ליזה צפניק

Name of Interviewee: Liza Chapnik

Name of Intervier: Varda Butcher

Cassette Number: VD-1058

Interviewer: This is Yad Vashem. I'm Varda Butcher and I'm interviewing Liza Chapnik. Shalom.

Liza Chapnik: Shalom.

Interviewer: Please tell us, Liza, where were you born.

Liza Chapnik: Alright, so I'll tell you. And so my name is Liza Chapnik. I was born in Grodno, Poland, so up till 1939. In 1939 when the Soviet Russia came in, I was in Russia, in the Soviet Union.

Interviewer: What year were you born?

Liza Chapnik: 1922. In Grodno. A few words about my parents. I should say that all my family which was large perished during the war in the Holocaust. My daddy, Yosef Chapnik, he was a religious man. My mother, Ethel Chapnik, she was not religious. We had a little shop in Grodno - button shop. It was inherited from my granny, grandmother. And there are in our family four children. The oldest is Bertha Chapnik and then Goldenberg. She was a teacher and she had a kindergarten and she was a teacher at school. My second sister, Sarah Chapnik, she was a pharmacologist, you see. She worked at the chemist's. And my brother, Grisha Chapnik. Grisha graduated from the Warsaw University, the Faculty of...Polytechnical Faculty. He was an engineer, an electrician, and similtaneously he graduated from the law faculty - he should have been a lawyer, an advocate, but because he was a Jew and because of his left views, he was not allowed to have his practice either in Grodnocort or in Warsaw. So my family couldn't support him, his studies in Warsaw, and Janos Korchak helped him and so he helped some Jewish students. He gave him and Samuel Katovska also from Grodno, his close friend, a room in his orphanage and food, so I don't know - maybe dinner - and they worked each day three hours, three, four hours with the children after the school - they helped them. So thus, Janos Korchak helped them to study and to graduate.

And I am the fourth child. I was a pupil at school. I'll say a few words so later on, but I had many, many uncles and aunts and cousins - the family was very large and all the family perished - the only one, that's me, myself that survived. What should I say? I finished school in 1941 and you see, on the 21st of June - this is fate - I got my certificate. By the way, I started and finished school together with Hasi Beliska Bornstein who lives here in Lachavot Habashan and Bronje Weinitska Klibunsky who lives in Jerusalem and worked all her life in Yad Vashem. So we studied at one school and finished the same day. There was a party of the 21st of June and we got at the party the certificates. Excellent certificates and we planned about our future and thought what would we do. And we returned home late at night and suddenly - we accompanied our director, Ohanyena Vanincheyna - and suddenly we heard an awful sound, like a storm and fire we saw, but nobody, none of us could guess that it was the beginning of the war because Grodno is just on the border, you see? Of Poland, yes, of that part which had been occupied, and the eastern part. It was night and so Grodno was in fire before the war was announced. Next day on Sunday at twelve o'clock, Molotov, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Soviet Union announced the beginning of the war and Grodno was on fire. So of course we didn't know what to do. In the morning, just in the morning next day on the 22nd of June we all left Grodno and moved to the east because the west had already been occupied, you see? It seemed the whole population of Grodno seemed to be just to be moving to the east as if they were escaping from the plague, it was really like it. The way to the east was very hard.

Interviewer: Did you go with your family to the east?

Liza Chapnik: Yes, with all my family, but I didn't know how many kilometers Mommy and Daddy returned because her legs were sick, they returned. And me, Grisha and Sarah went on, moving to the east. It was very hard because on the one hand, German planes, you see, they were flying just above our heads. We saw the pilots - you can't imagine even how it was low. On the other hand, the villages, the peasants came out of their houses with axes, with sticks, and they were shouting: "Jude communiste beguine". That is, "Jews and Communists, run away!" They hurt many people and killed many refugees on the way. And so we were moving about five days. On the sixth day we reached Stolpce - Stolpce, this is a city just on the border of Russia and Poland. Here in Stolpce the Germans, the German tanks surrounded us. They arrested all the men and all the young fellows and the women and the girls were told to return home. I didn't want to go away and didn't let my brother go away, but they took him and put him into a concentration camp. The camp was just in Stolpce. It was a very, very large territory where thousands, maybe ten thousands, I don't know, of Russian prisoners - soldiers and officers were put there. They were not fed for all these five days. It was very hot. The days - I don't remember in Poland and in Russia such hot days. They were not given water and they were not fed. Just I noticed a cottage, a villa, not far from the camp. I decided to go there. It was a Polish villa, I don't know, and ask for some water and bread for the prisoners. I spoke Polish and they gave me several times much food, I can tell you, and water and so to say, they gave me their blessing with Jesus Christ on their lips. They considered me to be a Pole. And each time I brought it to the camp and gave it to the, so to say, prisoners, just to the barbed, you see, wire - I don't know how it is called. At first the German gendarmes who were standing and guarding, you see, "stopeman" (?). They didn't pay attention to me. I was very little then, you see, the impression was about thirteen years, not more, you see. They didn't say a single word, but suddenly, suddenly I came back and gave it. They began shouting and beating me. They were beating me severely and the women and my sister Sarah who was just, they were standing in the square, and this was just the beginning of the war. People were not used to their sadism, to the German Nazi sadism. They were shouting: "Oh, they're murdering a little girl." They were beating me just well and I was repeating, they say: "Go away. Don't come here." And I said: "Without my brother I'll not..." Oh my G-d. You see, "I'll not go away. "Oh," they said, "in a few minutes or some time, the head of the camp will come, the German officer, and he'll give you a beating." Alright, he came - young German officer. And they said, pointed at me: "This crazy girl doens't want to leave without her brother." So I repeated, I said...he told me a story that he had also a sister. Alright. I said: "No, you can kill me. I'll not leave without my brother." So in the evening he was released, my brother. All the Grodno people, I want to say that when we moved to the east very many young people and my schoolmates and very many Grodno people joined us because Grisha was considered to be so a good leader and he went....

Interviewer: But what I don't understand. You say he was released - both of you were released to go away from the camp?

Liza Chapnik: I was not in the camp. I was a girl. Only the men and the young fellows were taken, and the women and girls were sent to go back, to return home, you see, only men. If I was in the camp I couldn't go to the cottage to take food. The camp was surrounded, alright, by the gendarmes, but this was - what is the English for...? - just it was like a fence. It was not real fence, but it was...

Interviewer: So you really helped.

Liza Chapnik: Yes, you see? And he was there and I was here. I could I bring all this....And we went back through fields and forests. First we went and we reached Baranowicze. We stayed a few days because some refugees from Warsaw, my brother's friends, lived there. Yossele - I can't remember now his name. By the way, names is my weak point. I don't remember or I can a bit mispronounce them. So we stayed there. And then we went further to Dereczyn - Dereczyn was a little village not far from Slonim, a Jewish village. And some relatives of ours, mother and brother of Berta's husband, Goldenburg, lived in Dereczyn, he came from Dereczyn.

Interviewer: Berta was your sister, right?

Liza Chapnik: My sister, Berta is my sister. And so they left me, Sarah and Grisha left me in Dereczyn with my relatives and they went back to Grodno. No other way out. I lived there for some time. The end of July.....

Interviewer: Before you go further, I just realized that you started your story from June, '41. What happened though between 1939 and '41, that period?Liza Chapnik: You want me to go back, yes?

Interviewer: Just a little bit, only for that time. What happened in that time only?Liza Chapnik: I said that till 1939 we lived in Poland and I said what we had, a little shop and so on. We were neither poor nor rich, so just middle, and we had this little shop. In 1939 in September, the Soviet army, the Red army came. What can I say? We were going on living. I went to school, to School No. 9, together with the girls I told you who live now in Israel. And we were very active. And at school the atmosphere at school was absolutely good. Don't forget that we lived in Poland. I was a little girl and I remember the pogroms, you see, of the Poles, anti-semites, you see? I saw the Jew who was running in front of house in blood and my mother came in and put him in our house and bandaged him and so on. And therefore, and you know that the Soviet army came with witch slogans. We were left-viewed people, that internationalism is above all. Later on we got to know what it is, but the first years, so the atmosphere was absolutely normal. So we went to school, people worked and that's all and we didn't know about any pogroms. So do you want any more details? No, I don't think so. I wanted to make it short only because I wanted to speak about the war years and Holocaust. And you see, unfortunately or fortunately, so on the 24th I finished secondary school and got the certificate. I see. And so this is Stolpce and we went back. I was left in Dereczyn, they went to Grodno. One day, it was the end of July - this was a month after the beginning - or just the beginning of August, I decided to go to Slonim - Dereczyn is not far from Slonim. The close, closest, maybe, friend of my brother - Yankel Goldfarb - and his wife Tzila lived in Slonim. They were refugees from Warsaw, their native town is Warsaw. They came to us in 1940 and lived with us in Grodno, but in a few months there was a law issued that refugees have no right to live in the cities, just on the border. And they went, so Yossele went to Baranowicze. And Yankele and Tzila went to Slonim. I decided to go to them, you see?

Interviewer: Why? What made you decide?

Liza Chapnik: Because they were very...we lived together and they were the closest friends of ours and I was alone, you see? I went.

Interviewer: You weren't with your brother anymore? In Dereczyn?

Liza Chapnik: Of course not. I said that I was left in Dereczyn and my brother, Grisha, and Sarah, my sister, went to Grodno and I was alone.

Interviewer: Oh right. I forgot that.

