מרים ברגר

Name of Interviewee: Miriam Berger Name of Interviewer: Yehudit Soloweitschik Date: August 15, 1996 Cassette Number: VD-1296 A: And on my mother's side, I believe they were fourteen sisters and brothers. From my father's side I have cousins - they live here in Israel - and from my mother's side also. My mother had a twin sister so the twin sister's children live in New York, not in Israel, but with the years everybody gets older and slowly, slowly, we get to that point that the family grows smaller and smaller. Q: Everybody lived in Odoreu? A: No, no. My parents come from Czech. They were both born in Czech. My father didn't want to be in the Czech army. He ran away. He left his family there - his old mother - and he went to Romania. And he was very successful in Romania. Really he made a beautiful living and as the years went by - in my family we were eight brothers and myself. No other girls. So of course I was looked after as a princess. I was the third-born in the family and after me, the boys and I always said, "Why can't I have a sister?" And that's what it is and we accepted it. But the life and the upbringing was not pleasant at all. I was born in 1924. I was a child in the schools - in the school the antisemitism was just overbearing. I was sitting in my classroom one Friday afternoon and the cholent had to be taken to a place Friday that they should cook it. I was sitting by the window in school and saw how my brother went, he took the cholent and right by the door where he had to enter there was a goy and he gave him a "zetz" - I can't describe it differently. The cholent pot fell on the floor. So what can you do Friday afternoon - it's already late to go home for another pot of cholent. And I came home from school, I told my mother, "I saw what was going on. I know we don't have cholent for Shabbos no more." But that was early in the 30's, up until I was born and I grew up to go to school. I don't exactly know which grade I was. I just followed the way. And this is the way we grew up. We knew we are Jews and our mother says, "We are Jews. We have to suffer." Q: There was no Jewish school there? A: No. There was a "cheder". My brothers went to "cheder", but for the girls, we had to go to public school. So that's why my brother was not in school, because we had a "cheder". As a matter of fact, "kein einhora", my house was a house of boys. My father took a "melamed" for our boys. We had the boys and the "melamed" in our house. So anyway, this came till in '39 the Iron Guards came in, so if we didn't have antisemitism then we had some more because the Iron Guards, they were the tops. They had a name that the government already was against the Jews. That was in '39. In 1940 the Hungarians came to Transylvania so we thought we're going to have it better now. No more Iron Guards. So by the Hungarians we had to give over the store for a goy. Q: Let's go back a bit to the time before. How many Jews lived in...? A: In my town? About three hundred families, and they were all "shomer shabbat". They were Jews they had big properties. I mean, I don't know how to - big properties. In Yiddish the name is "getehalters". You know, they had land and they had people working and they were well-off. As a matter of fact, the one descendant after we came back from the Holocaust, he went to Australia and still lives there. Q: Were there any youth organizations? A: No youth organizations, no, because this was children grew up in houses that the parents wouldn't let them go no place. Q: Shabbos you would just sit at home? A: No. No, not sit at home. The boys had their own place in our old shul, but the girls...by the Hungarians girls were not, I was not allowed to go already on the street without a "shomer". My father wouldn't let me. It was war time and soldiers came around through our town and soldiers were there. I was not allowed to go out from the house. Just with a "shomer". Q: But this was already in 1939, '40. A: '40. The beginning, '40 to '44 till we were deported it was really, really bad. Bad. Q: But before that in the house you were protected. You didn't feel. A: No. Except when we went out to school. I mean, the house was a normal Yiddish house, and everybody, we tried to live as normal as possible, except we had to fast every Monday and Thursday - even the children. Q: Who made that "tackone"? A: The Satu-marer rebbe. Q: You were Satu-mare hassidim? A: That's right. Q: The whole town? A: Yes. We knew that and that was not just one month. That was going on, that I remember, for years. Q: So your father would often go to the rebbe? A: Yes. Q: With your brothers? A: No, no, no. The children didn't go, no. My father went. Even when we came to live...after the war, we lived in New York. First we lived in Canada and then we lived in New York. The first year I sent my husband to go to the Satu-mare rebbe for Yom Kippur and my husband told him whose son-in-law he is and the rebbe remembered. Q: "Parnassa" you said you had enough. Nothing missing. A: Nothing missing. Nothing missing. Q: What was your father doing? A: My father was...we had a store, but that's not enough. He had a "mischar" in grain, bought grain. In February we had, like I told you, we had those rich people in our town. They had orchards of apple, of plums, and the bloom comes out in February of those orchards. My father used to buy that as they, I mean, you know, there were acres and acres of...and he used to buy that, pay for that owner this much money and then in the summer when it was...you know, every apple has a different season and I knew the apples' names, every apple's name I knew when it was because I grew up with it. They used to take "shomrim" already when in the summer - they should stay there and people shouldn't come. I mean, that was open there. And they took "shomrim". There was more places than one. That was the "mischar", you know, the orchards and the grain - everything had a season. From the plum they cooked whiskey. Or there is a night of wind and apples fell down, they had to be gathered in the morning and sold also for whiskey. Whatever they came from the big cities and they bought it up and they took them in trucks away or in whatever they had. They had the motor - they had already in my time those big - how can I explain it? I don't remember the name. Just in my language. "Shtrafsecker". You know, in my language I could explain you. They put them in sacks and they took them