קתרינה לאה van der Berg

Name of Interviewee: Catharina (Dini) Van Den Berg

Name of Interviewer: Ronit Wilder

Cassette Number: VT-2086

Date: December 2, 1998

Name of Typist: Cheryl Balshayi

Names:

Rotterdam

Westerbork

Theresienstadt

Q: December 2, 1998. This is an interview with Mrs. Catharina Van Den Berg. You were born as born Catharina (Dini) Drucker in 1917 in Rotterdam, Holland. Can you tell me a little bit about your background, your family?

A: I’m the oldest of four children. I have two sisters and a brother. My mother was Dutch. My father came from that part, but after the First World War it became Rumania, but before the First World War it was Austria.

Q: Bukowina?

A: Bukowina. He came from a tiny little village....sometimes I forget things. Kimpulung. And then he was fourteen or fifteen years old, he went to his brother who was working in Budapest as a tailor, and from there the two of them went to Paris and he worked for five years “passe-partout”, with a very famous dressmaker, high fashion dressmaker. And then the First World War in 1914. They didn’t want to go back because then they would have been put into the army and they wanted to go to Spain. And all their belongings were on the train and then they didn’t allow them to be in the train anymore because they said it was full and there they were standing with nothing. There was one train going to Antwerp and from there they walked into Holland. He had to go to work with a tailor who was making clothes for the army and after a year he was allowed to get out. And he came to Rotterdam and he made a kind of little fabric where he made coats and suits for ladies for the big fashion houses in Rotterdam.

Q: So he was a tailor?

A: Yes, he went into...for ladies, not for men. When he saw how expensive they sold his coats and suits, he thought, “I can do that also.” By that time he had married my mother and they started first one shop and then they had several shops. In that business I was growing up as well.

Q: What did language did you speak at home?

A: Dutch. I didn’t even know any word in Yiddish because in Holland the Jews speak Dutch.

Q: Your father also spoke Dutch?

A: No, my father, when he came into Holland he went to school to learn Dutch. He could write in Hebrew and Pesach he would do the “Seder” in Hebrew even without a book, but we were not a religious family. We had not a kosher house, but there was no “traife” in the house. You know what I mean? And on Yom Kippur we went to the synagogue and the holidays. I went six years to Jewish school.

Q: By the way, you went to the Ashkenazi synagogue or the Sephardi synagogue?

A: Ashkenazi. There is a funny thing because he came to Holland without papers and then he wanted to marry in the synagogue. The rabbi didn’t want to marry him because he didn’t have any papers to prove that he was a Jew. And then he asked where he came from and who his family was and then they found out that my father’s grandfather had been the rabbi where the rabbi in Rotterdam had studied. So then he married him.

I had a wonderful youth. We were a very close family.

Q: I asked about Sephardic and Ashkenazic synagogue because I know that in Holland there was a difference between the two communities.

A: The Sephardim and the Ashkenazim. But that was more in Amsterdam because in Amsterdam ten percent were Jews in Amsterdam and even now in Amsterdam, the gentiles use Hebrew words. They will say “yayim” for the water. You know? They will say, “Don’t fall in the ‘yayim’.” And “Get me a yat.” Things like this. But Holland was very - how shall I say it? I went to Jewish classes. I went to normal school, but I went to...

Q: Public school, you mean?

A: Yes. But there was no difference. I won’t say there was a difference between me and the other girls in the class. I think I was the only Jewess in the class, but there was no antisemitism as far as I can see it from now.

Q: Because you know, we have the thought that the Dutch people were so good to the Jews and so considerate, and once in awhile you hear about Dutch people who were Nazis of course. There were in Holland Dutch Nazis and also antisemitism in Holland.

A: Yes, that was, but as a child - you’re talking about my childhood now - I haven’t found out. I never found any....never known. But afterwards yes.

Q: When you were a child, was there any connection to zionism in your family?

A: No, not at all. The brother of my father went to the States and some of my father’s brothers came from Rumania to stay with us, but I don’t know, I don’t think...no. You know that the Dutch Jews felt first Dutch. We had another religion than the other people, but we were Dutch.

Q: Did you and your parents have gentile friends?

A: Yes, but we had a lot of Jewish friends, but we had gentile friends as well. And my girlfriends were all gentile girlfriends because as I say, I think I was the only one in the class.

Q: You said you weren’t a religious family. Did you celebrate the Jewish holidays?

A: Yes. The special Pesach and Yom Kippur, but not really....We couldn’t keep the shabbat because having shops you can’t keep them closed on Saturday, you know.

Q: But you didn’t celebrate Christmas like other people did?

A: No. We did Saint Nicholas in Holland. You know? That is on the fifth of December when the children get.....they say it’s the bishop coming from Spain and he brings presents. And because, you know, Holland is divided in two parts. Between the two big rivers there are Catholics and both the two rivers, they are Protestant, so Christmas wasn’t so much celebrated where I lived.

Q: You were aware of the fact that you were Jewish, but that’s all. It didn’t mean anything more than that?

A: No, it was a religion for me and as I am one of the people who want to see it, I don’t believe before I see it. I can tell you a nice story if you want because when I had Jewish classes I had a young teacher and I always asked “why?” and “how?” and he said, “Don’t ask ‘why?’ and ‘how?’ Believe it.” When my son was in the army, they found out he was born in Westerbork, so his commander asked him to come and the army rabbi was there and he asked where his family came from. He said, “I only know that they came from a certain place, but I don’t know much about it.” And he said, “And your mother?” He said, “Her name was Drucker.” And then he said, “Dini Drucker?” And he said, “Yes.” He said, “Then I know enough.” Because I drove him crazy by asking all the questions all the time. And I am still mad that at that time they only learned us to make “broches”, you know? If they would have learned me to speak “Ivrit”, I could speak with you in “Ivrit” now instead of in English.

Q: Okay. Next time. I understand that your economic situation was okay when you were a child?

A: Yes. It was okay till the big crisis started, you know, in the 30’s.

Q: ‘29.

A: No, in Holland everything comes later. But as a child, afterwards, when I was grown up I found that my father had had difficult times, but as a child we didn’t....I wanted to go to ballet lessons. I was champion from Rotterdam in swimming. We were a very athletic, sportive family. There was, in the swimming club my brother was in, there was every year the competition from families, and we always won!

Q: Did you have relatives in Rotterdam or somewhere around? Because you said your mother was Dutch.

A: Yes. A brother of my mother and my grandfather. My grandmother died a week before I was born. I was really born in the house of my grandfather because my mother went there to look after her father and she had a very young sister, six years, who is living at the moment here in Israel. She is eighty-seven now. That was the family we had.

Q: I understand that your father’s family was all around?

A: And my mother had some cousins and so, but we were a very close family, you know, the few. They always came to us because my mother didn’t want to go out with four little children - she had four children before she was twenty-eight - so they always came to us.