Liza Chapnik: And then I decided to go. I went, I don't know, maybe half an hour, maybe an hour I was walking, through the fields a little forest, and suddenly I heard undescribable, unbelievable, you see, crying. Children and women were crying. I was a little girl. I got frightened and hid myself in a very, very large hole in a tree. Do you get me? And I was trembling and sitting there, standing. For how much I was there I don't remember, but the crying, shouting of the people were just unbearable. But suddenly, a woman, a Byelo (?) -Russian woman, passed by and she saw maybe, my legs were seen from the hole of the tree - I was little and thin - and she came up to the tree to me and said in Byelo-Russian: (.......) "My little flower, what are you doing here?" And she took me in her arms - she was a tall woman - and "What are you doing?" I said that I'm going to Slonim. Her reaction was sudden. She said: "Don't go. All the Jews have been killed by the Nazis." And she took me in her arms and went with me to the village, but on the way to her house she told me: "Your name is Danusha. You are my niece and the daughter of my brother Peter." She brought me to her house and put me on the Russian stove. You see, in the villages there are Russian stoves where the peasants sleep and such. She put me there. Then a neighbour came in - you see, a village is a village. I should say that the Byelo-Russian woman risked with her life greatly because everywhere there were advertisments, announcements, that for hiding a Jew, you see, all the people, Poles, Russians, will be hanged or shot. So when the neighbour came in, she said: "Oh, haven't I told you? That I was looking forward to seeing my niece. We'll celebrate her fourteenth birthday, anniversary in a few days. Peter's daughter." She looked at me and she said: "Oh, but she resembles fully, completely Peter. Her mouth, her nose, her eyes are Peter's." Alright, that was the neighbour. Another neighbour came in. I stayed there for a few days and then I went to Slonim. It was not far from...and in Slonim I got to know what happened. It was the first slaughter, the first massacre since after the war. I don't know, I can't tll you exactly, but they told that about nine thousand, nineteen thousand Jews - children, women, old women - were taken out of Slonim near the village. They should have, they dug, you see, pits, large pits. They were put on the edge of the pits and they were shot. Of course, many of them were alive because the earth was moving after they were, you see, when the earth was put on them. And the rumour was spread everywhere that ten thousand Jews were buried alive. This was the first crime after the war.

After the beginning of the war, '41. This was a month after and the people didn't know about what the fascists, the Nazis are like. I found, I had the address of Yankel Goldfarb. I came and knocked at the door. He opened the door, Yankele and Tzila, with an ax in his hand. I said: "Yankele, what you did mean? What it meant?" I asked him. He said, the answer was very short. "The first German, Gestapo man who enters my room will be killed." By the way, he and Tzila and Yossele returned to Warsaw and took an active part in the uprising of Warsaw. But I want to say - he had contacts with the underground, some contacts, because he was the first who tried to convince me, he was even shouting at me: "Liza, you should stay on the Aryan side. You would revenge. You are not Liza. You are Danusha and please don't go to the ghetto" and so on. But I want to say that there was no ghetto there - it was the first month - but the Jews were not allowed to walk on the pavement. They should have walked on the road together with the horses, cars. And all the time he went to work. He worked in the hospital. He was a....x-ray specialist, roentgenologist. And he pushed me just on the pavement and I went back. I was not ready - you see, for me it was "how could I be Danusha? I'm Liza". He was shouting and I was...But in Slonim, what I saw in Slonim is something unbelievable. Very tall men - they were Lithuanians - in Gestapo uniforms, were walking along the streets with children's heads on swords. They wanted to frighten people. It was absolutely unbelievable.

Interviewer: Children's heads on the swords?

Liza Chapnik: On the swords. They were walking along the streets and it was the first month, you see, in Slonim. Alright, that was Slonim. And Yankel all the time was trying to convince me not to..."You should stay on the Aryan side. You're a Pole, you're a Pole and Danusha" because the woman named...And he told me about Wanda - I don't know her name - he had some contacts with the underground in Warsaw. That Wanda was on the Aryan side and she helped much the Warsaw ghetto. "And so you should follow her example." But I was not ready, didn't want to hear about it.

You see, I'm a very bad speaker. I can't speak. I want to tell you the truth. Half a century passed after the war, yes? And it was beyond my strength to speak about Holocaust, but now when so few people survived and remained alive now, I feel this is my duty before the dead people, before all the Jews that perished, my family. Therefore, I am speaking, but otherwise I couldn't. And before coming to Israel, in Russia, very, very seldom, only before a very little group of students I could say a few words.

Alright, so I returned to Dereczyn, to my relatives. I don't remember, it seems to me in October - I can't tell you exactly. Maybe this was the 1st of November. I returned to Grodno - this is now very easy to say - returned. You understand the conditions were such that it was very complicated. My mommy gave the furniture to a Pole. He came with a horse and coach, he took me. And I returned.

Interviewer: From Slonim. He took you from Slonim?

Liza Chapnik: No, from Slonim I came, I walked to Dereczyn - it's not far - and from Dereczyn, from my relatives Goldenburg, I went.... So I returned to Grodno. There were two ghettoes in Grodons- this is the 1st of November. Before November it was like Slonim, you see. They were walking only on the road, not on the pavement and so on. They had some, instead of David stars they had on their hand also a sign.

Interviewer: What did the sign Say? "Jude"?

Liza Chapnik: "Jude" and also the Star of David.

Interviewer: Was it yellow?

Liza Chapnik: No, it was blue. And then we had yellow stars here on the back and in front. And there were two ghettoes. One of them was the so-called "productive ghetto" because there were some workshops there. It was in the centre of Grodno, a part of Nido Street, Peretz Street, Zamcover Street, went to Ghetto One. And Ghetto Two in Skidelska region. So they chose, the Germans chose a "judenrat", council, of fifteen people. The head of Grodno "judenrat" was Braver, Dr. Braver, a director of "tarbut". The members of the "judenrat" was Gajunsky, a famous lawyer, Bilko - I don't remember. Landau and so on. You see, I told you that names are my weak point. They were the members of....When I returned home we lived in Nido Street, No. 6, and it was the house that was, so to say, was situated in the ghetto. To have an idea how overcrowded were the rooms - we had a flat of two small rooms. If you look at this room, it was half of it, you see? Two. And three families lived - my, my sister's - Anyarus - this was the wife of my brother, and individual - a few schoolmates - Solomon Jukovsky. Fourteen, you see? But though it was so overcrowded, we were so friendly and we shared every, each slice of bread. I was all the time in ghetto illegally on a illegal possession. Why? The watchman of my school, No. 9, came just at the very beginning, the first days of the beginning of the war, to my parents and said that Gestapo man came to school with a readymade list of people - all were intellectuals - teachers, engineers - and he saw in the list, he knew me - Grisha Chapnik and Liza Chapnik. Therefore, he came to tell my parents that we should be very careful. And at that time when I was, so to say, on the way to Stolpce and Dereczyn and Slonim, they shot, hanged many people of the list - my teachers, a famous historian. We loved him very much - Villechker. Oh, I didn't bring his photo. Kaminsky - mathematician. Yossel Levinderovich - a musician, a friend of our brother's and our family. Rosovsky, Silberfink. All were...just the first weeks, you see? And because he saw the names of Grisha and Liza Chapnik on the list he came to warn my parents. Therefore they decided that nobody should know that I returned to the city, to Grodno. Where did I live? I lived in a wardrobe, a very large wardrobe - one was in the room and one was in the corridor and the backside of the wardrobe was taken out and I went to the garret and to the roof. I lived mainly on the roof. You know the story "Carlson on the roof"? It's actually a children's story. So I lived there or in the wardrobe. Yes, some close friends of mine knew that I was here - Hasia Belitska, Rivka Louvish, Haikele Pays - he lives now in Sweden. They came in the evening when it was dark a bit to breathe.

Interviewer: And who fed you? The family? During the day.

Liza Chapnik: Of course, of course, of course. I was in the family. Our flat was in the attics. It was attics, therefore I was either in the wardrobe in the room or in the corridor to go and climb to the roof. Of course they fed me. What I want to say is a few words about the atmosphere in ghetto. First of all, when I came back...

Interviewer: May I just ask you? Before you say ghetto, you said there was an active ghetto and there was another...

Liza Chapnik: Productive and non-productive.

Interviewer: Could you expalin a bit more what you mean, the productive you say there were shops.

Liza Chapnik: Workshops.

Interviewer: Yes. And the other one?

Liza Chapnik: There were no workshops. Jews lived there and here Jews lived, but there were many Jews and they couldn't, even though the German law says that one square meter is enough for a Jew, you see, but it was not enough for all. Grodno was a Jewish town village - more than thirty thousand people lived there. Jews, only Jews. Of course, they divided it into two. And by the way, first they....destructed, Ghetto No. 2 was destructed. And then Ghetto No. 1.

Interviewer: Destroyed.

Liza Chapnik: Destroyed, yes.Well, we say the destruction of the ghetto, no? I see. Alright, so what I can I say? When I came back I told all the people I met at home - my relatives, neighbours, friends, people who came - everything what I witnessed Slonim. About the first massacre and slaughter in Slonim, about ten thousand people. Nobody believed me. Everybody - but this is psychologically clear - everybody thought "it would not touch my family". Hitler couldn't, you see, destroy and kill all the nation. It couldn't be genocide. Everybody, you see, hoped maybe he will be his family. It would be saved and it would not touch him. But we wrote down about all I saw and my brother made some leaflets and we distributed it. And besides, I want to say, that according to the German law, everybody, each Jew, should have given to the German administration all the radio sets, gold, silver, you see? And we didn't give anything, but we buried it, you see, dug a hole under the ground.

Interviewer: Wasn't it dangerous to produce leaflets?

Liza Chapnik: It was.

Interviewer: So how did you do it?

Liza Chapnik: I'll speak about the underground. Of course we didn't give the first unknown and, you see, stranger. Of course not. Only to the people whom we knew. And I'll speak about the underground in Grodno. Not only these things were done. But my schoolmate Louvish, he lived in Peretz street and we had an attics and they had a cellar, you see, and they hid it in the cellar, the radio set, and we listened to the latest news. Not regularly, from Moscow, sometimes from London, and we wrote it down. But we didn't have any printing machine, but we wrote it down and also distributed it.

A few words about the atmosphere in ghetto. What can I tell you? Each Gestapo man, each German, you see, SS man, considered himself to be a boss of the ghetto. When they came in, to entertain themselves they shot a child, they shot a woman in the street.

