Guenter Cohn

Testimony

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The 16th of May 2017. [Foreign language].

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This is an interview with Mr. Gunther Kon.

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You were born in Berlin. Germany. in 1934.

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Before we begin. we should mention that

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today is the day you arrived to America 70 years ago.

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That is correct.

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So. most of your life were definitely in America.

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Yes.

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It wasn't your bar mitzvah?

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Actually. I had my bar mitzvah.

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I turned 13 on the ocean and had my bar mitzvah in New York.

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Let's begin with background of your family.

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What do you know about the origins of your family?

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Were they born in Germany?

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Were you the four generations?

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In about middle of the 1800s.

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there was a cantor by the name of [Foreign language] who came to

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Berlin and he ultimately sponsored his relatives.

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which included my family.

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My grandparents on both sides were born at

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the border of Berlin and Poland in an area that was one day Polish. one day German.

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You mean. the area of Posen?

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Yes.

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Oh. and maybe Dresden [inaudible] Posen?

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I believe it was Posen.

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They didn't immigrate to Germany.

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but it became Germany.

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I think when they were born.

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it was already Germany.

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and then. they moved to Berlin.

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You're talking about your paternal grandparents?

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I'm talking about maternal.

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Your paternal grandparents?

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I think they came from generally the same area.

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but I know nothing about that.

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What was your father's name?

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My father's name was Martin.

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Your mother's name?

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Rosa.

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Her maiden name was Brinnick.

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Brinnick.

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So. your parents were already born in Berlin?

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Yes.

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Both of them?

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Both of them.

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That means that at home you spoke only German.

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That's correct.

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Did your parents speak any other language when they want you not to understand something.

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or anything like that?

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Well. there was another language

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or they just wanted to warn that something was going to be said.

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they would say. [Foreign language].

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silent before the children.

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Which is Yiddish [Foreign language] . something together.

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Something together which made the ears perk up.

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so you knew you had to listen.

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How many children were you?

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Just my brother and myself.

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He's older than you?

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My brother was older than me. yes.

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When was he born?

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He was born in October of 1931.

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His name?

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His birth name was Gerhard.

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G-E-R-H-A-R-D. but he went by Gary.

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We're talking about what you used to call at that time Western [Foreign language].

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which means in oppose to.

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Eastern Europe. yes.

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To the other kind of Jews.

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You. as a child.

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do you remember the distinction between the West and the East Jews?

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No. not as a child.

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Perhaps as I got older in Shanghai.

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I became aware of a distinction.

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But the people I associated with primarily were of this similar background.

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so I did not really fully understand the distinction.

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What was your parents occupation?

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My mother was a tailor.

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and my father was in the hat-making business with his father.

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When you say she was a tailor.

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that means men's clothes?

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No. ladies clothing.

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Like. what I use to say seamstress?

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No. she was haute couture.

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A little higher than a seamstress.

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She was a girl with the golden hands.

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She had like a fashion salon at home?

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In Shanghai. she had a salon.

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and also worked out of her home.

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In Berlin?

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In Berlin. she worked for a company.

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[Foreign language]. so it was a higher class.

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Which was near the Opera Square.

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Yeah.

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So. your mother was working even after she got married and after she had children?

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As far as I know.

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Your father. you said he had a business?

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Well. his father had the business.

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and he was the. in fact.

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salesman on the road.

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What kind of business was it?

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Hats.

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Men's hats?

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Men's hats. yes.

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They were making the hats?

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Yes. they were making the hats.

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Selling them in Germany. not abroad?

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No. just Germany.

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So. he was long time on the roads.

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That means that as a child.

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you didn't see him a lot.

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Frankly. I don't remember that he was missing

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a lot because in Germany. I was still young.

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Were you a religious family?

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We were Jewish.

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But you know. in Germany you had all kinds of Jews.

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Well. we were what in Germany was called. I think liberal.

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We went to a liberal synagogue

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and Jewish in the sense that observed all of the Yom Tovim.

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Not Jews in the sense of extremely from. not wearing Payots-

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You can say that you were orthodox Jews.

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We were Jews. not titles.

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Titles are pretty meaningless.

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You remember yourself in Germany go

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to the synagogue with your father every Friday. Saturday?

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No. I do not remember that.

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But as you heard.

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you used to go with him every week?

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No. In Shanghai. I do not remember that we went to every week to do services.

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Part of our life in Shanghai.

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I went to the community Yeshiva.

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and then obviously. we went to services with our friends.

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Did you go to kindergarten in Berlin?

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I don't know.

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Do you know where did you live in Berlin?

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I know the address.

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I know the area that it was in. but that's about all.

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What kind of area was it?

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Was it a Jewish area?

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Generally. I would say yes.

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As far as I understand.

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your financial status was good in Berlin.

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As far as I knew. it was good.

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Relatively speaking. it was good.

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Did you know your grandparents?

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I have no recollection of them at all.

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Do you know after whom you are called?

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I was called after a cousin I believe.

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on my father's side.

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That means that maybe they

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were alive when you were born. your grandparents. your grandfathers?

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I don't believe so. no.

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My grandparents were alive when I was born.

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Both sides?

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Both sides. My maternal grandfather died in August of 1936.

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but the rest died in the shower.

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Did your parents come from large families?

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My maternal grandmother was the oldest of 14.

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So. your mother had many uncles and aunts.

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Yes. and cousins.

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Did your mother have a lot of brothers and sisters?

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She had two sisters.

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In Berlin?

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In Berlin.

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Your father?

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My father had one sister who left Berlin about five months before we did.

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Do you know how did your parents meet?

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Yes. My father's sister had a birthday party.

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and my mother went to that.

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and that's where she met my father.

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So. it wasn't matchmaking?

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No. it was not arranged.

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Do you know if there was any connection to Zionism when your parents were in Berlin?

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I know that my mother was a member of the Maccabiah.