Q: Before the invasion to Holland, did you feel any change? Because Germany is not so far away from Holland and you heard what is going on in Germany, what is going on in Austria, in Czechoslovakia. Did you feel anything?

A: Yes. First of all, I was in a Jewish youth club and we.....we made shows to get money to send to the refugees because Westerbork was really made in Holland for the German Jews who came out. So we knew, but somehow the Dutch Jews thought that won’t happen to us. Because, don’t forget, we didn’t have war in ‘14-17, you know?

Q: By the way, was your father a Dutch citizen?

A: Yes. After five years he became because when I was born he was still without...he was a displaced person really. Then he became naturalized and he became a Dutch citizen.

Q: Do you remember talking about the situation and what happened to the German Jews, the Austrian Jews, the Czech Jews?

A: Yes, we did, but somehow I think, and I think that with all the Dutch Jews, that we somehow thought it wouldn’t happen in Holland. You know? It came later.

Q: Did you meet refugees before the war?

A: Yes, some, but most of them went through Holland. Only a few stayed in Holland. Most of them went to America, to the States or to Argentina.

Q: What do you remember about the German invasion into Holland?

A: You must know that they bombed Rotterdam. I was just married - I married in October, ‘39, so I had a house outside the part where they bombed, but my father lost everything for the second time in his life. And my brother was working for the Dutch Ministry of Economics and he stole a bicycle in the Hague to come because he saw that Rotterdam was burning and he came to my place and my father and my sisters and my mother were with me and then my father said, “All my four children are there and I will start again.” And my father died only in April, 1945. He had been working, making uniforms for the high officers. I don’t know in which camp he was, but I met after the war somebody who saw me and said, “Are you a Drucker?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “I was with your father in camp and when the Russians came, they let them walk and he died because he was...” But only in April of 1945.

Q: You were working at the time that the Germans came in? You had a job at that time?

A: No, I was married. I worked in one of the shops my father had and my husband was a manager of one of the big stores. I was with my mother and father and we had to get out because everything was bombed, the whole centre of Rotterdam was bombed. Only now, just recently, the last part they have put new buildings in.

Q: When you saw that it happened to you also, how did you react? Did you think that it is temporary and will shortly end?

A: No, look. By the time they really started the “razzias” I was already pregnant.

Q: No, but before. I mean, when they only came, the Germans. 1940.

A: The first year there was nothing going on. They made some restrictions, you know, but not much. Then I started working in the hospital as a volunteer because the non-Jewish nurses were not allowed to work in the Jewish hospital anymore. That more or less saved my life because when I came to Westerbork for the first time I was wearing my uniform.

Q: But there was the time of the bombing that I am sure was terrible for all Rotterdam citizens, and then you say there were some restrictions, but it wasn’t something important to you.

A: Look, they did it very clever, let me say so. Every time it was a little bit more. You had to wear the star, then you were not allowed to go with this train and so on. All those little....

Q: And you couldn’t go to the cinema, you couldn’t go to the theatre.

A: No, you couldn’t go. All those things.

Q: I’m not talking about the point of view that you know what happened after it. I’m trying to understand how did you feel when it happened. For you wasn’t that an insult, to go with a yellow star?

A: Yes, sure. That was an insult. But then....I don’t know. We didn’t realize it. We didn’t know really because we didn’t know what happened...We knew that they had taken to the Jews to working camps. That’s what they said. We didn’t know they were killing them. My husband said, “Let’s go to Spain.” But by that time I was pregnant and I thought we couldn’t make it. And then my parents-in-law were taken away and we were there as well, but I had papers, my father had papers from the Rumanian Consul that he was not a Jew.

Q: But before that your father had a business, your husband worked in a business. Did they continue their jobs?

A: No. My father started again. He started again in a little place outside Rotterdam. They got a house there and he started again. The first year there was no trouble whatsoever.

Q: And you worked the whole year as a volunteer in the Jewish hospital?

A: Yes. And I even had to work then because after awhile I wasn’t allowed to go with the train of the tram and I had to walk five kilometers to go there.

Q: Didn’t you have a bicycle?

A: No. Don’t you know they took all the bicycles?

Q: Yes, but at the beginning?

A: Yes, they took it. That was one of the first things they did, taking all the bicycles.

Q: You know, they took your bicycle, I suppose they took your radio if you had one.

A: They did that to everyone, not only to the Jews. That was what made us sleep really, you know, because they didn’t do it only to us, but they did it...And then slowly and slowly they started to make “razzias”. I think the started in September, ‘42.

Q: No, before that. The summer of ‘42. Did you hear at that time about the zionist youth movements or the Dutch underground?

A: No. Yes, sure. That we knew, but not of the zionist. And don’t forget, we didn’t have a government anymore because our government fled to London and they didn’t do very much for us. They didn’t do anything for the people who were sent to the camps.

Q: You said that your husband was talking about escape to Spain. Did you speak with other people about escape? Did people think to go to Belgium? Belgium wasn’t a good opportunity, but maybe to reach London or to go somewhere, maybe to Indonesia?

A: No, you couldn’t go there because there were no ships going out. Don’t forget, we were surrounded on one side by Germany and on the other side Belgium was also occupied by the Germans, so you had to go through an occupied country to get out and you couldn’t go. There were no ships. The few people who went into England - they were young men who went with little ships, but if you’re pregnant, you don’t do that.

Q: But you said that your father had papers that said that he is a non-Jew, Rumanian citizen I suppose. Didn’t you have papers, didn’t you try to have papers that you are a Dutch non-Jew or something like that, that would allow you to go somewhere else?

A: No, but you couldn’t go anywhere.

Q: Wasn’t possible?

A: No, it wasn’t possible. I mean, there are people who went away and I know of people, young men, who walked out of Holland. You had to walk. Don’t forget that you couldn’t use any traffic and you had to walk. I know of two boys who went to Switzerland and on the border of Switzerland they sent them back. No, the only ones who came through were the ones who went to Spain because although Franco was a dictator, he never sent Jews back. And although Hitler wanted him to stop the borders, he didn’t do it. Close the borders. And from Spain you could go into Lisbon and from Lisbon you could fly into London.

Q: Did you feel at that time anti-semitism in Rotterdam?

A: No, at that time most of the people, I mean the people I knew, were afraid for us, you know. And a lot of people helped, but also....I myself didn’t know any Nazi. What we call “NSB”. I didn’t know any, no.

Q: Did you have contact with Germans at that time?

A: No. How could we?

Q: Only in the street when you walked?

A: Yes, there were. Of course there were.

Q: When you saw a German, you went to the other side of the street?

A: No, I don’t remember that. I wouldn’t have gone to them and talked to them, but....

Q: You weren’t afraid personally?

A: No. I wasn’t. I had never been afraid. You know, I will tell you afterwards when you ask me the questions about the camp.

Q: Can you tell me a little bit, details about your life in Rotterdam till ‘42?