Interviewer: Just like that?

Liza Chapnik: And left it. Or they did with the women, you can't imagine. That was a kind of entertainment. The head of Ghetto One was Visa, Gestapo man Visa - he was the head of the Gestapo. The head Gestapo man of Ghetto Two was Treblof. Rinsler was the head of Kilbasina - Kilbasina was a concentration camp near Grodno. This was a camp where all the Jews were brought and after that Treblinka I'll speak about. And Visa and Treblof and Rinsler and all the others came to the ghetto everyday, five days a week and they did - they shot, they killed, they tortured and left the victims. Once Visa and Treblof came to Ghetto One and ordered all the members of judenrat, fifteen members, yes - I told you they were all intellectuals - to clean the toilets which were near by the judenrat. To clean it with their hands and then to eat it. After that, they came and ordered to clean the square near Peretz Street - it was a large square - with spoons. To clean the snow. The ground was covered with snow. It was winter, winter '42. '41-'42. They should have cleaned it with spoons within an hour. They were also not young people as you understand. Once they came, many Gestapo men, with Visa, Treblof, Rinsler at the head, and they needed some audience and they asked all the people to come to Peretz street near Tankuscz bakery, and he announced that he's going...to hang the prettiest girl of Grodno - Lena Prinsk, she was a neighbour of mine. She was the prettiest - you remember in Poland, maybe you don't know that it was a "meese", you see, the beauty of the city. Don't remember, twenty-one maybe she was. And he gathered them and announced - I should say the bakery was downstairs and there was a balcony, but not the balcony, only the - I don't know - the stakes of the balcony - and she was hanged there, but she went, you see, with her head raised highly, you see, and she was erect and when Visa took the little stool out of her feet, she spat on Visa's face and said: "You swines, your end is approaching." And she was hanged.

Interviewer: He hung her just because she was Jewish?

Liza Chapnik: What do you think? All the things what were done? Of course, only Jews. By the way, only Jews lived in the ghetto.

Interviewer: I know it, but the audience needs to hear it.

Liza Chapnik: Only that, only because she was a Jew. And it was a kind of entertainment. What I want to tell you, you see, people who didn't live in ghetto and didn't see it and didn't, you see...didn't see it with their own eyes can't understand it. Believe me, I can't understand it. It's unbelievable, even now after a half a century. A normal human being, with normal brains can't understand it. But I want to tell you the truth, that what haunted me all my life are children, children's eyes. You see, they were, you see, Jewish children - big, sad - they didn't know what childhood is like, and they became grown-ups, grown-ups. Later on, I'll tell you the story of my niece Allichka - she was nine-and-a-hald years old - what she did. You see, when you look at them, you understand the whole tragedy of our folk, Jewish folk, because everything was reflected in their eyes. I should tell you, by the way, in Yad Vashem there is, because we gave it to Bronke Dipunsky and she gave it to Yad Vashem, a diary of Solomon Jukovsky - he died two months ago. He lived in ghetto with my family and his diary was written in 1942-'43, you see? Therefore you can find very many things. As to Visa, also a Grodno man, friend of ours, Dr. Felix Zandman, he financed, he issued five volumes of all the court process of Visa, Treblof and so on. So documents.

And so about children. Very many families who were fortunate, believe me, to have poison - it was my dream, but it was very expensive - the mother gave it to the children, to their husbands and to herself, poison, not to get to the Nazis' hands, not to get to the gas wards, not to get to the death camps, but if they had. I know some families, dentists - they had some poison.

A few words I want to tell you, to finish with it before I'll speak about the underground. A few words about my family. In October, '42, Gestapo came to our flat to search for my brother and myself. My brother had already been in Bialystok ghetto and I had been in my shelter on the roof. They didn't find. They searched everything. And they took my father. My neighbour's relative told me that he went, so to say, with so much dignity, with his head raised, you see, highly. Maybe because he was a religious man - for him, it was "Kiddush HaShem". What is it? Yes, I said it correctly. And he was threatened that he would be hanged if he didn't tell where his son and daughter was.

And so this was everyday life in ghetto. I wanted to say you can imagine, but you can't imagine and nobody can and I understand that it is unbelievable, undescribable. There was such terror. I can't even find an episode for such a terror, you see?

There were underground organizations in Grodno. "Hashomer Hatzair" had its groups, "halutzim", members of "Dror" and communists. First, at the beginning they worked separately. That is, each organization, each group had its plan and its...you see? But later on, soon - yes, I should say even soon - "Shomrim", "Shomrim Hatzair" and communists united together and acted together all the time. So then, later on of course, the members of "Dror", but at the beginning only these ones. What was their work? First of all, what you asked me at the beginning. All the leaflets,you see, were distributed. I should say that Grisha Chapnik, that is, my brother, and Nira Bajanka, as far as I know, they were the first....I am a very bad speaker.

Interviewer: You're doing very well.

Liza Chapnik: And I want to tell you - they were the first to describe the gas wards, the gas chambers in Treblinka. Why? There was a Grodno man, Broyde - he was the first one, maybe the last, who escaped from Treblinka from the first transport. And he told everything - how it was constructed, built, what they did with the women, children, men, Jewish in Treblinka. How they, you see, undressed them, how they put them. And it was written a leaflet and the leaflets - by the way, I didn't know, but when I was a guest in Israel in '88. Bronke showed me some catalogue in Yad Vashem - it was written about the leaflets of Grisha Chapnik. And I got a letter from Jukovsky - he lived in Grodno - that he read in a Polish newspaper, he sent me even, that some leaflets were found and published in Polish newspapers after the war. And so this is one of the work of the underground. Next, "Shomrim" founded a laboratory of false documents. Rosovksy was the first who did it, "Shomer Hatzair". And later on, in December, '42, Hasia Belitska - she's a "Shomeret Hatzair" and Tzila Shachnes. So I mispronounced some, don't remember, girls took the laboratory and transported it to Bialystok, you see, and it was in the underground Bialystok. I'll tell you about the documents. Liasons from Vilna, from Warsaw came to Grodno, such as Zilber - what is his name? My G-d., it's on the edge of my tongue. A "Shomer Hatzair". And Mordechai Tannenbaum, a member of "Dror", came...no, they came separately and independently of each other. They came to Grodno and told the youths what happened in Vilna, what is going on in Warsaw, what is going on other...and they planned, you see, what to do and how to do. As to the laboratory, they prepared, you see, false stamps and papers - I'll tell you about it.

Interviewer: One thing. When you say they came and told what's going on, you mean they told you what was going on in the underground inthose cities?

Liza Chapnik: In the ghettos in those cities. In the underground, how they prepared for the uprising. This is, you see, what was going on in those ghettos.

Interviewer: To prepare you?

Liza Chapnik: That is, they spoke, they were planning. I haven't met, for example, Tannenbaum. Bronya met him and other people. But I want to tell you that there two opinions in Grodno among the youth. One opinion, according to one opinion, we should prepare for the uprising. the second opinion was that all the young men who can at night, to leave the ghetto and to leave for the forest, to go to the forest to join the partisans and to fight in the forests. There were two opinions. What can I tell you? This is my personal opinion. I'm absolutely sure and convinced that no uprising could have been in Grodno because eleven "aktzias" - you know what, became an international word, "aktzias", transports - were in Grodno and nine "aktzias" were just within not two months, let it be. One slaughter after another, one follows the other. can you imagine? We didn't have any weapons. A few pistols, one rifle. Of course, I agree that each uprising in Warsaw, in Bialystok, in Vilna is doomed to failure. (end of side)

So I told you that each uprising in ghetto is doomed to failure, but everybody understood that none of us and none of the participants of the uprising, none would survive, but each wanted, so to say, to do something to revenge for their parents, for all the people and for the sake of the, I don't know, nobility, yes? of the folk. And I have already told you that as to Grodno where so many tranpsorts, the so-called "aktzias", had taken place - it was impossible to just prepare the uprising. I want to tell you that about thirty thousand, twenty-nine Jews of Grodno were killed, you see, just perished. And the second opinion was to go the forest and fight. I was given a paper which was stolen in the city council, "magistrate" in Polish it was called. It was an empty piece of paper with a Hitler stamp and some words. And Shaiche Melnik and Lazar Lipsky, two communists - they were the leaders, so to say, of the underground in Grodno. In the presence of, I'm sorry....Yochevet Taub - she was a "Shomeret Hatzair" - they handed me in this little paper. It was empty, but Solomon Jukovsky who was also in the underground and he had very nice handwriting and as he said: "My handwriting is the best and I'll fill it." They filled it, he wrote down, absolutely false data about me - I am a Pole and a Catholic - and they invented, they gave me a popular Polish name, Rosovska Maria, Marisha, so they put it in and they gave it to me. then they gave me a few names, addresses, bit of a code, in Bialystok underground whom I should address when I come there. That is what they gave me. Hasia Belitska Bornshtein, she got a false document, the same, also a paper, sheet of paper, it was a document, that they prepared in their lab, you see, because the laboratory, why was it founded and gave the false documents? Only to give the members of the underground false documents to work on the Aryan side - to find contacts with Russians, Byelo-Russians, Poles and the fascists, to find to where weapons can be bought or taken or given, to help the ghetto in Bialystok and then the partisans - that was their main aim. When I got the paper, I didn't leave the same moment Grodno. In November was a very great "aktzia" and they took all my parents, my sister and all the relatives who lived together. This was very great - how many thousands I don't know. They brought them to the synagogue and then to Kilbasina - this was a camp near Grodno where forty thousand Jews, it seems to me - I got to know about it after the war in the documents issued by, published by Dr. Felix Zandman. Forty thousand, but Jews from the villages around Grodno, you see? And so they brought them to Kilbasina and from Kilbasina to Treblinka. When they took, though I was illegal and I was hidden, I couldn't stand it and I went downstairs together with my parents, but downstairs a Jewish policeman - I knew his name. He was a very good man - he took me like a cat by my back shoulders and threw me away in the darkness from my parents. There was my grand"pachede" Mangal - you know what is in Yiddish a "mangal"? Where the clothes were pressed. Do you know? In Yiddish. I don't know. It seems to me there is no synonym and word in English. This is pure Yiddish. But this is a special pressing machine, but "Mangal" everybody knew - and he threw me there under the "mangal". When they went away I climbed the stairs at night, but at home, Berta, Mama, her husband and Allichka were left. They were the so-called specialists who worked in the workshops, you see? They did some carpenters in the workshop and these, the last part, I don't know, about five hundred, I'm not sure about the number, they were after that transported in March to Bialystok and there they perished. It was Berta - Oh, Berta looked at me and said: "Liza, you should leave with the paper. Go to Bialystok." But I couldn't. I was running very high temperature - forty she said. So I was just in the wardrobe the night and day and next day I went, I left Grodno and went to Bialystok. I should tell you that I bought a ticket at the railway station and didn't show my false documents - they gave me. You see, my appearance was Polish, I spoke Polish well, it was, you see, I finished school in Polish. It was clear and they didn't suspect me. By the way, in the train I met a "Shomer Hatzair" - Zigmund. A wonderful boy from Vilnus. He went also to the ghetto. In Bialystok my task was easier because Grisha, my brother, had already been there, therefore he introduced me to the underground, he introduced me to Yosef Dreyer - he was one of the leading of the committee, a communist, of the Bialystok underground. In Bialystok I went, so to say, they gave me tasks, messages, but first of all I should have taken a passport, "personal aussweiss", because all these papers, you see, didn't mean anything. At that time, all the citizens of Bialystok got the new German passport.