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the sports organization. and was active in that.

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She went to the Land of Israel. to Palestine with-.

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No. she didn't but some of her cousins did.

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and that's how that part of the family eventually some of them came to Arutz. in 1936.

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She was in Maccabi?

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Yes.

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What kind of sport?

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I don't know. I think everything.

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And your father?

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I don't know.

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When was your father born?

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My father was born in July of 1904.

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That means that he couldn't be a soldier in the First World War.

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But was he a soldier later on?

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No.

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Did your parents. as far as you know.

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you can't remember it.

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but did your parents feel completely German?

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No.

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You know like German patriots?

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No. From what I can tell.

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and what I can recall.

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and what I have put together as an adult is.

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we felt Jewish who happened to be German.

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That means that you didn't consider yourselves as others and as they said.

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Germans of the religion of Moses?

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You were first of all Jewish.

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Then German.

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Do you remember any holiday from Berlin?

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From Berlin? No.

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Or anything from Berlin?

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Do you have any memory?

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The only memory I have is a story that I was

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told that when we were ready to leave Berlin in 1938.

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I said I would dig out my grandfather from the cemetery and take him along.

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You don't remember any place or something that you used to doing in Berlin?

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No.

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What do you know about your parents.

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what happened to them after the Nazis came to power in 33?

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Well. interesting enough. it is because of my father's travels.

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that he made up his mind that he wanted to leave.

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My mother did not want to leave.

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because my father had said that the customers said.

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"We like your product.

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But we've been ordered not to deal with you." so he said he wanted to leave.

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Where to?

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Well. we tried to go to South America.

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But you think that your father wanted to leave in the early 30s.

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that means 33. 34.

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or only later on?

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No. I think it was a little later on.

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I think it was from what I have put together.

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from information like my mother's passport and my father's passport.

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it appeared to me that it was from the early part of 1938 on.

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is when there was a definite search to go somewhere.

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Was your father arrested in Germany?

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Fortunately. no.

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Or anyone from his family or your mother's family?

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Well. ultimately. they all died in the shower.

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Yes. but I'm talking before the summer of 38 let's say.

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My mother had a cousin who was murdered in March of 1933.

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The first Jew in Berlin.

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On the street?

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Yes. He was thrown out the window of a building.

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Do you think that your parents.

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as many of the German Jews.

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thought at the beginning. "Okay.

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we'll put our head down.

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this craziness will pass very fast.

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it can't last forever. and then we'll come back to our regular life?"

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I think to a certain extent. yes.

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My grandfathers had been in World War I.

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and when Hitler came to power he gave all veterans a medal.

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including the Jewish ones.

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So they thought this was a temporary insanity. it will pass.

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It took a little long to pass.

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Did the Nuremberg Laws

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influence something in your family.

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maybe you had a maid or something like that.

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If it did. I'm not aware of it.

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Do you think that you had a maid at home?

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Not in Germany.

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Because you were an infant.

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and your mother was working.

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so I suppose someone had to take care of you.

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and your brother was still very young.

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Yes. two and a half years older.

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Somebody obviously did. but I don't know.

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Did you hear stories about Berlin later on?

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I heard stories about Berlin after the event.

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They were the nice stories. or the truth?

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They were both.

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There were the stories of my mother growing up.

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and my father growing up in Berlin.

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Then obviously. after we found out what happened in World War II.

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I heard stories about that. too.

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So. your parents as we assume thought

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that it's going to pass away.

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things will be normal again.

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and then came the Nuremberg Law and then came the Olympic games of

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36 and Berlin was quiet again because he clearly didn't want to make waves in the world.

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So. they thought it's okay.

00:18:57.480 00:19:06.970

In Germany. it was gradually getting walls and walls.

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So then 37 and 38.

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I suppose that on a certain point as you said your father had

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problems with business with a non-Jewish customers.

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That's the time that he decided.okay.

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that's time to leave Germany.

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That's correct.

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You said that they tried to get a visa to South America. What else?

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Any other country that would take us.

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America was known not to be very welcoming.

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Did you have relatives in America?

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Yes. My grandfather had a cousin who lived here.

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who sponsored my aunt.

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That's who left five months before we did.

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To America?

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Yes. She came to America.

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The stories that I heard is that everything was progressing.

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you were supposed to get your visa the day after tomorrow.

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but that they never came.

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Then some German official told my father.

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you have a passport. go.

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So. they decided that they go to Shanghai?

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Yes.

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Because Shanghai didn't ask for visa?

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That is correct.

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But you needed a visa to leave Europe?

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You needed a passport and also a permission to leave the country.

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Yes. Which we had.

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Could you liquidate all your property in Germany?

00:20:59.830 00:21:04.570

I mean. if you had any property to sell it.

00:21:04.570 00:21:11.785

to sell the content of the house. Things like that.

00:21:11.785 00:21:14.215

We were able to do some of that.

00:21:14.215 00:21:16.570

I remember that in the apartment.

00:21:16.570 00:21:21.640

the one thing I do remember of Germany of that time was that my mother was showing

00:21:21.640 00:21:27.515

somebody that kitchen area and it had a very slippery floors.

00:21:27.515 00:21:32.060

Evidently. I came around and she gave me a push and I went

00:21:32.060 00:21:37.880

against the sink with a hole in the head.

00:21:40.080 00:21:45.095

That means that the apartment there was yours?

00:21:45.095 00:21:48.780

I really don't know. Don't know the details of that.

00:21:48.780 00:21:50.600

Because at that time.

00:21:50.600 00:21:54.220

Jews had problems to take all the properties.

00:21:54.220 00:21:55.045

Yes.

00:21:55.045 00:21:56.955

Outside Germany.

00:21:56.955 00:22:00.230

But it depends.

00:22:00.230 00:22:05.290

because usually the German Jews were really

00:22:05.290 00:22:11.315

strict. and they did exactly what they had to do by the law.

