חיים Mile פינקס

Name of Interviewee: Haim Pinkas

Name of Interviewer: Mirian Aviezer

Cassette Number: VT-2739

Date: June 1, 2000

Name of Typist: Cheryl Balshayi

Names:

Beograd

Rogatica

Mostar

Hercegnovi

Kavala

Pristina

Ferramonti

Aprika

Roma

Provincio di Sondrio

Madrid

Puerto Cabello

Q: (Hebrew) June 1, 2000. Interviewing Pinkas Haim. Interviewer Miriam Aviezer. Pinkas Haim was born in 1919 in Beograd in Yugoslavia. The interview will be in English. (English). Mr. Pinkas, we would like to take you back to your childhood and ask you to give us a background of your family and everything you know and everything you were told about.

A: Well, as you already said, I was born in 1919. That was the first generation after the First World War. Of course, this was due to the fact that my father was a prisoner-of-war and my mother was a refugee in Serbia. So they met again after the war and I was the product of that meeting, of course.

Q: Where were they from?

A: Both of them were born in Belgrade, both of them. As a matter of fact, if I have to go back, if we start with the people of my family, my father’s family evidently came from Bulgaria. I believe from Vidin. As a matter of fact, I was told even that the name Pinkas was found on some tombstones along the Danube even from the 8th century, so probably it was from “Romaniots”. On my mother’s side, the family I couldn’t trace much longer than the beginning of the 18th century, and that was from the, in Belgrade, very well-known family Mevorach. I don’t know whether I should start with the father or the mother and how much it is interesting for you, because you asked about my childhood and I am talking about my family.

Q: Did you ever meet your grandparents?

A: I had only one surviving, when I was born, one surviving grandmother, Bulisa, on my mother’s side. All the others, her husband, had passed away, I believe, at the beginning of the century. My father’s father, my grandfather Pinkas, I was told passed away in 1914, when the first cannon from Zemun across Belgrade really started the war, or the First World War. So I loved my grandmother and my grandmother was, in the whole family, very well known, very dynamic lady. There are many things, I would say, probably what I inherited. I like to imagine that it probably comes from her side. That was a very large family, Mevorach. There are some still living. My grandmother had, I believe, about four or five sisters and two brothers. It will take us a long time if I continue describing that family.

Q: But sometimes a grandmother had a big influence.

A: Definitely. She was very dynamic, very lovable. I used to play cards with her and would cheat her and she detested that and so on. But her influence really was mostly in a very positive attitude to the life that she had. But coming back to my childhood, the first thing that I remember, I was put in a French kindergarten when I was four or five years old. And from there I still have some of the friends that accompanied, had a similar history, and some are still alive, some in Belgrade and some all over the world. The childhood I don’t remember much, but it is not only because of my age. I just, last November, was eighty. Of course, the memory is failing, but I don’t believe that I remember too many things from my childhood. Of course, probably I should say that my father had a store in the centre of Belgrade, very centre of Belgrade, which he inherited from his father. My grandfather used to be a tailor and he was dealing in men’s clothing, and my father inherited it and then continued with the ladies’ apparel.

Q: So that was textile? What did he have?

A: No, not textiles. Ready-made clothing. The store was about eight blocks from the place where I was born, which we occupied for many years after my birth. We never had our own house. We always lived in rented apartments, more or less within two or three blocks. We moved about two times, as a matter of fact, and always within a few blocks. My father was – and that is maybe important – he had five sisters and he was the youngest. Of all the sisters which I remember, only one was not widowed. One was still single and the others were all widows, and I remember that he had to help financially most of them, which I suppose, I didn’t know the financial situation, but must have been quite a load for him.

My father was a very serious man in the expression of his face. He had a very dry humour. Those that knew him better liked him very much, but most of the people were afraid of him. As a kid, I had a lot of respect. As a matter of fact, I remember that my mother maybe gave me a few punishments, physical punishments, let’s call it, whereas my father only once or twice. But the regard, his eyes were already sufficient to put me in order because really I was very obedient, but on the other hand, it seemed that I was always full of mischief, so there are quite many stories. This is the only thing from my very young youth.

Q: You were the only child?

A: I was the only child. And probably that has left some kind of special characteristics to my character. I had quite a few cousins. With some I did maintain relations that we would….They were all older than I was because my mother, on my mother’s side, she had three sisters and two brothers, but she was the youngest. I didn’t mention. The difference between…my father was born in 1881 and my mother in 1891, so there was a ten-year difference, and by my mother being the youngest, of course most of my cousins were older than I was. Most of those that I used to play with perished in the Holocaust one way or the other.

Q: So what would you say? Who had more influence on your education? Your father, your mother, or maybe somebody else?

A: Probably both, probably both. My mother was known as a very sweet person. I was told in younger time and older that she was not beautiful, but she was very good-looking. And as being the only child, of course, they both worried quite a bit. I remember as a student when I used to come home late in the morning, or early in the morning, three or four o’clock, I would still find my mother who was awake, waiting for me to return. But your question, who had most influence on my forming, or my education, I believe everything. I couldn’t spot, I couldn’t indicate anybody in particular really. Now, looking back, because it does not mean that I did anything positive in that respect, but in my memory my grandmother stays as most…the figure that I remember most. Although the contact was not very frequent, she used to visit us once or twice a week.

Q: How would you describe yourself as a child? Were you obedient or were you a little bit….how to say?

A: No, no. They had problems with finding me many times because I would disappear as a child. They couldn’t find me because I would go…I remember once, as a child we were taken to Elijah, which is a spa near Sarajevo, and my mother was sitting in a cafe with her friends and I was there and all of a sudden I disappeared. It seems that there was a boy who was chasing his geese and I took also to him and followed him until the next village and it took the police to find me. And there are a few accounts like that of my very young days.

I would like to mention something now just as a parentheses – that we’re doing all this in English because, as a matter of fact, we would like our grandchildren of course to know a little bit more, although I did, we did, both my wife and I, write something in Spanish when our first granddaughter was born. But at this time we have grandchildren whose mother language is Spanish and the others whose mother language is French, so the English is the only common language between the next generation.

Q: Yes, and it’s for us also.

A: I just wanted to mention this.

Q: Well, but we are going back to your childhood. Still I would like to know about your friends, about your environment.

A: I used to go the elementary school, to the primary school, a school which was considered to be the best and it was next to the orthodox cathedral, to the (?). I had very good teachers whom I remember. I believe that we had excellent, really, influence from them. And that was practically on the other part of the town. The high school also. And I must say that many times when I used to dream after the schooling and we were already living in Venezuela and I would dream about the schools. It was always – which is very unusual – that they were pleasant dreams about my old professors, my friends and so on, which is, I believe, very unusual. We had excellent professors and I would say that culturally, those professors left on me a very important, very significant impression. We had, for instance, as a headmaster a professor in mathematics who followed us for eight years and who knew us and loved us, and he always showed that. We had an excellent Latin professor, who developed very much liking for the Roman history especially, and so on. That is, I believe, an interesting feature because normally it is not the case.

Q: Yes, well, I don’t remember any of my teachers!

A: As far as the Jewish life - and I believe this is a very important part – I must tell you that in Serbia there was very little anti-semitism. For instance, in high school, in the class of twenty-eight, there were only two Jews – another friend and I. In the first class of the elementary school, when the teacher wanted to identify us and everybody was telling his personal data, we were taught to say that we are Serbs of Jewish religion, or Mosaic religion.

Q: Did you also feel like this?

