you still had no idea where you were going to?

A: No.

Q: What were people talking in the train?

A: They couldn’t talk anything. Who knew? They took us like chayales (animals). Nobody had what to say. Nobody knew what to say.

Q: Did you manage to take with you from the ghetto any things?

A: Some food or something. When we arrived to Auschwitz, if you want to be there already, so there were Jewish boys working on the trains, to take off the people, and they said, “Leave everything there”. Everything we had to leave in there.

Q: So the trip took two days?

A: Yes. Took two days.

Q: You were standing, you were sitting?

A: Whatever we could. Not laying. There was no place.

Q: And then you arrived. You knew where you arrived. You get to a place…

A: We never knew there existed an Auschwitz.

Q: Were there any stops on the way?

A: No.

Q: Nothing. Direct.

A: Yes.

Q: So you get to a point where the train stops. What happened then?

A: When the train stopped they took us off. The Jewish boys told us, told me, “Don’t go. Don’t take a baby in the hand”.

Q: Who opened the doors? Were there German soldiers?

A: The Jews did all the work in Auschwitz. They did in the crematorium too.

Q: Yes, but you saw, when they opened the doors, you saw no German soldiers?

A: There were. Mengele was there. Mengele was waiting for us.

Q: For the selection.

A: Yes. We came out.

Q: So they forced you out, the Jewish, and they told you, “Get off”. This was on the ramp, the famous ramp in Auschwitz?

A: Yes.

Q: You got off. And what happened?

A: We got off and Mengele was there and started selecting the people – “You go right and you go left”. “You go right and you go left.” And that’s it. Who went left, didn’t go straight to the crematorium. And everybody else went to the crematorium – the little children, the older people.

Q: Did you know who he was? Today you say Dr. Mengele. Did you know then who this man was?

A: Yes, because he saw us many times.

Q: No. The minute you went off the train you didn’t know who he was.

A: No, I didn’t know that he was Mengele, but afterwards we knew already. By the second time.

Q: You remember him? Can you describe him?

A: Well, he was very calm. He was doing his job very good. He was a “no-goodnik”.

Q: He was giving orders in German? Could you understand what he was saying?

A: Yes. German I understood.

Q: You understood, from the Yiddish.

A: Sure, sure.

Q: Did you know any idea why he was saying, telling some people to go to the right, some people to the left?

A: No, we found out inside, when we met with other people.

Q: At that point you just heard the commands, to the right or left.

A: Right.

Q: What happened to your family? Who went right, who went left?

A: My family, who had all children and everything, went there.

Q: Went to which side?

A: To the right side. And here he took out the younger people, in case he didn’t need to work or something.

Q: Who did he take? He took you? Mengele.

A: He said, “You go here”.

Q: Left.

A: Yes. He said, “You go there”.

Q: And who else was with you, after the separation?

A: Other girls. Other girls.

Q: But from your family?

A: From my family nobody was there with me. I was alone. Then I was alone. But I met in Auschwitz then with my cousins.

Q: None of your sisters, your parents.

A: Oh, with one sister of mine.

Q: One sister.

A: Yes, one sister.

Q: What was her name?

A: Shoshana.

Q: So how old were you then?

A: Nineteen.

Q: And how old was she? Shoshana?

A: She was three years younger.

Q: So she was sixteen. So only the two of you out of the whole family chosen by Mengele to stay. The rest?

A: The rest of them went to…

Q: So this is the moment when you were separated. You never saw them again.

A: Never. Never. Never the ones which went in the other side.

Q: This was your parents and about…

A: And seven children.

Q: And at that point you had no idea that you would not see them again. Or did you feel it?

A: No, no.

Q: Did you feel something, at this special moment?

A: No, nothing. We were frozen. We didn’t know anything.

Q: Before we continue, do you want to tell us maybe, because this is the point where you lost your parents and family, something more about your father or your mother? About their personalities. Did you want to add something?

A: well, their personalities, we were used to it. What do you mean?

Q: I mean, do you have any special memories that you want to share with us about your parents or your sisters, brothers?

A: We loved them very much. And we were very together all the time. Everybody would wish anybody, you know? I remember that once I went to Hungary, was for Shabbos. I was so anxious to come back. I wanted to be with my family. But you are still outside. I’ll tell you inside what I felt about my parents. You want me to say it now? When we came into Auschwitz they took us, as you know, to a shower. Everybody would take shower, they take off the clothes. And then men would cut the hair from all over. You know that. And somebody had things in the pockets, everything left there. They gave us a shmatta.

Q: So after Mengele…they took you to the shower?

A: Yes.

Q: At that point they took you?

A: Yes. And when we came in to the camp, everybody looked at everybody. Nobody recognized nobody. The hair was off. They gave me an old dress, which I cut off the bottom to put on my head. You know? And we felt right away that…

Q: When you went to the shower it was only with you people who came from Chust?

A: Yes. All these people. All that group.

Q: There were no other groups.

A: No. They were taken to give gas. And here they gave really the shower.

Q: Okay. So you went to the shower.

A: Then they put us in the camp.

Q: Where?

A: In Auschwitz camp.

Q: In Birkenau?

A: Birkenau, probably.

Q: Do you remember what block?

A: I remember one block, where I went to work in the kitchen, was No. 2., but before then, when I was new, when I came in, we felt the flesh. The smell of the people – it has such a different smell. And we saw that fire and we found out already that they burned everybody.

Q: But before that, they put you in one of the blocks.

A: Yes.

Q: Can you describe how it looked? How did the place look? What did you see physically?

A: They put us on one of these beds, what you saw. Wooden. Thirteen people we were on this bed. Nothing there was…(not clear)

Q: And in the block there were other people?

A: One thousand people in one block. It is a big…there were a few lines.

Q: So you came there the first day. Let’s talk about the first day. Who did you meet in the block? Were you able to talk to the other people?

A: They were giving us the piece of bread, I remember, and everything. But we weren’t hungry yet so much. We wouldn’t take it. And other hungry people went and took it. When we started being hungry, I didn’t have what to eat.

Q: How did they look, the people who were there already? You came, you were new. There were other prisoners there.

A: Some of them were very bad. They said, “You came now. I am here the blockaelteste”.

Q: Where were they from? They were women, only women? It was only women?

A: Yes. One of them was a big rabbi’s daughter. Mackover (?) rabbi’s daughter, and she was bad. She was hitting us. She was very bad. She was already wild, like an animal, there.

Q: The women who were there – where were they from?

A: They were Slovaks.

Q: Jews from Slovakia.

A: Form Slovakia.

Q: How long were they there already?

A: They were already five years, they said.

Q: They were five years when you came.

A: All their family was gone, everything, but they were the blockaeltestes.

Q: They were probably less because you came in ’44 and they built Auschwitz in ’41, ’42.

A: Whatever. But they had it hard. They took them right away. I understand that, but she was hitting us. She was telling us, “While I was here, you were fressing at home. Eating.” And they didn’t have anything. They were very rough.

Q: So the first night – can you describe the first night?

A: The first night I could describe was like the last night. The same night. It was nothing new.

Q: But it was new for you in Auschwitz.

A: Yes. It was new for me.

Q: And you were all of a sudden separated from your parents and family. What were you thinking?

A: Believe me, that we didn’t think of anything. We were frozen. We didn’t know that my parents went to fire. We didn’t know anything.

Q: Your sister was with you all the time?

A: She was with me all the time. I saved her.

Q: You were one next to the other?

A: I saved her.

Q: You slept one next to the other.

A: One another.

Q: They didn’t separate you in the block or anything. You were together.

A: Together in the block, on the wooden bed. So when it was lunchtime…

Q: What language did you speak with the women prisoners, the Jewish women from Slovkia? Yiddish?

A: Well, we spoke Yiddish, Hungarian and Yiddish. They spoke Hungarian.

Q: Amongst yourselves you spoke Hungarian.

A: Yes. A lot of Hungarian.

Q: And what happened the next day?

A: I just wanted to explain to you – you probably heard already. When they brought the lunch, they had one pot, a little pot, for thirteen people.

Q: Soup?

A: Everybody got one sip and gave it further. It came around. Maybe two, three sips you had. This was your lunch.

Q: It was soup?

A: Soup, yes. Later I was working in the kitchen. I was doing the soups.

Q: So you were there in this barrack, and what happened then?

A: It happened that I felt the fire. I didn’t tell you about my parents. And everything. And I knew already that my parents were not alive. They couldn’t be alive.

Q: So that day, it was the first time that you got any idea of what Auschwitz was. They were telling you.

A: Yes. I woke up and I said to my sister, ‘It’s better for my parents. Already they don’t suffer.” Do you understand? Who suffers is very bad. I wouldn’t them suffering like me, because I had headaches and I didn’t feel good. You know. And then the Germans were coming and saying they need in the kitchen cooks. They were emptying the C lager, taking all of them to the fire and they were opening a new place for the newcomers. And my friends and everybody said, “Miriam, don’t do that. Don’t go. They will take you to the crematorium.” But I went and then I got here this. They made me this.

Q: This was after a few days, or on the day you arrived?

A: It was when they took me to the kitchen. I have this number on my hand.