00:22:11.315 00:22:15.490

But there was a point that they understood.

00:22:15.490 00:22:18.580

okay. we can't go like that anymore.

00:22:18.580 00:22:23.155

We need somehow to bypass the law.

00:22:23.155 00:22:24.370

Oh. the only thing I.

00:22:24.370 00:22:28.210

So. you don't know how are your parents were in that point?

00:22:28.210 00:22:31.450

Well. I do know that when we traveled.

00:22:31.450 00:22:33.275

we were able to travel with.

00:22:33.275 00:22:36.260

take some China and crystals with us.

00:22:36.260 00:22:39.325

I know that because we sold that in Shanghai

00:22:39.325 00:22:41.080

And money?

00:22:41.080 00:22:44.330

Money not very much. No.

00:22:46.080 00:22:53.155

You don't know if your parents could send before you left Germany.

00:22:53.155 00:22:58.510

could put some money in banks abroad or something like that?

00:22:58.510 00:22:59.840

Never. If they did.

00:22:59.840 00:23:03.890

it was never found. It didn't happen.

00:23:04.000 00:23:11.325

So. you had a permit to go out of Germany.

00:23:11.325 00:23:17.780

You went by train to Jenova in Italy.

00:23:18.990 00:23:20.315

That's correct.

00:23:20.315 00:23:22.080

That means your parents.

00:23:22.080 00:23:25.945

your brother and you. Who else?

00:23:25.945 00:23:28.090

It's correct. Yes.

00:23:28.090 00:23:29.835

Who else besides you?

00:23:29.835 00:23:30.780

Nobody.

00:23:30.780 00:23:32.000

Your grandfather?

00:23:32.000 00:23:33.030

No.

00:23:33.030 00:23:38.150

No uncles. no aunts?

00:23:38.150 00:23:39.190

Nobody.

00:23:39.190 00:23:47.310

So. you went to Jenova and then you took Japanese.

00:23:47.310 00:23:52.015

No. We went on an Italian liner [Foreign language]

00:23:52.015 00:23:58.400

Which was not as luxurious as the Japanese?

00:23:59.130 00:24:02.145

I don't know if it was a luxurious.

00:24:02.145 00:24:03.740

I had no comparison.

00:24:03.740 00:24:08.370

but I don't believe we went first class.

00:24:09.260 00:24:11.660

For you as a child.

00:24:11.660 00:24:14.365

I suppose it was a great adventure?

00:24:14.365 00:24:14.730

Yes.

00:24:14.730 00:24:16.835

You didn't really understand anything?

00:24:16.835 00:24:17.920

No.

00:24:17.920 00:24:22.535

You remember anything from that ship?

00:24:22.535 00:24:24.305

Only one thing.

00:24:24.305 00:24:28.680

On the train as we entered from Germany into Italy.

00:24:28.680 00:24:31.580

on one side you had the German officials.

00:24:31.580 00:24:33.475

on the other side the Italian.

00:24:33.475 00:24:36.575

The Italian they had feathers in their hats.

00:24:36.575 00:24:39.450

They had funny hats with feathers in it.

00:24:39.450 00:24:42.950

As one officer came by.

00:24:42.950 00:24:47.110

he took out a feather and he said. "For the bambini."

00:24:47.110 00:24:48.595

For the baby.

00:24:48.595 00:24:50.150

Yes.

00:24:51.810 00:24:53.770

The Italian officer?

00:24:53.770 00:24:55.330

Yes. the Italian.

00:24:55.330 00:24:59.635

That's the one thing I always heard about and remember.

00:24:59.635 00:25:06.220

I suppose that was in Austria.

00:25:06.220 00:25:09.235

No. that was on the border.

00:25:09.235 00:25:13.130

There's no border between Germany and Italy.

00:25:13.260 00:25:15.760

Somewhere where the train.

00:25:15.760 00:25:18.070

It had to be.

00:25:18.070 00:25:24.580

I think on Austria. on Switzerland.

00:25:24.580 00:25:26.260

I suppose it was Austria.

00:25:26.260 00:25:30.155

I don't think the train went to Switzerland.

00:25:30.155 00:25:32.860

So. I suppose it was Austria.

00:25:32.860 00:25:33.670

Could have been.

00:25:33.670 00:25:38.105

Which at that time was under Nazi regime.

00:25:38.105 00:25:38.675

Yes.

00:25:38.675 00:25:44.550

We're talking about November '38?

00:25:44.550 00:25:48.785

We left Germany November the 18th 1938.

00:25:48.785 00:25:53.330

I understand that your parents understood.

00:25:53.910 00:25:56.040

Excuse me.

00:25:56.040 00:26:01.845

Your parents understood they should leave Germany at the beginning of '38.

00:26:01.845 00:26:05.740

They had all the preparations and then

00:26:05.740 00:26:14.335

came the 9th of November '38. the Kristallnacht.

00:26:14.335 00:26:17.455

Did you hear anything about it?

00:26:17.455 00:26:23.575

Yes. Because we had by then left the apartment we had lived in.

00:26:23.575 00:26:26.740

My father did not stay with us.

00:26:26.740 00:26:28.825

he stayed with others.

00:26:28.825 00:26:32.775

So. they didn't have a chance to arrest them.

00:26:32.775 00:26:35.405

They came to look for him?

00:26:35.405 00:26:37.710

They came to look for him.

00:26:37.870 00:26:41.460

Eight days later. we were gone.

00:26:41.820 00:26:47.890

Do you remember anything of the noise. the fire.

00:26:47.890 00:26:49.120

Did you see anything?

00:26:49.120 00:26:51.060

No. Honestly no.

00:26:51.060 00:26:54.240

What did you hear about it later on?

00:26:54.240 00:26:57.400

Well. later on as time went on.

00:26:57.400 00:26:59.275

you heard all of the details.