A: We did feel. We did feel the Jewish part was in it, but not very tangible. The whole environment…we were not assimilated, but I would say that we were very identified at that time with the Serbian history. We didn’t feel any kind of difference between us and other orthodox Serbian friends. As I told you, of all my friends, and even girlfriends, they were all Serbs, except that friend that I mentioned. In the family, of course, the tradition was conservative. No pork came into our house. My grandmother spoke with my mother and my father sometimes Ladino. She spoke it very well. I learned quite a few words. Even when I was thirteen I tried to make like a small dictionary, Serb-Ladino. And of course later in life it helped us because we immigrated into a Spanish-speaking country. My father was involved in some of the Jewish activities. I know that he was on the board and I believe treasurer of Society…(?), which used to support the students, poor students’ activities.

Q: Scholarships.

A: Yes. Scholarships.

Q: What do you remember from some Jewish holidays that you celebrated?

A: Well, we celebrated at my home not very often, but we had a few Pesach, a few “seders” in my home. But mostly it was at some family, other family who had more children than my parents had. I used to, I remember, together with some cousins, we used to, at the end of Yom Kippur, go to the synagogue to fetch our grandmother. In high school we had, once a week we were going to the Jewish school where we had evidently not very efficient education in Hebrew, but very good history professor. And that was the only part of formal Jewish education that we had.

Q: Did you go sometimes to the community there, to some activities?

A: Very little. I personally very little because since my very early high school times, I was mostly involved in sports, especially athletics where, when I was fifteen, I had then unofficial Balkan record as a sprinter. Later also I continued also with tennis and swimming. I was singing in the choir in high school…I don’t know whether we’re already at the university or not, chronologically of course. I’m jumping from one side to the other. Maybe you had another question that you’d like to ask.

Q: Well, something a little bit more about your youth. What did you like to do except sports? Did you like to read?

A: Yes, reading, that’s correct. And I did mention that since I was seven I had piano lessons. I studied ten years, got medium. I wouldn’t say that I was good, very good, but I participated in concerts at the conservatorium, as well as when the high school had events I had, of course, to play. So also I was exposed to music since very early days.

Q: Did you like it?

A: I liked it very much. The only thing is I have a problem because my audio memory is very bad. My memory is only photographic. And up to this day I don’t retain even the names when somebody is introduced to me.

Q: But could you describe for us a little bit about the general atmosphere in the school, in the streets of Belgrade like I say, when you were twenty?

A: What I would say generally, that as probably also the histories show, I lived in that period between the two world wars. That was very short, when you look back at it, but we have spent, of course, my early life until I was twenty-two when the war broke out - especially in Yugoslavia which was already another story if we start how we escaped - but very carefree. And when I say carefree, it would also…probably I should say, except I remember reading in the papers about the crash of ’29 and then all the conversation about that. And then, of course, in ’33 when already the story of the Nazis started. Of course that was not eventful. But otherwise, as our lives in the family, in the school, I don’t remember anything of magnitude that I could describe. Except something harmonic. There were no conflicts that I remember, neither at home. In school, high school, no. Of course, in university it was already a different story.

Q: You started university when? In which year?

A: As I started the whole schooling one year earlier then because I was born in November, so most of my colleagues were one year older than I was. I started schooling at six, when I was six, so that in ’37, when I took my high school graduation, I was only one year ahead. I started university in 1938 in law. I decided to take law studies because ideally I had some inclination for technical things and my original idea was that after finishing the law studies, to take up the “technicum” and dedicate to patent law. Of course, all of this didn’t work out. The other advantage of studying law was that during the law years I could also finish my military service. And I did finish the school of cavalry near Belgrade in the year ‘39-40, just when the war started. Especially very depressing in our military year was May, 1940, when France collapsed and we were very much affected, of course.

Q: But would you tell a little bit about the atmosphere at the university?

A: Yes, it’s very curious, but there the differentiation between different inclinations started. Some went into the political organization and I, through my music background, went to the choir which was the best in the country and one of the best in Europe at that time – called by the name of “Obilitch”, who is a national hero, Serbian national hero – which didn’t have any kind of political tendency. But musically very active. As a matter of fact, in my first year in ’38 we sang as an “oratorium” “Parsifal” from Wagner. In ’38 also we had a “tournee” in France that took about three weeks, which was really very spectacular.

Q: But in these years, ’38, ’39, ’40, already many organizations, many movements started with some illegal activities.

A: Of course I had quite many friends that were incorporated. It’s curious that in my generation I don’t remember, but those that are older than I, I have friends older than I who had joined “Hashomer Hatzair”, whereas my generation and then further younger generations I don’t know whether many really joined, as far on the Jewish side. At the university, of course, there were some that were identified with the communist movement, which was, of course, illegal. And the nationalistic, reactionary movement was very, very small, although there was one, but they were not prominent. Mostly it was to the left more than to the right, but in our group, singing, there were no indications that any of ours were very prominent in any of the political movements.

Q: Did you take part in any of them?

A: No, I did not belong to any of the political groups. We belonged to the musical choral society.

Q: And in the Jewish activities?

A: No, not in Jewish. As a matter of fact, in “Obilitch” we had quite a few Jewish students who were also singing. They were like I was, on a neutral basis. I must admit that our inclination was more to the liberal or left side, the right side being, of course, the fascist. I didn’t take part in any of the Jewish events because I was mostly identified with the sports and the musical part at university.

Q: But your parents, they were also not involved in the activities? Your parents, father and mother.

A: My mother was active in WIZO, of course. My father was not a member of “Bnai Brith”, as I told you, but he was active in “Potpura”.

Q: Humanitarian.

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember maybe the “Keren Kayemet” box?

A: Yes, of course. The “Keren Kayemet” box was always at home since I was young. I don’t remember since when, but it was always there.

Q: Did it have any meaning to you when you saw on this box the map of Palestine?

A: As a matter of fact, I have to tell you, now that you asked the question. I didn’t think of it for a long time. We had to prepare for the Jewish Sunday school, if you can call it, because it was only once – I had to prepare a work that I did very well on Jordan at that time.

Q: On the River Jordan or on…?

A: No, no. On the Hebrew side. What we called the “milgar”, which is the Hebrew Sunday school.

Q: I know, but the work you prepared about Jordan. What do you mean?

A: Jordan. It was called “TransjordaMia”. This is not Jordan, it’s “TransjordaMia”, because it was about what was Palestine and “TransjordaMia”. Historical, geographical essay. I didn’t think of it for a long, long time, but now that you mentioned it…

Q: It is interesting that they were asking you to do such a work. Did you know of something?

A: No, no. I was given books, of course. I had where to get the material.

Q: What was the image of Palestine for you?

A: At that time I don’t believe we ever considered an “aliyah” or leaving. At that time, as I told you, between the two wars, the life was – and I believe in most of the middle class segment – nobody was thinking of a change. Why would one change? Especially when there was no anti-semitic pressure and there was no ideological inspiration. Most of the people that I knew that were in our environment didn’t think, didn’t get into the Zionist movement. Actively, I mean. We knew, of course, about it, but we didn’t participate or did not feel that we would go and do something positively for it. Except, of course, the “Hashomer Hatzair” tha combined the political, the ideological with national.

Q: Did you ever think about how does it look, Palestine? What was the life there.

A: I don’t believe that our curiosity at that time…You know, when you are young, sixteen or seventeen years, unless really you have concrete inspiration or stimulus, I don’t believe that we were very much involved.

Q: And except for music and sport, were there other fields that you were interested in?

A: No. I believe as far as having a look at the future, I don’t believe that I ever got out of the panorama in which we lived. Of course, when 1939 the war came, it was pretty evident from today’s point of view, but at the time, that something would have to change. We were conscious that there were refugees from Austria, especially from Austria, and how bad it was, but in a very short-sighted way, although everybody was talking about it and many were helping in many ways. We didn’t somehow, we were blind enough – I suppose even my father and mother with the rest of their friends – what we should do if we got into the same kind of condition.

Q: Did you think about this at all?