Q: You have the number. What was your number?

A: It’s A11697. Here. This also Jews made that.

Q: This was after a few days. Did you sister also get a number?

A: My sister has also. The next number is hers.

Q: She went with you to work in the kitchen?

A: She came with me, yes. She had heart problems. I tried to…We didn’t know until after the war. The doctors didn’t know. She was a baby. She was always sick. We didn’t know why. And she lived, I think, till seventy. Sixty-something.

Q: So you were taken to work, and she also, in the kitchen. What happened to the other women who came from Chust? They were taken to work where? Do you know?

A: There were some people from Chust also in between them. I don’t remember to have any connections, because we were so tired from the zahlappells in the morning. They let us stay so long that we were lucky to rest a little bit. They didn’t let us.

Q: So maybe describe one day like this, in Auschwitz. When did you get up? What was the routine?

A: Well, everybody was chased out of the bed early in the morning. And we had to wait for three, four hours – it’s rain or cold or good weather. We had to stay naked, I think. They came to see us, if we are…I think Mengele checked. If there were sick people, he took them out to the crematorium. My little brother said – he was with the boys – that he put a stone under the feet, so he should look higher. This is how he survived from there. I don’t know what to tell you. There was no…

Q: So you stood and you waited. You said in the morning you stood for a few hours and waited.

A: Yes, we stood for a few hours, and while we were in the line, they were distributing bread and piece of margarine or something. They gave a quarter of a bread for one person per day.

Q: And then?

A: And then we had tea. That’s it.

Q: And then?

A: Nothing. Just lunch, what I told you.

Q: But you went to work no?

A: You are asking me when I was in the…

Q: This is the beginning.

A: This was the beginning. When I went to the kitchen already, I was helping a lot of people to live.

Q: So after how many days did you go to the kitchen?

A: It could have been after six weeks, after four weeks.

Q: Until then you stayed every day in the barracks, doing nothing.

A: Yes, doing nothing. This was terrible for me. I have to do always something.

Q: But at this point you had much more information about what was going on.

A: We knew everything. Mengele came and took out two of my cousins. Such a beautiful two girls – a fifteen-year-old and a fourteen-year-old. And they kept them around, they shouldn’t be able to run away.

Q: What were their names?

A: Rochele was one and the other one, I wouldn’t remember. I wouldn’t remember.

Q: And Mengele took.

A: Yes. Three other sisters survived. And those were such beautiful girls and they took them to…We couldn’t do anything. They couldn’t escape.

Q: And you got more information about what was going on in the world, with Jews, because in Auschwitz you all of a sudden met other people.

A: Nothing, no. If we would try to free a girl, then they would make tzores (trouble) for the whole…The Germans would punish everybody.

Q: How? What did you see?

A: How? They would beat them, they would take them probably in crematorium. I don’t know.

Q: You saw them punishing, you saw them beating? You saw such things?

A: Well, usually the Jews were working and the Jews were doing the beating. The Jews were doing the crematorium. They were doing everything. They didn’t need any workers. They had plenty Jews.

Q: Did you have in your barrack a kapo?

A: A kapo, yes. She was the kapo, who beat us. The kapo.

Q: Who was she?

A: We had a kapo, some rabbi’s daughter.

Q: Ah, she was the kapo, the rabbi’s daughter?

A: She was the kapo. She was the main. The kapo from Slovakia was terrible. And I heard that you married a rabbi somewhere in Canada. She became an animal. It’s not her fault maybe. You know? They became animals there. You saw animal thing.s

Q: Tell us about the sanitarium situation?

A: Oh, the sanitarium was terrible. There was a toilet. There were no leaves, there was no paper, nothing. The toilet was so big, like another barrack, and a lot of holes in it. You saw it on TV. You saw how they looked.

Q: They marched you to the toilets?

A: No, they didn’t march you. We went out to the toilet. This was already…if they wouldn’t let us to go there, there would sicknesses break out. You know? Anyway, we had a cold shower. I remember the cold shower other place. I think we had here also. And I found out I had a doda (aunt) there. A Hungarian.

Q: In Auschwitz? How did you find out?

A: She was in the same…they brought her. She wouldn’t eat margarine. She was such a…

Q: How did you find out that your aunt was there?

A: I met her. I went to see and we met each other.

Q: Tell us about that.

A: Well, it was a very pleasant meeting with her and I was in the kitchen, working.

Q: She was the sister of your mother?

A: A sister of my mother. And she stayed alive because of me. She was a very good cook and I gave her the materials. I switched the materials to her with other people, went to give it to her, and she cooked me shishkelach. I liked it.

Q: How could she cook? Where was there a place?

A: I don’t know. They managed somehow there. There was probably something. But she could do it. Maybe the kapo got also from it. I don’t know. But I kept alive a very big part of my family there too, and not family.

Q: So describe your work in the kitchen. How was it?

A: Well, they took us to the kitchen and some of them they put in the “shaling” (peeling) room, where they did the vegetables. You know, took off the skin and everything. I was by the cooking, with my sister. I always sat with my sister. Okay? And we had to cook for lunch, every day, the soup, what I was talking about. Actually, the Germans gave things to cook. Meat also. Maybe they said that it was from horsemeat.

Q: This was food that you were preparing for the prisoners or for the Germans also?

A: No, only for the prisoners.

Q: Who was in charge of you?

A: There was somebody in the kitchen in charge of us, I think.

Q: Jewish?

A: Not Jewish. She was Polish. She was Polish and she was rotten. And a Jewish boy used to come to her to use her, to take some things from the food. She gave away for him what she had to put in the soup – the meats and things.

Q: Why did she give him?

A: She liked him. We saw through the…that she sits in his lap and she wants to kiss him. He hated her. He wanted only to take advantage of her.

Q: She was Polish and she was also a prisoner?

A: She was a Polish goy.

Q: But she was a prisoner?

A: She was a prisoner.

Q: Criminal, political? You know why she was a prisoner?

A: There was a full block. It was with all Polish, older people (?), and they took them to the crematorium. Over fifty and older. A lot. There were from all over people there.

Q: So you worked in the kitchen form morning until when?

A: We had shifts – night shift and day shift.

Q: How many hours?

A: The hours – I think twelve hours.

Q: On your feet?

A: Yes.

Q: It was hard work?

A: The work wasn’t hard because we had what to eat. I could eat what I wanted. I got twice a day bread – I gave it to my family.

Q: When you say “I gave it to the family” – your aunt. Who else?

A: To strange people.

Q: Yes, but you said “my family” and you mentioned you found your aunt. Who else did you find from your family?

A: My aunt. I could keep alive strange people.

Q: I understand. I am asking you, you said that in Auschwitz you met your aunt. Did you meet other family members?

A: Just in the next block. They came to the block.

Q: Who was it there?

A: Cousins.

Q: You were helping them?

A: Yes, I was throwing over food.

Q: And you mentioned also that one of your brothers, your small brother, managed to survive also. He didn’t go to the crematorium.

A: He didn’t go to the crematorium because he was here a soldier. He came to Israel right away and he was a soldier here.

Q: But you said that one of them managed to make himself higher. Remember?

A: Yes, that one, because he was little. He grew bigger. It was the time for him to grow.

Q: In Auschwitz?

A: He was in Auschwitz. We met in Praha.

Q: But how old was he in Auschwitz?

A: Fourteen years old.

Q: So he didn’t go with your parents, in the selection.

A: No. By the selection he didn’t go. They took him out, it looks like.

Q: But did you know it by this time?

A: I didn’t know. I just knew after the war.

Q: So while you were in Auschwitz you thought he was dead also?

A: I thought everybody was dead. I didn’t know. I didn’t know my brother lived.

Q: And he was the only one who survived from Auschwitz, from your family?

A: He is the only that survived from Auschwitz. Right. I didn’t think even about it.

Q: But while you were in Auschwitz you never met him? You never saw him while you were there?

A: No, they took the boys to work in a different place outside.

Q: But you didn’t know he was alive until after Auschwitz?

A: No.

Q: You thought he was dead. And you found out he was alive only after the war.

A: Yes. He was a soldier here when I found out.

Q: So you were working in the kitchen, you and your sister. And what did you do after work? Can you describe the time when you weren’t working?

A: Well, we went to our…we had a special, a better bedroom. We had…Number 2 was for the workers, and we had already…

Q: So you changed the barrack from the one that you came to?

A: I didn’t change. The Germans just gave it to me.

Q: They moved you.

A: They moved me to one door next to the other place.

Q: Who was in this barrack, this Number 2?

A: The workers who were working in the kitchen. Only the workers.

Q: And where were they from? They were Jews from…?

A: Jewish.

Q: Yes, but from where? Which places?

A: Believe me, I found with one family in Cleveland, Ohio. I was living there.

Q: No, I mean when they were in Auschwitz. They were from Poland, they were from Slovakia?

A: They were from our neighbourhood.

Q: From Chust?

A: They were from Carpathorussia, Slovakia. The Slovaks were taken already. Hungarians. Hungarians were with me.

Q: And what did you do after work?

A: I don’t remember. I was so tired, probably I tried to sleep a little bit. I had to be up at night. This was the worst for me.