away to the factories where they belong. And in the fall before the "yomim tovim", the winter apples were took down by hand - he hired people and people to...and they put them in boxes with paper and they shipped them someplace else, so he was busy all year with that. With the apples in the winter, with after they cut the wheat, or those things, they came to us, they measured it. After Shabbos, at night they said, "There is already three stars. You can start weighing up the grain." So it was always "kein einhora". That's the way I grew up. We children had to stay there when they bring the grain. After they measure it they should take it in the back where it belongs. They shouldn't take it away back outside, you know. We were there. Before Pesach the potato time. The potatoes, when they gathered from the fields, they put it in big, big, big...they hid it under straw, it should stay for Pesach, then they get a better price. So we were there to count the sacks and then we were always there to help out and to count and to write down and once I had a paper with me and the goy was waiting, he has to paid for it. They were looking for me in school, that I took the paper in school. I mean, we didnt feel that something is missing. That s why I say that was a place where he was, kein einhora , matzliach , my father was matzliach . Q: So in business they didnt feel so much antisemitism. A: No, because they had no place to sell their products. I mean, they were working for that for six months, the goyim, and after six months they should get their money for it. And they had to come to us or to somebody else and sell it and get their money because during the summer we had to write down whatever they were buying. They had no money to spend. This was in the 30s, not in the 40s. No more. By the Hungarians we had to give over the business for a goy and that s it, he gave us whatever he wanted. Q: Now, the time of the Iron Guard, do you remember more specifically changes? A: Of course there were. Everybody was afraid. We were in Transylvania, but in the other part of Romania it was very bad. They were killing Jews, they were mamash killing Jews. And stories what we read in the papers. I cant tell you places because I don t remember. I only know that it was such a pachad on us that the Iron Guards came in - it was really... Q: But in your place there was no killing. A: No, because they needed us there. We needed them for mischar and they needed us to buy up those things that they grew. Or milk - there were Jews that went to the place, that bought up the milk. I mean, there were lots of Jews in out town. They were there, their children were there when they milked the cows and that was kosher milk and they took it to the city. That was their parnassa , so they needed us. The goyim had cows for that they should sell to the Jews the milk. They didnt take the milk to the city. It was easier if somebody is there and by the end of the week they got their money. And those Jews, they were shomer shabbos Jews and they were taking the milk in wagons to the city and that was their parnassa. In other words, one hand washed the other. That s how the saying goes. They needed us and we needed them for the parnassa , but in the 40s was already very bad, when the Hungarians came in. Q: So right away you had to hand over the business? A: Yes. Right away we had to hand over the business. That s right. And the life was already very bitter. We were there and we saw whats going on. We grew up with it. It was really very bitter. They were just...for no reason those goyim who used to be...the one he was a shomer by us in the orchard, when the Hungarians came in, for no reason they attacked my father. I mean, he made a living from us and when it came to attacking the Jew he was there to hit the Jew. Q: So you had to stop completely, all kinds of business and whatever? A: Yes, we had to stop. And then it started. Already in 40 we went in the city and we saw the German Jews were already in cattle cars. They started with the German Jews. Cattle cars were standing in the train station. Q: That was in Satu-mare. A: In Satu-mare. Full of Jews, and they were begging just for a little water. They were ready to give anything, just give them a little water. And nobody was allowed to talk to them because they were the Hungarian soldiers and they were just plain soldiers, they were told that nobody should go to them. The war was on already between Germany and England so it was....we felt it very bad, very bad. And to stand by and not to help those Jews, to give them a drink a water, that was the worst. Q: That was already later. When was that? A: No, in 40 already. Yes, in 1940. Not later, no. Gradually each country of Europe, slowly, slowly each country was gathered up, but it started with the German Jews. Q: How long could you go to school? A: By 40 I stopped, I didn t go. We had the cheder for the boys, but I wasnt allowed to go to school no more. They didn t let us to be educated. In the high schools they threw out the Jews already. The doctors they stopped, the Jewish doctors - they threw them out. Or the lawyers. It was already, everything was....I was still young that time, but I heard whats going on. My father used to bring in the newspaper, I should read. I went to Romanish school, but Hungarian I taught myself because he brought in the newspaper we should know what s going on in the world with the war because there was the war, in Africa was already the war. And he wanted I should know whats going on and I had to just take the newspaper and learn it on my own. Q: At home what language did you speak? A: Yiddish. We spoke Hungarian. We had to speak to the goyim. We spoke Hungarian perfect. But the schooling stopped there in 40. They didn t need the Jews should educate themselves. Q: What were you doing then? From 1940 what were you doing? A: I was always very active with my hands. My mother taught me to knit and to crochet and handwork. There is no handwork that I dont know because my fingers were always....I never sat idle. And to read, let it be in Yiddish, the newspaper - in Satu-mare they had Yiddish newspapers. My father brought it home and I read it perfect in Yiddish. Also I learned...my father helped me do it or I had a rebbetzin who gave me private lessons. Q: Who was that? A: Her husband was a "dayan" in our town. I wouldn't remember the name. He passed away and she made her "parnassa" teaching girls. She