A: As I say, I was a member of a club. We had, twice a year we made a big show. From six until I was twenty I was in ballet. I had friends in the first class, when I was six - one of the girls’ sister had a big dance school and so we went together and I learned all the kinds of dances what you can... ballet, tap dance, Spanish. We had a very nice life.

Q: And from ‘40 till ‘42? How did your daily life look like?

A: We knew there was a war. We were not allowed to get out after dark. I mean, I told you before, it went very, very softly. Every time it was a little bit more what we were not allowed to do. And then all of a sudden the “razzias” started.

Q: But before the “razzias” how did you manage economically?

A: Alright.

Q: You didn’t have problems, you didn’t have lack of products?

A: No, at that time there was still enough to eat. The problem with the food started in ‘44. You know, that was the year that I don’t know how many people in Holland died from hunger.

Q: But in ‘41, ‘42 did your husband still work?

A: Yes. No. In the beginning, the first year, yes, but afterwards, no.

Q: So how did you manage?

A: My father had some money and his father had money. You know, I don’t know. Money never was for me, and still isn’t, a problem.

Q: It’s not a problem when you have it. It’s a problem only when you don’t have it.

A: Yes, but it is not for me. It is not something what I think of.

Q: Because at that time in Holland people without a job had a problem, because if you had property, the Germans took it, and if you didn’t have a job you had a problem.

A: I know, but we were fortunate, not one of those people.

Q: And your father was still working?

A: My father had still a job till they took him away. And he had this paper because he went to the Rumanian Consul and he paid a lot of money for it and they said, “Okay, Drucker is not a Jewish name. You are not a Jew,” and he gave him.

Q: The Rumanians could do anything for money.

A: They are still the same. It helped in the beginning and it helped also because then my mother was married not to a Jew, you know, so that marriage was... they didn’t do anything in the beginning, but after that, some other people told that my father was a Jew and then they took him away as well.

Q: Some Jews or people who knew him?

A: No, some Dutch people, but I don’t know, I was away at that time. I was already in camp by that time because I was taken away when I was with the parents of my husband, you know? We were visiting there and then there was a “razzia” and they took all of us away.

Q: Where were you?

A: In Rotterdam. And then after six weeks, I was taken to Westerbork, and after six weeks my father got me out with my husband. He paid the jewellery of my mother. He gave and that was a lot of money at that time. It was over a hundred thousand guilders at that time. He paid it to - and I don’t know the name. It was a list where they put Jews on. It was not a Schindler’s list, but it was another list. So we came out.

Q: He paid to the Jews who were responsible?

A: No, I don’t know. No, it was a German who was taking out Jews, but I don’t know. I mean, I would lie if I said I know exactly. The only thing that I know is that it was a lot of money and they took us out, they sent us back and then after.....

Q: Let’s stop here. Can you tell me what happened to you from the moment you were caught?

A: Yes, we were taken to Westerbork.

Q: The same day? Immediately after you were caught?

A: No. We were brought into a theatre in Amsterdam and from there we were sent to....I have black spots. There are some things, because Yehudith asked me yesterday, “When were you sent to Theresienstadt?” I didn’t know. Yesterday I didn’t know. Now I know. It was in February. But I have black spots. This is the first time I talk about it.

Q: Why?

A: Why? Because I didn’t want to think of it anymore. I just took it out. I put it away somewhere and I didn’t want to think of it anymore. That’s why I didn’t want to come to Israel for a long time. And my husband wanted to go, so last year I said okay. And then we went to Spain, we went to Spain, we went to Israel, and then I thought I bring those pictures with me because I think they belong here. And I was afraid to come, you know? Because it would bring back all the memories. She asked me if I wanted to do it and I agreed with it, I do it voluntarily, but I didn’t sleep last night.And the funny thing is, if I hear about other people being in the camp, I didn’t have it so bad. You know, first we went out and then after a couple of weeks we were taken in again because they had been told that my father was a Jew and they found us in Amsterdam - we were staying in Amsterdam then - and they brought us back and then by that time I was already six months pregnant.

Q: But I want to hear some details from the day you were caught. Till then you lived, I can’t say a normal life, but relatively a normal life and all of a sudden, one day, you find yourself in a theatre building in Amsterdam with hundreds of Jews. All of them are frightened and I don’t know if hysterical or something. What is with you at that time?

A: No, because I’ll tell you something my husband said to me. “We are both young.” He said, “They will send us to a work camp and we will survive.” And he said, “And if they send us up to Poland” - he spoke Russian - he said, “Somehow we will get out.” We were very optimistic.

Q: But you were twenty-five, twenty-six?

A: I was twenty-four, yes.

Q: You were twenty-four years old, you were pregnant, you knew it. It’s not so easy to survive even in a work camp.

A: I know, but somehow, I don’t know, I mean, I’m a survivor. My father was a survivor and I have his...I mean, I come from a long line of people who always have been, how do you call it? There were always “razzias” in Poland, in Rumania. My son was born with a sign on his back and when the doctor saw him, he said, “You have Mongol blood.” So one of my grandmothers must have been raped! That’s goes away, you know, after a couple of weeks. But all Mongols have it, so he must have it, so I must have it. I’m eighty-one years old now, or almost. This month I am eighty-one. Since ten years I have leukaemia. Every year I have chemo and that is not very pleasant, and still I think life is nice and as long as I can do it, I keep on doing it. I think that I have, I would have been like the Sabras, you know? You know you live in a dangerous, or it’s not so....so at the moment it’s a little better, but you’re used to it. So okay, we got used to it.

Q: Yes, but that’s exactly what I’m asking. At first. You weren’t used to it before. You had almost normal life and suddenly you find yourself in the theatre and after a few days in Westerbork. What’s going on with you at the time?

A: I was working in the hospital in Westerbork.

Q: Since the first day?

A: I worked in the hospital.

Q: You said you were in uniform when you were taken. They thought you were a nurse or they didn’t care?

A: They knew, but I was almost a nurse. I had worked for a long time in a hospital and it was not like in normal time that it takes you so many years to do certain things. I worked in a barrack where older people were and everybody took care of me because I was pregnant. You know, before they took us the second time I was six weeks in prison. And even the jailers, the woman there - there was a woman - they took me out of the cell to play bridge with them because they were sorry for me.

Q: You were six weeks in Westerbork. You worked there in the hospital, let’s say as a nurse, and then after six weeks....

A: My father got me out.

Q: You went out.

A: Then we went to Amsterdam for a couple of weeks. We were taken away and then we were both sent to prison for six weeks. Then we went to Westerbork and then my husband was in what they called “Strafkamp” because....

Q: Because he lied.

A: Yes, because we lied. Normally if you came in the “Strafkamp” they sent you right away to Sobibor. And because I was pregnant, but they didn’t believe at that time, they didn’t send him away and they let me stay there. And when my son was born, three weeks afterwards they sent him to Sobibor. So on the 21st of May, 1943 they sent my husband to Sobibor and they let me stay in Westerbork because they didn’t send children that small.