00:26:59.275 00:27:03.445

But I'm talking about your family in the Kristallnacht.

00:27:03.445 00:27:07.030

As I understand. they came to look for your father but

00:27:07.030 00:27:10.495

did they destroy anything at home when they didn't find him?

00:27:10.495 00:27:15.460

No. Nothing. What I

00:27:15.460 00:27:20.305

was told is that we did not stay in the apartment anymore that we had lived in.

00:27:20.305 00:27:25.740

For once. my father decided not to follow the law because if you moved apartments.

00:27:25.740 00:27:28.330

you had to register with the police.

00:27:28.940 00:27:32.530

By then he said thank you. [Foreign language]

00:27:32.530 00:27:42.470

Do you know what kind of relationships your parents had with non-Jewish people in Berlin?

00:27:42.470 00:27:46.920

Yes. There was a policeman who lived in

00:27:46.920 00:27:53.200

the same building we did. and they were very friendly with them.

00:27:53.200 00:27:58.950

One time. my parents went up to their apartment and there was a big picture of Hitler.

00:27:58.950 00:28:03.560

The policeman saw the reaction.

00:28:03.560 00:28:06.680

the shock of seeing the picture. and he said.

00:28:06.680 00:28:08.800

"It means absolutely nothing.

00:28:08.800 00:28:12.620

it's just that I have to have it."

00:28:12.620 00:28:16.940

He had it. they had children the same age as my brother and I.

00:28:16.940 00:28:23.035

The story I was told that I was in a baby carriage sleeping and

00:28:23.035 00:28:30.930

the policeman's daughter was making a lot of noise and my brother hit her over the head.

00:28:30.930 00:28:36.480

The parents said. "That's what children do. No problems."

00:28:39.330 00:28:46.090

Did your parents talk about antisemitism in Berlin?

00:28:46.090 00:28:50.700

Well. they eventually were telling us what was happening in Berlin.

00:28:50.700 00:28:52.630

that the Jews couldn't do this.

00:28:52.630 00:28:55.940

couldn't do that. and couldn't do anything.

00:28:57.570 00:29:01.785

Do you know if you happened to see.

00:29:01.785 00:29:03.260

even if you don't remember.

00:29:03.260 00:29:06.610

but maybe you were with your mother. or your father.

00:29:06.610 00:29:11.590

or anyone else during the Nazi parade.

00:29:11.590 00:29:15.205

or rally. or something like that?

00:29:15.205 00:29:18.340

I have no memories of any of those things.

00:29:18.340 00:29:21.565

Your parents didn't talk about it?

00:29:21.565 00:29:25.160

Not particularly. no. not that.

00:29:25.440 00:29:33.845

So. you succeeded to

00:29:33.845 00:29:40.600

run away from Germany immediately after the Kristallnacht?

00:29:40.600 00:29:41.530

Um-um.

00:29:41.530 00:29:47.110

By the way. I suppose that your parents had German citizenship-

00:29:47.110 00:29:47.440

Yes.

00:29:47.440 00:29:49.045

-before it was taken away.

00:29:49.045 00:29:49.660

Yes. Yes.

00:29:49.660 00:29:53.785

They weren't considered Polish citizens.

00:29:53.785 00:29:57.100

No. We had German citizenship.

00:29:57.100 00:29:59.545

My aunt who left.

00:29:59.545 00:30:02.080

she was married to a man who was born in Berlin.

00:30:02.080 00:30:04.525

but had Polish citizenship.

00:30:04.525 00:30:06.920

So. he was kicked out.

00:30:08.190 00:30:11.395

He was deported to Bonchon?

00:30:11.395 00:30:16.210

No. actually they ended up going to New York.

00:30:16.210 00:30:19.675

You said that they went five-

00:30:19.675 00:30:20.770

Months earlier. Yes.

00:30:20.770 00:30:25.435

-months before you. So. it was before the Bonchon deportation?

00:30:25.435 00:30:26.800

Um-um.

00:30:26.800 00:30:38.215

So. going by train

00:30:38.215 00:30:44.000

to Jenova with no problems on the border.

00:30:47.650 00:30:52.455

As we assume. it was a nice adventure for you.

00:30:52.455 00:30:57.170

this journey to Shanghai.

00:30:57.170 00:30:59.030

How long did it take?

00:30:59.030 00:31:01.215

I believe. five weeks.

00:31:01.215 00:31:07.460

Which number of conditions?

00:31:07.460 00:31:09.590

We got there.

00:31:09.590 00:31:16.815

But. you don't think that your parents had a trauma or something from the journey?

00:31:16.815 00:31:18.270

No.

00:31:18.270 00:31:22.180

Because I don't think they knew what they were getting into.

00:31:22.180 00:31:29.480

I think. basically the Europeans did not know anything about Shanghai. About China.

00:31:29.480 00:31:36.145

But. I mean the sailing itself was okay.

00:31:36.145 00:31:38.310

The sailing itself was okay.

00:31:38.310 00:31:41.500

We went through the Suez Canal.

00:31:43.030 00:31:46.465

and we were stopped in Bombay.

00:31:46.465 00:31:51.305

and other places. Manila.

00:31:51.305 00:31:58.765

I suppose that because your parents went immediately after the Kristallnacht.

00:31:58.765 00:32:04.925

they already really understood what's going on in Germany.

00:32:04.925 00:32:11.430

and they felt lucky to be able to escape from Germany.

00:32:11.430 00:32:17.190

So. even if Shanghai wasn't what they were expecting.

00:32:17.190 00:32:20.460

still it wasn't Berlin.

00:32:20.460 00:32:23.870

It wasn't Germany anymore.

00:32:23.870 00:32:28.330

So. you arrive to Shanghai.

00:32:28.330 00:32:34.970

which was under a Japanese regime.

00:32:36.090 00:32:39.230

That's a yes and no.