didn't make a Beth Jakov. She had two girls, three girls here and there and she taught us. Davening or read or write in Yiddish. My grandfather used to write letters to my mother in Yiddish and I read the letters, I was really, really very young. That gave me the initiative that I wanted to read and write in Yiddish. When I went to uplan here, the teacher told me, "Miriam, that's Yiddish, that's not Ivrit." Q: Did you ever think of moving away from Odoreu? A: No. Where? No place, no place. Except when they gathered us in the ghetto, that was very bad because the youngsters could have gone away. Before the ghetto they took away the fathers from the family. They knew, I mean, the "memshala" knew what's coming so they arrested the fathers, my father together with other fathers, and they took them away to the Tolone house in Budapest. Of course, this was Hungarian and they took them away before us. They took them away before Pesach and a day after Pesach they gathered us together to take us in the ghetto. So they took away the father, the family shouldn't be together, they shouldn't run away. Q: So still in the years under the Hungarians, from '40 till the Germans came in, it was getting worse and worse? A: It was very bad. The "mishtara" came not once in our house and they turned over the beds and everything. They were looking always for contraband because they knew who, the local authority knew who makes business where, so they knew in a Jewish home they were always looking for money or gold or whatever it is, so many times my father went to "mincha", shabbos, and shabbos they came to look for, it's called contraband. They're looking for something, we have hidden something. And it so happened that I used to read Hungarian novels - my father didn't know that - and they found under my cushion Hungarian novels, when they were looking for something hidden. And they opened it up and they can read, they saw what it is. They went away with nothing. My father - I came home from the girls, from someplace - he confronted me: "What is this? This is something new." If the "mishtara" wouldn't come in he wouldn't know that I read novels. Youngsters, we wanted to know everything. Even today I am a big reader, I am an avid reader. I read in Ivrit also, not so good - I would like to read, but I don't understand everything, so I bought books that youngsters get and it's with "nikudot" and I read a lot. Q: So then when your father confronted you, you had to stop with that? A: My mother knew that I read, so she intervened that I could read. I mean, it wasn't something...it was novels. Q: So your father hid away things, he managed to hide away? A: No, no. No, he didn't, no, because....we didn't believe it that that's going to be the end, that they're going to take. We didn't believe it. We always said...I asked my father what's going to be the end? He says, "Hashem will help." That was the answer. We have to have the "bitochen" maybe "Hashem" will help. Q: You had no Polish refugees that came over to you, that you could hear what was going on in Poland? A: I was in Slovakia to visit my grandfather and there I saw people that came back. To us, no, they didn't come. I mean, this was too far. They couldn't travel to us, but in the place where my grandfather lived, they came... Q: Where was that? A: It's a place called Orsava. It's a very Yiddishe city and there I saw people "mamash" that they came out of the grave, that they shot them and they thought everybody is dead, but this man was not dead. Everything settled down, he came out of the grave alive, so I saw him by my grandfather's house. But, I mean, we didn't believe it that things happened in Poland and in Germany and around us and there was no more contact with the family. There was no more communication with the families. The times were just....we as youngsters, we thought, "This is it and it's going to go, and it's going to disappear." But it didn't. Because every day was worse and worse. The ghetto life is just...I can't even describe it because people, they couldn't believe that they gather everybody from their homes. Everything is flowing in the morning and then in the daytime, in the nighttime and the next morning everyone is gathered up and you have to go, you leave everything. In the ghetto everybody was assigned to a family. We came to the family and there were furniture in the house. There were about seven families from the surrounding cities, from the surrounding area came to Satu-mare. There was designated a few streets - this is the ghetto. Q: Your ghetto was in Satu-mare? A: Satu-mare. Let me tell you. In the morning, one morning I see there were cupboards with "seforim" because this man was a "batim-macher" where we were assigned, he made tefillin. And they took these "seforim" and they put them on the floor, they took the cupboard, they took it out and they cut it up for burning to cook a meal. So I said to the girl, "Kreinshu, what are you going to do when we come back? You'll have no furniture." She says, "Oh, Narele, Moshiach wert du sein!" So what can you answer to that. And her father told us...no, Kreinshu told me because I was with Kreinshu in Birkenau. We were with my friend through the year. He told us that we should eat whatever they give us because it's "pikuach nefesh". We came to Birkenau a day before "Shavuos". We wouldn't eat. We were sitting in the sun all day outside. I mean, there was nothing to drink and nothing to eat, but still when they gave us the ration we didn't eat that ration - that's "traife". We gave it to other girls. We were starving ourselves, a few of us girls, we were starving ourselves, a few of us girls, we were starving ourselves. The other girls, "Yes, give it to us. We'll give you for you a potato or a drink," but it never happened. So in the end, Kreinshu said, "Miriam, we can't starve." Then she told me, "My father says, 'Whatever they give us to eat we should eat.'" Q; Let's go a bit back. The day the Germans came in to Odoreu do you remember? A: The Germans didn't come in. They just gave orders for the Hungarian "mishtara" what to do. Q: And they took you the day after Pesach? A: Yes. Q: How were you taken to Satu-mare? A: Any goy would volunteer to take away the Jews. They came to the door and just pack whatever you have and go. They were happy that the Jews go out. Q: So your mother was there with all the children? A: Yes. And then we were sorry to leave because when they