Interviewer: So you needed new papers.

Liza Chapnik: So I went to the central police station, showed the false paper that it was done not badly. They took a photograph, they left the signs of my fingers there, and in, I don't remember, a month or some time I got a real German passport. But I needed to bring a paper, a document for the "arbeits bashainung". This is where I worked, you see, I should have brought such a paper. I went to look for a job. You understand, this is easy to say "I went to look for...". Everywhere were Germans and Poles and they could see what I am and what I am not because in the evening I returned each time to the ghetto. We had places where holes, toilets, because one part of the toilet, for example, was in the yard of Poles or Russians, you see, and the other side, the backside was the ghetto. We had such in Bilastochelske Street - Haika Grossman's acquaintance, friend, Olga lived there and she knew that we were Jews and she helped us.

Interviewer: So in other words, with false papers, you lived in the ghetto, but you didn't go in through the regular entrance. You went through different holes because why to get caught?

Liza Chapnik: Yes. No, no, no. We didn't. We had our places. Of course it was very dangerous and risky, but we did it. Holes and toilets and so on.

Interviewer: Now, with false papers, right, as a Polish girl - if you go through the gate, what would have happened?

Liza Chapnik: I couldn't show the Gestapo man who is standing at the gate in Yurevyetska Street my false papers. Of course not. By the way, several times I came to the ghetto officially by Yurevyetska, but you know how I did. A group of Jews returned to the ghetto. They worked somewhere at the plant, textile plant, or another one, and I put on a hat in my pocket the David star. I put on here and I begged somebody to put me on the bag the second one, and as if I am returning. A Jew just behind me said: "Oh, people say that Poles are bad people, anti-semites. Have a look. A Polish girl put on her stars and she goes to her friends. You see, there was also such a...Oh, you're risking....." But the papers I couldn't show. So I found my first job at the railway station in the kitchen. I was peeling there potatoes. My second they gave me a paper and in "arbeitsumpt" they put a stamp. Next, I and Hasia Belitska Bornstein, we worked the second job was in the SS kitchen for SS men and we cleaned there and were peeling also potatoes and other vegetables. At night we went to the ghetto. Not every day, maybe sometimes, four times a week. And each of us when we returned we had our lexicon, our vocabulary....."bopsha". "Bopsha" is "ghetto", "bopsha" is "granny", grandma. "How does your Granny feel?" So we had our words and we exchanged our opinions and what should be done. In ghetto we went to take a new message, a new task. My first task was to find "conspirative" rooms for the members, for myself and for the members of the underground.

Interviewer: What kind of rooms?

Liza Chapnik: "Conspirative". For "conspiration". That is, so the requirements were either attics, to have a garret and to put something what we should hide. Or a cellar, downstairs to have a cellar and to have a hiding place. My first "conspirative" room was in the "Gronyasgeishase" - this is the name of the street in Bialystok. This was No. 20. I was there in, I had attics. Then I found another room. Anya Root, another member of our underground, lived there. Alright. So these were our first tasks and then to find contacts with the anti-fascists among Poles, Russians, and so on. Russians, Byelo-Russians. What shoudl I tell you? Of course, there were several groups, Polish let it be. We got in contact with a few Polish groups headed by Neesmalick and Lourick - after the war they were, I don't know, members of the government and the central committee. I think Kuijava was one. The Russians we got into contact - so of course it was not in one day, in two days, in one month. Russians were headed by, one was Orlov, the second was Barboorin. He worked at the air station. He prepared a very good diversion at the electric station - Palonkin, something of that kind. I forgot. Alright, so this was our work in the underground, but officially we worked. The members of the underground worked in different places, let it be. We and Hasia Belitska Bornstein worked in the kitchen. Bronke worked at the railway station with the Germans also. She cleaned, prepared....Anya Root worked in a very famous restaurant and hotel - Ritz - you see, for higher officers. Other members worked in Gestapo, cleaners, you see? At the railway station. Our Borzinsky worked at the airport, you see? All the places we needed.

Interviewer: This was deliberately you found work in those places? Is that what you were looking for?

Liza Chapnik: We were looking for, but it was also not easy. Yes. But my first was...So I had experience in working at the kitchen at the railway station, so I became a specialist and then we were looking there, yes, for...alright, for SS, Gestapo. Some members worked at the Gestapo, also cleaners. So we managed, I want to say, these Jewish girls - I'll speak about them - managed to unite all these groups - Poles and Byelo-Russian and Russian and even, I'll speak separately about the German group who became anti-fascist - into one large anti-fascist underground organization. And they were in the committee, I'll tell you afterwards how they worked.

Interviewer: They were willing to work with Jews together? Because I know from some other stories....

Liza Chapnik: Who? The Poles?

Interviewer: The Poles, the Byelo-Russians, because there were some partisan groups that sometimes they didn't want to include the Jews in them.

Liza Chapnik: I want to tell you - those, we worked with the groups I told you they were headed by whom - these were communists....they were very good people. They risked with their life everyday. They were Poles, but they were anti-fascist. They were Russians. This Orlov - he was an officer in the Red Army and I'll show you the photograph where he hid under the ground a machine gun - we brought it to the forest. No, these people...of course, we couldn't get into contact with....Marilla Rujitska - she was a girl, a Jewish girl though her name is Rujitska, communist....and she lived in Bialystok and knew many people, you see, good people. I got into contact with Barboorin and Orlov also with the help of another Russian Soviet woman who was very much devoted. We had Burzinksy - I'll show his photograph. He was, I don't know, an ideal man, a wonderful man. I know the man who helped us so much you can't imagine, and he risked everyday and he took a Jewish girl - I have her photograph. Oh, what was her name? You see, a weak point, but I'll remember and tell you when I show the photo. And he said that it was his daughter, you see, and he saved her. Of course, we got into contact with such people in the town. We could reply on. As to the German group, and so four German men - Artur Shade, Otto Buse, Bennoshak, Buller - were members of this group. But it doesn't mean that they were anti-fascists from the very beginning. Not at all, not at all. They were Hitler members, "NSDP" members. By the way, I have the book, I think in Yad Vashem I don't know whether they have or they haven't got - Artur Shade wrote a very, an article, a booklet, you see, published after the war how an "NSDP" member became, you see, became an anti-Nazi, anti-fascist member of our oganization and then a partisan and what he did. So Buse the same - now they are righteous among the nations, you see, awarded by Yad Vashem. Now they are dead, you see, they were old people then. Alright. So I spoke about the contacts. And so we got messages from the underground organization of the ghetto, you see? For example, so we brought data, intelligence service data about Germans, what we heard, what we knew. Then, weapons. How we got weapons? In different ways. For example, Bronke with her German man she worked with, she said that her aunt killed a swine and she wanted to bring meat to the city and he will get some meat and part of it, yes? And in his suitcase she brought parts of a machine gun. We got rifles and machine guns differently. Haike Grossman got some peasants in the villages, when the army, the Soviet army retreated, they threw their weapons and the peasants, the villagers hid it under the ground, I don't know, cellars, and then some of them gave without money. Some of them just sold it, you see? And we bought it. That is it.

Interviewer: So she took a risk - what's her name? - to take a machine gun inside a case, you said?

Liza Chapnik: I want to say, Varda, you should try to understand, though it is not understood and unbelievable - each side of each Jewish girl who worked on the Aryan side, you see, each side. They walked on the verge of disaster, they walked on the blade of the...you see, on the edge of the blade. That is it. Each side. None of us believed, none of us, that he would survive, but everybody wanted to do something for the honour of the people, to revenge for our parents and friends. You see? We were absolutely sure if somebody, a crazy man, just, if somebody told us that we would, five people, five girls, survive, we would tell him that he was not only mad and crazy, but abnormal. This was absolutely dead. I want to tell you that many Jewish girls were tortured just on the same way, on the Aryan part. Rivkele Madai Skanov...(Polish names) - they were "Shomrim Hatzair". They were severely tortured, you can't even imagine how.

Interviewer: By whom?

Liza Chapnik: By the Gestapo. By the gendarmes. And they didn't betray anybody. I can't tell you now the story of each man. You see, they were tortured and they didn't betray. They knew the address of all our "conspirative" rooms and everything. Nobody.