Q: But when you came to the prison...Before that, you were in Amsterdam and you said, “I”m okay now. I have the papers that will rescue me if I need it,” and suddenly someone came to arrest you?

A: Yes.

Q: Germans or Dutch people?

A: Germans.

Q: Out of the blue?

A: Yes. We had been to the Rumanian Consul to see what he could do for us, but he couldn’t do very much at the time anymore. Then we stayed with people my husband knew, non-Jews. Somebody must have told the Germans that we were there and then we were taken away again.

Q: And you were still optimistic at that time?

A: I don’t know. Optimistic?

Q: You don’t sound that you were so worried about it and you were six months pregnant.

A: By that time the Americans were also in the war. By that time Pearl Harbour - and we knew that, so I thought the war would be over in a couple of months now. If you give in, you’ve had it.

Q: Can you tell me something about your daily life in the prison when you were there?

A: I was in solitary. I was alone in a cell, but they took me out now and then and even there were other.....there is a religion, Protestant religion in Holland - I mean, it’s all over the world - it’s like the Mormons in the States, but it is a little bit different in Holland. They could have gone out. They didn’t recognize the German government, you know. But if they would have signed just a paper they could have gone out. They didn’t do it. There were a lot of them. Almost all of them were killed. It was winter and I had a lot of trouble with food, so they saved bread for me to eat, that I didn’t have to eat the heavy foods because it didn’t agree with my stomach. There always were some things....I don’t know how to say it. And after my son was born, then they started, in Westerbork they started a show and somebody knew me from before and knew that I always had played leads in the shows we did for the club. You have a picture there. There were only six girls or young women asked. All the rest were professionals. There were very famous German professionals in the camp because when we came in....The camp was made for Germans and they still lived there when we, the transit, what they called the “transit camps” came.

Q: You came at the end of ‘42?

A: No. I came in....the end of ‘42. And then the 1st of May Clarence was born and just to spite the Germans I gave him three English names. His name is Clarence, after my mother-in-law - her name was Clare. My father-in-law’s name was Eli and I called him Edward, and my father’s name was Moses and I called him Maxim. So his name is Clarence Edward Maxim. Then we started a show and every night there was a show. And then all of a sudden in the barrack where I was living with my son, there was encephalitis going and....not encephalitis.

Q: Polio?

A: Polio. They took me out and they left Clarence in because I had to go and play in the show. And you can imagine what that was. But what can you do? When they asked me - because everyone had a spare, you know. You were spare for this or you were spare for that. And when they asked me, “Where are you spare?” And I would say, “On my legs.” Because you see on that picture I was wearing a very short skirt. In the first row there were always high SS officers sitting, but the people of the camp could also come. Every barrack could come. And then there was....one night Eichmann came to the camp, with other high officers, to get people out, because every time they had to move them because the camps were getting too full. And I showed him all the papers I had and he said he couldn’t let me free, but he would send me to Theresienstadt and I could stay there until the end of the war. He had seen me the night before in the show, but he didn’t tell me that. And then I was in Theresienstadt. Just by chance I met Borashova, the painter, and she had to paint a picture and she asked if I would stay for her, if I would pose for her. And then so many months later Eichmann came to Theresienstadt and when he saw that picture he said, “I know that woman.” And then one of the Jews said, “That is a Dutch woman.” They told me that he recognized me. So when we had to come again, I went special to him. All other people went to the other side, because there were three of them. I gave him the papers and he said, “I have seen you before.” (German). I said that he had a colossal, that he remembered me, memory. I said, “You sent me here and you said I could stay here until the end of the war.” So then he asked me if everything was alright. I said, “No, it’s not alright. I’m living in a barrack with a son not even a year old and he has already had three times pneumonia.” So he said to somebody behind him, he said, “See that she gets room in one of the houses.” And that is how I survived. And I became “Hausaelteste”. That means that I have to look after the house. And in that house there were all young Danish boys. They were not Danish. They came from Germany. They were working in Denmark to learn because they wanted to come to Israel and when Graf Bernadotte came they took them out and about three or four of them gave me the papers that I could get a package that the Swedish Red Cross sent every month, and that is how I survived.

And then they started bombing Dresden. I heard every night planes coming over and at last I heard we were liberated by the Russians.

Q: Before the liberation, in ten minutes you passed Westerbork, jail, Theresienstadt till the liberation. I want to do it much more in details if it’s possible. Can you tell me what do you remember coming back to Westerbork after the jail?

A: My dear, that is fifty-five years ago and I told you, I put it away. There are so many things I don’t know anymore. I don’t know how I felt, I can’t tell you. I would tell a story now and I don’t want to tell a fairy tale, you know?

Q: Did you have friends there?

A: I had a brother-in-law, my husband’s brother. He’s dead now and I can tell the story. He came to me one night and he said, “Dini, do you mind if I put you on my card?” because he wanted to go to Amsterdam as O.D. You know what that was? “Order Dienst”. I didn’t know what he was going to do there, but he said, “I will have a chance to see my fiancee.” He had a non-Jewish girlfriend. I said, “That’s okay.” And then the thing was that they didn’t let men out who were not having a family there because the punishment was when they would go underground the family would be sent to Auschwitz or to somewhere. So he went underground. And if I wouldn’t have had people who were looking after me and taking the card out, my card out, I would have been sent with the baby, so that is what people did to me. That is what family did to me. There were so few very little children in Theresienstadt that my son, when he was walking with me or on my arm, and he saw from the other side a woman coming over, he would say, “No, no!” because he didn’t want to be kissed by everyone. Now he likes to be kissed by girls!

Q: I’m sure you remember the birth because I suppose there weren’t the normal conditions for that in Westerbork.

A: Oh yes. We had a hospital. And I tell you, I had a birth, not even the queen had so many doctors around her, because everybody said, “Frank is getting a baby.” Everybody knew me and so I had four or five doctors around me. How do you call a “Heba…” (midwife)? A woman was doing the....

Q: Matron? Something like that.

A: Yes. So they were telling stories to each other and I was there in labour, you know. And I had been working in the hospital before, so I had seen a lot of births already. I knew what was coming and the baby was born and I didn’t like him. I said, “Oh, he’s ugly,” and everybody was...! I have pictures of him out of Westerbork, but he got them. I haven’t brought them with me. (end of side)

Q: You were more than a year in Westerbork. You said that giving birth was not very difficult because there was a hospital. What happened after that? How did you manage?

A: I told you I had an aunt who was just six years older than I and she just had a baby, or a little bit before Clarence was born, and she sent me a pram, one you can carry. And that is also when we were transported to Theresienstadt, because of the pram he kept alive.

Q: But even things like...

A: The first six months I had enough milk to feed him and not only to feed him, but there was a woman who gave birth to twins and she had polio, so they took the children away from her the moment they came out and I had enough milk to feed those two boys as well.