gathered us in my village, we were across from my house in the school - in the school we were gathered there. And a "goythe" used to milk the cow and bring us the milk, our own milk, there. At least we had milk. We had no cooked food. We were there about five, six days, gathered there in the school, but we had no cooked meal, no bread, no nothing and she brought us the milk from our own cow that she milked it. And I remember in a big jar she brought it and everybody had a cup and they divided, whoever should have some milk. Q: So there what were they doing? They were searching? A: They were searching. They were searching the men separate and women separate, if they hid away some, but who hid? Jewellery, they were looking for jewellery. Q: Were they hitting people there? A: Yes, that's right. Q: Your older brothers were then also...? A: My older brother was taken to work commando it's called. To work, who knows where. They just called him up and took him away and that's it. Q: When was that? A: That was in the '40's. They didn't let the men home. They took them away to, the young men, to work on the..whatever they gave them to work, they just shouldn't stay home. Q: And he could never come home in between? A: No. Q: But you were in contact? A: No. Well, he wrote very sparsely, you know, we didn't get much. No, we didn't know about him. And every able-bodied youngster was away, till a certain age. They were in work commandos, yes, that's right, they were in work commandos. Even young married men were away. They put them in other countries, not even in our country. They took them to other countries to work. "Schutzgraben" or whatever they felt like. I remember now that all the young married men, they were not home. Q: So just one brother was taken or both brothers? A: Both brothers. The older brothers were taken away. And the younger children, we were with my mother. Q: So that's how you were taken after five days you said? You were taken to Satu-mare. A: To the ghetto. And there we were about one week and they gathered us all up. From Pesach till Shavuos are six weeks, so that time it took to gather us up to Satu-mare. But it was very dire circumstances. There was hunger, there was dirt, so many people gathered up in a little place. It was just unbelievable how...we were not used to that. We always said, "It's going to end, it's going to end." But it didn't end. So when we were walking to the train station in Satu-mare to be taken away, there were Jewish boys taking care nobody should go out from the line. My mother asked them, "So would you tell us where you're taking us?" "Don't worry. You're going on a work commando. Nothing will happen to you." That was we were told. Q: In Satu-mare were you given food in the ghetto? A: No, no. No. The hunger was very bad because people didn't horde food. First of all, for bread or for flour we were on "cartisim". The "memshala", when the grain was gathered, then the "memshala" took away the grain and they just gave everybody for so much to live, on "cartisim". Everybody. And there was no flour and no bread in the stores, just whatever you can buy, wherever you could get it. Q: Were the people going out to work who were in the ghetto? A: No. Q: Everybody was just sitting? A: That's all, that's all. They were just gathering together the people from the surrounding area and when everybody was gathered, then they started to take them to the stations, to take them away. That was even worse. Whatever happened in the lagers, in this lager and that lager, we know people worked or people didn't get food and they were starved. There was a starvation. But this was worse because from your home they took you together in ghetto. It was something excruciating pain, it was so bad. Here I had my own home and now I have to share it with fifty people in a room. And the stench and the dirt - it was bad. It was just, from one day to the next, it was very bad. Imagine, I mean, you have your own home and your own little corner and you know whatever you have or you haven't you make a meal, but there you have nothing. They just gathered you. For what? To be there. Q: So before Shavuos you were taken on transport? A: To Birkenau. Q: The journey, can you describe? A: The journey was very, very, very....undescribable because there was no water and gathered together hundred people in one compartment. There were dead people with sick people, with old people, with screaming people. It was really just dreadful. Dreadful. I don't have the words to describe it because just a little water we didn't get. They closed the doors, they pushed us in and closed the doors like, and that's it. And the crying didn't stop because there were babies and old people and then, excuse me, we needed something to relieve ourselves. We had to make a curtain to be able to relieve ourselves. And who couldn't, everything was wet and stinking and it was...After three days in the trains and when they didn't have the lines open, they would put us to wait there till the lines because they gathered that time, I saw in a magazine this week that I just remind myself that it was true, that the Hungarian people were...You see, I don't have a number because there was no time to put a number already. They gathered everybody so fast and that they were afraid there is no time to gather everybody to Auschwitz. So some people didn't even have time they should give them a number. When they opened up the wagons they just threw out the dead people. There were dead people in the wagons. Q: So you arrived there by day or by night? A: By day, Sunday morning. I remember we "bensched" Rosh Chodesh, shabbos in the train. Sunday we arrived and I don't remember, Monday or Tuesday was the first day of Shavuos. I think five days of "chodesh" is Shavuos. Q: Six days. A: So anyway, that's why I remember that. That I remember because when we got there we were already like zombies. Everybody. It was very, very hard and it's stinking and it was undescribable. We were in Birkenau... Q: And you were taken off the train? A: We were gathered up to go to the showers. One group got water and one group got gas. That's all. Q: You were together with your mother? A: We were separated. Yes, on train we were together, but we were separated. My mother was forty-two when they took her away. And I said to my mother, "I want to go with you." She said, "No, you can't come with me. Go with Kreinshu." Q: Kreinshu was the same age as you? A: Yes. Not my sister. Q: Same age. A: Yes. Q: And your brothers? A: Went with my mother. Q: All the brothers? A: No. In the beginning they did, but after that line was...as we came down from the train my mother had two pieces bread put away for me and she put it for me in the hand. She put it for me in the hand. Alright. I didn't say nothing. I mean, she saved it that I should have it. She sent me with Kreinshu and after that, the older boys - I have four brothers, they came back. The oldest brother was in the work commando - he came back after the war - and three others survived the camp. And four didn't survive. I mean, four are alive and four didn't survive, the younger ones. I didn't know about them till we met at home after the war. We knew that whoever is going to stay alive will meet at home. We met at home and then everybody went on their way. Q: So you were taken, after the selection you were taken to the showers? A: Yes. But we were assigned a place where to stay, but it was really just we thought it's going to be temporary till they're going to find out, then they'll burn us also. Q: You knew what this camp was about? A: Oh yes. We came in, we smelled already, we smelled the burnt flesh. When we came in from the train we smelled already what's going on. Sure. We heard that they're burning people. This is unbelievable how the world was quiet about this. This we will never understand, we will never understand. Here they know what's going on in this corner of the world, in that corner of the world, but it was just fifty-two years ago. Why did the world just clamp up and not take responsibility for those people. I mean, we were "hefker" - that's in Ivrit - "hefker" for everybody. To kill and to maim. That's what we were hoping that the world will be there and help us. And day after, that lasted five years. Q: So you were taken to such barracks? A: Yes. There we slept on the stone floor, and I contracted kidney trouble for the rest of my life. Q: You did not get such a board to sleep on? A: Nothing, nothing, nothing. I mean, just on the floor, on the stone. It was stone and the kidneys trouble I have for the rest of my...When we came to Canada I was diagnosed that for the rest of my life I will have kidney troubles and I have it. Q: So there you were very cramped together? A: It was prepared very, very big. Yes, we were cramped together because nobody wanted to be separated. We tried to be together, those who know each other. But we knew already, we saw already next morning how they collect the dead people from every....they put all the dead people in the front and they just collected them on the trucks - young and old. And some of them had "sam" with them and they took their lives. They still had time to do that. Q: And there was "appell" every day? A: Yes, that's right. Not every day. It was four o'clock in the morning. But we were treated like not human. We just had to go where we were told, otherwise you had to be sent away. If you don't do, well, they just put down your number and you get sent away. That we learned right away. If you don't behave you'll get sent away and you'll never come back. Q: Who was your "blockaelteste"? Do you remember? A: No. Some Jewish girl. Q: How did she treat you? A: It's not nice. Should I talk about a Jewish girl? She learned from the Germans, "You Schweinehund". That's what we were. We were not human by them. We were "hundschwein" or "schweinehund", whatever they felt like. We were just a number, we were not human by them. Q: Food - what did you get? You said in the beginning you refused to eat. A: Yes, we refused to eat and then we had, excuse me, constipation and then they wouldn't even let us stay in the toilets. They were chasing out because they didn't have enough toilets. They had to chase people to finish fast because the next group has to come. And we had no drinks during the day. I mean, we had a black coffee in the morning and that had to last till the next morning. There was no water someplace, no place. A bird wasn't seen all day - a bird or a flower. It was summer. We said, "Where are the birds?" Not even the birds could stay there from the stench. Q: What were you doing all day long? A: Just sitting in the sun because there was not a tree and we were not allowed to go inside. Just stay outside. And if it was raining, it was raining because that "clime" it wasn't like our "clime". When it came rain it rained. We were happy when they assigned us to work commando already, to go to other cities. Q: When was that? A: That was in August. In August of '44. Q: So about two and a half months you were in Auschwitz. A: Yes, that's right. In August we were selected - five hundred women and girls were sent away. Q: In that time, those two and half months, were there selections? A: Yes, because there were older people and they selected them out. Q: During "appell", or they specially came into the block? A: They brought in names, a list of names. They brought in this and they should gather together. Q: How was the morale between the girls? (end of side) A: The morale was that every day was a year and it seemed to be a year because to come from home and everybody has their own things to accomplish and "pittom" we're just in a place and we're waiting for the "malach hamoves", when he's going to come. So everybody can write a book from a day, where the "machshava" was. We were not by ourselves, we didn't believe this is happening to us. We couldn't believe it. Yesterday we had a home and we were occupied and we were doing what is the time and the place and here we're waiting for the "malach hamoves". There were girls that knew "tehillim" by heart, so we gathered together and we used to say a few "kapitlech", "tehillim", but that's all because those who didn't know it by heart, they couldn't even keep up with them because we were saying how lucky they are they know it by heart and we have just to listen to them. But it was just "pist". "Pist" means you're just waiting for the "malach hamoves". I repeat it already the third time, but that's the truth. Q: That's how you felt. No hope whatsoever. A: No, no hope. If we go, excuse me, we go to the toilet, they chase us. We go to wash our hands, they chase us. So it was a big place there outside and we had no place to stay because they were just chasing us, the Germans. They were women soldiers. They didn't know what to do with themselves so they were chasing us. And inside we were not