Livkes, Fania, Shevakovich, Frisla - they...they perished in "arbeitsumbt". Like all of us, we went to take a paper and the stamp that we worked there and there. They had also such documents like our documents, false documents. And they were killed there because they were recognized. You see, in our "arbeitsumbt", therefore I'm speaking about the few survivors,but you see, hundreds and I don't know, I have not got data how many, perished and were killed and were tortured and so on. These are, I gave you a few examples.

Interviewer: I also think, just to live almost like a double life. In the morning or during the day to work in the kitchen and then do the underground, it's like....

Liza Chapnik: You can't imagine. Now, my "conspirative" - I'll tell you about the second one, Harajanska 12. She, my landlady repeated all the time: "Ja,....(Polish)". That is, "I feel Jews from far away, kilometers. They would not deceive me." And I lived how together in a room - I had a separate entrance, but a very thin wall separated us. You see, each gesture, each, I don't know, movement, word mispronounced, so that's your death. You see? I didn't remember. Now I remembered it. Haike Grossman told me she wrote about it. I was returning home well, to the "conspirative" it was "Miskelvich" it seems to me - and it was raining and it was dark and it was hard all the time. We were very, very sad of course, and I gave a sigh..."oy", you see, only, and a man caught me and said: "Come a Pole. Come to Gestapo. You are a Jew. Such a sigh, only Jewish people are sighing this way." You see? But in such moments, I should say, all the girls were very, I don't know, fierce. You see, I don't use usually bad words, you see, I don't. But here, I don't know where I took them. Such words in Polish. And I said: "You are a Pole? You are serving the Germans?" And I began so...first of all, he was not right. I am a true Pole and not he because he's speaking this way. But such words - "pshakrev". I don't know which words, where did I take them. And he left me. You see? But what is it? More "mazel" than wit, I don't know. Of course, of course. So such unbelievable things. I know that Marilla Rujitska, Hasia Belitska, Anya Root were taken to the Gestapo and Anya, her appearance was Jewish, but she painted her hair. But Hasia said and she was loving in Gestapo - she's blue-eyed. "Oh he says I am a Jew. How do you like it?" to another Gestapo man. He says: "Of course not." You see, I don't know how to explain it, but this is what it was. Nothing more can I tell you.

What I want to tell you - how we brought, let it be weapons, to the forest. I had an ideal "conspirative" room in "Harajanska", but before I failed in "Grodneska", my first "conspirative". Once when I came from work in the street, the daughter of my landlady, where I lived in the attics in "Grodneska" Street, met me and said (Polish)....I didn't tell you anything. Alright. I took in February, I went to Grodno in February.

Interviewer: From where? From Bialystok?

Liza Chapnik: From Bialystok. Onlya few streets were in the ghetto because, so to say, all were taken to Treblinka and these so-called specialists from the workshops, they lived there and among them, Berta, my sister, Maima Goldenburg, her husband, and Allichka, her daughter, only daughter, nine years old. I took her. How I took her it's a long story how I got to the ghetto and how I was not, so to say, shot at the entrance. It is a long story. I don't want now to go into these details. I took Allichka....My uncle Aaron Chernov, at night at two o'clock brought us to the fence and it was a toilet in the yard of Iskovich - everybody in Grodno knows large Iskovich shop, shoe shop - and there was a toilet. Also the wall, the back wall was taken off and we entered the toilet and it was on the Aryan part, you see. And we were waiting with Allichka till six o'clock and then I went, I told her she's Danusha Kochanovska - I gave her another name. I taught her a few prayers in Polish and I took her to Bialystok. But it was cold and I couldn't take her to the forest. I took her to my room. And she was, I went to work and my underground work, and she was in the room. And the landlady's, once I came back and the landlady's daughter met her specially in the street - she knew I come back - and said: "The neighbour from downstairs" - she lived with Gestapo man, her lover - "came and took, she said that this is a Jewish girl and they took Danusha." She said: "(Polish)" "Go to the Gestapo and take Danusha away," she told me. I said: "Alright, I am going." And of course I couldn't return to my room. I went to the girls, I went to Anya Root, to her "conspirative". - my brother was there, her husband - and said that Allichka was taken and I am going to Gestapo. They began shouting and said: "So you'll not save her and you'll not come back from..." I said: "But she's the only daughter and now I'm her mother. Berta gave her to me. Gave her." And I went. I didn't know that Hasia Belitska was following me. I went - this was the central, I don't know, office of the SS. Even now after fifty years I remember the heavy door. I pushed it, but in such cases we became very, I don't know, furious. I don't know how to express it. And I began shouting. Allichka was standing in the hall with the gendarme. He with a rifle and pistol near her. I knew all the names, all of us knew the names of the head of Gestapo in Bialystok - Venas Dapay - and I began shouting that I am going to complain of them, what right they had to take my child. And the little one, I'll tell you what they did with her. The little one said: "Oh, what did I tell you? You said that I have no Marusha. My aunt is not Marusha. I told you that she would come and give you a beating such", the little one, and they threatened her with the rifle. They took her to the ghetto, then she told us, and said: "Tell us, show us where you lived," and she said: "I don't know what 'ghetto' means." A child of nine, you see, underhand. And she was not afraid of the rifle. He was a Ukrainian in a Gestapo uniform. He said: "Wait a minute. I'll go upstairs to my chief and ask him what to do with you." He was climbing the stairs and I was taking my Allichka and ran away, but around there were ruins, you see, from bombs. Cellars, ruins. I dropped Allichka and myself went to a cellar, and Hasia who was following me - Belistska - she, so to say, came to us, followed me, yes. It was cold, I don't know. We tried to breathe at Allichka to warm her because she was trembling. And of course they were searching for us, but we went from cellar to cellar. There were ruins, you see. And when it was getting dark, again what is it? I don't know what is it. More mazel, no, they didn't find. We went to our place, to Olga in "Belastachenska" Street, to go, to enter the ghetto, to take the child into the ghetto. We came to the toilet in Olga's yard and it was closed. The wall, somebody suspected and guessed, he put nails into the wall and we couldn't do anything. Then, Hasia or myself, I don't know...there were.....you haven't lived? No, you are an Israeli. You see, in Poland, in the yard, there were woods, I don't know how to call them. Huts, I don't know. We climbed the stairs - this is about five, six meters above the ground, yes? And Hasia was the first to jump and from one side, you see, on one side it was Aryan part, the yard of the Poles or Russians, I don't know - maybe Byelo-Russians. And the other side the ghetto. Then I put Allichka, I dropped her just, and Hasia, you see, took her in her arms, and then I jumped. And so we were in the ghetto. It was the time when the last, you see, transport from Grodno, the so-called specialists, were transported and brought to Bialystok and my sister, Berta, Maima were there, so...and I gave to Berta her child and promised her to come back when I find another room and then there will not be snow, you see, I couldn't bring her to the forest. I promised her. And then they all perished in the "aktzia" in Bialystok. Nobody remained. That's the story about my niece. But can you imagine? A child of nine, you see, when they bring her, gendarmes, Gestapo men, to the ghetto and said: "Show me where you lived" and she said: "I don't know what ghetto means." "And what your real name is? You haven't got any Marisha aunt." And she said: "Oh she'll give you a beating when she comes." And I entered and she said, you see, he with the rifle... first they gave her sweets when they came to get her and when she didn't tell them what they wanted, they said: "We'll shoot you." Oh, but I jump. You see, my telling is absolutely chaotic.

Interviewer: It's not chaotic at all. But what I want to understand also from the story - since you showed your face to the Gestapo about that and then you ran away, now you had to be careful so they would not catch you because now your identity, so to speak, known. Is that true?

Liza Chapnik: I see. These was first of all minutes. I don't think that the Ukrainian, you see, gendarme memorised, but of course not. I couldn't return to "Grodniska", you see , to my "conspirative" I didn't go. And I found another one - this is the opposite end of Bialystok. But it is easy to say now that I found another one. Of course it was very hard, but my "conspirative" room, the second one in "Harashanska" Street, well, it stands. I was there, by the way, after the war. I'll tell you what it was. It was, from the point of view of "conspiration", ideal. It was, you see, before it was a shop with a cellar. I put the planks out, you see? And there was a cellar and we hid the same machine gun that Bronke brought, our rifles we were hiding there. The liasons from the forest - Natan Goldstein, Sergei Berkner, who lives now in "Veronjech" - they were coming from the forest and they were also there in the cellar. And all the intelligence service data. To finish with my room, the second one, I'll tell you. In 1976 I was invited to Bialystok and of course I came to my room where I knew each, I don't know, absolutely each piece of it. My landlady met me, you see? That one, who said that she feels Jews kilometers - it was her sister. Alright. And partisans went after the war and asked her: "You know who lived in your room?" She said: "A litle girl, Marisha." And when they said that I was a, so to say, partisan and a Jew, she didn't believe. She says: "This little..." And they said, the "kabrick" came, the commander of the partisans...alright, it doens't matter. But I was sitting in the room with my husband, with one of the commanders, Dimitri....I'll say in a minute, you see. He was a commander of one of the partisan detachments. You see? And one partisan, Veronika. We were sitting and she was just wondering, my landlady, that I know each part of the room. They repaired it because when I lived the walls were covered with veneer, you see, half of it. Veneer - this is thin wood, yes? And I put always all my papers, intelligence, into it. And one of them slipped out. And when I was sitting in the room and they around me, a young man - he was a child. It was thirty-three years after the war - came up to me and said....he hands me a paper..(Polish) "The paper belongs to you, Marisha." I look at it and G-d by G-d, a paper was, you see, lying thirty-three years between the wall, the veneer and the wall. And these were intelligence service data - I have it, you see? The "gonesan" (?) was, you see, drawn, how many machine guns, how many weapons, soldiers. How far it is from the highway to the forest. And it was, you see, it was slipped out because I took every time away, but this was....this was my "conspirative". It was in 1976.

Interviewer: But that's interesting. Here you're saying in that cellar you had this storage place for the machine gun and this. How did the fellows - you said they would come at night from the forest - take the ammunition with them? How did you move it in and out from there?