00:32:40.050 00:32:44.890

The Japanese word. "De facto" But.

00:32:44.890 00:32:48.455

not the jury because the Europeans were still the jury.

00:32:48.455 00:32:57.630

Yes. but officially. it was between the

00:32:57.630 00:33:06.900

Japanese and the other countries that had status like Great Britain. America-

00:33:06.900 00:33:08.010

America and France.

00:33:08.010 00:33:17.365

-and so on. We are talking about you.

00:33:17.365 00:33:20.080

your family as refugees.

00:33:20.080 00:33:23.490

usually went to Hongkew.

00:33:23.490 00:33:23.690

Yes. yes.

00:33:23.690 00:33:28.180

I think it was the name of the quarter of the city which

00:33:28.180 00:33:33.419

wasn't the best of the city areas.

00:33:33.419 00:33:38.820

but all the Jewish refugees were there.

00:33:38.820 00:33:40.790

Yes. Started out there.

00:33:40.790 00:33:45.225

Do you remember the arriving to Shanghai?

00:33:45.225 00:33:47.045

Not the arrival.

00:33:47.045 00:33:49.680

No. I have no recollections of that.

00:33:49.680 00:33:52.155

specifics recollections of that.

00:33:52.155 00:33:58.445

Because I suppose it was nothing like anything you knew before.

00:33:58.445 00:34:03.465

No. The way my parents explained it is that.

00:34:03.465 00:34:10.440

they saw the buildings on the Bund which were the modern European buildings.

00:34:10.440 00:34:16.025

They saw just Chinese milling around. and the poverty.

00:34:16.025 00:34:17.480

and then Hongkew was

00:34:17.480 00:34:22.245

the beautiful area where the Chinese and the Japanese fought the hardest.

00:34:22.245 00:34:26.865

and was the worst condition of Shanghai.

00:34:26.865 00:34:29.990

But. fortunately we didn't stay there very long.

00:34:29.990 00:34:32.530

But you began there?

00:34:32.530 00:34:33.950

We began there. Yes.

00:34:33.950 00:34:37.190

And you had the help of the Jewish community?

00:34:37.190 00:34:37.890

Yes.

00:34:37.890 00:34:38.375

At the beginning?

00:34:38.375 00:34:45.040

Yes. Yeah. They had organized the- we were one of the early ships that came and they had

00:34:45.040 00:34:53.330

organized help for that to find some room and board in Hongkew.

00:34:53.820 00:34:56.000

As I say fortunately.

00:34:56.000 00:34:57.940

we did not stay there long.

00:34:57.940 00:35:02.995

Do you remember anything about the early time in Hongkew?

00:35:02.995 00:35:06.250

The nuts. but not that. No.

00:35:06.250 00:35:11.700

What you know is that you were there for a short time and then what happened?

00:35:11.700 00:35:15.890

We moved to what was known as the French Concession.

00:35:15.890 00:35:24.300

My mother found work and we were able to find an apartment and we moved.

00:35:25.630 00:35:33.665

Then. life was reasonably good for a number of years.

00:35:33.665 00:35:39.505

But yet. we're talking about a cultural shock.

00:35:39.505 00:35:42.520

A cultural shock. Yes.

00:35:44.160 00:35:51.070

First. instantly you become refugees?

00:35:51.070 00:35:53.160

You were not refugees before.

00:35:53.160 00:36:02.605

You become refugees in a completely different culture place.

00:36:02.605 00:36:05.270

Everything was different.

00:36:05.270 00:36:09.850

But. I understand that you were in the European.

00:36:09.850 00:36:12.430

one of the European colonies.

00:36:12.430 00:36:14.050

the French colony there-

00:36:14.050 00:36:14.530

Yes.

00:36:14.530 00:36:16.500

-which was. I suppose.

00:36:16.500 00:36:21.020

a little bit better than the other places?

00:36:21.020 00:36:28.250

More than a little. French Concession was considered the best concession there.

00:36:30.730 00:36:34.595

Did you go to kindergarten there?

00:36:34.595 00:36:36.930

I went to kindergarten there.

00:36:36.930 00:36:39.110

Which one? Not Chinese of course.

00:36:39.110 00:36:43.600

No. not Chinese. associated with Shanghai Jewish school.

00:36:43.600 00:36:48.480

Which was a Sephardi school that was built by Sephardis. Sephardi Jews.

00:36:48.480 00:36:49.740

What language was there?

00:36:49.740 00:36:52.750

The language was English.

00:36:54.560 00:36:58.450

That means that you were.

00:36:58.450 00:37:01.325

how can I say it.

00:37:01.325 00:37:03.490

part of the high society?

00:37:03.490 00:37:09.700

The Jewish High Society in Shanghai because the Sephardi community was

00:37:09.700 00:37:15.770

the smallest community but it was really the high society.

00:37:15.770 00:37:17.905

We were not of that class.

00:37:17.905 00:37:22.025

Especially the community from Baghdad.

00:37:22.025 00:37:23.750

Yes the Baghdads.

00:37:23.750 00:37:25.895

We weren't of that class.

00:37:25.895 00:37:26.750

But you went-.

00:37:26.750 00:37:27.390

Was that was-.

00:37:27.390 00:37:29.275

But you went to school with them?

00:37:29.275 00:37:32.990

No. they didn't send their children to that school. They built a school.

00:37:32.990 00:37:35.510

I thought it was their school. Okay.

00:37:35.510 00:37:39.640

No. Actually. it was the Russian Jews who sent

00:37:39.640 00:37:44.910

their children to that school and then the Europeans too.

00:37:45.010 00:37:51.125

But the Baghdadi Jews. the Cadres-.

00:37:51.125 00:37:51.920

Sysoon.

00:37:51.920 00:37:53.970

Hyduns. sysoon.

00:37:53.970 00:37:56.180

We weren't of that class.