Q: There was no other activity?

A: No, nothing. Nothing. Once I threw food to somebody and the German caught me so she put me kneeling for a half a day.

Q: She caught you giving food?

A: Yes. When they brought the vegetables, I threw here and there. Whoever was close took, and I had pockets. They saw me, pockets.

Q: And she caught you, the German.

A: Yes, and I was kneeling a half a day. But they wouldn’t punish me. They taught me for a cook and they needed me. But they weren’t bad. The Germans there weren’t bad.

Q: But when she caught you, did you think that was the end of you?

A: I didn’t know what was going to happen from there. I just knew one thing, that I could better survive. Later then they took us a working lager.

Q: With your sister, in Auschwitz, were you talking about the past, or nothing? Did you talk about home?

A: Nobody had a past. Nobody had a front, a back, nothing.

Q: You weren’t talking about the house you left, the memories.

A: No. Everybody thought that he won’t survive.

Q: You thought that it was only a matter of time.

A: By the kitchen, where I cooked, I said, “Ribono shel oilam”. We were having one thought only, that we will not survive. I said, “I am so young. I don’t know what is life.” I talked to him. Mamash (really). That’s it. I think it was before the kitchen. And then I got to the kitchen.

Q: Were you able to maintain any kind of religious life?

A: I didn’t know when it was Pesach. I didn’t know when it was…Nothing. We didn’t know anything. Just what we heard, what some people remembered.

Q: Prayers? Any prayers?

A: Prayers we knew. The Jewish kids were…

Q: I’m asking were you saying any prayers?

A: Prayers. Shma Israel.

Q: Were you saying them in Auschwitz?

A: I don’t remember saying even that. We were very much in strain. This was a horrible place to be in, to think of anything there. All we saw was only the fire. We saw bringing people, new ones, and I recognized some neighbours from Chust and everything. And I was saying, “Mr. Friedman”, I remember. And they wouldn’t know who was calling them. They didn’t recognize anybody. You know, they took off everything. And that Mr. Friendman was taken to a coal mine and I saw him when they brought him back. He was like that. They brought him straight to the crematorium. I know that he was alive. I never found his family to tell him. He looked terrible. He was a good friend of my father.

Q: I want to ask you another question. You came from a religious family.

A: Very.

Q: At any point in Auschwitz did you lose your belief, your faith?

A: Yes. I believed in my faith. I never denied it. I came back and I was the same religious.

Q: You felt the same.

A: Yes. Same religious. I covered my head.

Q: But in terms of your feeling, your faith – you felt this just as strong during Auschwitz. Because some people lost their faith.

A: A lot of people lost their faith. They came and they didn’t want to believe in Jewishkeit.

Q: But you didn’t do this.

A: No. I know my cousin came back and she went in Budapest and bought the treif (non-kosher) scheinken (pork) for the same money you have a kosher one. Why would you buy it? And she was ultra-religious from home. They didn’t believe them. He had a kosher kitchen.

Q: Because some people said, “Where is G-d? Where was G-d?” But you had your faith. You kept your faith.

A: I had my faith all the time. I never lost it. If I talked to the Ribono shel oilam, I had my faith. This alone shows that I believed in it.

Q: And your sister as well?

A: Yes. It was a horrible time for Jews because America knew very well.

Q: And your sister, you would say that your sister also was the same? She had her faith? Your sister?

A: My sister, yes. She was the little one. She did what I did.

Q: She kept her faith also?

A: Yes, very much. Very much. She was living in Bnei Brak. Between rabbis. The whole family. My family is very religious.

Q: Did you hear in Auschwitz of any resistance or resistant groups?

A: Nobody could resist.

Q: There was an attempt. There were attempts. Did you hear about it? There was a small rebellion of the zonderkommando groups.

A: I didn't hear anything. We didn't know anything. Bergen-Belsen, other places, Mauthausen – we never knew of anything.

Q: Did you of people or see people trying to escape?

A: No. They couldn't escape where I was. This is one thing.

Q: And you didn't hear of people who escaped?

A: No. I don’t know.

Q: Did you see people running to the fence?

A: Yes. I didn't know. I almost went there too.

Q: Tell us about it.

A: In a minute she burned out. That's it. A little smoke I saw and that's it. The chashmal (electric) fence.

Q: It was an accident or she did it deliberately?

A: This I wouldn't know. She didn't know. She spoke to somebody. And she died on the spot.

Q: How long did you work in the kitchen?

A: I could have been there a few months. Let me see.

Q: it was during the summer?

A: I wouldn't really remember. It was summer and winter. It was both.

Q: Both summer and winter?

A: I think so.

Q: In terms of the weather changes? Your clothes? Do you remember anything?

A: Nobody had clothes to change. You were in the same dress all the time.

Q: You had a dress? You wore a dress? Or did you have a prisoner uniform?

A: No, no uniform. We got uniform in the working place, when we went to the other place.

Q: But in Auschwitz you wore…

A: The same thing that I got.

Q: You weren't cold?

A: We were cold. We went in the end to bed. We pushed each other and each other to warm up ourselves. That's what I remember.

Q: Do you remember having any dreams in Auschwitz?

A: I never had dreams. I don't remember. Yes, we had dreams. How we used to eat at home. The meat and the oogot (cakes). If we ever got home, what we were going to bake or to make. We were very hungry. Yes. A lot of people talked about it. You're right. Yes. How it is going to be if we get home. There was a myth.

Q: There was a big myth. And all this time, do you have any idea of what is going on with the war? The Germans – are they winning, losing? What is going on with the Russians?

A: Just we heard it won't be so long, the war already. When we knew already the Russians are coming and the Americans, we knew already that they are getting them.

Q: You heard that they were getting closer. And you heard that the Russians were getting closer? Did it make you think that…optimistic a little bit?

A: Yes, we were very happy because we were already free then. When we were between the Russians we were…

Q: No, so wait. Before you get to that stage. At what stage did you leave Auschwitz? What happened?

A: They took us in a train.

Q: They came one day and what?

A: They said they were taking us to work.

Q: The Germans came?

A: yes, the Germans. They put us on a train, that they are taking us to a factory. And they said, I heard, that they knew about this place and said that they were taking us…

Q: They told you in advance, "Tomorrow you are going to go"? Or what?

A: No.

Q: Within that same morning?

A: There was nothing to take. Just the way we were.

Q: So who did they tell this to? To you, your sister. Who else?

A: To the whole group.

Q: The whole group that was working in the kitchen?

A: That we will be taken to a work camp.

Q: The whole group that was working in the kitchen, they told.

A: Yes. The whole group.

Q: It was women. How many women?

A: I don't know. There were plenty, but they didn't take all the women, I think.

Q: So before we go to that stage, anything else that you can remember of Auschwitz that you want to tell us about?

A: I don't think anybody could remember. We knew that we were in a fermichtungslager – that's what we knew, and there is nothing to expect more. There was nothing to talk about it. Everybody was sheket (quiet). They even didn't want to mention that that is going to be our end.

Q: Did you happen to meet in Auschwitz, did you come in touch with Jews from other places, like from the Balkans, from Greece?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you meet any Jews?

A: Well, there were other people, but they were always taking them away.

Q: You saw them?

A: To the crematorium and replacing with others.

Q: You didn't have a chance to talk to them or anything?

A: In the same camp we could have a chance to talk.

Q: Did you talk to Jews from…?

A: Yes, we could go from one barrack to the other during the day, after the zahlappell, after everythin.g

Q: So did you meet Jews from Greece or from other places?

A: No, from Greece I didn't meet, but I told you that I met my aunt.

Q: I was wondering if you had any chance or contact with Jews from other places. You said no.

A: No, we didn't. Just outside, when we were already…I met from all over with people.

Q: Okay. So they took you that morning to the train.

A: To the train.

Q: What did they tell you? You are going where?

A: Where we are going? To Leipzig or outskirts of Leipzig, and we will work in a factory. And somebody told us that it is a good place, where they are taking us.

Q: So what was your feeling? Were you scared or were you happy to leave?

A: I wasn't scared because I knew we were out of Auschwitz, which was a good sign.

Q: But you were going to Germany.

A: I was going to Germany – that's right. But it was okay there.

Q: You were happy to leave Auschwitz behind you.

A: Yes. And we were in the middle wagon and it slipped.

Q: You were told you were going to work in a factory. Did they explain why they were taking you all of a sudden?

A: They didn't explain anything. There was no explanation.

Q: Just you were going to work.

A: They were who said what to do, not me. And I couldn’t ask.

Q: You didn't have a chance to say goodbye to your aunt or anybody.

A: Nobody. Even to my own parent. I didn't know that they weren't coming back.

Q: No, I mean the aunt that you met after in Auschwitz.

A: My aunt was also taken to work in Auschwitz, stayed alive.

Q: She was taken in the same train also?

A: She was in Bergen-Belsen. She was there freed.

Q: But the day they took you on the train to Leipzig area, you didn't have a chance to say anything to her. She didn't know that you were taken.

A: I don't remember already what happened. I really don't remember how long she was there.

Q: So you got on the train and what happened? This was what kind of a train?