Liza Chapnik: So I'm going to tell you. Not they took it. They got information, sometimes rifles. But, you see, it was easier for us girls to pass and to go and to walk along the streets where Gestapo and SS men and gendarmes were at each five steps. Therefore, at daytime, at daytime, we took - let it be rifles, yes? - I had such a stove, an iron stove in my room. "Borjoika" it is called in Russian, in Polish and the iron stove had such iron pipes, you see? The smoke went out, you see? I took the pipe, I put in the rifle, you see, and we took it like I return home from my work. I worked, you see, I don't know where, building place or something else, you see? And I put it in. The same Hasia, the same was done by Bronka, the same was done by Haika and so on. Each of us, you see, we were very close, we were like one family, but each of us had her own method, her own system. I was a thin, pale girl and I was just like a working girl. If it was hot summer I took off my shoes, you see, Polish girls like when they went to the "kostchul", to the church, they had everything in their hands and then they put it on. I also. So nobody payed attention. A little girl. I looked, people said fifteen, maybe sixteen years old. I was eighteen, nineteen, twenty years old, you see, twenty-one. And we took it. Nobody, none of us, was running away when she saw a Gestapo man, gendarme or somebody else. My method was if I see in front of me always, I come up to him, always, and ask: "Oh, it's late? What is the time? Do you have a clock?" And he told me. So I'm returning from work. You see? It seems strange, but this is true. After what we saw, after what we lived through, none of us hoped to survive, you see, and none of us was frightened. This was the feeling that I feel it. It is strange. It was not heroism. We were normal, simple people, not heroic at all. I can say about myself before the war I was afriad of darkness. You see? I was living in the attics and always I was calling somebody to come to take me. I was not brave at all. Just on the contrary. And during the war in such conditions, it is unbelievable for me. I was walking alone in the darkness in the forest. By the way, the doctor in the forest told us and asked the commander to give, to order, that we should come at least two people, not one, because for the psychology in the darkness it was very hard. And we didn't agree because we were left after, you see, the death of all our comrades. Only a few girls and if we are caught then two people, two girls are, you see, out. Therefore we went very often - not always. I can't say that it was always. No.

Interviewer: So you're saying that it was a common thing that somebody would take this piece of the stove and carry it from work to home.

Liza Chapnik: Of course. It was cold and nobody had anything, you see, at home. You see, you can't imagine. This is a little iron "borjuika". Everybody know in Poland and in Russia. And it had a very simple pipe, you see, for the smoke. Of course everybody tried to bring something home to warm.

Interviewer: Now didn't you have to wrap it or something so it wouldn't make noise, the metal?

Liza Chapnik: Of course we...inside, of course, we put paper and something - it was not moving. But outside we didn't wrap it. Quite on the contrary. Let it be pipe from our work. Or the machine gun, few times, partially we took it in blankets. Also we live in one...I lived at my aunt's and I go home. Of course I take a blanket or something. It was wartime and nobody had anything, you see.

I wanted to say nothing and then I said anything....oh, G-d, my G-d. I'll tell you a secret. Before the war ended we girls gave an oath to each other. We promised each other that it somebody, one, survived, he would not tell anything about what we went through. Nobody can...you see, it's unbelievable. Can't believe and understand it if he himself didn't go through. We promised each other. But we were sure that none of us would survive, that's all.

Alright, so I jump, I'm chaotic, but...So this is how in daytime we took the weapons. Yes, and it was....there were even funny things, you see? We were crawling to the forest through a shooting place for Germans, you see? At night we were crawling because they were training at night, daytime. And once with this Orlov, I brought him part of his machine gun. We were crawling - this was "Jilone", not from Jilone, a shooting place. What is it called? Alright, this was a shooting place, I forgot the name. And one moment, you see, after an hour or after maybe forty minutes he says: "Marisha...(Polish)" "I'm dying. If I can't smoke a cigar." You see? These were his words. "Alright," I said, "Die, but you'll not smoke" because it was his first, you see, his first trip, the so-called trip to the..."Why?" I said: "Have a look. Here is a tank, not far. Here is a gendarme, soldier" and so on. Why I am just now smiling and laughing? In a few days when I returned home and the commander gave me some explosives - tall, they were looking like soap, you see? I should have given it to some underground members. Leninkin, yes, Leninkin. I forgot first his name. But I was going with a boy from...Polish boy, Polish, maybe he's Byelo-Russian. The son of the guard of the forest. And we had a version that we are a young pair. We go to the market to sell - above we put some bread, some meat. We are going to...eggs, to sell it and then to the church. To church because in some time our wedding will take place and so on. And we are going. Here are so say the Germans, the soldiers, and suddenly, out of the blue I began laughing. He said: "Marisha....(Polish)" "You're mad." Why I was laughing? Because when I told Orlov that here are tanks, they were not tanks, but they were.....you see, from carton made. This is for training, not alive soldiers, but... And at night they looked like alive, the men and the tank and I said: "No, you'll not smoke. Even if you die." Therefore I was smiling that even funny things like that happened because I saw that they were "mechine", artificial tanks.

Alright, this is about this. Now I want to tell you. Up to August, 1943, we were in close contact with the underground of the ghetto and we were giving them data. We were giving them, so to say, data and weapons and I don't know what they were ordering to do and the messages they gave us were fulfilled. This was up till August, 1943, before the ghetto was completely destroyed, the last "aktzia". Since August, 1943, up till April, 1944, we were in close contact with the Jewish detachment of partisans. So what was it? "Foroice" was the name of the detachment. These were....

Interviewer: One second. When you were in contact in Bialystok till August, 1943, it's all the undergrounds together.

Liza Chapnik: Together, yes. "Shomrim", members of "Dror" and communists. "Shomrim"and communists worked together and then joined "Dror", yes? Members of "Dror". This was before the "aktzia". So we were in contact with them and I told you that we worked on the Aryan side, but a few times a week, that is four or five, sometimes everyday, you see? We were at night in the ghetto and we were in contact with them. And they told us what should be done and how should be done. And so data, weapons, maps, compasses and so on. (end of side)

I have told you that up till August '43 the underground group, organization, the Jewish girls were in close contact with the underground in the ghetto. They were what, so to say, they were fulfilling the messages, the tasks given by the underground in ghetto. So first the "conspirative" rooms, to find contacts. We found contacts. We united the anti-fascists groups, Poles and so on, into one organization. Then we brought, found weapons and, either/or - or bought or got it. Then some data, intelligence service data, and so on. And I told you that at daytime we worked, you see, carried out some tasks, and at night we went to the ghetto. I can tell you that two girls, Hasia Belitska and Haike Grossman, were in ghetto when the last, when the uprising began and when the last "aktzia" began - that is quite out of the blue, the Germans, the Nazis surrounded the ghetto and came in. And Hasia should have obeyed the order of her organization, she didn't want to leave the ghetto and she should have left it and gone to the Aryan part. And she came at night, she was hiding herself till five o'clock, because at two o'clock she couldn't come. She came to my room, to me, and told me that it was the end. We, all the time we behaved ourselves. We tried in the room not to cry, not to express our feelings, but this time we couldn't. And my landlady heard how we were crying at night and she decided that my sister - in my version my sister, Berta was as if she had been in Slonim paralyzed - and she decided that she died and she went in the morning to "Shventa Gorocho Kushchoo", to the Church of Saint Troch to light a candle. She was sure. But we went with Hasia to the ghetto gate and see what we can do. So maybe somebody jumped from the transport. By the way, some people, you see, escaped, a few, and they went to the forest and we led them to the forest as well because since January, 1943, there was a Jewish partisan detachment. That is, Jews from Bialystok ghetto went to the forest Krinke a group - Krinke is a village in Poland. I'll show you. Mullanisht was one of the first partisans and she survived and live in Grodno and so on. So this was the first detachment, the so-called Jewish partisan detachment named "foroice", "forward" in English. And since August, 1943 up till April, '44, we were in close contact with the Jewish detachment. The commander of the Jewish detachment, partisan detachment was Alexander Sochachevsky. The commissar of the Jewish detachment was Rivka Poskovska. She was wounded, but she survived and only a few years ago she died in Poland, a communist.

Alright, so this was the time. Since April, '44, when the Soviet partisans and parachutists came to Bialystok forest, we were in close contact with the headquarters - I'll speak about it - of the partisan brigade named "Kastuska Yanovsky". The head of the brigade was Colonel Wichechovsky. It was a part, a unit, a part of the large unit in "Belejevska Pushje" headed by General Kapusta. So this was, so to say, how we were at the time distributed, classified. And so what can I tell you? Of course the uprising we were so...you know...that all the people - not all the people - were transported. The last seventy-one fighters who were fighting were killed. They killed many Germans as well, you see? And the action was the, the "aktzia", the last "aktzia" was absolutely unexpected. Therefore, they planned, the headquarters of the underground - Tannenbaum - the first who prepared, who was one of the leaders who prepared the uprising was Adik Borax, "Shomer Hatziar". He was killed. And before the uprising, but he was one of the leaders who prepared. The leader of the uprising and prepared as well was Mordechai Tannenbaum, a member of "Dror". His assistant who was also leading the uprising was Mashkovich Daniel, a communist. So you see, here "shomrim", "halutzim", members of "Dror", and communists acted together before the uprising began. Of course, the fierce fight was the first day, but after that, we came to the gate every day. We listened to the shots, you see, of both sides. I can't tell you - I don't know, Bronka says a month - I can't tell you exactly how much time it was lasting. I can't. Don't know. But it was lasting becuase in the cellars, you see, where people because they had bottles with explosives, Molotov bottles, were burning. There were rifles and pistols and we heard from the bunkers the shots.

Interviewer: What were you doing during this time?