A: No, no. They did certainly discuss it, but we, the younger people, were more carefree, without getting deeper into the probable problems or the future, which was imminent. We participated, I mean the whole story for us started in ’41.

Q: But I would like to go back because it is really interesting to know a young person like you, a student, an intellectual – probably you are at least reading about what is going on, about Hitler coming to power, the “Anschluss”. Did you discuss this with your friends? Not yet the danger…

A: I don’t believe at home it was mentioned. It wasn’t discussed because it was, if you take it psychologically, maybe we were trying to flee to avoid disagreeable subjects. My memory is not so good. I remember that there was the consciousness of what was happening, but I don’t know remember concrete reactions or concrete discussions about it, what you wanted to know. I couldn’t be very specific about it.

Q: Even when the refugees started coming? Did you meet any of them?

A: No, no. Through Belgrade there much fewer than through Zagreb, and there was a group in “Shabatz”, which is also a place as you know. But in Belgrade I believe I had one contact with a young boy who came through Belgrade, that I met through an aunt of mine who was in their home, and that was my personal, the only contact that I had then. He was, temporarily only, in the house of my aunt, my father’s sister, whose husband was very prominent in the community and he was, of course, much more active in all regards, although very much identified with Serbs.

Q: Tell me, did you like to go to cinema at that time?

A: Number one, when I was very small – not very small, probably seven, eight years old. It started like this, because my father would take me for a long walk on Sunday mornings and then on some Sundays he would take me to the movies.

Q: But when you were already a student, I mean.

A: No, not a student. That was when I was a boy. Maybe I was ten.

Q: Why I am asking is because usually…I was wondering if you went to the cinema in the year ’40, for example, because they were giving also a journal before the picture.

A: Yes. We used to go to movies and probably the effects of the Nazi times and the Nazis did affect us when we saw it.

Q: But did you see it? Was it in journal?

A: Yes, certainly, certainly. I don’t remember it distinctly, but I suppose it would have been unavoidable to see it.

Q: But was there impression of a danger that was approaching?

A: I can tell you that the danger - and it got so far - that the dangers of the Nazism were not grasped to all the extents. And this is why I mentioned ’41 - now we have to jump - because when I decided to get away from Belgrade in ’41 I asked my parents to come with me. My father said, “What? I should leave here?” Very stupid thing for him to say, now, looking back. “Because all my forefathers were born here. They’ll make me work. I’ll go maybe hard work. I’ll do it.” Nobody at that time had the faintest idea of the genocide that was being prepared.

Q: I know that nobody knew that at the beginning of ’41.

A: We didn’t get into that danger psychosis. We didn’t feel it, we didn’t grasp it. It was an error, of course. We see it now. But we didn’t take it as seriously as we should have.

Q: Even not on the 27th of March?

A: No. This is what I wanted to say. First of all, I have to tell you something which is rather funny because before that, in 1940, at the end of 1940 Yugoslavia signed an agreement, a pact of eternal friendship with Hungary. In February, ’41, our choral society was invited to go to Budapest and we gave two concerts of the Belgrade University in Budapest. That was in February, ’41. Only, as you know, a couple of months later the whole thing started, with March 27th “putsch”, in which all students participated actively and the first sacked was the Lufthansa agency which was known as a…

Q: That was the 27th. Describe for us what happened.

A: The 27th of March was the consequence of the fact that the government of Svetkovich signed an agreement with Germany which would have had quite a consequence for the future of Yugoslavia. Most of the people, especially in Serbia, had very strong negative feelings for Germany. Only a few days later, the “putsch” did change the government and a new government…not a new government. Not to go into the political history…Anyway, the government was overthrown and King Peter was named – although he was still underage….

Q: And the people marched on the streets.

A: Yes, of course. There was absolute exuberance all over Belgrade. I know only about Belgrade because I was there and most were on the street. Not only students. Everybody, singing and…

Q: And saying that it was better before…?

A: Yes. You mean you want to repeat is better war than…. (not clear). What I do remember, of course, much better was the 6th of April, the bombardment of Belgrade, which came on a Sunday at seven o’clock. About six we already heard something on the radio. We didn’t know exactly from BBC. But at seven o’clock we started hearing very high airplanes. I don’t know how to describe the noise that we heard. And a few minutes later the bombs started to explode in Belgrade. I was at home with the parents. I put on immediately the uniform and wanted to try to get to some kind of a military command or detachment to whom I could belong because my place was across the “Salla” at the cavalry school. When we got there they didn’t have place for us. The bombardment continued for a few days. I did lose a few friends from the university in those days. And started to go down looking for a place where we could find some detachment with which we could really offer our resistance to the Germans. It didn’t take long – only eight days – from the 14th of April the government capitulated and the Germans took over, ran over with the tanks. I at that time found myself in “Rogatica”, which is a small place near “Vichograd”, which is on the border between Serbia and BosMia. By sheer coincidence, at night, when we arrived to Rogatica, we were looking and we got some families who accepted us, because we were just a group. We were not a regular detachment. And by coincidence, I got with a cousin of mine who was with me in a house which proved to be a home of a Jewish family. We just had “seder” because it was Pesach time. Of course, we were very happy of the coincidence. The sad part is that a few weeks later, when the Ushtashis took over, we heard that most of those families – there were only seven or eight families in Rogatica which is a small place – of course were massacred, were killed. Most of those families.

I returned, I was in uniform and I returned to Belgrade because I left my parents in Belgrade.

Q: You were in the uniform of a regular…?

A: Of the regular Yugoslav army.

Q: Royal.

A: Royal. There was nothing but royal.

Q: At that time.

A: No, until then there was only royal army. We never thought royal, but Yugoslav army. I returned to Belgrade and standing, of course, the regular train service wasn’t at all established. It took me almost two days, standing on one foot, to get to Belgrade. Then I found that my parents, when the bombardment after April 6th continued, they also left Belgrade for Sarajevo. And they returned from Sarajevo to Belgrade too, looking for me because we didn’t know that we were so close, as a matter of fact. This was the time when in Belgrade I was very lucky because I was walking through the streets from the station to a nearby apartment of a Jewish friend of mine in uniform and I was not taken prisoner, because most of the time….but getting off the train we read, of course, the inscriptions on the walls about the Jewish people who have to inscribe and they should wear the star and so on. But I was lucky to get to the apartment of my friend and to change clothes there. So I found my family, my parents didn’t go back to their apartment because it was partially affected by the bombardment, but to an uncle of mine, a brother of my mother, where they stayed and I stayed with them for the whole time under the occupation, until the time that I left. Now, at that time, we were all…most of the physically capable people were gathering every morning at a place which is called “Stashmeidan”, behind the cathedral of San Marco. And from different quarters of Belgrade the people came to ask for help to clean the debris of the bombardment. One day…well, I was taken two or three times, but one day, from the nearby police station which was the central traffic police, a policeman came to ask also for a few young people to help them physically and he recognized me because he used to be stationed in front of my father’s store. So he took me to the traffic police and I stayed there for quite many weeks because they asked whether I could do something else. I repaired all their telephone system as, you know, my father was very good at everything. He could repair and I believe I inherited that talent.

Q: So they took you to the police?

A: To the police station. Every night we would go back home.

Q: They took you to the police station for work?

A: For other work, but then he kept me for repairing, and I made the whole telephone installation because they were also hit by the bombs. A few days later also, because the Gestapo headquarters had a need also to have a telephone expert. And they sent me there, although I wasn’t any expert, but I was pretty good in finding solutions, maybe not always professional, I’m not sure. And I was going there, always with my star on the arm. Nobody ever, or the Germans told me anything bad. I didn’t feel very comfortable, of course, but it was a time that somehow I felt protected because I was in the headquarters of the Gestapo.