A: It was a horse train. What else? Animal train. And the middle one was slipping out, but the front one and the back one stayed on the place.

Q: The wagons, you mean?

A: Yes. And we were all sliding down, but there was not really an accident. You know? Just we fell one on the other. And they said that they were doing a mistake. They went a little further than they had to in Leipzig. They needed to be in Markkleeberg. It was probably before them. So that's what it was. So they took us to work, labour.

Q: What happened? Were you hurt in the accident?

A: No, we weren't hurt.

Q: So you walked after the accident?

A: Yes, we walked. No, no, we didn't walk to Markkleeberg. They took us with the train.

Q: With another train?

A: They took us with the train. Probably they fixed it.

Q: You arrived there. How long was this trip, from Auschwitz to Markkleeberg?

A: I wouldn't really remember. Two days maybe.

Q: And you arrived there. Describe what did you see.

A: The Oberschaftfuhrer and his wife were receiving us.

Q: Do you know his name?

A: No, I don't know his name. Chaval (too bad).

Q: How old was he, about?

A: Middle-aged. They were middle-aged.

Q: German?

A: He was a very good man.

Q: He was German?

A: He was German. He could be a Nazi and not be a bad person. And he took us to bathe.

Q: He was in uniform? SS?

A: He was in uniform, but the wife not. Yes. He was like a soldier with us.

Q: So he received you from the train? He took you from the train?

A: Yes. He received us. And he talked to us.

Q: How many girls were you, about? What would you say?

A: I don’t know. Five hundred or eight hundred. I don't know. Because there were already people. They had it much better. When we came it was Gan Eden (paradise) to the places where we were. You know?

Q: So you got there.

A: Yes, and he made us to shower, we should be clean. He gave us clean clothes and an overall – pant. And we were already with a number. Everybody had a number.

Q: It was also barracks, wooden barracks? It was a camp?

A: It was a barrack, yes. Not wooden.

Q: How many women in one barrack?

A: We were a thousand five hundred people.

Q: All together in the same building?

A: All together. Not in the same building. We slept in a bed. We had beds. This was a working camp for the factory. And there we had separate beds, I remember.

Q: It was better conditions.

A: Yes, better conditions. And we had to cover ourselves already.

Q: You had blankets?

A: Yes, and we got more food.

Q: And do you remember maybe the name of the factory?

A: I wouldn't remember, but it could be looked up. In Markkleeberg the factory which made parts for avironim (airplanes).

Q: For airplanes.

A: Yes, that was it. And there, in the factory, you see, we had a lot of people from all over. Politicians, you know.

Q: Political prisoners?

A: Political. They were doing the main work on the machine, to put it in, and we just had to push it back and forth or something. Very easy.

Q: Wait. You came the first day. They divided you into groups? Where did you go?

A: No. All of us went to the same factory.

Q: You went to the same factory?

A: Yes, and they divided in the factory us, by which table I will be working and by which others. And I had my man, who was…there is a name for it. Who prepared the machines. Sometimes I don't remember.

Q: And your sister was with you always?

A: She was with me all the time, and that was like this is how she survived.

Q: So what were you doing physically? What was the work?

A: There were little things like this and that had to be taken off. It was too thick. And he put the machine to the certain point, but he made a lot of auchuss (damage). they call it auchuss (damage). Specially he didn't want everything to have good. This is what they said. So that it was auchuss. (end of side)

Q: So we were talking about the work in the factory. You were describing the work that you did. How many hours did you work every day?

A: Well, there were decent hours. I think there were two shifts. I couldn't remember.

Q: It was hard physically? It was difficult.

A: No, it was very light. Very light. We were contacted with people who lived in the city and sometimes they brought us a little salt because, you know, salt or something.

Q: Local people? German?

A: No, they were all living in the city, the political prisoners.

Q: Did you know why they were prisoners?

A: If they said political prisoner, and then…

Q: But they were German or Polish or…?

A: They were Dutch…

Q: And all over Europe.

A: All over.

Q: Did they ever tell you their stories?

A: We never talked too much. They were nice people.

Q: And they brought from the city things.

A: Yes. We asked them to bring in something. They were nice. My sister had a birthday and he made a birthday ring special for her. They were very nice people.

Q: A birthday ring?

A: He made it. He was able to do it.

Q: And you celebrated the birthday?

A: It was nice of him that he did it. They called her "Baby".

Q: Were you also able to celebrate the birthday?

A: No. Who celebrated? I don't celebrate today either. If the children wouldn't tell me I was born, I wouldn't know maybe.

Q: And at that place, were you able to maintain some of your religious life, or not? Holidays?

A: Holidays we didn't know. It didn't mean a lot to a woman, the religious thing to hold. Can talk to the Ribono shel oilam or you can say Modei ani or something, but you know?

Q: Who were the Jews you met there? Other Jews? The women. It was women and men?

A: They were from Paris. I remember French. She wanted to go in a different place from me. They were from all over.

Q: What were you talking about?

A: We never had special talks, especially with the French. They were very selfish.

Q: Tell us about it.

A: She didn't want to be close to us, when we went away. She said, "You go one side. I'll go the other side."

Q: What language did you speak? Yiddish?

A: Probably German. Probably.

Q: Were there also German workers, local workers? Not prisoners?

A: No. They had only the heftlings.

Q: And Jews from other places besides Paris?

A: Yes.

Q: From where?

A: Hungarian were a lot because I came with Hungarians. You think we were interested in things like that? From where somebody is? I don’t think we had it in mind even to ask because we were in big strain about our whole life, what happened to our life. We knew already we don't have family. To whom are we coming home? What are we expecting at home? You know? And so, little things didn't mean anything to us. The only one thing we knew, we were in a better place.

Q: And you were mentioning a German officer, SS officer. What was your contact with him?

A: I had no contact with him. He was telling what to do, what to give us. Clean clothes we had to take every week.

Q: He was in charge of you?

A: He, with his wife.

Q: Where did they live?

A: They had there own…

Q: In the camp?

A: In the camp. They had a house or something. I don't know even where. Sure.

Q: And every day you didn't have any contact with him.

A: I don't think we had to be every day in contact. He just didn't like it when we didn't put on the underwear, and he punished me once.

Q: You didn't put on underwear? Why?

A: Because I saw they were full with the nests of the lice. After washing. And they took ten girls who didn't have the underwear on and put us with one bed in one room for one night.

Q: In one bed. That was your punishment.

A: Yes. That was the punishment.

Q: And you all suffered from lice?

A: There were some occasions with lice. Sure.

Q: You didn't mention it in Auschwitz. Also in Auschwitz?

A: Probably. You had to have lice if you didn't change the clothes. You didn't have, just the same clothes.

Q: But you don't recall specifically.

A: No, but there I saw in the…we didn't get in Auschwitz underwear. We saw in the goofia (undershirt) that there were nests already. Maybe that they were already killed by the washing, but I didn't feel like wearing it.

Q: So he punished you.

A: Yes. We cried. We had cold water winter and summer to shower. Everybody could shower every day here. You know? It was different.

Q: And where do you eat? There was a dining room or special area?

A: No, not a dining room. They gave us to eat. You know, I don't remember how we ate. We ate in our barracks.

Q: There was enough food?

A: We had enough food, I think, to survive. To survive.

Q: You weren’t hungry.

A: No. The previous people said that it was even more food before we came. It was end of the war already. It was very hard. In Germany all the people were gone from the houses. You could go in a house, you know. You may not like it that I talk about it.

Q: Go ahead.

A: You go in a city. Most houses are closed, you know. They have packed everything nicely in boxes and put away. They couldn't take it with them. Everybody left on a wagon, with horses, you know? And you could have any house you wanted.

Q: But you were in the camp. You didn't see this.

A: There were only ten-year-olds in chayalim (soldier) suits. They were not able to do anything. They wouldn't shoot, they wouldn't…

Q: This was later on.

A: That was before the end of the war. I was there before the end of the war in this place.

Q: But in the camp where you were you didn't see the Germans.

A: No. We had nothing to do with them. We were taken with somebody there and they brought them. In the land from the place where we were sleeping was the factory.

Q: You were making parts for new airplanes or to repair? Did you know anything at all?

A: I had no idea. What ever it was, it was our lifesaver.

Q: And after this, did you hear in the factory, did you get more information about the war, what was going on? Because in Auschwitz you said you had no idea. But here, did you have more information?

A: Here we heard from the workers. The men who were working, preparing the machines.

Q: What did you hear?

A: Forarbeiter it is called. The forarbeiters were very nice. They were also heftlings.

Q: They were also prisoners. But what was the information that you got? What did you hear more?

A: They were talking about the war, that it is coming to an end soon, which was good.

Q: Anything else?

A: Nothing special.

Q: You were at that time about what, twenty?

A: Around twenty. Twenty.

Q: Was there more romantic contact with men? Workers? Prisoners?

A: No. To be in contact, a woman with a…no.

Q: It wasn't possible.

A: No, no. Who needs it?

Q: But it was possible, because you did meet other men, prisoners.

A: No. There was nothing.

Q: So what happened next?

A: What happened next? The Americans were coming. We heard them already shooting.

Q: You heard the shooting?