Q: I’m sure that you didn’t have diapers there, for example.

A: No, but there was a laundry. I had diapers because with the pram they sent me everything and that aunt, she was married to somebody who, before the war, his parents had a shop who specialized in baby clothes, so he had the most beautiful clothes in the camp.

Q: And the Germans didn’t take anything?

A: When you were in Westerbork you didn’t see very much Germans.

Q: Yes, but I am sure that they had, supervising the post office.

A: No. If you ask me now, I don’t know how it came there, but I know I got parcels with food, with fruits, it came through. And my father sent me a pillow and then I felt and I thought it’s not a normal pillow, so I opened it and there was a fur coat in it. A long fur coat. I put it in the pillow again and when I was sent to Theresienstadt I needed it because I had two winters with snow. That they didn’t take away. I had a tiny, small wedding ring from platinum because my husband bought me special, because he said then they will think it is silver and they won’t take it away, and I still have it.

Q: During the pregnancy you felt good? You weren’t ill?

A: Till the last day I was sleeping on the second bed and I never had trouble. I didn’t have time to have trouble.

Q: You weren’t hungry at that time?

A: No. There was enough. I mean, they gave me food because everybody wanted a child to be born and afterwards everybody wanted a child to be alive.

Q: You had a “brit” for the child?

A: No. I didn’t do that because the week before Clarence was born they did a “brit” on a boy and he died of infection, so I thought I don’t do that. On top of that, I thought if I am one of the “chosen people”, from now on, for two thousand years somebody can be the “chosen people”. So at that moment I thought I don’t want it anymore.

Q: Did you also think that you don’t want to be Jewish anymore?

A: Oh no. I changed my religion. I became a Jewess. No, I am Jewish, but I’m not very....Like I said before, I want to see it. You know? I believe it when I see it. So I think it’s the best religion there is because all the others came from it.

Q: But we’re not talking about now. In the camp, when you had those bad conditions, didn’t you think that maybe it’s better that your son won’t be a Jew and maybe he would have a better life, or something like that?

A: Look, if you had been in the camp, you didn’t think of what was coming. Every day was a day. I didn’t think of what was coming tomorrow. And I think that was the way to come through. I’m sure I didn’t think of what was better or what was not better.

Q: Immediately after he was born you went back to work?

A: He was born at eight o’clock at night and at twenty past eight, after they had cleaned me up, I was out of bed. I didn’t have to. I mean, I stayed in the hospital for a week longer. I have a very good body. I mean, how shall I say it? Still now, with the age I have, I can do everything, you know, and with all the trouble I have.

Q: And after a week?

A: I went through the hospital because in that barrack, it was a big barrack. On one side there was the hospital and the other side we were living. And then one of the doctors in charge, he gave me a part where I could stay alone with my baby and the baby was there and I went to work again.

Q: Where was the child when you were working?

A: In the same barrack.

Q: With whom?

A: He was very small, a baby. He couldn’t get out.

Q: Okay, but he cried when he wanted to eat.

A: When he cried I went to him.

Q: Ah, it was close enough that you could hear him?

A: Oh, yes. Let’s say this was the barrack, here was the hospital part. Where I worked was older people. And this part was here. That’s where the doctor worked and so on. And I had a part here, what was taken off, I don’t know, I think with a curtain or something like that. And that is where he stayed during the day.

Q: The child was healthy in Westerbork?

A: Yes. In Westerbork, yes, but he got a cold when we went on the train to Theresienstadt and then he had....we stayed in that big barrack and that was very draughty and so on and he had three times pneumonia before he was a year old.

Q: In Westerbork, all the time you worked in the hospital?

A: Yes, and then afterwards I was not working in the hospital. I was playing in the show.

Q: After he was born.

A: Yes, that was after he was born. I mean, with a big stomach you can’t dance and play!

Q: And your husband was sent, you said, three weeks after the child was born?

A: Yes. But Yehudith just showed me it was four weeks. Or it might be that he was killed four weeks afterwards. I don’t know. I thought it was three weeks, but I won’t argue about it. She has here on the list that he was on the 28th of May, 1943, so he was killed.

Q: And you gave birth on the 1st of May, ‘43. At that time in Westerbork, many, many people came and went to the east. Did you hear anything about the east, what’s going on there?

A: No. We knew that they were sending to a work camp, but only after the war...I personally, maybe other people, but I personally found out that they killed them. I don’t know. You know, it’s a funny thing to say, but I didn’t think of dying, I didn’t think of it. I mean, you lived every day and every day....

Q: You said that you had shows, you danced in Westerbork. Can you talk about socail life there? Did you have social life?

A: How could you have social life? There was nowhere to go.

Q: Yes, but inside the camp?

A: Look, after they had chosen me to play, I knew the girls, I knew the people who were directing the show, but you were not allowed to go out after a certain time, so most of the time you were just living with the people in the barrack where you were.

Q: Who were the viewers in those shows?

A: You have the picture there, and I told you that there is a film and they have it in the Jewish Museum in Amsterdam, and they have a lot of pictures of that. I used to have pictures of the show, but somehow, by moving, they got lost.

Q: What film was it?

A: About the show. A film they made of the show. It was kind of a revue.

Q: But it wasn’t made for the prisoners in the camp.

A: Look, they say it was made for the prisoners, but on the first rows were always, they invited SS people from everywhere, because don’t forget, Zichler and Rosen, the ones who were doing it, were very famous artists in Germany before the war.

Q: What are the names?

A: Zichler and Rosen. They are like....you know the famous couple who make the musicals in the States.

Q: Rogers and Hammerstein or something like that.

A: Yes, like that.

Q: But you were chosen how? Someone said that you sing?

A: No, somebody told one that he knew that I had done this kind of thing a long time. I mean, not for money, but as a pleasure, you know, because I was in that....So they asked if I wanted to do it. And look, you did everything to keep alive.

Q: Can you remember yourself, for example, laughing at Westerbork?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: Because from what you describe it sounds almost like normal life.

A: No. That’s why I told you I was one of the few who - how shall I say? I mean, the only thing that for me was important was to keep the baby alive, and I would have done everything for it, and I did everything. I mean, when he left him in the barrack and took me out, because otherwise the show couldn’t go on, I mean that was the worst thing in my life.

Q: And when there was the polio.

A: Polio, yes. I mean, I know it wasn’t....I had seen my mother and father going away.

Q: You saw them in Westerbork?