Q: How did you feel when you had to go with the yellow star?

A: I didn’t feel well – not because I was indicated as a Jew, but mostly because we were fearing that some of the German soldiers could do harm to us. It wasn’t a good feeling because in some cases some of the population would sneer at us and say, “Look at those Jews.” But in very few cases. On the other hand, I personally had two or three occasions when I met some of my colleagues from the university mostly, or from the sports who, in seeing that I was wearing, would come toward me, kiss me and say how sorry they were, what happened. So you see it was ambiguous situation.

Q: Did you have the feeling that it would become worse for you?

A: No, we were thinking – I especially, the younger people – were thinking how we shall escape, how to get away. The decisive moment on June 22nd, when Germans invaded Russia, because we didn’t think about the persecution as Jews, but that probably the German would think that now the students would be the source of demonstrations. And I thought that probably, although I wasn’t involved in any of the very active student organizations except in “Obilitch”, I decided the time had come for me to try to escape.

Q: Alone?

A: No. A cousin of mine who was also going to the “Stashmeidan” for the work – I got a permit for him. For a few thousand dinars at that time we could get a paper from Zemun, which is across, to travel.

Q: Across the bridge?

A: Across the bridge. Well, we took the boat, but anyhow, from Zemun. And I got a permit for him too. On the very morning where we had an appointment to get together and get down where the boats were – we wanted to take a ship and cross to Zemun – he called me that his parents were really so disturbed, so stressed about the risk of that kind of a trip that he decided to stay and not to go with me, so I left alone.

Q: Your parents approved?

A: This is the time that I wanted to say to my parents that they should also come and do something. They said no, they wouldn’t move. But about that cousin of mine, Medina – a few weeks later, when there was in Smederevo, which is in eastern Serbia, some kind of explosion which was sabotage, the Germans took a hundred Jews, hostages, which were then killed. And among them was my cousin who didn’t come with me.

The trip from Belgrade to Ruma to Bosanski Brod was not bad, but then to Sarajevo I had in a compartment two Ustashi officers, whose conversations were rather disagreeable because they were talking about what they would do to the Serbs when they find them, and so. The worst part – I’m trying to cut it short because there are quite many tales. No, no, no, because we’ll never finish.

Q: I would like to go into details because this part is quite interesting. You all alone were going to Sarajevo. Why to Sarajevo?

A: Not to Sarajevo. No, no. Well, this is my fault. I didn’t tell you what my plan was. A cousin of mine was married with a child and they found refuge. They were already in Hercegnovi, which is on the Dalmation coast. And my intention was to go down there and to join them, not because only they were there, but we knew that under the Italians, the Italian regime was much more friendly than the Germans. So my itinerary was to go to get to Hercegnovi.

Q: Which is Montenegro.

A: I left on June 27th Belgrade, 22nd of June, 27th of June. On the 28th of June “Novinovdan”, which is, as you know, a very important Serbian holiday, we stopped in Mostar and the control, Ustashi control went through asking for the papers. Now, I didn’t give you a very important detail. On my permit to circulate, to circulate as a “Volksdeutscher”, as if I were a part of the German minority, pre-war minority in Yugoslavia. I did give my full, correct formal name – Haim Pinkas – for the very simple reason because we all thought that once one gets to the Adriatic Sea, probably there would be a possibility through the sea, through ships and so on, to get over to other, to the Allied countries and fight against the Germans. (end of side)

A: Coming back to that period after ’38 with the refugees and so on, I just remembered that I had a very close person whom I used to see two or three times a week. He used to be the secretary, born in Frankfurt, a German refugee, very clever, young philosopher by the name of Foelmann (?), who was giving me German lessons. I did intellectually profit very much from him because we read together Goethe, then some of the most popular literature like Ludwig, the biographies and so on. And he was the one who did convey to me the personal sadness of having to be uprooted as he was, looking for new ways of life. The only thing he had, he used to smoke very stinking tobacco cigars. That was one of the negative things. Yes, he did quite a lot for me intellectually and also in the sense of opening my eyes what was happening in Germany.

Q: What did he tell you about what was going on….?

A: No, because especially he was telling about how the German Jews were always so nationalistic, so patriotic, and then finally it came out that they were not accepted and that they were Jews because the Nazis, of course, told them so.

Q: You started to describe to us your escape?

A: That was an important part of my documentation, because I had a paper that allowed me to travel as a “Volksdeutscher”, that meaning as an ethnic German, with the name Haim Pinkas.

Q: How did you get such a status?

A: By paying a few thousand dinars that wasn’t difficult to get. Probably somebody stole the form, but they had all the stamps and all the possible signatures. But at the same time I took my original passport with the name Haim Pinkas because I thought if at any time I would manage to get away from Yugoslavia, I would need a regular passport and I didn’t want to take the risk that if somebody found on me two documents with different names, I preferred to take the risk of having a Jewish name as an ethnic German. And, as a matter of fact, in Mostar – this is where my story of the trip to Dalmatia stopped – on the 8th of June the Ustashists were controlling the newspapers and they were taking down all the Serbs that they found on the trip and I suppose, because we heard some shots later, that they were shot right near the train. When my turn came, the controller, who was a young Ustashi boy asked me, “Where are you from?” I said, “I am from Zemun.” He said, “Not from Zemun. I want to know are you a Croat or a Serb?” At that time, there were negotiations whether Zemun should belong to Croatia or to Serbia, and I said, “I believe will be Croats.” Finally, he said, “No. Are you an orthodox and a Catholic?” And I said, thinking that really that was the end of my days, “No, I am a ‘Moisievac’”, meaning that I am of the Mosaic faith. Because I was afraid that if he was a little bit literate, he would recognize from my name because he had my paper, my travelling paper in his hand. Fortunately, he was illiterate enough not to know what it is and he gave me back the paper and he went away. This is in my life one of the very important moments that really how strangely coincidence can save one’s life.

Q: I would like to ask you only one question. Leaving Belgrade alone, you had to choose a direction. Now, you were choosing to go to an area which was under Italian…

A: (?), knowing that it was under Italian occupation. I said so.

Q: So that is the reason that you took the direction to go to Montenegro?

A: Well, it was Dalmatia. We didn’t know anything about Montenegro. Of course, Hercegnovi is Montenegro, geographically, politically, but I was going to Dalmatia. I was going to a region occupied by Italians. Now, I was going to Hercegnovi because my cousin was there.

Q: Okay, this I understand, but I wanted to know, so you knew already at that time what was the division of Yugoslavia, which parts were under which control.

A: Yes. We knew that Dalmatia was under Italian occupation. There were some, for instance, another of my cousins, Lazar, tried to get to Split, which was also in Dalmatia, and she was caught by the Ustashists and lost her life. That’s Lucy. But, of course, we knew that it was Italy and it was Dalmatia. It was also the sea that probably would be open to be able to escape by the way of some boats, not to Italy, of course, but somewhere else. As kids – of course, we were twenty-two years – the imagination was that probably some British submarines would take us away. You know, the imagination, there is no end, no limit. In Hercegnovi I was not a long time. That was from June until…about a month, because before the end of July, as the shooting in Montenegro started, the Italian authorities decided to take away most of the people who were not resident. Well, a very important detail that was already registered in other places is that in Hercegnovi I met a girl from Zagreb who later proved to be my wife, so from that point on, when the Italians really took all the non-residents from Hercegnovi….

Q: Tell us a little bit more. This is very interesting. How did you meet?