A: And then somebody said to me that the front of the factory got hit. Okay? The Obersharfuhrer took us out from there, all of us.

Q: All fifteen hundred?

A: Fifteen hundred. He took a cover with us Who wanted, took a cover. I don't remember if I did. And we went walking.

Q: He started marching you.

A: Marching. Three weeks under the sky.

Q: Who else besides the officer? There were soldiers?

A: The wife was with him.

Q: Only him and his wife?

A: It was a few Germans who were watching the line, we shouldn't go out.

Q: With rifles, with guns? With what?

A: They were, but they weren't…

Q: And this is during what? Summer? Winter?

A: Well, it was after Pesach, I think. After Pesach. We were sitting like herring, laying down on the streets to sleep.

Q: So it was around April.

A: Yes, something like that.

Q: Because the war ended in May, so it would be something like April. And you started walking. There was snow, cold?

A: It wasn't snow, but rain. Rain was…

Q: It was cold?

A: Not so much, I think, rain.

Q: And you started marching, from morning till evening?

A: Yes, all night.

Q: Did you know where you were going, where you were marching to?

A: No, we didn't know where we were going because he was a good man. We weren't scared of him for some reason. They wanted to save their own lives. They wanted we should say something good about them, but he was good from the first minute. I don't know what his name was, but he deserved. He was in charge of this camp and of this factory, and he was a soldier with us.

Q: You said he was decent.

A: He was decent, very decent. For everybody, yes.

Q: So he was walking with you?

A: Yes. He was in front, and the chayalim in back.

Q: Actually walking, or did he have a car?

A: He was walking. No, he was walking.

Q: With his wife?

A: Walking.

Q: And where did you sleep, where did you eat?

A: Well, everybody tried to get somebody a hoozele. You know what a hoozele is? They could something catch live. They could grab it. I really don't know.

Q: You were walking through villages?

A: Yes, we were walking through villages.

Q: And the villages, there were people living there, or…?

A: It was people living. He went to a farmer and told them to get some potatoes, something to eat for fifteen hundred people.

Q: It's a lot of people.

A: He wouldn't want to give the German. Okay? So he said, "Everybody, take out the potatoes, what they put in the earth to grow".

Q: And you went?

A: I didn't. I couldn't eat yet raw potatoes. I don't know.

Q: So you were starving?

A: I don't remember. We probably were hungry, yes. I like to prepare something I should have.

Q: And you were walking from morning to night?

A: Yes. At night we were laying down on the streets, wherever we were, and we were sleeping through the night.

Q: And you had no idea where you were going to?

A: No.

Q: And this went on for three weeks.

A: This went on for three weeks, and we saw already that we are getting thinner and thinner and thinner, less and less people. And Obersharfuhrer wasn't around already, who stayed behind. He knew already that the war is ended.

Q: And you kept marching?

A: And we went in to a barn. There were from the whole world people. You know, not too many. One from here, one from there, two from…from French, from all over.

Q: But while you were marching for three weeks, were people dying along the way?

A: No. Nobody was dying.

Q: Was it hard marching all day?

A: It wasn't hard for us, you know? We knew already that this is the end of the war. We knew. We started hoping a little bit already.

Q: So at that point, when you got there, you knew that war had ended?

A: The war was ended, yes, and we were already by the barn. And they said, "Hitler…(?)". They were very angry at Hitler, all the Germans. They didn't want that what happened to them.

Q: What did you feel the day that you heard the war had ended? Can you describe that day?

A: Well, we went out on the street and we were telling each other, you know, whoever was, we were telling each other that it was the end of the war. Then I was hungry. I went to schnorr (beg for) food.

Q: Where?

A: Where? To a German door. I knocked in and I said, "Bitte…(?) essen." And I got from the. They gave me. "Eat." And on the day, wherever we went…

Q: Were they afraid of you?

A: No. We had overalls on. They didn't like the war. You think they liked it? Just a few people were left. The younger were going and going…

Q: But they weren't afraid of you?

A: No. And at one point, I was in a barn, sleeping outside barn. We were so tired from walking, because we walked to Dresden. That somebody came out from the Germans and sees us there to sleep. Anywhere. You know? Out in the…I don't know. Maybe there was some straw or what. And he started screaming. I said, "We are just loiter". They shouldn't be afraid of us. We had to sleep through here. And they gave us food where they asked. This is why we survived already. Then the Russians gave us food.

Q: Wait, I want to understand. You walked to Dresden? With the whole group, or each one went by themselves?

A: We didn't walk actually the whole way. It was coming a car, a truck, a Russian.

Q: This was your first encounter with the Russians?

A: Yes.

Q: It was the first time you met the Russians?

A: Yes, the first time.

Q: Describe that encounter.

A: Yes. So we went up on that truck and they were taking…they said they were going through Praha. They liked Praha. But it was night and they wanted to rest and there were German houses, as I told you, empty, all over. There was a big house and they were talking on the way – I understood in Russian and I didn't like what they talked, that they wanted to rape us.

Q: Who was on the truck, you and your sister?

A: I was with three Hungarian girls. One was a woman. She was married.

Q: You, your sister and three other Hungarian Jewish…

A: The Russians liked me, they wanted davka me.

Q: And the other Hungarians, they were Jewish?

A: They were also with me. First of all, we went down from the truck. We had no other choice. "Rabbi Kuschat" (?) – the first thing is to eat, by the Russians. And they gave us to eat everything. We were eating.

Q: Where was this? In Dresden?

A: In Dresden. It was in a house there. And we went in one room and we went under the bed. We tried to hide, they shouldn't see us. And one of the Russians was coming in and…

Q: They were soldiers?

A: Soldiers. Took away the woman who was married. He let her back, not for a long time. And there was another Hungarian girl…

Q: They took her where? Sorry. I didn't understand.

A: Took her in another room. To rape her.

Q: He raped her?

A: Yes. And then there were three Hungarian girls. The one was very thin. They liked, you know, good meat. And took the other girl out and she was long with him there. She was a virgin, and he wouldn't let nobody to go to her. He was good. You know what happened?

Q: And what happened to you and your sister?

A: To me, they left me alone. They left me alone because I could talk to them. I said, "What would you do if with your sister they did that?" I talked to them. I talked them out. And when I went down, I heard coming cars, Russian (?) autos, and I went down and I was crying that they wanted to rape us. So what can I tell you? It helped, my talking.

Q: The fact that you talked to them.

A: Yes, I was (?). And then I said there to one of the Russians that we were in Auschwitz and he said he was also a Jew.

Q: In the Russian army?

A: Yes. I met. And I told him that I couldn’t, I shouldn't stay a virgin. He said, "You are here in a kfar (village), because between the Russians you may not be able to stay." So he said, "Be my first." He said. And I met with him once more. He said, "Do you want to be my first?" We went to Praha with them. He took us to Praha.

Q: Before we go to Praha, how was it to come to Dresden? Can you describe what you saw?

A: I came with the Russians. A car brought us there.

Q: How did the place look? It was destroyed?

A: It was very destroyed. A lot of places. Budapest looked terrible. Terrible. All over.

Q: I am talking about Dresden.

A: Dresden. Of course it was. All over was…

Q: What did you see? Tell me what did you see?

A: Let me tell you the truth. I didn't go to look in the houses. You know? In some of the houses they lived. Most of them were gone from there. And if there were bombs, wherever they…

Q: It was bombed. And you saw it?

A: Yes. Sure we saw places. Bombed.

Q: You saw all the ruined places.

A: Yes.

Q: And at that point, were you making already plans for yourself and your sister?

A: I couldn't make any plans. We had to come to Praha and in Praha everybody said, "(?), (?)".

Q: Why did you want to go to Praha?

A: Because first of all, I'm Czech. This is my homeland. You know? I was born there. And the three Hungarian girls were with me together. They came because they helped…we got a hotel, food in Praha.

Q: Who paid for it? How did you have money?

A: Praha gave for everybody. Whoever came from the camps, they gave them place, food.

Q: Who was that? The government?

A: The government.

Q: Did you get in touch with any Jewish organization? Like the Joint?

A: Well, we were in Jewish organizations. We didn't need it. The Czechs gave out everything. I went with this. I could travel wherever I wanted. They never asked me even. I said I was in camp.

Q: So you came to Praha and they gave you a hotel?

A: Yes, a hotel and food and clothes, money. Everything.

Q: When you left Germany, when the war ended, you said you met the Russians. Did you encounter other armies?

A: This is another army. This is the Jewish guy which I told on another truck.

Q: But did you encounter the Americans or others?

A: The problem was that the Obersharfuhrer took us from the Americans to the Russians. If he stayed there, it would have been better for us.

Q: If you had stayed with the Americans?

A: Yes, with the Americans.

Q: Do you know what happened to him?

A: No. I didn't know his name. I wasn't interested.

Q: So how was it to come to Praha after the war? Had you been there before? In Praha? It wasn't the first time in your life.

A: Yes. I can't remember. Was I in Praha? No, I don't think so, that I really was. We didn’t travel. We couldn't travel.

Q: What was the feeling being there?

A: It was a very good feeling because I felt at home. I could talk to everybody. And I could talk for myself.