A: Yes, I saw them in Westerbork. They saw the baby. But they were only a couple of days there. I don’t think you understand the way people in that way lived. You don’t think about what tomorrow is. You think what happens now. But I told you about my brother-in-law. I mean, people did everything to stay alive. I mean, they got Jews out of their houses in Amsterdam to send them on transports. I mean, it is not only what the SS did. It is also what the people in the camp did to each other. When I was still living in the big, big barrack I had a little piece taken off these curtains. I had just my bed and Clarence was on my bed in his pram. And one night somebody did....it was one of the boys who were working outside the camp and he brought me an apple for the baby, to make some....One of the women saw him coming in and told one of the other people. I had to put him under my bed, otherwise they would have taken him to....You know what I mean? People were not nice. People who are fighting for their lives are not nice. They only think of themselves. And it is not only the SS who were around the camp. It’s also the people in the camp who did things, who were not nice.

Q: And still you didn’t have to fight for food? You weren’t hungry all the time?

A: I’ll tell you. In Theresienstadt I was not hungry because they gave so much food for the baby that I could eat from it as well. And afterwards, when I had that little room and I was looking after....you see, I had to look after, I had to go twice a week to get the sugar and to get the margarine, and all those boys in that house were getting those big packages, so they said, “Keep it.” You know? Like that.

Q: Their margarine and sugar and all the products that they should have.

A: Yes. And going to get the food. I would get my food and I got also for Clarence, but it was so much that I could eat from his food as well. So I was not hungry, but it doesn’t say that other people were not hungry.

Q: And also in Westerbork? Because you were a longer time in Westerbork than you were in Theresienstadt.

A: Look, I had trouble with my gall bladder and I couldn’t eat the coal (?), so sometimes I was a bit hungry because I couldn’t eat certain foods. But in Westerbork they didn’t die from hunger. In Theresienstadt the people didn’t die from hunger. And don’t forget, the people they sent to Theresienstadt, they sent there not to die. They sent them to keep them after the war because then they wanted to exchange them for the prisoners-of-war, so they didn’t want the people to die.

Q: When you appeared in those shows in Westerbork, can you say that you enjoyed it?

A: I told you. Everything you did to get a “spare” - a “spare” means that you weren’t sent....You did it. I don’t know if I enjoyed it. I know I laughed sometimes. And I was in this special one that was there, that was about a teacher and six schoolgirls, and he tells them to behave good because if not, then there was...It was in German. I now have to translate it into English. A bad man would come and get them. And then one of the girls, in this particular part one of the girls said, “You know, I know where the children come from.” And then my part was, “I know how you don’t get them,” and then everybody started laughing because they knew I had a baby, you know? And when everybody started laughing, I could see that the people in front ask the people in the camp, the SS officer, why they were laughing, and then he told them. I mean, sometimes the people were laughing, yes. I mean, it was not Auschwitz, it was not Sobibor. We still hoped a special....that one day, tomorrow, the war will be over. You know? That is the way you live if you are in that kind of danger.

Q: You said you saw your parents in Westerbork. You also saw your brother and sisters?

A: No.

Q: Because you said that one of your sisters went to Auschwitz. I suppose it was through Westerbork.

A: But that was after I was in Theresienstadt. And my brother stayed in Holland, although three times he was arrested by the Gestapo. Three times he escaped. And my younger sister, she was only fourteen when the war started. She stayed all the time in Holland. No, the only thing was the next day you were thinking of.

Q: What you said about Eichmann, that he sent you to Theresienstadt - that means that if you didn’t meet him you would stay in Westerbork till the end of the war?

A: No, they would have sent me also to Auschwitz or to Sobibor. The worst was, I think, if I would have stayed on in Westerbork, I think I would have stayed on in Westerbork, but in Theresienstadt there was only a place for certain amounts of people and especially when they started to bring in all the Hungarian Jews. They had to move them, so that is why every time people came to see who they wanted to get out, you know, and who they would leave in.

Q: You came to Theresienstadt at the beginning of ‘44?

A: In February, ‘44.

Q: And it was from today to tomorrow that you knew that you were going? Eichmann said, “Send her to Theresienstadt.”

A: Yes. I don’t know how much time that was between that. I don’t know anymore.

Q: And when you first saw Theresienstadt, what did you think?

A: Oh, that it was an ugly place. And still is an ugly place. Because it was made as a garrison.

Q: You saw the wall first and then the “caserna”?

A: Really it was a place only for soldiers. And big “casernas” - how do you call it? Then what they called the “block” and that’s where the officers had lived with their wives and so on. And they had moved the whole village out. All you could see was snow around on the mountains. You know that for years I didn’t want to go to Switzerland. I couldn’t see snow, not on mountains. I mean, in Holland it snows, but I couldn’t, or I didn’t want to see snow. now I’m over it and when we are in Spain I like to go to the Pyrenees. But it took me a long time to get over the snow. Such small things, you know?

Q: You said that when you first came to Theresienstadt you stayed in a big barrack with a lot of women? I suppose you didn’t know anyone. How was it?

A: That was not nice. They were jealous. Each was jealous of each other. I mean, if you have this brooch, they would be jealous that you have that brooch. Not only of me, but of everyone. Don’t forget, by that time you knew that you were in a privileged position to be there. No, I was very happy when I got that tiney little....I had a room not half of what is here, but just a bed and beside the bed, but it was a room. In German they call it “wanzen” (bedbugs). They live in the woods.

Q: Oh yes. Worms or something.

A: No, it’s a kind of...

Q: Termites or something.

A: But they drop on you and they bite, so I had to put a sheet over his bed because otherwise they would have eaten him. It was on the fourth floor. There was no water. You had to get every....pail with water. I had a little electric heater because in the seam of that coat, my father had put gold ten-guilder pieces, so now and then I used one t get something because you could get everything if you had some money.

Q: Yes, but how could you keep the things that people would not steal it from you? The fur coat, the electric heat.

A: No, they didn’t steal. Especially when I was in that house where all young boys between seventeen, eighteen, something like that. They were working hard in the fields.

Q: By the way, you didn’t have a problem with German, with the language?

A: No, for a long time I spoke better German than Dutch, I think. Even now, I have sometimes....now I haven’t spoken it for so long time, but then, when I went to one of the people, the “Jüdisherat”, and most of them were Czech. I knew a few words of Czech to say that I was not a German, but I was Dutch. I had a girlfriend who was Czech and when I went out to get food she would look after Clarence and he would sing little Czech songs because she taught him. You know what was worse? When I got back in Holland.

Q: Why?

A: You know that the Dutch government didn’t do anything for us. We were liberated by the Russians and I was taken out. We had to stay there because there was cholera or something.

Q: Typhus.