A: Just one evening, one afternoon, as a matter of fact, where the youngsters, mostly Jewish youngsters, of course, who were the only refugees at that time there, some from different parts of Yugoslavia, met at a pastry shop and a group of Zagreb girls and a group of Serbian, or Belgrade, some from Belgrade, some from Sarajevo, we met. As it proved later in our comments about each other, it seems that it wasn’t very attractive for none of us. It wasn’t a mutual attraction that was the first impression between us. But anyhow, that same evening the Italian soldiers started to collect most of the non-residents and put them in a school. It happened also – not in our case, but in the case of the first families that they took away – Mia, my wife, my fiancee, my wife later, was taken under false pretenses by the soldiers that (they) were invited only to be taken to the police to sign some papers, and they were told not to take anything with them because in a few hours they would be back, which was not true because then they put them in a school. Our group of four youngsters from Belgrade, who lived together at that time, were taken also the next day and we found ourselves on the ship, on a very old Yugoslav ship, in Kotor, which is a very beautiful part of the Yugoslav coast, on the Montenegro coast. The boat was very old and we were a group of almost two hundred Jews - I believe there were some who were not Jews, but that was just coincidental – from different parts of Yugoslavia. From Belgrade, from Zagreb, from Sarajevo and from other places in BosMia. That was on July 22, 23, July of ’41. It took us three days on that boat that looked more like a drunken man because it was leaning always to one side. It took us, I believe, almost three days floating down to Durazzo to AlbaMian harbour, which was occupied by Italians since a long time ago, where we were put on trucks and taken to a military camp, soldiers’ camp, in Kavala, near a small place called Kavala. There we were separated, men and the ladies, women, in separate “companonas”, barracks.

Q: Can you describe? It was a camp?

A: It was a military camp for soldiers. I suppose it was not prepared for any kind of refugees or prisoners. They had stacked on three levels the beds, which were not bad, but they were just simple, wooden supports. We were given blankets. They were very, very much invaded by fleas and many of us suffered from those fleas. The elderly people took it much worse. For us, the youngsters, we still didn’t suffer too much. Even at that time we did not realize really the danger that the Italians could really hand us over to the Germans. We didn’t know what our end or our following situation would be. Elderly people suffered more, as I said, than we, the younger people. We even organized some sporting events.

Q: But I would like to ask you. This was really a camp….(?)?

A: It was. Well, we can say it was a concentration camp which was modified, which was not meant probably in the beginning as a concentration camp. I don’t know. At the same time, I must say, on the other side, separately…

Q: Was there wire around?

A: Yes, of course. But they never looked very unfriendly. Even those soldiers they were very friendly with us. On the other side of the camp there was another partition which was occupied by Montenegro people whom they did catch in Montenegro.

Q: Partisans?

A: Some were not partisans. I recognized a friend of mine from the studies who was nationalistic, certainly not communist partisans. But at that time, to Italians most of the young people were, of course, suspect. Probably there were some communists, some nationalists. I don’t believe it was…We didn’t have much access or communication with them.

Q: Well, I would like you really to describe for us this camp. First of all, as far as I understand, it was a real concentration camp, with a wire around.

A: With wire around, with barbed wire around. With a tower. And the soldiers guarded the entrace.

Q: And you could not leave without permission.

A: Yes, but we did leave, we did get, very often we did get a permit to get to…Q: But you had to leave only with permit.

A: Not a written permit. It was just you requested the permit to go to the village, mostly under the excuse to see the dentist…

Q: You could not just walk out.

A: No, you could not walk out, of course. You couldn’t walk out, but we did have a possibility to get out under surveillance and once in the village we were free. We were free to go around. We could even flee, but of course nobody would put at risk the others who were staying at the camp. I don’t remember whether there were any cases of somebody fleeing because there was a possibility of fleeing.

Q: Okay, but you were there in the concentration camp which was run by the Italians.

A: That’s correct.

Q: How many people approximately were you at that time, in the Jewish part?

A: In the Jewish part were a little bit under two hundred people.

Q: From this group?

A: From this…always the same group that was taken from that part of Dalmatia, even from Dubrovnic, I believe.

Q: So the people from Kosovo, from Pristina were not yet…?

A: No, no. Why did you mention Pristina, because now you mention Pristina I must say that when the things got much worse in Belgrade after September, my parents joined a group of Jewish people who wanted to get out through AlbaMia. They did reach Pristina. Some escaped immediately, but most of the group was returned to Belgrade by the Italians.

Q: They were in the group of fifty?

A: I don’t know how many. I don’t have much information about that, and they were then returned to Belgrade and I know that my mother was in Saimishte (?) which was the concentration camp across the river Salve from Belgrade. Saimishte used to be the ground for the fairs, industrial fairs and other fairs. I don’t know at what time she lost her life, probably being taken by those trucks, famous trucks that gassed the people on the way. My father, I was told – I don’t know by whom and who knew – was also shot in one part of Belgrade, “Yaintsi”, which used to be the shooting and driving range of the army. So I lost my parents, I don’t know exactly when, but unfortunately they didn’t…because there were some others of my family who were in the same group and then, as soon as arriving to Pristina, they continued on their own to AlbaMia. But my father was suffering from asthma. He wasn’t in very good health, so probably my mother didn’t want to take the risk and start an adventure, not knowing what would happen, of course, once they were returned to Belgrade. Because you mentioned Pristina.

Q: That is very interesting because that was a very small group that was returned from Pristina to Belgrade. Most of them reached AlbaMia.

A: Yes, most of them reached AlbaMia.

Q: It’s really very sad.

A: And that was in September, October of ’41. Now our Kavala story – we stayed there exactly three months.

Q: Tell us a little bit more because we know so little about this AlbaMia, people that were in AlbaMia. What was the attitude of the Italian people to you and from the AlbaMians?

A: AlbaMians we didn’t have much. There was just a canteen held by AlbaMians who used to sell us some food and some drinks. We met some of the AlbaMians on our trips to the village. The excuse was either to see a doctor or to see a dentist or to buy something. They were rather liberal in letting us go. We didn’t have any kind of unfriendly attitude from the local population, that I remember.

Q: How was the daily life in the camp, from the morning to the evening?

A: The daily life – how was it? How did we fill in the…? I know that there were some sporting, that we used to do some sports. There was a not large, medium group playing checkers. There were some playing cards. There were some there that were painting – that I remember.

Q: Did you get some meal or you had to prepare yourself?

A: In the beginning they used to prepare our meals, but then a committee of our ladies proposed to the authorities that they should, all the materials, give it to them and they would prepare it, which resulted in, of course, tastier food even with the same ingredients, and that worked very well. We were, of course, younger people, we were on the duty to distribute the food or to manipulate the food. It worked very well.

Q: So actually they didn’t interfere very much in your lives.

A: No, not at all. They didn’t interfere. We had to build our own latrines. We had to take, of course, all the products of the latrines outside the camp to throw it away, which wasn’t a very agreeable duty, but we took care of our own lives. There was a small group, of course, a committee, and there were also two persons who spoke very good Italian and who established, as normally is the case in those mystifying situations, the contact with a tailor in Kavala who supposedly had very good contacts with the fascist group, and through whom we were trying to get to know what would happen and to influence their decision to take us over to Italy. And the bad part was when the rain started. Then we had a lot of mud really to face. And at the end of October we…

Q: How long were you there?

A: We were three months, almost exactly to the day three months, because on October 22nd – I wouldn’t remember those dates, but it was always the 22nd: the war started with Russia the 22nd of June, etc. – they loaded us again on trucks, took us to…

Q: But one question more about the camp. When you could organize everything by yourselves, did you have also some social life there?

A: Oh yes. We had some evenings that were some singing, some sketches. Was it singing? Probably there was some singing, some guitar playing. I must say again, which is probably not very proper, that the younger generation took it almost as if it were a summer vacation, with all danger that we didn’t realize. We did spend, until the rains came, very, very well, I mean, relatively well, and we got to know our (?), especially the youngsters. Then the couples started to form and our couple also was formed…

Q: You and your wife, you were one of the couples?