00:37:56.180 00:37:58.595

They had a private school?

00:37:58.595 00:38:00.510

They had everything.

00:38:00.510 00:38:06.710

So. you went to that kindergarden.

00:38:06.710 00:38:08.615

you had to learn English?

00:38:08.615 00:38:09.360

Yes.

00:38:09.360 00:38:11.450

I suppose it was at that age it's not a problem?

00:38:11.450 00:38:12.590

Not a problem.

00:38:12.590 00:38:16.205

Your mother also going to the school?

00:38:16.205 00:38:17.990

Yes. she also went to that.

00:38:17.990 00:38:22.850

Your mother is working as a tailor and your father?

00:38:22.850 00:38:28.220

Is unfortunately getting all of the diseases one gets in Shanghai.

00:38:28.220 00:38:31.740

He was sick a lot of the time.

00:38:32.050 00:38:35.970

Contagious diseases?

00:38:35.970 00:38:44.365

Some of them were and some weren't but he was unfortunately.

00:38:44.365 00:38:46.640

most of the time in Shanghai.

00:38:46.640 00:38:50.495

he tried to do various things some successively and some not.

00:38:50.495 00:38:55.255

But it was primarily my mother who supported the family.

00:38:55.255 00:39:00.935

He was most of the time in a hospital or at home?

00:39:00.935 00:39:02.660

No. he was in the hospital.

00:39:02.660 00:39:07.740

he was at home and it was both.

00:39:08.460 00:39:12.700

Diseases like typhoid et cetera?

00:39:12.700 00:39:19.145

Yes. typhoid and those are the nice diseases one gets in the area.

00:39:19.145 00:39:26.245

So. your parents tried to keep you away from your father?

00:39:26.245 00:39:32.350

No. not necessarily but we were

00:39:32.350 00:39:39.090

careful and then life continued.

00:39:39.090 00:39:45.570

But when he was not sick what did he try to do?

00:39:53.350 00:39:58.070

He tried selling hats.

00:39:58.070 00:40:02.500

but that didn't turn out to be very well.

00:40:02.500 00:40:08.740

He tried tailoring but he wasn't a very good tailor.

00:40:08.740 00:40:13.250

He went in business with somebody else and that

00:40:13.250 00:40:18.730

didn't work out because one day he came to where the business was and it was empty.

00:40:18.730 00:40:21.690

The partner was Jewish?

00:40:21.690 00:40:26.310

The partner was Jewish but he was also a [Foreign language].

00:40:28.420 00:40:32.520

So. the main provider was your mother?

00:40:32.520 00:40:33.960

The main provider was my mother.

00:40:33.960 00:40:38.040

You said that she had her own saloon?

00:40:38.040 00:40:42.920

Not at first. She started out with some of

00:40:42.920 00:40:49.900

the better places in Shanghai that had the customers including the Baghdadis.

00:40:49.900 00:40:51.695

that type of customer.

00:40:51.695 00:40:54.860

There was a lot of money in Shanghai.

00:40:55.240 00:41:03.555

Because there were like 100.000 or something like that of foreigners?

00:41:03.555 00:41:04.655

Yes. something like that.

00:41:04.655 00:41:08.885

Which means that they had enough money to spend on quality-.

00:41:08.885 00:41:10.580

Well. you had Indians-.

00:41:10.580 00:41:12.080

Clothes?

00:41:12.080 00:41:22.890

That's correct. you had Indian princesses and a lot of people with money to spend.

00:41:23.800 00:41:29.350

So. she worked there and then she became independent?

00:41:29.350 00:41:32.435

She worked there and then she became independent.

00:41:32.435 00:41:35.445

It was still okay when she was independent?

00:41:35.445 00:41:41.965

Yes. she got a reputation of being known and doing quality work.

00:41:41.965 00:41:44.810

You said women clothes. right?

00:41:44.810 00:41:46.015

Yes. women clothing.

00:41:46.015 00:41:51.960

But you were still very young you and your mother so.

00:41:51.960 00:41:55.185

who took care of you when your mother was working?

00:41:55.185 00:41:56.920

We had an Ama.

00:41:56.920 00:42:04.390

the Chinese woman who was around. and then also we were left alone.

00:42:04.430 00:42:09.090

Because I suppose if your mother was the main provider.

00:42:09.090 00:42:11.340

she had to work for longer hours?

00:42:11.340 00:42:18.990

She did work for long hours and had to travel to see some of the customers.

00:42:18.990 00:42:21.190

they didn't all come to her.

00:42:22.220 00:42:25.505

But you're alone now you became responsible.

00:42:25.505 00:42:29.315

She had help?

00:42:29.315 00:42:29.750

Yes.

00:42:29.750 00:42:29.900

At work?

00:42:29.900 00:42:36.990

She had Chinese people

00:42:36.990 00:42:41.405

working for her. tailors and-.

00:42:41.405 00:42:42.640

Women?

00:42:42.640 00:42:49.730

Men. There was one where two thumbs. six finger.

00:42:50.200 00:42:57.135

Did you and your mother or your parents did you learn any Chinese at that time?

00:42:57.135 00:43:00.150

Yes. we did.

00:43:00.150 00:43:02.360

I can still swear to you.

00:43:02.360 00:43:06.605

I wouldn't but at that time.

00:43:06.605 00:43:13.860

you had to pick up Chinese from the streets so you learnt some of that.

00:43:14.350 00:43:18.810

How did they treat you. the Chinese?

00:43:19.480 00:43:29.525

Well. until 1942. we were [Foreign language]. which meant foreigner.

00:43:29.525 00:43:31.760

You were part of that or foreigners?

00:43:31.760 00:43:32.435

We were foreigners.

00:43:32.435 00:43:33.650

They didn't make-.

00:43:33.650 00:43:35.480

They didn't know. they didn't know that-.