allowed to stay in the barracks, so we figured, when we heard already there is a selection, that they took us for work groups, alright, we were waiting for the day when they put us in a transport. Of course we wanted to be with the group that we know already. They cut us up. They counted so many girls - this is five hundred, this is it, the end, and sisters were separated and mothers from daughters were separated. And then they started screaming and beating and then they just picked them up and took them away. Nobody saw them after that. So every move was a "sakana". If you stayed in one place, then you were a zombie. If you were happy that they take you away to work, then you already, you figured you know that group, you want to stay with that group. That wasn't good because they cut it up and your friends went on the other side. But the day came they sent us away - our group and other groups. In August they sent us away to a place called Gelsenberg. We didn't stay there long. We were working in an ammunition factory. We didn't stay that long so our group was gathered again and they sent us to Essen. Q: How many were taken to Gelsenberg? A: Five hundred. I'm sorry. To Gelsenberg two thousand. I'm sorry, two thousand, but from there they selected five hundred and they sent us away to Essen. But in Essen they put us in wooden barracks. Alright, the way we came there is "lo hashuv". Q: How did you...? A: No, we were just, we were happy because we saw it's an industrial city and in an industrial city the bombs came and near our barracks where we were assigned there were the flares, that the flares look for the airplanes, if the airplanes are German or they are English. So our barracks were near the flares. And one nice day - I think it was in New Year's - the bombs came and the bombs were designed for the flares. They bombed our barracks. We were in the bunkers and when we came back everything was burned down and there were a few girls sick in the room, they didn't go down into the bunkers and they were burned there. That was once. Then they put up a makeshift barracks very fast. Two weeks later we come up from the bunkers, those makeshift barracks were also gone. So excuse me, those barracks had the toilets. Everything burned down, so they put us in the bunkers. We were working all day, we came home, we had no place to wash that one dress it should be clean. We used to, in the barracks we used to wash it in whatever, I mean, we had no wardrobe to go select the clothes. We had to wash that one dress and put on a blanket and wait till it dries up and then we should wear it again. We couldn't go ask our mother what should we put on like at home because we had no clothes and no mothers. So in that bunkers, excuse me, they made there and we lived there and it was stinking all winter. And it was just....and if some girls were missing the blanket or they wanted two blankets, then they went out of the door, they pulled down the blankets from the other ones sleeping, so the others ones had no blanket at all. And there was winter, there was snow. We were working in the snow. At night the snow fell and we had to..we had no shovels to shovel away. I mean, whatever work we were given we had to do it. We were happy to stay in the workplace. Q: What was your work in Essen? A: Work was to take munition from one place to the other, just we should be busy. I dont know, I didn t see any result of that work because we worked in the daytime and at night the bombs came and bombed it. Q: Physically it wasnt hard work. A: It was, it was hard work. It was hard work. But whoever, the strong girls, they had to put in really hard. I wasn t so strong. I was never a tall girl, but I had to be there. They cut that steel, by the machines to cut the steel, and it was for munition purposes, that steel. They had to tie that in those big, big bunches to carry in another place and there was always something to do. Q: It was civilians taking care of you or SS? A: No, SS, but they were men working and they were assigned. There were men also working. It was by "Krupp", it was a very big place. We were assigned the guard. The guards were all over, there shouldnt be contact. By every machine there was a worker or two and a guard. There shouldn t be contact. Q: There was absolutely no contact? A: No contact whatsoever, no contact whatsoever. But we were happy to be there. At least there we were not in the stink in our bunker because those months to stay there - we came home from work, we were given the supper in there to go in that stinking bunker. Till end of March, end of winter, and we were taken to Bergen-Belsen already. Q: In those bunkers who was taking care of you there? A: They were the men, shomrim . Q: Who came inside? Or upstairs? A: No, they were outside. They changed them very often, but they were outside. Q: There was a Blockaelteste , somebody in charge of you? A: They kept us already - the war was coming closer - so everything was temporary there, except that we had not enough blankets because they couldnt get in more replacements for blankets. We needed blankets because the blankets got wet from the, the bunkers were wet. We were sweating from the perspiration so the water came on us like rain at night. The blankets got wet and it was so much dirt there and so many lice that the lice ate us up. The lice were under the skin. Q: People didn t get ill from it? A: We ended up all with typhus. We all ended up in Bergen-Belsen, we all ended up with typhus. Every one of us was sick. Q: The food in Essen was better than in Auschwitz? A: I tell you, I never mentioned food, I was never big for food, so that didnt matter to me. Bread, no bread - we got that portion bread and a plate of soup and that s all. I mean, everybody came home just skinny, but some people are better eaters and some people are not and I never complained. I didnt ever mention that we...even now, I didn t mention because by me... Q: It didnt bother you so much. You didn t feel hungry? A: Well, I felt hungry. I had no breira . Q: It didnt bother you. A: I had no breira. By me, mostly the dirt. The dirt, that was unbearable, the dirt. Q: Where did you have water to wash yourself? A: So we didn t wash. Wash from the rain. We didnt wash. That s why we had so much lice and dirt. Or if it was raining, then we were happy outside to stay in the rain. Q: And you were the whole time together with your friend? A: Yes. We were five of us - two were