Q: At this stage, when you went to the factory in Germany, there were still women or Jewish people from Chust also with you?

A: I don't remember that. No.

Q: From Auschwitz you weren't with people from your home town.

A: No. They changed people every day, you know.

Q: When you got to Praha, did you find any people from your home town?

A: Oh yes. We found. Yes. We found family.

Q: In Praha?

A: In Praha. I was living in a hotel where other heftlingers were also. Everybody was free. We could go and come where we wanted. And all over they gave us help. They hated the Germans. I could have any house I wanted. My husband was a Czech soldier and he got to know me.

Q: So how long did you stay in Praha?

A: Well, I stayed around three weeks, I think. And I got to know my husband.

Q: Tell us about it.

A: He had it worse than I had. He was taken to Russia.

Q: What was his name? Where did he come from?

A: Okay. Let me start from the beginning, because it was interesting why he stayed alive.

Q: Okay, but very shortly because we are…

A: Okay. He was in Hungary taken to Smangsarbeit (?).

Q: What was his name?

A: Sigmund Rosenvasser. And he was from Beregszasz. And he was born 1920. Okay? He was at home a football player and they liked very much the football players, the Hungarians, and made them play. And one day the main man from the whole kvutsa (team) took him to him home. He didn't want to let him there. He stayed with him. He was doing the shoes for him and everything. He loved him because he was a player. And then came the time that they had to kill everybody. He said, "Listen, I give you gun. You go ahead and don't look for work." And he crossed over into Russia. And he was in Russia, in Siberia. They were eating there dead people. They were killing people and eating their meat.

Q: So he got to Praha now. You met him in Praha.

A: The Czech army heard about him and they went to Russia where he was with a lot of boys. And they brought him to Praha to be a soldier, that he is good.

Q: So you met him there.

A: Yes, and I met him there. He gave us money, he gave us food. He brought us everything. And he fell in love with me. But I didn't feel for him. I had a sister and I felt I am responsible for my sister. I told him I don't get married until I marry my sister. He said, "Don't worry. I will take care of her." He had a chussen for her and he had a shidduch and he made a wedding. Everybody took whole cakes home. He was working already here.

Q: In Praha? The wedding was in Praha?

A: Here was the wedding. In Israel. He worked in the tzava (army) and he had a zuckerbaker who made a lot of cakes. And he held his word, what he said. He gave her everything.

Q: Who was this in Israel? I missed you here. You were saying that the chatuna (wedding) was in Israel.

A: In Israel. In Bnei Brak.

Q: But whose chatuna?

A: My sister's.

Q: Who was the shidduch?

A: The shidduch was a boy from Romania, from Siget.

Q: Okay, so we will get to it. But this was later she got married. So let's go back to Praha. Okay?

A: I am still in Praha with my husband?

Q: yes. And what happened then?

A: My husband was asked with the whole group of the chayalim to go to the borders of Poland because they had some sichsuch (disagreement) with Poland.

Q: Okay. And what happened with you?

A: And he told me that I should go home. We should go home and he will come and he will get me. And he cried very much, and I didn’t cry. And I said, "Ribbonesheloilem, give me some tears." And then some came. He told me, "I have what to cry, but I don't know if you have to cry."

Q: So you went from Praha to Chust?

A: I went from Praha, that I am coming home. My husband went with the tzava.

Q: You weren't married yet.

A: No. I wasn't married.

Q: You went with your sister.

A: I went with my sister and we came to Chust.

Q: How did you come to Chust?

A: With trains, with whatever. Trains.

Q: How long did it take?

A: I don't know. From Budapest it was ten hours. I don't know how much.

Q: What did you find when you came there?

A: I didn't find nobody in our houses.

Q: Who was living there?

A: Nobody. It was living a few girls from the vicinity. They took our furniture to another place.

Q: Hungarian or Czech?

A: No, no. Jewish girls who came back from the…They went to Jewish houses. You know? Then I heard that my uncle is there.

Q: You stayed there? You slept in your house?

A: No, I went to my uncle. I slept in my uncle's house.

Q: This was whose brother?

A: My father's brother.

Q: He survived.

A: Yes, he survived. He is not alive anymore.

Q: And you found him in Chust?

A: I found him in Chust.

Q: How long did you stay in Chust?

A: I didn't stay long because my husband didn't know. I missed to tell you that we went after three weeks to the bridge and the bridge was broken. I had to go back to Praha for a while. Okay? We couldn't go to the bridge. We waited till we heard that the bridge was ready. Then we came just to Chust.

Q: And then you stayed a few days in Chust?

A: Yes. And then I went to Hungary where the doda (aunt) I met – she was alive.

Q: You knew that she was there? How did you know?

A: I knew that they survived. My doda wasn't there. My doda was in the hospital. After Bergen-Belsen she was very narrow inside, in her…she was already a woman and they tried to…

Q: How did you know that she survived?

A: We heard that she survived because her husband was home.

Q: And where was she living in Hungary?

A: In Nagyecsed. By Mateszalka.

Q: That's where you went. That's the city of your mother.

A: Yes. This is my mother.

Q: How did you have money to travel all over?

A: My husband gave us. Whatever he had, he gave me. And he was doing…

Q: And he came to Hungary to meet you again?

A: Yes. He came from the tzava (army). He went away from the tzava not even legally. When he wrote that he was legal when I went away.

Q: So you came to your mother's town in Hungary. And what then?

A: He came home. He didn't find me home. He went in on the way to Hungarians and took away a horse and a buggy b'koach (by force) and he told, "If you want, you can come. You will get your horse back." He took with a horse and buggy to me, to Nagyecsed.

Q: So you stayed there in Nagyecsed?

A: I stayed there for a little while, yes.

Q: How long? With your sister?

A: Well, we were afraid to stay because the Russians went to look for girls all over, and my husband was there, so they wouldn't dare. You know? He talked with them. He knew how to talk with them.

Q: For how long did you stay there?

A: We went to Budapest. We went to Budapest to find out who is alive from the family. And we were in Budapest afterwards. Okay? We were renting a house from a Jew and we had an apartment just, you know, to sleep.

Q: You, your sister and your husband. Did you get married already?

A: I didn't get married so fast.

Q: You were working there?

A: My husband was taking balutan. You know what balutan is? All kinds of money to Romania and bringing back other things with gold and money. Everybody was doing business. All the Jews. They suddenly had all money.

Q: You had relatives in Budapest?

A: I really didn't. Only the family. My brother was there. My brother was written on the Jewish thing, that he is alive. He left his name. And we went every day from Budapest. We stayed in Budapest to see, you know…

Q: So where did you meet him?

A: We met them there.

Q: Tell me about the meeting.

A: It was very, very…he was so happy. We were crying all together. He was the older, older from me. And he was so happy. He was also doing business. They said that he was rich already. Everything they said, you know. If somebody had something, he was rich already. He went and bought us a golden ring for me and for my sister. And we were living, so my brother helped…

Q: He was married?

A: No, he wasn't married.

Q: So he was living in Budapest.

A: He was in Budapest, and going here and there to Praha, from Praha to Budapest, from Budapest to…you know, doing business.

Q: And did you work also?

A: No. I didn't work. My husband didn't let me work.

Q: How was the atmosphere in Budapest after the war?

A: I really didn't like Budapest never because I know they are anti-Semites.

Q: You felt it then too?

A: I never like them. I will always feel it. When I was there lately I was upset that I had to be there. I didn't like it. No, I was unhappy. I was in dikayon (depression).

Q: You were in contact with other people in the Jewish community?

A: Yes. I was right by the Jewish community. But the Jews were very poor there.

Q: You went back to your religious traditions?

A: Yes, I went back to the religion.

Q: You kept kosher?

A: Yes, I kept right away kosher.

Q: celebrated the holidays?

A: Yes, we did.

Q: You went to shul?

A: Everything. We had to say kaddish.

Q: To which shul did you go? The big synagogue?

A: Well, the first time we went to the big shul, which is not, because there were all kinds of people. Frummer people also davening. Later we went to the Kazinczy Temple, if you know Budapest. This is the religious shul. But they had every day less and less people. They hardly had a minyan. Such a big temple and everything.

Q: You had contact also with the "Joint" or other organizations?

A: Yes. I went to the "Joint". I even made there a paper that I am from there and there, with somebody who knew me.

Q: Gave your details.

A: Yes.

Q: Did you find out more about the fate of your family in Auschwitz? Did you get more details, more information?

A: No, never.

Q: From the Red Cross or other…

A: No, Red Cross couldn't know it. There weren't names.

Q: There were some people who heard something.

A: It was probably earlier, in the earlier years.

Q: So you assumed that the day that you arrived in Auschwitz they were taken to the crematorium.

A: I didn't know that. I just knew it when we were already in the barracks. When other people told us what was happening.

Q: Yes, but after the war you didn't get any more information about them.

A: No. Of course we didn't. We knew that they never went out from there.

Q: For how long did you live in Budapest?

A: In Budapest we were for a while.

Q: for how long?

A: Till I found my brother and my sister.

Q: A few months?