A: Typhus, there was typhus. And after the quarantine was open the French Red Cross took me out - not only me - and they brought us to Pilsen - that’s a place close - and they put me into a nunnery. There were nuns. And then one day an American officer came and asked if somebody spoke English. I said yes. He said, “Could you help us for a couple of days?” That was a couple of Americans. Most of them were Jews and most of them were German Jews who had come to the States and were working now in the American army. They were interrogating SS officers. They didn’t want them to know that they spoke German, so I had to ask the questions. They told me and I told them in English, so they had time to listen. And I did that for a couple of days or a week or something like that and then they sent me home with an army plane to Andhoven. You know? Where the big Philips factory is. And there they put me on a mattress on the floor in one of those big halls from the factory together with all the other men and women who had gone voluntarily to Germany to work. I stayed there for two or three days before they let me out and then I went to Rotterdam. I had nobody. I had a cousin of my mother was married to a non-Jewish woman and she took me in. And then after a couple of months my brother got a house and I moved in with my brother. He married his old girlfriend from Vienna who had gone to London and stayed during the war in London and she came to Holland and she married. It was a house like we have in Holland a lot. There is one floor and then you have to get up and then you have half a floor. So he wanted to go to Amsterdam because he could do some business in Amsterdam and he changed the floor he was on and I moved to that half floor and there I lived till 1955.

Q: I want to go back one more to Theresienstadt. It seems like you were really alone in Theresienstadt and not as it was in Westerbork. Is it right?

A: Beside me there was also a small room and there lived a Czech girl and I was a lot with her. I was working. I mean, I had to see that the house was cleaned and so on. And I had to tell one of the boys, “You have to do this” and the other had to do that.

Q: But you can say that you were more lonely in Theresienstadt than in Westerbork?

A: Yes, because in Westerbork there were always people around, because you never were alone. There I was alone.

Q: It was good and bad.

A: I would say it was good. I don’t mind being alone. Even nowadays I don’t mind. I mean, I married my husband and he was a fruit importer, so he went, for long times he went to South America, to Australia, to the States, everywhere. I didn’t mind to be alone. I like being alone. And I think that is why I could survive, because I don’t mind being alone.

Q: But in the conditions of Theresienstadt I suppose you needed help once in a while, especially with the child.

A: It’s a funny thing. I was in the hospital in the beginning of the war because I had a lot of trouble with my gall bladder, and that is how I found out that I didn’t have enough help. I didn’t have any trouble. I wasn’t one day ill all the time I was in the camp. When I felt secure again, then the troubles started.

Q: But when you were “house aelteste” of that group of boys, did you have to take care of the place, that it will be clean and all that? But you were also their governor, or they had someone else?

A: I had to look after them a little bit, yes. I had to inspect their rooms, if they were clean and so on. That kind of thing.

Q: And you weren’t connected to one of the.....there were in the children’s houses, there were a lot of zionist youth movements and so on.

A: Those boys were zionists because they had gone out of Germany when it was still possible to learn in Denmark to come to Israel, and I’m sure they must live in Israel, but I don’t know any names, so it is difficult. I would have liked to see one of them, you know? Because really those boys saved my life with the food, the packages.

Q: Because they received packages from the Red Cross.

A: Red Cross from Sweden.

Q: They could give you....

A: They had five-kilo packages every month. There was knackerbrot, a kilo sugar, a kilo butter.

Q: That’s a lot.

A: I mean, the Swedish was wonderful. The Dutch Red Cross did nothing and they could have done because they had all the gold in the States, the government was in London and they could have sent it via Sweden, but they didn’t do anything.

Q: How did you have, for example, clothes for the baby when he was a little bit older?

A: What he is wearing there I bought with food. I knitted that myself. I knitted his things for him. And then on top of that, one of the boys worked in a place where all the clothes came in from the people who were sent off, and so now and then he would steal something for me and bring it home. Clarence was like a little prince. Everybody knew him.

Q: The first language he learned was Dutch or German?

A: No, I think Czech! He spoke very little till he was two years old and then we came back and he spoke very little. But he spoke from everything a little bit. But I spoke Dutch in Theresienstadt because I went to the laundry to get the diapers and the sheets washed and there was a Dutch gentleman there and he used to be the owner of a big chain of big stores and he was the one who said to me (?) and he said, “If after the war you ever want a job, you can come and get one from me” and I worked for him for eight years after the war.

Q: You can say that in Theresienstadt Clarence was a happy child?

A: Oh, I think so.

Q: He wasn’t miserable there.

A: No, I don’t think so. He had a enough to eat and everybody loved him, so I don’t think...

Q: And all the time he was with you also when you worked?

A: Yes, sure. I had to carry him. I had no pram. No, the thing is, I was one of the lucky ones who came through.

Q: But did you feel lucky at that time, or you say it only today?

A: No, when I look back I say it. Then I didn’t know I was lucky. Then I thought I was fighting for it, you know, and now I think I was lucky to meet some people at the right time, to meet Borashova, who made the picture of me, that somebody recognized it. All those small things together.

Q: How did you meet her?

A: I was walking on the street with Clarence and then I passed her and then we started talking, like everybody started to talk to me because he was a little beauty and she said, “You know that Count Bernadotte is coming and make what they call a (not clear)” - that is, they were making everything nice. “Only the few streets he was walking, and they have asked me to make some painting, a nice painting, so,” she said, “would you pose for me?” I said, “Why not?” And so I became friendly with her and she made a picture from Clarence and then she said....

Q: He stood quietly?

A: No, he sat on a rug. I don’t think so, but it wasn’t made in one day. Then she told me that she wanted to make a whole series of dancers. She knew then that I had danced for along time and she said to me, “I have trouble with Spanish. How do...?” So I took a pose and she said, “Hold it!” And that is this. That is why Yehudith, when she saw it, she was flabbergasted because she said, “We have a lot of them, but from none we know how they were made and where did they come from,” so that is, she said, why she is so happy because she got that now.

Q: What was the subject of the film that you said you were participating in Westerbork?

A: That was just the show. They made a film of that. I haven’t seen it. If I would go to Amsterdam and ask to see it I could see it, but I don’t want to.

Q: And in Theresienstadt you didn’t dance?

A: No. I had a baby. That was a twenty-four-hour job!

Q: And you worked most of the time in that house of the Danish boys?

A: No, I walked in the street. You could walk in the street. Have you been to Theresienstadt? Yehudith told me that recently….

Q: It’s like a city.

A: A little city.

Q: But most of the time your job was to take care of those boys.

A: No, not to take care of the boys, because they were out all day.

Q: To take care of the house.

A: To take care of the house.

Q: And in the summer of ‘44, it’s the time that also from Theresienstadt many, many transports go to the east. How did you manage to stay there?

A: I told you. Because everybody had to go into one of the “casernas” and show the papers and I knew that Eichmann was there and I went to Eichmann. Nobody wanted to go to him. He sent everybody through.

Q: Ah, that was at the time of the transports?

A: That was because of the painting, the portrait Borashova made of me and he recognized it.

Q: So it was at the time of the transports and he, let’s say, gave you a promise that you can stay there.

A: Till the end of the war, yes.

Q: Also he wrote it on a paper?

A: No.

Q: You still didn’t know what the east is?

A: No. I mean, we found out after the war. I mean, I’ll tell you something. I know that once they asked women with children if they wanted to join their husbands and a lot of women voluntarily went on transport because they thought they were going to be with their husbands. They wouldn’t have done that if they knew that their husbands were already dead. They wouldn’t have done that.