women, young, married women, their children were taken away from them, and three girls and we were through the whole year together. One lives in Kiryat Yoel, near Monsey - Kiryat Yoel. And three came on aliyah here after the war. And I was also in Canada first and then in Brooklyn. Q: But that kept you actually going, that you were together, this group? A: Oh yes, oh yes. We were really helping each other, oh yes, the three of us. I had relatives, but I choose to stay with this. First of all, my mother said, Stay with Kreinshu. There I was, that was the beginning, and we were together, the five of us. Other women, they also stuck together and that helps to survive. Q: The work was only done in daytime or at times also at night. A: No, just in daytime. The work that I was consigned - just in the daytime. I dont know how others had it, but that was by us. Q: Did you get beaten there, in Essen? A: No, I wouldn t say, I wouldnt say. Oh yes, we were beaten if they didn t like whatever, we didnt stay straight or sometimes some woman didn t want to go to work in the morning, so the the Blockaelteste went to complain for the officer. Yes, they were chased, they were beaten, they were solitary confinement. Q: For what? A: Because they were fluechtlinge . In other words, he was responsible for us. They didnt behave the way he wanted to. Life the way it should be, wasn t. We talked. First of all, its never out of our minds and when we get together or we just know whoever was in our matzav, then we talked just about that, nothing else. Among ourselves. That was life and we had it in common and we talked about it, but not to the family. It doesn t come. In other words, I close it inside and thats it. That was my life. But if there is somebody who was there and lived it through, then we open up because there is nobody you could read or whoever could read about it years and years in books, there is no such thing. That feeling that we have, nobody could have that. Q: I suppose you cant put it down in writing also. A: No, no, no. People have misfortunes, that s life, but this is separate from everything because for no reason, just because I am a human being and take me out and do with me whatever you want - why does it come to me? I mean, what was the reason? What was the reason? That we cant understand. That we were chosen. And I ll tell you something else. We were just sorry that we didnt go with the other side, that they got burned, finished, gamarnu, that s all. We suffered. For what? Other people, all the years they smelled flowers, they heard a bird singing and we didnt, and we missed that very much. Q: Still in Essen, did they make appell? A: Sure. Because there were girls who were really sick and couldn t go to work, so they had to have their numbers, they had to go out to work and they had to know that nobody should be missing in the afternoon when they come back, so they had to have appell . Q: Twice a day? A: Sure. Sure. They were responsible. We were not counted as people, but they were responsible still. Q: So when this bombing came, actually you were happy. You felt the end is coming closer. A: Yes, we knew already that it is coming closer. Yes, but it wasnt soon enough because after they came closer they gathered us up and they took us to Bergen-Belsen and Bergen-Belsen was a hellhouse. Q: How were you taken? A: We were walking for two days first because the war was really close and the communications somehow, they had no trains, but after two days they put us on trains to take us to Bergen-Belsen. Bergen-Belsen was also undescribable. We got sick when we came there already. There was also the end of the war because we were liberated in April in Bergen-Belsen, but we heard already the fight, we could hear the war, the way they were conducting it. When the SS left, the Wehrmacht was in charge and the Wehrmacht was all kind of people from Europe, not Germans - Hungarians mostly. And they were cruel. They were just shooting right and left. We were, I think, three days and the Wehrmacht was there and it was a sakana to go out. They were just shooting. They were running around, they didnt know what they were doing. And girls from our group died at that time because they shot them. Q: That was just before liberation. A: Yes. Q: Can you describe a bit what you saw when you arrived in Bergen-Belsen? A: Yes, I can describe. There were mounds and mounds of dead people, not covered, just dead bodies. They gathered so many people, sick people, and they walked them so long that they just perished when they came there and we saw big...and then the typhus broke out. When we came there, slowly, slowly, slowly everybody got sick and they just perished there. I know Kreinshu was very sick, she had diarrhea and she asked me, Just a drink. So I went to the Lageraelteste, wherever they were, and I asked her, I must have some liquid. So she gave me a little because she knew me - she is also from Satu-mare - she knew me, she gave me. I took it to Kreinshu she should drink and Kreinshu will never forget that, how I saved her life with a little coffee. And I myself was also sick. And there was such a chaos, dead people everywhere...I mean, that is undescribable, to suffer a year through. Some of them suffered more than one year because those from Poland, they were in Lager for three years. And to end up there - the English gave them that Spam, they came in and they gave them that fat Spam, and that was cold. Everybody got diarrhea from that. Men came into our quarters already - that was in between. It was not liberated, but it was when the Wehrmacht were. So anyway, the people were just having the food in their hand, but they were dying already. So much death there on the surroundings, it was just unbelievable. I can t describe it and Im sure other people before me couldn t describe it also. It was very, very....to give that fat, cold food for people, for sick people. We didnt come from hotels, we came from other workplaces and we were treated like...inhuman. They were standing on trucks and they were throwing the Spam for the people. Whoever catched it opened it up because they had the key on it, on the can - they had the key, they could open it up - started to eat it right away, then they were finished. Q: You found yourself still a place in a block where to stay or you were outside for those two weeks? A: It was very bad because there were all kinds of...there were gypsies and if we ate