Liza Chapnik: During this time we - that is, me, Hasia, Bronka - we were trying to bring those who escaped, those who were jumping from the transport to Treblinka to the forest. And the forest, the "foroice" detachment took all of them, you see? Then we found some shelters where there were hidden some Jews. Of course, that was to save the remainders, the survivors of those who escaped, those who jumped from the transport, those who escaped, who managed to escape, but of course, these were not many men. But the detachment, you see, increased in number. It goes without saying. So after the destruction of Bialystok ghetto in August, 1943 up till April, 1944, we were trying to help and to support the Jewish detachment. We were in contact with Sochachevsky, with Rivka Poskovska, with all the others. We brought what we could - medicine, some weapons, pistols. I'll give you an example. Kojetz - there were two brothers, Pavel Kojetz and Sholom. Sholom gave an address of a Pole with whom he worked before. This Pole - Risovsky seems to me. I'm not sure - was an "AKA" member, that is a member of "Armia Kriova". This was a reactionary though they were fighting against the fascists, Nazis, they were fighting against the partisans and Jews as well and Soviet partisans. But he was an honest man and he gave me and Hasia Belitska pistols and we brought it to the forest. Though he was a member of "Armia Kriova".

Interviewer: You know, I want to get an understanding for a second, since I wasn't there. When you talk about the weapons and all the ammunition that was at the time, went through your room in the ghetto, in Bialystok, and in the ghetto and in the forest, obviously, again, for the people who are going to listen to this - how was this weaponry transferred to the people in the forest and what did they do with it. I understand you prepared for the uprising later on. So we get a clearer picture of the use of it.

Liza Chapnik: Alright. I'll answer your question. And so I told you and I'll repeat, at daytime we took the rifles and brought it to a liason, a Byelo-Russian woman who lived just near the highway which led to the forest. The command hour was, I don't remember, eight o'clock. And so till eight o'clock we could bring it to her. And night, through the highway and through the shooting place where we were crawling, we brought it - we, the girls - brought it to the forest. Of course, Bronka remembers now - I forgot about it - that once we were walking to the forest and we had with us, you see, some ammunition, a German passed. He was following on a cycle, he was riding a cycle. We were sure that he was following us and we ran away, you see, there was a forest there. And she said: "You know that you fell down and I couldn't take you because I was sure that he was following us." And it occurred that he went by, he passed by and he didn't pay attention to us. That is it. And she helped me to stand up and we brought it. That is it.

So I'll speak now about myself. I had always a pistol - Walther Five. This was taken from pilots, German pilots. It was of that size, you see, not a small one, and this was...(? not clear) Why I did it I don't now. I put it here in my sleeve, I had here something, you see, push it in the sleeve. This was, it gives you courage because the main thing not to get into the hands of the Germans, you see, alive. And this was the last for you. Don't know why, but when I was crawling and the girls were crawling, I put this Walther Five - Orlov asked me why I put it in my mouth. Because the hands, my hands were, you see, they were carrying something. I put it here only to be sure that I will not get to the Germans alive, that's all. And it gives you very much courage. So what did we bring? Of course, medicine, sometimes even some food because the Jewish partisans lived in awful conditions. They were badly equipped. They had very few rifles or pistols, you see, weapons. And they couldn't do like Soviet partisans - they came to a village and took a cow, I don't know, and meat and everything - they couldn't. But the weapons they had, this was for defence and partially for fighting because all the time the Germans, with the help of Ukrainian and Byelo-Russians, who tried to come into the partisans to find out, they were making - oh, this is in Russian a "sada" - I don't know the word. They were surrounding the partisans, they were searching for partisans all the time. They were surrounding and of course, so to say, fighting. And without weapons you can do nothing. Very many partisans, wonderful boys, fellows, courageous - I think that under the sun you'll not find such courageous fellows like the Jewish ones, this Alexander Sukachevsky, you'll not find such. You see, Natan Goldstein who came as liason, many, many of them were killed in these fights. I don't know, I can't tell you the number, I can't tell you. Seems to me Bronka said there were hundreds - I can't say, I can't say, I don't know the number. Of course, more than fifty percent, more. Rivka was wounded and there were no bandages, no medicine, you see? And of course everything what we could we brought. We supported them up till April, '44. In April, '44, parachutists and the partisan brigade name after Kastuska Yanovsky, headed by Tschaikovsky, came to the Bialystok forest from "Belejevska Pushje". This was the only Soviet partisans who came, you see, to Bialystok region. That is, the most western part of the country, you see. They distributed the Jewish partisans among the detachment. The brigade had about four or five detachments. And they distributed. We were disappointed. We didn't want them to be distributed, we wanted them to be preserved as a unit, as a detachment, Jewish detachment. But they did it this way.

Interviewer: They separated them, you're saying.

Liza Chapnik: They didn't separate them.

Interviewer: When you say distributed?

Liza Chapnik: Distributed. They took some to one detachment......(Polish names), another detachment. That is, they put them among the Russian partisans. We wanted to be preserved as a unit. But I don't know. Maybe I'm not quite right, but from the point of view of now after fifty years, after so many years - again I want to repeat that maybe I am not right...maybe it is better and maybe some people don't share my opinion, but the conditions imporved greatly. Because you understand - if they suffered greatly, they were hungry, they couldn't take part in the fights, and here they were all together, you see? Therefore, as I find it, it is better, but there were some moments - I didn't know about them before. Now I was told that not always the Soviet partisans acted well. That is, they didn't take them to all the, let it be, diversions, actions and so on.

Now here I want to make it short, but I want to tell you. There was a special order from Moscow that all forces, anti-fascist, anti-Nazi forces should be united. And I got such a message, order and task - to try to get into contact with "Armia Kriova", which was a very reactionary organization, and to try to contact them with the Soviet partisans because the "Armia Kriova" fought against the Soviet and Jewish partisans as well and against the Nazis. It was a very long...how a Polish girl, so Bronka Venitska Klebonska independently from me brought some delegation from the "Armia Kriova" to the headquarters. And I myself brought also some people - Nismalick and Lorick gave me these contacts with the Poles, and the commander - he was a great diplomat - he took them. First they were fighting together. They went to the west, yes? They were fighting together. And then he disarmed them, you see? He disarmed them because he knew who they were. But at the beginning, the task was to unite all the anti-Nazis forces because otherwise the partisans should fight here against the Germans and on the other hand against the "Armia Kriova", you see? So that was...so Voijechovsky told me after the war in all the reports in the headquarters of the partisan movement in Byelo-Russia, it was reported, it was written in the reports.

Interviewer: So in other words, you could not trust the "Armia Kriova"?

Liza Chapnik: Of course. They were reactionaries. They were anti-semites, you see? But they were anti-fascist, you get me? And therefore, the task was to unite them against, and then to disarm them.

Interviewer: Could you just say the meaning of "Armia Kriova"?

Liza Chapnik: "Armia Kriova" - in English this is the National Army of Poland, but they were reactionary though they were partisans, soldiers progressive as well, you see?

Now what I want to tell you, I want to tell you that the girls, the members of the committee, when the headquarters of the brigade came, after some time, they appointed me the chairman of the anti-fascist committee, organization in Bialystok. Maybe because I was a "Comsomol" member, you see? And they were Soviet partisans.

Interviewer: When was this?

Liza Chapnik: In April, 1944, when they came. Now, the members of the committee that headed the organization were Belitska Hasia - they were, they headed, they ruled the organization - Hasia Belitska Bornstein, who lives now in "Lahavot Habashan", Haika Grossman, who lives in Hevron, Bronka Veniska Klibonska, who lives in Jerusalem, Anya Root - these are five survivors. Four of them are Grodno girls. Only Haika Grossman is from Bialystok. Anya Root lives now in Tel Aviv. Then late Marilka Rujitska, who died about eight years - I don't remember the date, in a catastrophe in Sopot in Poland - late Burzinsky, you see. They were the members of the committee that headed the anti-fascist underground organization in Bialystok. So I'll show you the documents.

What I want to say, what is, in my opinion, interesting and it happened very, very seldom, is the anti-fascist German group who included Artur Shade I said, and Otto Buse Beneshik and Bole. Once the commander of the partisan brigade, Colonel Boichechovsky, and the headquarters, Jurjenov, asked me to invite the German members of the anti-fascists to the forest and to get direct tasks, messages from the headquarters. We were sure that they would not agree because it was very risky. But I went. So at daytime we were in the city. At night we were going to the forest. So I returned, so to say, about five, six o'clock, and went to Artur Shade and told him. I can't say that he was enthusiastic, but he said that he would speak to Buse and they would decide. Fine. They agreed. They agreed and we went to the forest. I want to tell you. It was such a, so to say, unusual case - they took two horses and a coach, put there a few rifles, pistols, compasses, maps, and texiles. Shade and Bule were directors, bosses of great textile plants in Bialystok. You see, they came from Germany and the German, so to say, government gave them workers without any payment, free of charge, yes? Jews. And they worked there. But how Shade came to our organization- this is a long story, but I want to say that the Jews that worked at the plant and worked at his house - Mina Kieselstein, she lives now in Tel Aviv - they saw that he treated the Jews quite differently than all other Germans. He was very loyal and then he helped many Jews. He hid many Jews after, you see, between the two "aktzias". You see, he hid just these - family of Kieselstein, Kaplan Mary and others - and he gave, he gave - because Mina Keiselstein contacted him, with Haika Grossman who came from Bialystok, and they were friends and acquaintenances. And she brought her to Shade and he gave her papers that she worked, as if she had worked at his plant.

Interviewer: How did he come - you said it's a long story. How did he come to be working with the Jews? I mean, what made him...?