00:43:35.480 00:43:36.530

A distinction between Jews and non-Jews?

00:43:36.530 00:43:39.245

They didn't know there was a big foreigner.

00:43:39.245 00:43:40.470

you were just a foreigner.

00:43:40.470 00:43:44.940

So in that respect.

00:43:44.940 00:43:47.795

there was no discrimination.

00:43:47.795 00:43:52.760

The other as we called them the foreigners.

00:43:52.760 00:43:54.290

how did they treat you?

00:43:54.290 00:43:59.245

We didn't associate too much with other foreigners.

00:43:59.245 00:44:02.800

the ones we associated with were our schoolmates.

00:44:02.800 00:44:04.600

we went to the same school.

00:44:04.600 00:44:06.310

That was a Jewish school?

00:44:06.310 00:44:07.120

A Jewish school.

00:44:07.120 00:44:10.090

But you said you lived in

00:44:10.090 00:44:16.220

the French area I suppose there were mostly French people there?

00:44:16.220 00:44:17.045

No.

00:44:17.045 00:44:18.710

Not necessarily Jews.

00:44:18.710 00:44:21.540

No they were in the area.

00:44:21.540 00:44:23.650

you had a good mixture.

00:44:25.120 00:44:28.905

So it wasn't an exclusive French area.

00:44:28.905 00:44:32.050

If there was. one we did not live there.

00:44:33.370 00:44:38.870

But were there many Jews there in that area?

00:44:39.860 00:44:45.560

There were some that we were friendly with and that's all you concerned yourself with.

00:44:45.560 00:44:48.480

The others. a small circle of friends.

00:44:48.480 00:44:55.295

At that time. did you have any contact to the family in Germany?

00:44:55.295 00:45:03.290

We were able to get some mail and some of the mail was censored.

00:45:03.460 00:45:07.975

Very big dark black line through it.

00:45:07.975 00:45:11.610

Especially when they were indicating where they were heading

00:45:11.610 00:45:17.450

for and then there was a great period of silence.

00:45:17.450 00:45:21.050

Did they try to give any hints?

00:45:21.050 00:45:21.680

They did.

00:45:21.680 00:45:25.310

That the censor won't understand?

00:45:25.310 00:45:28.910

No. The censor just blocked out.

00:45:28.910 00:45:32.130

if it didn't understand it. it just blocked it out.

00:45:33.340 00:45:39.095

I know that people used to write something like.

00:45:39.095 00:45:44.105

"I think I'm going to meet for instance.

00:45:44.105 00:45:46.895

my mother next week."

00:45:46.895 00:45:55.200

Since you know that his mother is already dead so you could understand what he means.

00:45:55.200 00:45:59.725

From the letters that I have seen and that I have read.

00:45:59.725 00:46:02.500

I saw nothing like that at all.

00:46:02.800 00:46:10.850

At that time in Germany were your grandparents?

00:46:10.850 00:46:14.025

Yes. my blood no. my-.

00:46:14.025 00:46:16.620

One grandfather you said died in 36?

00:46:16.620 00:46:17.335

That's right.

00:46:17.335 00:46:20.380

So. you had a grandfather and two grandmothers?

00:46:20.380 00:46:20.965

Yes. that's correct.

00:46:20.965 00:46:22.090

Your-.

00:46:22.090 00:46:22.990

My aunts.

00:46:22.990 00:46:26.050

Father's sister was-.

00:46:26.050 00:46:27.270

In New York.

00:46:27.270 00:46:31.520

Already in America and your mother's brothers?

00:46:31.520 00:46:32.690

No. my mother's sisters-.

00:46:32.690 00:46:33.400

Sisters?

00:46:33.400 00:46:39.210

Were in Germany. as were cousins and other relatives.

00:46:40.540 00:46:46.935

Did you try to send them something from Shanghai?

00:46:46.935 00:46:55.230

Only mail that I'm aware of. little packages.

00:46:58.010 00:47:01.050

You couldn't send them money?

00:47:01.050 00:47:03.390

No. I couldn't send money.

00:47:04.360 00:47:11.870

Did you have enough money for yourselves?

00:47:11.870 00:47:14.180

Fortunately yes.

00:47:14.180 00:47:20.565

We were not part of half of the community

00:47:20.565 00:47:27.770

of refugees who came that were dependent on the generosity of others.

00:47:31.310 00:47:40.160

Yet I suppose that you didn't see your mother very much at the time? She was busy.

00:47:40.160 00:47:43.435

Did not. but that was the normal in our house.

00:47:43.435 00:47:45.710

She didn't work at home.

00:47:45.710 00:47:47.440

She had a special place.

00:47:47.440 00:47:48.715

She had a place to work.

00:47:48.715 00:47:50.055

She didn't work at home. but.

00:47:50.055 00:47:52.995

Was it walking distance?

00:47:52.995 00:47:56.530

If it was. I don't remember.

00:47:56.690 00:48:02.370

Do you remember any Jewish holidays in Shanghai?

00:48:02.370 00:48:05.605

Yes. all of them they were celebrated.

00:48:05.605 00:48:10.805

Did you have for instance. matzahs for Passover?

00:48:10.805 00:48:16.770

Yes. we did. We had matzahs.

00:48:16.840 00:48:21.110

After the Mirror came. they baked matzahs.

00:48:21.110 00:48:28.020

but you've got to divide the period before the war and then after.

00:48:28.020 00:48:30.915

Yeah. we are talking till 42. Yes. till February '42.

00:48:30.915 00:48:36.490

Yeah. until early 42. we were matzahs.

00:48:39.230 00:48:41.985

We knew we were Jewish.

00:48:41.985 00:48:44.475

We knew when there was the Antif.

00:48:44.475 00:48:47.750

You went to a synagogue?

00:48:47.750 00:48:54.770

Actually. interesting enough is I don't remember specifically while we

00:48:54.770 00:49:01.625

were before 1943 that we went to a synagogue.