A: We were one of the couples. And we had, of course, very romantic evenings and conversations, so that romantic part, of course, contributed not to feel the pressure of a concentration camp. So we can say that really in our married life, in our family life, Kavala was very important. Of course, at that time still we didn’t know that we would be getting as close. We were flirting a little bit and talking. Mia always reminds me that I said that it was a shame that she was so young. She was seventeen and I was twenty-two. So that part of Kavala for young people was not so bad. It was a little bit more, as I said already twice…the elderly people, of course, did (not?) feel very comfortable. They did realize more than we did the danger and also the fact that they left their homes – who knew what would be – that uncertainty affected them much more than younger people. We did leave our homes, but for young people those homes did not have the same importance as for the elderly.

The next step – I don’t know if you want to know anything else about Kavala. If we did prepare something probably we would have more details.

Q: Do you remember some of the people?

A: Yes, most of the people I do remember.

Q They were mostly from where?

A: They were not all from Yugoslavia. There was only, I believe, one couple that were some refugees with a German name, and a Czech couple.

Q: But the rest, they were from which part of Yugoslavia?

A: But all the rest were either from Sarajevo, from Zagreb or Belgrade. From BosMia, maybe there was somebody else from BosMia, but I don’t know. I would have to go over all the names in order to establish really statistically where they were from.

Q: I understand from what you are saying that you were in good spirits, good mood.

A: Yes, we were in relatively good mood. I tried to get some news, but the communications with the outside world were very difficult, or perhaps were non-existent. I didn’t know anything about my parents. Together with me was the family of my cousin that was in Hercegnovi, with her husband and her daughter, so I had my own family.

Q: And you had your fiancee.

A: And the fiancee’s family, which was also pretty large, pretty complete because Mia was with her parents and she had another cousin with her parents, too, so there were already two couples. And then we had some younger friends whom we knew from before.

Q: And all this is still ’41?

A: This is still ’41. I believe that the interesting part when our emigration really starts. This is when they took us to the boats, to the ships in a convoy across to Bari. On the ship the young people were already starting to figure out in which place who will go with him. We thought that they would now take us and put us in some hotels in the spas in Italy, which did not happen, of course. We got to Bari. In Bari we had a good shower, disinfection shower, and some fruits that we were given. They took us the same day to a place which we never knew or heard of before, which was Ferramonti, Ferramonti in southern Italy, which is Calabria. That was the beginning of November. The single people were put in their own barracks. The families got their own bungalows, their own small…I don’t know how to call them.

Q: Barracks.

A: No, not barracks, because they were separate, they were individual. It happened that Mia’s uncle was in New York and he knew about…I don’t remember exactly in which way it was communicated to them, and he obtained a visa for Cuba for the family, which arrived a few days before Pearl Harbour, before what was December 7th. And on the December 7th – about that date, I don’t know exactly which day – they left the camp, Mia and her cousin, with the parents, left the camp. They were later, we knew they were taken to what they called a “libero confino” in northern Italy, called Aprika. Of course, when we were separated, Mia and I were not very happy, but we hoped that we should be able to join again soon, we hoped. The Italian authorities, of course, were very slow.

Q: Under such conditions, when you have to separate, was it…did you know that she was going to a good place?

A: No, we knew that she would go to a better place than she was in because we knew that she was going to a “libero confino”. I don’t believe really, I don’t remember whether we knew to which one she would be taken.

Q: But you were not concerned…?

A: We were not concerned. We were hopeful, we were very optimistic – maybe it was right or not – but we were very optimistic especially that we hoped that we should either join them, but get out of the camp, which really after three months it happened. In the meantime, there was correspondence…

Q: You are going too fast! I would like to know how you got permission to get out.

A: There were a few channels. One channel, if I remember correctly, was through the commander of the camp. The other was from the outside authorities, and as Mia’s uncle, one of the other uncles, not the one in New York, but one that was with us in Ferramonti, got out earlier – how I don’t know. Probably everybody had to sign an application. I remember that there was a lawyer in Rome who worked for us to get those permits. D’Ambrozio was his name. But Felix, the other uncle, was in Rome and he continued to work on getting the permit, also for me and my family, the Tisches family, my cousin’s family.

We didn’t talk much about the life in Ferramonti because this is also very interesting because we had a musical group, there was quite a lot of social life, etc. But that must have been described by many other people because there were so many that were in Ferramonti.

Q: But I would like to hear from you. The musical group was…?

A: We sang.

Q: Mirsky.

A: Mirsky. Yes, Mirsky was conducting, and it was a very nice concert that we gave, but that was only one. It seems that they had later much more activity.

Q: Well, I have to ask you. I understand, but maybe for others, it is sometimes we cannot imagine ourselves that inside a camp, a concentration camp there is a musical group giving concerts. Can you describe a little bit the life in Ferramonti?

A: Well, the life in Ferramonti – first of all, we were all in barracks, the single people. We used to play a lot of “preference” cards. We did also some exercising, some physical exercising. What else did we do? We did, of course, continue our flirting with our fiancees, if we could call them fiancees at that time. We used to visit families and some families would invite us for lunch because the families could cook their own food. We were on general food.

Q: The Italians didn’t interfere with your lives?

A: No, no, absolutely not. I mean, we had our free life. You couldn’t get out, although there were some people who did get out…some special permits, but otherwise we were there. I believe the correspondence was much easier than in Kavala, the communication with the outside world. Again, there was only one case in our group that one of the young people was returned to Germany – not Germany, but to the Germans – which was Mirko Davidcho who was a communist, but we believed by the denunciation of somebody. It’s too long to go into that. But that was the only case really that somebody really had grave consequences in the camp.

Q: How would you describe the conditions of living in this camp?

A: I would say acceptable. I would say acceptable – not too good, not too bad, but acceptable. And the treatment with the Italian soldiers and the Italians was very good. I don’t know what time it was, but during the… (?) time, the Rome community had sent a set of Torah to the camp for the temple and the “Black Shirts”…

Q: “Camicenere”.

A: “Camicenere” did the honour guard from the train to transport the Torah to the camp.

Q: So you had a synagogue, you had a music group.

A: That’s right.

Q: Everything you had there.

A: Because it was a large camp. I don’t know exactly, but there were about two thousand people or more at the time. I know because until the end of the war Ferramonti was in operation, although quite many people got through Ferramonti then to “libero confino” and out of Italy even, which was our case. Now, when Mia left and I got her address, we used to correspond every day, to write to each other, in Italian, because that was the only way to get very fast because the censorship in any other language would have taken too long. Which was a good experience in practising the language and we still keep it. One of these days we should start rereading them. I tried once and I found that there were many words that now I don’t recognize anymore because I don’t remember what they meant. We were really exercising Italian.

Three months later, in March, we obtained the permits, with my cousin, to go to get to the same place, to Aprika, in “libero confino”. So definitely that must have been the work of that lawyer because otherwise it would have been much of a coincidence. I don’t remember exactly. Probably we would have to consult my wife, whether she remembers something. We were taken by two agents, our small group, through Rome. The agents wanted to visit some of their families, so we were allowed to stay in Rome and I met there also already Mia’s cousin with her parents. Her father was the brother of Mia’s father. We had a long talk because they told us that because Mia didn’t want to leave, because they got – well, that’s now…I have to turn back. Although the Cuban visa was formally not - their Cuban visa and we got also – were not valid anymore because Cuba entered in the war against Germany, Italy and Japan at the same time, being an ally of the United States after Pearl Harbour…I said at one moment that Italian authorities’ bureaucracy worked very slowly. They didn’t realize that that visa was not valid anymore and they let them leave, to get out of Italy on the basis of that visa. Italians in that respect were very liberal because whoever could get a visa for overseas, they would let out. And not only that. At that time, to any immigrant, even a refugee immigrant, they would allow to buy one thousand dollars at the official rate. Official rate was seventeen lira for a dollar, whereas on the black market it was eighty or ninety. Not too many refugees had, of course, enough liras to buy the dollars.