Liza Chapnik: So I see, I see. So first of all, the Jews that worked at his plant and Mina Kieselstein who was just cleaning his house - they saw that he was loyal to Jews and then, step by step, they told him what the Germans - the Germans didn't know exactly about Treblinka, about Oswiecem and so on, you see, they didn't know - and they told him the truth. They gave some leaflets and they told him. And when Haika came, you see, he agreed to give her - this is a false document because she didn't work at the plant, you see? And then they got acquainted with us, with other members of the underground. Buse - Hasia Bornstein Belitska, she worked, after the SS kitchen where she worked with me - she worked with Buse. He was a painter and he had a studio. And she was a very capable girl, she knew how to paint. And she saw the same. I can tell you that after the "aktzia" when they destroyed the ghetto, Buse - I got acquainted with him through Hasia - and he prepared all the documents - a visa, a passport for me, and tickets for me and for himself to go to the death concentration camp in Majdanek. Because the last "aktzia" the Jews were taken partially to Majdanek, to the death camp - you know what it is - and he prepared all the papers. He wanted to go with me and he proposed - I thought that my brother was taken there as well. So we didn't go. All the papers and all the documents were prepared by Buse. By the way, Hasia reminded me of when I came to Israel - do you remember what he did? And then we got to know that all the Bialystok Jews were slaughtered and killed in the gas chambers.

Interviewer: In Majdanek?

Liza Chapnik: In Majdanek. But he gave me everything - for himself he did it. And so I took Buse and Shade to the forest. So the version was that they don't know Polish - I am an interpreter - and they go to the village to buy honey, eggs, meat and so on. We went. I was sitting on all these...yes, why did he take the textile? He want to give a present for uniforms for the partisans, you see? Therefore, on the rifles, some textiles. We went. Of course, they were very nervous because I remember Shade was speaking to the horse: "Oh, don't be excited. We'll come and you'll eat very tasty food." To tell you the truth, I fell asleep. I was very tired because at night I was there in the forest and I came in the morning and then went back. I got asleep. But sudddenly our coach was stopped by gendarmes. And they asked. They gave their documents, they were true German people, you see, and NSDP members, by the way. And they said: "This was our interpreter". Here I was awakened. Alright. The documents were absolutely right, but suddenly he said: "Oh, you go to the village to buy things. And what is in the coach?" Shade was very clever, he was a clever man and he was a disciplined man. Just in a second he took out a very expensive cigar box, silver, and "Right," he said, so to say he gave him a taste (?) and the gendarme forgot about his question and he didn't search what is under me and he went and we went to the forest. When we came.....a liason who lived, you see, on the edge of the...noticed a coach with Germans and it seemed to him that Marisha is there. He ran to the headquarters, said: "Oh, this is our end. Germans are going here..." So to say, this was our...So they understood who came. He says: "It seems to me that even Marisha is there." It was for the liason something awful. How could I bring Germans? They understood, they prepared themselves. They were all clean-shaved and...shaven. And they greeted them. You see, the only thing what I can tell you - both Shade and Buse, they lost the power of speech. They couldn't believe their eyes and they told me on the way back: "How is it tanks and army planes, German planes are here nearby, a few kilometers?" The German army who won, you see, who conquered all the Europe, you see? "And here are fighters, partisans, intelligent men all shaved....no, so with weapons and so on. So they were given tasks to go to eastern Prussia, you see? Prussian, yes? To go there and to bring maps and intelligence service data because we didn't know that it was the end of the war is approaching. This was the direction they were going to. They fulfilled all the tasks.

Interviewer: Who is they?

Liza Chapnik: Shade and Buse, German. Now they became, long before, members of the anti-fascist underground organization. Shade I don't know whether he knew, he knew that we were Jews. But Buse knew because Hasia and Haika, Grossman and Hasia Belitska told him when he carried out so many tasks, messages and he helped so many Jews and he prepared even documents to go to Majdanek together with me. You see? Of course it was clear who he was. And they told him the truth and he said that he would give all his life. He lived, he came to Israel becuase he lived in western part of Germany. He lived in "Lahavot Habashan" and with Haika Grossman in Hevron. And here I have a photo how he was awarded here in Yad Vashem - it was long in the '70s or in the '60s, I don't know. Shade was just now a few months ago awarded the title of "Righteous Among Nations", but he had been awarded long ago. And he lived here. I see.

What I want to tell you, the main thing, what was written in the Soviet newspapers, army newspapers. That Bialystok was liberated with the help of the anti-fascist underground organization. Why? I don't remember when, but we brought with Hasia Belitska, brought it and gave it to the commander of the headquarters, a detailed map of Bialystok and the surroundings and all the airport - how many planes - the members of the anti-fascist organization who worked everywhere - the airport, in Gestapo, in SS, even in the National Byelo-Russian committee, by the way. Airports, garrison, how many soldiers, which weapons they had, all the bridges, buildings which were mined - that is, mines were laid. And you know that Germans, before leaving the city, they left mines and everything should have been destroyed. Bialystok was not destroyed, Bialystok was liberated by the Red Army with minimum, almost without victims, only because the partisan detachments and the underground anti-fascist organization, which worked inside the city, gave all the intelligence service data. I want to say, I don't why, maybe the girls know. So the last time, weeks, Hasia Belitska, Haika Grossman, Shade, Buse, Mina Keiselstein - they went to the forest, to the partisans, and three girls - Bronja Venitska Kublonsky, Anya Root and myself, we remained in the city, you see? By the way, in the bunker of the, I don't know, SS men where we worked - and we prepared the, so to say, meeting of the Red Army, and saved very large buildings in the main street, Parkova Street. It was not the main street of the city, but it was a very, very large avenue and many buildings, very nice buildings where the Gestapo, SS were and so on. They were supposed to mine it, to leave mines. We were drawing - Anya Root, Bronka - such papers: "Achtung Epidemia". German people, they were afraid of epidemic, you see, disease. And we were drawing the scalp, you see, the scalp and the...in german. And they didn't mine, you see? Mines were not laid in these buildings, they were saved. And we prepared, we three, we went to meet the first Red Army soldiers, officers. That was described in the army newspapers. I want to tell you that the "Generalisimus" gave always starting orders, when a city is liberated, he wrote and all the newspapers orders who, which army - Byelo-Russian, Ukrainian, the First, the Second Army - who liberated. And among the army was mentioned the Soviet, the partisan brigade - "Kastus Kalinoskia". And he, the commander of the headquarter, wrote a report to the "archivim" and a report for the headquarters of Byelo-Russia, that the preparation for liberation was done to great, so to say, mainly by the members of the underground Bialystok anti-fascist organization.

So I'm going, I don't think that I will go on. I want to show some pictures and documents.

Interviewer: Only one more question maybe also.

Liza Chapnik: Please.

Interviewer: The day of the liberation.

Liza Chapnik: Sixteenth of July, 194....I am not sure, 26th or 16th, but July 1944 was liberated. I want to tell you that we returned - I told you that among the survivors, five survivors, four were from Grodno. Hasia Belitska, Anya Root and myself, we went to Grodno with a great hope to find somebody. So we lived July, August in Grodno. But Grodno was a cemetery. Each stone, each house was known where our relatives and parents lived. We couldn't stay. Hasia Belitska who was a "Shomeret Hatzair" - I don't remember when. It seems to me in April or May, '45 - She went to Poland and she joined the "Shomer Hatzair" and she's a very heroic woman, then a girl, who saved many Jewish. They collected Jewish children who were, you see, pushed out from the, you see, from the column who went to the, transported to the camp, to Poles, to Byelo-Russians and they were three, four, five years. And they took them from churches, from "koistes klasture", from Poles, from Russians. Some people gave them, some people sold them. Some people did everything...they stole them. And they brought them to Israel, ninety-nine, Hasia Belitska, to the kibbutz. Bronja helped many. Hasia Belitska - so she's considered to be their mother, yes, and they are here in Israel. They are grown-ups, yes.

So we, me and Anya Root, we stayed a bit in Grodno, but we couldn't stay. We studied all. We entered the pedagogical institute, foreign language faculty. Hasia left for Poland, we left for Moscow where we studied at the Institute.

So I finished and Anya Root finished, graduated from the Institute. Then I was a post-graduate, I defended my thesis and worked as a teacher. And came with my family, my son, my husband, and son with his family. Two grandchildren I have - Ilya and Alex. Ten, almost ten years. They were five years when I brought them to Israel in December, '91. And so I am happy that the children would not experience what I had experienced. I hope so, therefore we are here. Of course, at our age, to come is not easy, but I wanted them to be happy and I am happy to meet my friends, Hasia Belitska and all the others and Bronka. We came together with Anya Root. That's my story. So in short, of course, you understand that each episode can be transformed into, I don't know, a book, a novel. And I didn't tell, of course, everything. You understand yourself that it's not so, but...I wanted one episode. I now remembered how we brought, how a car of the main general secretary of the Hitler party of Bialystok. His driver was Barboorin and late officer, Soviet, and he was a member of our anti-fascist. And we decided, of course, to bring him, the Hitler head of the party, but we didn't manage and he was suspected somehow and we were supposed just to leave the...he was supposed to leave. He took his car, he stole a paper. He wrote down that I'm a daughter of the head of the NSDP and we went to the forest. Oh, it was...the car and the way, it was after the...it was raining, after the rain and we couldn't go and we held. But he stole the hat of the daughter and all the time he was very nervous and excited. He asked: "Marisha Shlapper....." So as if everything was in my hat, you see? The hat was of the daughter of the secretary of the NSDP, and he believed that if I had it on we'll not be stopped because everybody... But we brought and we gave the car to the headquarters and then General Kapusto got it there. He took some weapons inside.

So the episode came just before my eyes. You see, though I acted differently, everybody...I was a simple girl, I told you, as a worker, but this time, when I was the daughter of a German boss, I was very elegant. You see, even this. Bronka was always, and Haika Grossman, they were, so to say, ladies. This was their method. Mine was different, but it was the only case, therefore I now recalled it. How I was in the hat of the daughter.

Interviewer: Do you have a special message for your children?

Liza Chapnik: Of course, of course. I have. I wish them to be, first of all healthy, to be happy in our native country, Israel, and to be devoted to the country. Not to let the country experience what we passed and survived. Therefore I brought them here only for that because at our age it is...I told you, I told you that only I feel it my duty before all the victims, Jewish, that people, six million that are not here, that I should tell the story of the ghetto and the underground, and I don't want them to experience that. This is my only wish, that's all. And to be brave and to be devoted to the country.

Interviewer: Thank you very much.