A: A few months. And then my husband went back to Praha and he fixed up that we could go back, because my husband could have gotten the nicest thing he wanted in Praha because he was a soldier for them. Okay? (?) I don't know if you know what this is.

Q: But you said he left the army, he escaped.

A: But he went back and (?) and we were living there. They made business in Praha. My brother came there, my sister. And my sister came then to Budapest and she made aliyah here.

Q: This is Shoshana?

A: Yes. They came, what she had heart problems.

Q: When did she make aliyah? Then? You went to Praha and she made aliyah?

A: After my wedding. I had a wedding in Budapest. And then we went to Praha. And in Praha I had the other wedding, in goyish.

Q: In Budapest you were married in a synagogue?

A: In a restaurant.

Q: In the restaurant. In a Jewish wedding?

A: It was a Jewish wedding, a Jewish chuppah, a Jewish rav.

Q: And then you went to Praha and your sister went to Israel.

A: Yes, my sister and my brother also came to Israel. Afterwards.

Q: At the same time?

A: No, not the same time. I got pregnant and I had a premature baby in Hungary. I couldn't move for two years from there.

Q: In Hungary or Praha?

A: I was pregnant in Praha. When I was seven months along I came to…six months maybe I was. And I was a few weeks and I gave birth to the baby.

Q: In Praha?

A: No, in Hungary.

Q: You went back to Hungary.

A: Yes. They took me to Nyiregyhaza because there was no hospital. And my son was born there. He was so pitzele. Here was his head and here his legs. They took him in a "tooche" (?).

Q: So he was born…(?)/ And your sister left to Israel.

A: Yes.

Q: You wanted to go to Israel too?

A: yes, she came to Israel. She was working by "Osem".

Q: Okay, but you wanted also to come to Israel?

A: Yes. We all planned to come to Israel, and we came.

Q: So you stayed for two more years in Hungary?

A: Yes.

Q: You had some work there?

A: He had a store made. He made a store and it was a very good one, with materials. It's a very rich place, where we lived. The goyim have money.

Q: What is the name of the town that you…?

A: Nagyecsed.

Q: It is a different town from your mother's town?

A: Yes. It sounds the same like my mother's. I say "Nagy". It is written "N-A-G-Y".

Q: But it is a different town.

A: My mother was from there. My mother. There came back some family. I had some family. You know, further. Not too close family.

Q: So then you stayed there two years, about two years, and then you decided to make aliyah.

A: We stayed there two years, but my aunt had to run away from there because they couldn't get out. They wanted to go to Israel. And they went at night. They paid for a guide and the baby they put to sleep and took him over to Vienna, I think. And from there she made aliyah. I stayed alone already for a while, since I didn't have family there. I wanted to go back. So the baby was two and a quarter years old.

Q: And then?

A: And then we went to Venice.

Q: How did you do this? How did you go? Did the Jewish Agency help you?

A: I went to the (?) Agency. There is in Praha (?) Agency. We had passports. We were living in Praha. I didn't need to go, but there is a (?) Agency. All over.

Q: No, but you said you were two years in Hungary.

A: Yes.

Q: So from Hungary you left to Praha?

A: From Hungary we got to Israel.

Q: Yes, but how did you leave? That is what I am asking.

A: How did I leave? With the train probably.

Q: There were no problems leaving the place. It was organized.

A: No. Everything we left there.

Q: You left everything.

A: yes, but from Budapest we shopped things and we took.

Q: And you took the train from Budapest to Italy?

A: Yes.

Q: And you had a baby then, or…He was two years old, about?

A: Yes, we had a baby. My husband was sick in the hotel. He had arthritis. He couldn't come.

Q: And you had one boy.

A: Yes, a little boy. And then my daughter was born in Israel.

Q: So you came with a boat to Israel in 1949.

A: Yes, 1949.

Q: I am asking if the trip at any stage was the Jewish Agency helped you?

A: No. As a matter of fact, I didn't take anything which was good. We paid for everything.

Q: Not the Sochnut?

A: They just gave us a beit olim here in Netanya, and the three beds.

Q: You got to Haifa?

A: No, to Tel Aviv.

Q: To Tel Aviv? With the boat?

A: Yes. In middle the yam was staying. It didn't come out to the port. It was staying in the water. With ships they brought us in.

Q: Okay, but this was after Independence War and there was a State of Israel.

A: Yes. It was already a state in Israel.

Q: '49, yes? What do you remember of your first view of Israel, of Eretz Yisrael?

A: I was very happy to be here in Israel. I missed my family. Whatever there was left, they were here already. And I was very happy.

Q: Did you know any Hebrew?

A: No. I didn't know. I learned it, but I didn't know.

Q: So they took you from the boat to Netanya?

A: They took to Netanya. Two years we were in the beit olim. We had to wait till they built our house.

Q: The beit olim was a place where you…did you study there? Hebrew or anything? Was it like an ulpan?

A: Not really. No.

Q: And your husband was working?

A: Everybody was talking the same language. My husband was looking for a job. To get a job, it was a big job. You know. So he saw written out that the tzava wanted some cooks and he had no idea of cooking. And he went to the tzava with one of our neighbours, who also was looking, and they took them both in to the tzava to work. And he worked himself so much up that everybody loved them there. He joked with them and he was doing food. Ten years we were there. And when it came the time that we wanted to go to America, they said, they wrote a letter that they don't let him out. They couldn't do that.

Q: I wanted to ask you again, a little bit more in detail, your encounter with the first Israelis, with the Sabras. How was it?

A: Oh, with the Sabras. Well, we saw the Sabras are a little bit too hard, and they are built different, but we had no problems.

Q: You told people that you were a Holocaust survivor? That you were in Auschwitz?

A: They knew.

Q: How was the reaction? Did they talk about it?

A: I had family in Israel. My uncle, whom I told you. We were happy to meet the whole family.

Q: But I am talking about…

A: The reaction. I somehow don't remember reactions. I wasn't in contact really.

Q: You felt free to talk about it?

A: Yes. Free of everything.

Q: You talked about it? I am asking because, you know, there are survivors who didn't talk about it. Who did not talk about it. There were survivors who didn’t talk about it. They weren't free to talk about it.

A: Well, we were living in a place, in the beit olim, where everybody was a survivor. And we were living then in the shikun, where every new waited for the building. You know, my husband worked in the tzava and I saved up already the money I had to pay.

Q: And with your husband, were you talking to him about your experiences in Auschwitz?

A: Oh yes. We did everything. He was talking about his life. I was talking about my life.

Q: And you met other people from Chust in Israel?

A: We met here and there, yes. I met, as a matter of fact, in Bnei Brak, was living from my town somebody. Yes, we met.

Q: So you lived in Netanya for about ten years.

A: Two years. In the beit olim. Then in Bnei Brak, in the shikun.

Q: Then you moved to Bnei Brak. When was your daughter born?

A: My daughter was born there in the shikun. I lived there. Four years after. Three a half years after.

Q: In 1953?

A: yes, '53, right.

Q: And then when the children were small, did you talk to them about, did you tell them about…?

A: I couldn't talk to them. I never did. When my daughter already had sechel (sense) to ask me, I was upset. I couldn't talk about it and I tried. "Let's not talk about it." And then I went in the world – I was in Budapest, I was in Praha. I got the people together, with a lot of people. And people who saw that I am a survivor, they were interested, just like you. You know? They wanted to know.

Q: I am talking about your children, when they were small.

A: My children – no, I never talked to them. No. I would never hurt them. And telling stories like that? No.

Q: The first years that you were in Israel, did you have many memories of your childhood? You were thinking about home? Your parents?

A: Well, we are always…as of now I am thinking always of my home town, how happy we were there, all of us together. And it was a very poor life, according to this stage, where we got now. And I think it was beautiful. It was very nice. Sure, we never forget our home town usually.

Q: Did you hear about, after the war, did you hear about, or follow, the Nurenberg trials of the Nazi criminals?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you read about it? Follow it?

A: Yes, we knew everything.

Q: And then in 1960, when Eichmann was caught?

A: Yes, of course, of course. They brought him here, no?

Q: Did you follow the trial, here in Jerusalem, of Eichmann?

A: No. I left it to the Jews and to America.

Q: You were still in Israel then.

A: He was here, they brought him here.

Q: No, I mean you were here in Israel.

A: I was in Israel probably.

Q: It was in the '60s.

A: I knew that they would punish him. Whatever he got is not enough.

Q: yes, but what I mean, did you follow, did you listen.

A: Yes, sure.

Q: You listened on the radio?

A: Yes, of course. We knew what was going on. We were talking. It was after the war. We were already interested more about everything because we were so – I don't want to say the word – that we didn't know anything.

Q: And who was your community? Your new community in Israel was orthodox Jews?

A: Orthodox, yes.

Q: In Bnei Brak?

A: Yes, in Bnei Brak.

Q: You were associated with Chassidic?

A: Yes. My own family was very Chassidic.

Q: In Israel too?

A: Yes, very much.

Q: Connected with the Satmar, or?

A: No, Satmar, I wasn't connected.

Q: With whom?

A: Satmar, the rebbe was here once. I have family from all kinds of Chassidim. You know?

Q: And you yourself, your family was connected, here in Israel, with Chassidim?