But let me come back to our stay in Rome. I had a long talk with Mia’s uncle and aunt who did tell me that it was not right for Mia not to follow, because they also received, obtained the permit to come to Rome and get out of Italy, but Mia didn’t want and she declared formally she was not leaving without me, very categorically. The miracle was that her parents accepted it and stayed there waiting for me to come. The uncle and Ella, the aunt, induced me, explaining that really I was taking on my shoulders a big risk, that if something happened to them because of me, indirectly, because of Mia’s reluctance to leave without me, that I should really try to convince them that they should leave as soon as possible. And we did – I say “we did” because they constructed with me a telegram asking them if possible not to wait for me, but to leave because of the danger and so on. Of course, Mia, being very categoric that she probably was very mad at me, that I sent that telegram, but I didn’t have a way out.

So I did arrive in Aprika and nothing was happening anymore. We had again very romantic in the time.

Q: Aprika is near what? Near which big town?

A: Aprika was just a village in the mountains, to the north of Milan, that after the war really became a very…a skiing area. There’s Provincio di Sondrio. We had to go – this is why it was called “libero confino” – every day to sign our presence at the police, but that was about all the control that we had. The population was very friendly, especially if we had some money to buy food from them. At that time, the bread was the problem. You could have as much butter as you wanted and even, I believe, meat you could get. Mia and her family lived in an apartment, and I got a room in the same building, in the same house, with another family, so we were rather close. We had a very nice time and we have very good recollections of that period in Aprika. One day, all of a sudden, her father – and that was in June. I arrived in March, and we were again three months also.

Q: ’42?

A: ’42, yes. In June we got an invitation, Mia’s father and I, Hugo and I, to go to the “Christura” in Sondrio. We didn’t know what it was for. We went there and they said, “Well, your application for emigration arrived and you can go to Rome and prepare your emigration papers.” Of course, we were surprised because we thought, correctly, that the Cuban visa could not be valid anymore. On July 1st, Hugo and I, and then later came Mia with her mother – we were in Rome and started to see how we shall get out. At that place a very interesting moment of my story is that we were helped by a German order, Catholic order called San Raffaele, that had their headquarters, until ’38, in Hamburg. It was founded, their objective was to help German people emigrate to Americas. After ’33 they were helping Jewish people emigrate for a long time, and then later, when there were no Jews anymore to help, they moved back to Rome – I said “back”. I don’t know why back. Maybe they were never in Rome, but anyhow, they moved their headquarters to Rome, “Via Depectinari” - I remember the address. The head of the order was “Pater Weber”, and next to him, his assistant, was “Pater Melcher”, a very tall, young, handsome priest, Catholic priest. We approached them because we heard that they were helping for all the formalities for emigration to the Jewish, wherever they came from. Their principle was to help people emigrate, whatever their religion, whatever their political convictions were. The mechanism was that Pater Melcher would take under his vestment passports of the refugees back to Zagreb in Croatia where there was still an old employee of the Uruguayan consulate who had all the stamps. And there they would introduce of course informal visa stamps valid for Uruguay, that everybody knew what was not valid, and he would return them to Rome. In Rome he would obtain from the Red Cross an extension of the passports and from Spanish, the Spanish visa, transit visa for Uruguay. Even the Spanish people knew that Uruguay visa was falsified, I mean, not a valid visa, but being introduced by a Catholic order, they did grant us a visa. This is how many, many Jewish refugees, especially Yugoslav refugees escaped from Italy during the war.

Q: Just a second. When you said the papers were sent back to Zagreb, do you believe that the Church in Croatia had….?

A: I didn’t know, no. I’m sure that the Church in Croatia didn’t have anything to do with it because otherwise it would have come through. That’s for sure.

Q: But “Stapinas” did give to many people some papers to go away.

A: Well, the only thing what we know and it is certainly correct, that Pater Melcher did really put his head at risk to do that because if he were caught by Ustashi authorities, I’m sure they wouldn’t let him go. That is for sure.

Q: Let us continue.

A: We stopped at Pater Weber’s help and very curious things happened because many, many years after the war we always thought that Pater Weber should be mentioned somewhere as the person who contributed to saving so many Jews. However, in the Herald Tribune one day it appeared an article against him because somebody in some place found out that Pater Weber also helped, after the war, to escape most of the Ustashi “quislings”, and from other parts of Europe, of the fascists to escape to Argentina, which proved only that that principle of helping anybody, everybody was true. Of course, we didn’t like the fact that he helped also war criminals escape.

All that immigration was a series of problems because the problem how to get to Spain was solved…

Q: So after Rome you went back…?

A: Well, I’ll tell you. We spent summer months until July in Rome, which helped our development of knowing Rome, knowing culturally and historically all the places. We had to fly from Ostia, which was the harbour of Rome, by hydroplanes to Barcelona.

Q: One thing I didn’t understand. Only you and the uncle of your wife went to Rome, or all the group? Went only from papers or already you were on the way?

A: No, no. We were, only Hugo, my future father-in-law and I went to Rome. And then later the whole family and also my cousin’s family, who were always with me also, they came to Rome and we left all together for Barcelona by hydroplane. Arriving to Barcelona had quite an impact in many ways because all of a sudden…in Italy everything was dark and it was rationed - you didn’t have enough bread and so on – and all of a sudden we found ourselves in a city which at night had lights, which had wonderful food. For eating purposes, of course, we had almost everything, not everything. But the impact – we stayed only two days because we continued by train to Madrid, where we found, as I told you before, the other part of the Bauer family, of Mia’s family, who previously already got to Spain. But what impacted me, of course, was that we, at least I saw, food that after four hundred and fifty years we were calling the same, had the same name as at my parent’s home and tasted the same as in my parent’s home, so that proved that really for four and a half centuries the Sephardic Jews did continue the same, even culinary, tradition.

Madrid now started with new problems. The problem was to get a real visa because already on a Cuban visa we could get to Rome, with the Uruguayan visa we would get to Madrid, but now really we had to get a real overseas visa. The danger was that if we stayed too long, number 1, we didn’t speak about financial situation, which was really rather precarious most of the time. There were cases where the people, the refugees stayed too long, they were interned into Mira, that camp which was Spanish concentration camp for refugees. I never met anybody who was there, but I know that there were some there.

We were helped by the Yugoslav representative – I don’t know whether he had the rank of attaché or minister – Vishatsky, who was trying to help us to get the visa, but the problem was that those visas that could easily be gotten required some papers, of course, papers testifying that we were Catholics and that we were not Jewish. So this really took us a few months and many frustrations until we got, and I’ll tell how we got the final visa. (end of side)

In Madrid we, of course, did the rounds of all the consulates and, as I said, we didn’t want to provide or to try to get documentation that would facilitate a visa, neither for Argentina, for Paraguay, for Uruguay which were mostly desired by most of the refugees. However, as the Uncle Fredo in New York knew and was trying to secure something for us, he found out that Ecuador would, for a deposit of two hundred dollars, security deposit per person, would extend an entry visa for Ecuador, which was on the Pacific coast. So we did finally get those Ecuador visas on the basis of which we very easily obtained the transit visa for Venezuela and of Colombia in order to get to Ecuador, because the only way to get overseas were the Spanish ships belonging to the ship company “Ibarra”. And there were two ships that alternatively would get across the Atlantic and then down to Buenos Aires, which were “Caba de Ornos” and “Caba de Bonesperanza”, each leaving almost every month. The problem was also how to get to pay for the tickets for the ship. Fortunately, my future mother-in-law had a fur coat and although it is a long and interesting story how she managed to sell it and to get for all of us the funds to pay for the overseas trip. There is an interesting detail as far as the financial situation was – that my future mother-in-law had some jewels in a safe in Switzerland and the access to that safe had a friend of theirs, with whom we were in contact and who managed to find a courier to send from Geneva those jewels down to Cadiz because before boarding the ship we were about to get in Cadiz. It is a suspense story because almost to the last hour the courier didn’t arrive and we thought he either couldn’t manage or he was caught or he took the jewels, but those jewels did arrive at the last moment, which was very, very lucky, and it brought up our spirits. And now from Madrid, Cadiz, the trip over the ocean took about seventeen days. It was a long trip. It was “Caba de Ornos”. Nobody could get on the ship without what was called from the British a “navy cert”. “Navy cert” was a certification that you do not belong to any kind of German organization, that you are not a spy and that you are clean as far as security, Allied security, was concerned. But once we reached Trinidad there was a second investigation of everybody on board and some people were taken from the ship because it became clear that the “navy cert” was not correct because they did have some previous connection with the Germans.