outside, they gave us our portion outside, the gypsies went around in groups and took it away from our hands, so we didnt have food till the next day. So it was just....not inside was stinking. Everybody was sick. After that they gathered us up and they took us to hospitals. Q: That was already after liberation? A: Yes, but we were just half-dead. Q: You were given food till the end? A: No. They broke up the magazines and they took out from the magazines because it was already, the last three days were very...That s why I say it was a sakana to sit inside, it was a sakana to go outside because the Wehrmacht, they didnt know what they re doing so they were shooting people who went to break up the magazines. They were shooting at people. And there was no room to walk outside because so many dead people, they were not gathered together even. They had no place till the soldiers, the English soldiers had to go...it was near our barracks so I could see the mound of dead and from morning to night they were staying there and they made holes to bury the people. All kind of nationalities they buried together there. Q: Not only Jews, I suppose. A: Not only Jews, no. Q: So by then you were so weak you werent even able to do anything? A: We were all, they just picked us up from the floor and I don t remember when it happened, when they took us away. I just remember that I opened my eyes and it was white walls. Q: You were unconscious? A: Yes. I didnt know. That was already..but we didn t care actually. So much misery around that we didnt care. It didn t happen fast enough. Those who came out, we suffered also till they cleaned us up because they had to put us in a special machine to clean the lice. Q: So how long were you in the hospital for? A: I dont remember. Q: You don t know for how long. A: I dont remember. Q: And how did you get back home? A: After the hospital those who got well, they made groups and they sent us to lagers in Germany. And I told them I wanted to go to the Czech lager because I figured there I will find some family and I did, I did find family there. Q: Cousins. A: Cousins. And after that it was already in May, when Roosevelt - I remember the day when Roosevelt died - he died in May, I don t know the date. I was a always a politician. Anyway, he died and that day I remember I was assigned to the Czech lager and after that we drifted this lager and that lager till finally Erev Tisha B'Av we came to Romania. We travelled from place to place till I want to go home and I want to see who is going to be home. That was the only wish. Q: I remembered now, you mention Erev Tisha B'Av. In the camp did you know when it was Tisha B'Av and when it was Yom Kippur? A: Yes. Somehow we knew. Yes. We knew when it was Pesach, we knew when because in Bergen-Belsen was the Satu-mare rebbe for that Pesach. And we walked to Bergen-Belsen, we walked by the family camp and we were told there were some big people, a sister was in my group and a brother was by the Satu-mare rebbe and he talked by the gate there, that this is the place where the Satu-mare rebbe is. And that was a family camp with hasidim. They had Pesach there. And after Pesach they moved him to Switzerland, the Satu-mare rebbe, and we were there waiting in the camp. They told us, "A few more days and it will be over." Q: Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur you knew? A: We knew, we knew. We even fasted Yom Kippur. We knew. Somehow we had an Italian woman in the factory where we were working and they somehow got a "luach", they put their hands on a "luach", and there were girls in my group that they got that "luach" and then we knew everything. We knew the "Yamim Noraim", we knew Yom Kippur and we fasted Yom Kippur. Q: We go back. You got home to Odoreu. A: I found the brothers, four brothers. Q: They were already home? A: Yes, and they were also waiting to see if their sister is going to come back. And we knew that my mother went with the younger ones, but we figured my father didn't come with us and maybe, he's young, but he didn't come back. So then everybody dispersed. We went to Germany again, that we should be....we didn't want. We said the place has blood, that we were born we don't want to stay there, so we went away to Germany and to wait our...go wherever we can to start our new life. Q: And when did you get married? A: In 1950. Q: Where? A: In Canada. Q: And from Canada you moved to New York? A: New York. Q: You said your children you never told what you went through? A: No. We made up with my husband, I said this is it. That was our destiny and they don't have to know. They learn about it, but not while they're growing up. Q: And they didn't ask you? A: They did and I told them, "You're too young. When you'll grow up we'll tell you about it." But we couldn't do it. We just couldn't. My older son has three daughters. In their school they wanted to hear the grandparents' life story. They pestered me and I said to the older one three years ago, "Okay, Ahuva." She bring a tape recorder and I will start. I started for fifteen minutes and I choked up and I said, "Ahuva, I'm sorry. I cannot do it because it's..this is my life. You will read about it sometime, somewhere. I can't do it." Q: You never went back to Europe? A: No. I'm sorry. Sure. We went from...my husband's mother died from sickness when he was twelve. They made groups from America to go to Hungary, so I said, "Let's go to your mother's grave." We went with a group and my husband, he couldn't find her grave because it was all broken up, the whole "beis oilom". So my husband says, "We're here. Let's go to your birthplace." I said, "Oh no. I am out of it. That's it. That's passed and I don't want to go there no more." We had a big house, but I don't care. People went and sold, I didn't. I don't want to have from it "hana'a" and I don't want to see it and that's all, I didn't go. We were there in Hungary. Just take a train and go over in Romania, but I said I'm not interested. And Poland, to the see the "k'vorim", I have no "koach". Q: So you moved here nine years ago? A: Yes, to retire. Q: And "Baruch HaShem", you have "naches". A: "Baruch HaShem". Yes. I am very, very, very happy here, we are happy. My husband gets big "kavod" in his shul, we donated a "Sefer Torah" in the parents' name. I told my husband, "I never took a penny wages. I want to have a "Sefer Torah". So we did it five years ago, "Baruch HaShem". Q: Thank you very much.