Q: But you said you didn’t know anything till after the war, but since the beginning of ‘45, transports began to come back from the east to Theresienstadt and people who were before in Theresienstadt and after that in the camps came back. They were “muselmen” and in very, very bad shape. Do you remember that?

A: I don’t think that they put them in the same place where we were, because after the liberation, then we had the typhus from those people. They brought the typhus in because they came from the camps.

Q: But you didn’t see them before the liberation?

A: No, I don’t think so. I can’t give you an answer on this because I really don’t know.

Q: And even in the summer of...

A: Maybe then I knew, but...I don’t know really. I mean, I can’t tell you if I knew. But I know, now that you say, I knew that people had come back, yes.

Q: And the end of ‘44 and during ‘45 till the Red Cross entered Theresienstadt, there was a big hunger there at that time. Do you remember that?

A: I don’t know that the Red Cross was there. I only know that Bernadotte had been there.

Q: Before the Russians came there was something like a week or two weeks of Red Cross, but before that it was a very difficult time in Theresienstadt also. It was the end of the war.

A: Yes, but don’t forget, till the end, almost till the last week, I got the packages from Sweden.

Q: Almost till the end of the war?

A: Almost till the end of the war. And that was in tins, so it doesn’t spoil.

Q: It means that through the whole war you don’t remember yourself hungry.

A: No.

Q: And of course the child is not hungry if you are not hungry.

A: And I gave my girlfriend because it was so much that I could give other people and I could buy some things, like some wool or something like that, for food.

Q: How did you take care of the child when you said he was ill at the beginning? What could you do?

A: That was before the baby. That was before I started working in the hospital. Then I was ill.

Q: No, no. You said that the baby was ill at the beginning of the time in Theresienstadt. How could you take care of him?

A: I couldn’t take care. They took him away because they thought he had a cough what was infectious. And then after a couple of days they found out that was not and I could take him back again.

Q: But did you have medicines or something like that?

A: No, they didn’t have any medicines. I mean, don’t forget that antibiotics were...after the war we found they had it.

Q: Do you remember what you did? You didn’t have even hot or cold showers to do to the child or something like that.

A: No.

Q: You had to do something.

A: I’ll tell you what I did. In the morning I went to get a bucket of water. I would warm something to give him a bath. After that I would wash myself with the same water and then I would wash his clothes in it. His diapers I could send to the laundry. And then with the same water I would clean the floor. That is what nowadays....I think when people also here say there is not enough water, I wanted to tell them, “You can do a lot with one bucket of water.” I mean, when you go to the toilet in some places, you put on your hand and then water comes. It goes much too long. I mean, you need just to wet your hands, soap it in and then clean them. That in a few seconds you can do that. They should be much more careful with water. I’ve been in Tiberias and the water is very low, and when there doesn’t come rain there will be a big problem.

Q: Did you cook in Theresienstadt?

A: No, I just warmed the porridge and so on and the milk for Clarence. When I went to get the food, it was warm.

Q: Did he play with other children there?

A: No.

Q: Did you have toys for him? What did he do when he was more than a year old?

A: No, I didn’t have toys. That’s why I spoiled my grandchildren so much! And that’s why I gave them everything I couldn’t give my own child, you know? Even my great-granddaughter, I spoil her very much! And it’s lovely to be able to spoil them.

Q: But at that time you felt guilty that you can’t give him everything?

A: No. You don’t understand when you are living in a way that the only important thing is - and I’ve told you before - is to get food the next day and to live the next day. Toys are not important in this context.

Q: But you said that food was not the problem there.

A: No, but I mean...it was not a problem, but I mean we got some food because they wanted to keep the few babies who were there, or the few children, they gave them...they got from the Germans a certain amount of food for the whole Theresienstadt. They gave the children twice as much as the grown-ups. So that is how some children came through because they thought it was more important to keep the children alive than the older people - let’s be frank about it. That’s how they did it.

Q: You mentioned before the visit of the Red Cross, of Bernadotte.

A: Of Bernadotte. He came under the Red Cross flag, but he came only to take the Danish boys out.

Q: So after that you had no job anymore.

A: No, but then other people moved into the house. There was a certain amount he was allowed to take out and two had died and some of those young boys said, “Why don’t you marry me? Then you and Clarence can come with us to Sweden.” I would have done that, but they wouldn’t let me marry him. They didn’t want to let know that they had separated families, you know? The Germans didn’t allow it because then they would have said that my husband wasn’t alive anymore, or his father. So then a few said, “No....” They knew that the packages were still coming, so they gave me papers that I could go and get the packages.

What else do you want?

Q: What else do you remember?

A: I don’t remember much. I think that’s it. (end of side)

Q: What happens to you after the liberation?

A: I told you. I’ve told that already, that I was taken back to Holland and I stayed with a cousin and then my brother got a house in a place near Rotterdam. It’s called Skedam (sp?). It’s five kilometers from Rotterdam. Then my youngest sister married a Canadian and she went to Canada and she was expecting a baby, so my sister and my brother said, “Look, why don’t you go?” My sister said, “I’ll look after Clarence. Why don’t you go to help her?” She was all alone because she was really all alone there. Don’t forget, she was fourteen when the war started. So I went for a couple of months, for six weeks to Canada. And then I came back. I think then I started my job, I worked.

Q: At the place that you knew the man from the laundry in Theresienstadt?

A: Yes. I was sales manager and I worked for very long days because the shop opened at half past eight, but I had to be there at eight o’clock, so I had to leave the house at half past seven. I had to stay there till everybody was gone, so Clarence went to a boarding school and he came home on the weekends. You know, nowadays if you have a baby, you get money, but I didn’t get any money. I got, when I came back, they gave me five thousand guilders and that was all. When they got “Diedergutmachen” from Germany for the Jews, they didn’t give it only to us, they gave it to everybody who had been to Germany, also the ones who went voluntarily to Germany. So I had to work. In ‘52 I met my husband and in ‘56 I remarried and then my husband didn’t want me to work anymore and then Clarence came to live with us. He wanted to adopt Clarence, but at that time it wasn’t possible in Holland to adopt your own child. And so when Clarence became twenty-one, he had to get a request to the queen to be able to change his name into Van Den Berg, so his name is now Van Den Berg. And that’s it.

Q: Okay, thank you very much.

A: You’re welcome.

A: This is my son, Clarence. He was about, I would say, nine months old when that picture was made. It was made by Helen Borashova in Theresienstadt.

A: Borashova wanted to make a series of pictures of dancers and when we were talking, she asked me because she knew I had been dancing. She had trouble with the Spanish one, so I made a pose and that’s it, what you see there.

A: This was the show in Westerbork where I played in, and the first one from my side here, on the left, that is me, with the long hair.

A: This is Clarence with his daughters and his two grandchildren, my great-grandchildren.

A: This is me and Clarence.