We arrived – and this is again at 22 – we arrived to Puerto Cabello, which is the port, the harbour of Venezuela, which was our first contact with American soil, on December 22nd, ’42. We were received by a committee in Caracas. We didn’t know much about Venezuela, about Colombia, about Ecuador. We didn’t know anything about Caracas. The reception was organized by a committee of the community in Caracas, and we were taken from Puerto Cabello by buses to Caracas. We arrived, it was about six o’clock in the morning, one very early morning, and we didn’t realize we were meeting a city where we should spend probably the rest of our lives. We thought it would be just a step on the transit towards Ecuador.

I have to cut it short because really we will get into too many details.

Q: Venezuela was already for you a freedom.

A: It was, of course, freedom. We left Europe behind. I still didn’t know anything about my parents. We still, at that time – it was December, ’42 – we didn’t know anything about the genocide of the Holocaust. As far as I read later, it was only November, ’42, that it was known through some Italian generals who did declare their suspicions in Italy. But anyhow, we felt free. We didn’t know what the future would become because when we arrived we were left without any financial means, and we stayed there waiting the help, waiting the remittance of funds from again Mia’s uncle from New York.

Q: (?)

A: In ’42 we were in Puerto Cabello – because that’s also a nice detail. My Hugo, my future father-in-law, went to the agency of the “Ibarro” Shipping, which is Bolton and Co., and he asked whether the sum of money arrived from New York. He said, “No, nothing arrived, but if you need some money, we can let you have.” He said, “But you don’t know me.” He said, “You have a very honest face.” And really that person, whom then later we met, who wasn’t a declared Jew, but was from Jewish-descended origin, let him have, I don’t remember exactly the amount, but to have some funds to start with.

Well, the later we stayed the Venezuelans treated us very well. They prolonged our permit to stay for six months and later for more. In February, ’43, Mia and I got married, and then a new epoch, a new phase in our lives started. I believe this should be the end of our story. We had difficulties, of course, to try to find a way to make our living. Mia took some courses in English stenography. Fortunately, we both spoke already English. We did learn, because we followed some course of Spanish while we were in Madrid. For me it was rather easy because of my Ladino background. By coincidence – as I always say about coincidence, that everything in life is a coincidence – the (?) family, my cousin’s family also arrived. He was a very big expert in precision mechanics. He found a way to work in a workshop and as I was an amateur - even during my student days in Belgrade I used to go during my studies at the university several times a week to work as an apprentice in precision mechanics. Obviously my law studies in Yugoslav law wouldn’t be any help in Venezuela, so he took me as an apprentice and I worked with him, repairing cameras, instruments, microscopes, topographic instruments and so on. That was not for a long period because he obtained a visa, being an expert, for the United States in ’43. He left and I continued his job, his partnership with a Frenchman. And out of that, all my activity, professional and commercial activity developed during those years.

Mia was, of course, the big earner in the family because she got a secretarial job and was making about two or three times more than I did. Her parents, with another couple from Zagreb, Yellinich – they opened a pastry shop which was famous, of course, because the quality was excellent, made with home recipes. They had as direct clients even the president of the Republic of Venezuela – he used to come to buy some specialties. But the work was very hard and they were not making much money mostly. It took about two or three years until really…then they sold the place.

The part in Venezuela then becomes too long and maybe too simple.

Q: You had also a very interesting career.

A: What do you mean, career? Well, later we had opportunities and we worked hard. I liked what I did with my hands, which is always very, very satisfactory because at the end of the day you know what you did. It is much easier, as I always say, to deal with screws and nuts than with people. Problems with people are much more difficult to solve than mechanical problems. But out of that then commercial activity developed with the time. We got some agencies. We had, at a certain moment of time, especially in the beginning, a problem, a conflict, an emotional conflict whether we should take some German representations or not, because one of our first agencies was the Belgian film company, Gevaert, who did have contacts with Voigtlander, which was at that time a camera manufacturer of Germany and who offered us the agency. It took us a long conversation and discussion whether we should take it or not. We did and the relationship was very cordial and really good. Of course, nobody of them was a Nazi. They didn’t even know what a Nazi was, I suppose.

Q: How did you develop in your business?

A: Well, by giving good service because we started giving service, repairing cameras, repairing instruments, so it wasn’t difficult to obtain agencies, representations of manufacturers because there are manufacturers in all parts of the world. The main thing is the quality of the service because the quality of a product does not depend so much on the quality of the product as much as the service, the after-service. But I don’t believe this is of interest. Through the years there was accumulation – one agency brought the other, but the whole market of Venezuela was much too small so that with time we had to get rid of many of those.

There was something else I wanted to say, but as usual I forgot.

Q: And now…?

A: The final question, of course. We developed a very nice family. We have two sons who, by precision mechanics, were born the same date three years apart. Many say because we are stingy and we didn’t want to have but just one pinata, one birthday party! One was born in ’48, practically with the birth of Israel, and the other in ’51. I don’t know what more you’d like to know.

Q: You have grandchildren?

A: Grandchildren from Miguel, from the first one, we have two. Our first grandchild unfortunately was born with brain damage, which gave us the reason to found a chair at Tel Aviv University in his memory for detection and prevention of malformations of the birth, but then everything else worked better. We have two on Miguel’s side and three on Daniel’s side, so we have five grandchildren, including a pair of twins.

Q: And I understand that you are quite active with connection with Israel.

A: Since many years ago I am also, not responsible, but a member of ORT. This is why at this time I am in Jerusalem, because in two days we’ll have a congress celebrating the 120th anniversary of ORT, which is the largest private educational organization in the world, being not only Jewish, but all over the world. And I’m very proud of it. We have quite interesting activity in Venezuela, not only for the Jewish community and Jewish youngsters, but also for educating the Venezuelan population which is very successful.

Q: What is your position in this organization?

A: I was practically the founder of ORT of Venezuela. Now I’m just a director. I used to be the president. I’m now a director and I, until recently, was the member of the executive board of International. So we are with Tel Aviv University very well connected and of course in the Jewish community in Venezuela a little bit less.

I believe this would be about…

Q: Well, we thank you really very much for your interesting interview and we wish you much joy with your children and grandchildren.

A: I would like to state here that really it was improvised, very spontaneous, much too spontaneous because then even the errors and the story that I gave in English was, of course, using the English language. I never told my story in English, so I did have a lack of many expressions and many descriptions were not exactly as I would like to, but anyhow, it is a pleasure to have had the opportunity of telling you in some words my story.

Q: We also didn’t have, from our side, much time to make proper preparation, but even so I think it was a very interesting interview.

A: Well, to me it was a pleasure to tell it.

Q: Thank you very much.

A: Thank you, thank you.