A: Not with the Satmar rebbe because the Belzer rebbe was already more their rebbe, you know, the (?). They were having a fight here in Israel. The Satmar rebbe and the Belzer rebbe.

Q: After that, there was in Israel also the big question about compensation money from Germany.

A: Yes.

Q: Did you follow that? What did you think about it? Argument for and against?

A: I followed it. I didn’t ask never anything from them. My husband got twenty-five percent from them. He got it. You know? And now they are going to give for people who never got. Okay? In '95, here, there were offices opened up in Tel Aviv. A few. There are more now. You know? And they were writing in the paper and talking about it, so we went all and gave our names. Since then I get from the Nitzolei Shoah every three months eight hundred and eight Euros.

Q: I was asking more in terms of the debate that was going on.

A: The debate was too bad, what it was here. My sister one hundred percent sick and she didn't get…

Q: Those arguments – people for and people who said you shouldn't get close to it, and people who said we have to take. I was just wondering if the whole debate was something that you were debating.

A: No, we would take the money from them. Why not? Let them pay. You know, it has nothing to do. I think it is, but some other people…I have a friend from my town, sent me all the papers. She said she doesn't want to take anything. She made it legal, but nobody would give me anything.

Q: And how did you feel during the years living in Israel? Being an Israeli.

A: Oh, wonderful, wonderful. We felt we are free, we are home. It's a different life. Israel was our life. We were always dreaming about Israel, to come here. Even though, when we went to America, we thought we would come back pretty soon, but it took us a little time.

Q: When did you go to America and what were the circumstances? Why did you go?

A: I have a cousin here and he had a store, and he wanted my husband to give right away work. "Let's come. Let's be there in Cleveland."

Q: He lived in Cleveland?

A: In Cleveland.

Q: So he suggested that you come there.

A: Yes. So we had parnossa right away. We had nothing to worry. I thought okay, let's go. We'll see America. We'll come back anyway.

Q: How old were the children?

A: The children. My son was…How old, Rina? No, you shouldn't talk. I think that…I wouldn't remember really. Six years is between my children, the difference.

Q: They were still in school, yes?

A: I can't count so fast. They went to school, to the Hebrew Academy. My son went to the "Telshe (sp?) Yeshiva".

Q: This was in Cleveland.

A: In Cleveland, Ohio. And from there he went to Chicago and in Chicago he met his wife.

Q: And so you lived in America for about ten years?

A: We lived in America twenty-six years.

Q: Twenty-six years?

A: My husband went into business. He had a furniture warehouse. He sold through the people. And if I stay one year, I would make more than I made in the whole twenty-seven years. But we wanted to come already.

Q: So you lived the whole time in Cleveland?

A: Yes. I never liked America. From the beginning. People weren't religious. People were different. It's not Israel. I was unhappy for a long time.

Q: But you belonged to an orthodox community?

A: My heart belonged to the orthodox.

Q: And there was no orthodox community there?

A: There were, but most of the people after the war, if they didn't have children, weren't so frum. When they had children, they went to school, and the children came home and said, "How come you tell me to keep shabbos and you don't keep shabbos?" And the men were working shabbos, you know. This is how they got. You know, they go in (?) now, which I know from Cleveland.

Q: So when did you come back to Israel?

A: To Israel we came back in '84.

Q: In '84. What made you come back?

A: Because we always wanted to come back. And my son also came with us, together. A year later he was here also, and then my daughter made aliyah and they are here.

Q: When you came back, where did you go? When you came back to Israel, where did you live?

A: Where would I live? I lived in…We bought a house.

Q: Where?

A: This house we bought. I've been thinking, excuse me. (end of side)

Q: United States, Israel, to this house in Kfar Saba.

A: To this house. A year earlier we bought it and they built it.

Q: And your son and daughter also made aliyah.

A: They also made aliyah, yes.

Q: Each one of them got married. Tell us their names, to whom they got married, and the names of their children.

A: Well, my daughter is divorced all these years.

Q: Her name is?

A: Esther Grey. She has a son.

Q: What is his name?

A: His name is Avi. He is in Atlanta.

Q: How old is he?

A: He is thirty-one. We have a picture here of him too.

Q: Okay. And your son got married to?

A: To Rina Rosen.

Q: And they have some children?

A: They have three children.

Q: What are their names?

A: The name is Davi.

Q: He is the oldest?

A: Yes, the oldest. Ilana.

Q: How old is the oldest one?

A: The oldest is, I think, around thirty, thirty-one.

Q: Okay. And then?

A: Ilana is twenty-seven, twenty-eight. And Nicole is sixteen.

Q: And Ilana is the one who is married?

A: Ilana is the one who is married and she has my dolly.

Q: Your great-granddaughter. What is her name?

A: It’s Maya Ahuva. She is my life. I have somebody to live for.

Q: That is wonderful. And so you came back to Israel. And then at a certain stage in the ‘90s you went back to Budapest.

A: Yes.

Q: Why did you go to Budapest?

A: Because my husband wanted to do some business there. I didn’t agree. He was already too old and I found out that he lost his memory.

Q: What business was he running there?

A: A hotel.

Q: Do you want to tell us something about that hotel?

A: I don’t think I should talk about it.

Q: You don’t feel like talking about the hotel.

A: I don’t know. People think we got rich. I got ruined my whole life in the hotel.

Q: You weren’t happy.

A: I wasn’t happy at all there.

Q: It was a hotel for…

A: The Jews were very happy, who had to come to Budapest – they have a Jewish place. Let’s put it this way. But we didn’t gain anything from there.

Q: And you were living in Budapest or here?

A: I was living there. I was the manager, and if you look at me, that I was the manager, you could know how good I could manage. I didn’t manage good. The goys, all of them, were stealing. All of them.

Q: How was it to live in Budapest during these years after Communism and after all the changes?

A: It wasn’t my idea, I am telling you. My husband went there and I didn’t know he was sick. I was left to find out when everything was gone. I don’t know if Rina told you something. I had in the bank money. The house – they could take away my half a house.

Q: And did you feel in Budapest…were you connected with the community there?

A: I was connected. We had to get kosher things through the community. Yes. Always.

Q: Did you feel any anti-Semitism the past years?

A: With the community we didn’t feel, but they were funny people. They were different. Somehow the Hungarian people were jealous of all Jews who came from outside. I don’t know why. They had a chance to do the same thing. We weren’t used to such a primitive life. They were still living.

Q: Did you go again to visit your home town, Chust, since you left?

A: No, I didn’t want to go. I had chances. A lot of people went from there, from the hotel. A lot of people. I had a lot of chances.

Q: Did you children go?

A: No. Not yet. But they may go some day. Maybe. I don’t know. In the meantime, my story ended very sad. But thank G-d, I made it, I am here. I have children and grandchildren.

Q: You came back to Israel in 2006.

A: Yes. And my husband died two years ago. In this month.

Q: After you came back.

A: Yes.

Q: We’ve reached the end of the interview, but I still want to ask you if there is…

A: You can ask me anything you want.

Q: When you look at your life, back…

A: If I look at my life back, that it’s gone very fast. I was thinking that I came home from Budapest and I will be able to renew my house because it is still so old already, and I will have a few years with my husband to live. And he didn’t live to see that, what I predicted. He knew already what was happening, before he died he said, “Money. I would like to tell you something. I love you very much.” I don’t know how to express it. We had a very good life together. My children were disappointed. They thought that I knew he was sick. I never knew he was sick. Whatever I told him to do, “Give that money to the children” or for the wedding, he gave it to someone else. He was very easy to give away money and I didn’t know. And I never thought with the millions of people which it happens a thing like that, it will happen to me. So I said to myself, “Maybe I (?)”. I said that if he wants to, he can always give it back. And that’s my life. I have to put it behind, and I have to live my life. I went to the doctors – I was pretty sick when I came back. And I tried to get the best care of myself and I am trying, I am continuing. I don’t want to be a burden on my children.

Q: And when you think about your parents and your family today?

A: Of my parents and my family? This is over. I couldn’t do anything. I couldn’t make them alive. I couldn’t help anything. What do you think? What is your opinion? What should I feel?

Q: Only you can think.

A: At a simcha or something, I always, the first simcha when I got married, what I thought, that my parents didn’t live to see that I am happy, because I was very happy. He was a very good man. He not only helped me, my whole family. He was very good. But it looks like the war got on him, you know?

Q: So when you have happy occasions, in the family, when you celebrate, you always remember your family?

A: Always remember. I had my wedding, and I was in half a dream. I thought I saw there my father. I didn’t want to open my eyes. You know? We had a wedding with a hundred people because I wanted to give to the poor people a good lunch. There were a lot of Jews who didn’t have what to eat in Budapest. Old people. You know? I didn’t want to wake up. I wanted to be under the chuppah with that thought, that my father came to my wedding, because they say the parents come to the wedding, the neshama (soul). This is how I heard it at home. What else?

Q: I want to thank you.

A: I thank you very much. You were wonderful.

Q: …for Yad Vashem. And I wish you all the best, good health and lots of nachas from your family.

A: Thank you.

Q: Thank you.

A: Thank you very much for you and for…what is his name?