00:49:01.625 00:49:04.010

But from stories I've heard.

00:49:04.010 00:49:06.040

I know we must have.

00:49:06.980 00:49:10.230

You felt comfortable there?

00:49:10.230 00:49:13.800

You could walk on the street by yourself and?

00:49:13.800 00:49:16.935

I had absolutely no basis of comparison.

00:49:16.935 00:49:18.920

But you felt confident?

00:49:18.920 00:49:22.680

Yes. As a child.

00:49:22.680 00:49:27.560

then as you're growing you feel confident and you don't worry about things.

00:49:27.560 00:49:31.400

You could go by yourself on the street?

00:49:31.400 00:49:34.035

Yes. you could.

00:49:34.035 00:49:37.730

It was perfectly safe unless you ran into

00:49:37.730 00:49:40.200

other young Chinese then they

00:49:40.200 00:49:43.750

would call their friends and then you have children or children.

00:49:47.400 00:49:50.005

As you described it.

00:49:50.005 00:49:53.270

it sounds like a nice time.

00:49:53.270 00:49:56.610

Yes. For us. it was a normal time.

00:49:56.610 00:50:04.470

Nothing was lacking. we can say you had enough food.

00:50:04.470 00:50:11.440

enough clothes. toys. I suppose you had.

00:50:11.930 00:50:14.290

Pardon me.

00:50:15.110 00:50:19.560

You had toys. you had to maybe games.

00:50:19.560 00:50:26.415

you had everything that a child your age used to have at that time?

00:50:26.415 00:50:28.875

Yes. I believe we did.

00:50:28.875 00:50:30.990

You didn't lack anything?

00:50:30.990 00:50:32.790

No. we didn't lack anything.

00:50:32.790 00:50:36.240

Only thing is I know I was very young and

00:50:36.240 00:50:41.120

my mother had taught me to sew and I had to help her occasionally.

00:50:41.120 00:50:42.950

Your brother too?

00:50:42.950 00:50:43.715

No.

00:50:43.715 00:50:44.110

How come?

00:50:44.110 00:50:50.430

My brother was smart because he decided be [inaudible] so she wouldn't use them.

00:50:50.430 00:50:53.890

I wasn't smart enough to do that.

00:50:54.620 00:51:02.430

For instance. you went to a kindergarten and you said that your brother went to school.

00:51:02.430 00:51:04.155

it was in the same complex.

00:51:04.155 00:51:04.590

Yes.

00:51:04.590 00:51:06.870

So. you went together every morning.

00:51:06.870 00:51:08.890

We would go together.

00:51:09.380 00:51:12.855

You had a sandwich.

00:51:12.855 00:51:16.870

you were not hungry. nothing like that.

00:51:17.460 00:51:21.260

Yes. You had something to eat.

00:51:21.260 00:51:26.145

Whether as a child you continue to be hungry all the time.

00:51:26.145 00:51:29.395

it's hard to say. but.

00:51:29.395 00:51:32.820

How did you feel about the Chinese food?

00:51:32.820 00:51:34.595

We didn't eat Chinese food.

00:51:34.595 00:51:35.960

Nothing?

00:51:35.960 00:51:40.030

Never ate chopsticks in China.

00:51:41.480 00:51:43.620

How come?

00:51:43.620 00:51:47.700

We were Europeans. we ate what we knew.

00:51:47.700 00:51:51.020

But you know when you walk on the streets.

00:51:51.020 00:51:53.725

On the streets. we did buy things.

00:51:53.725 00:51:56.760

We weren't supposed to. but we did.

00:51:59.460 00:52:03.730

We were told. "Don't drink the water."

00:52:03.730 00:52:06.910

Eventually as children. we drank the water.

00:52:07.290 00:52:10.820

All these things. but that's what children do.

00:52:10.820 00:52:15.840

You had a nice apartment in the French area?

00:52:15.840 00:52:23.170

As I remember it. it was adequate.

00:52:23.780 00:52:27.520

It had up two or three rooms.

00:52:28.520 00:52:32.440

So. it was nice in that respect.

00:52:33.210 00:52:36.865

Do you remember any of the neighbors?

00:52:36.865 00:52:42.645

No. None within the immediate area.

00:52:42.645 00:52:45.105

Close by I had a friend.

00:52:45.105 00:52:53.410

but not within the complex where we lived.

00:52:57.460 00:53:04.410

So. life is we can say good and I suppose you consider

00:53:04.410 00:53:11.194

yourselves lucky at the time that you were not in Germany because.

00:53:11.194 00:53:16.440

of course. the war broke out in September '39 when you

00:53:16.440 00:53:21.630

were already in Shanghai and the borders were closed.

00:53:21.630 00:53:25.445

So I suppose you felt lucky.

00:53:25.445 00:53:32.130

and then comes December '41.

00:53:32.130 00:53:35.825

Is there any memories before '41.

00:53:35.825 00:53:39.440

something that we didn't mention about your life in Shanghai?

00:53:39.440 00:53:43.310

Well in December of 1939.

00:53:43.310 00:53:52.070

I had an operation on my leg because I had a needle in my knee because I was sewing.

00:53:52.070 00:53:52.710

From the sewing?

00:53:52.710 00:53:55.795

I was sewing. I had to go the bathroom.

00:53:55.795 00:53:58.490

put the needle on the sofa.

00:53:58.490 00:54:02.245

came back and knelt on the sofa.

00:54:02.245 00:54:06.015

For 10 days nobody believed me.

00:54:06.015 00:54:09.390

Who ever heard of a needle in your knee?

00:54:09.390 00:54:12.465

We went to the doctor. they examined.

00:54:12.465 00:54:14.260

took blood tests and said.

00:54:14.260 00:54:18.190

"We're going to operate now. not tomorrow."

00:54:18.190 00:54:21.795

So. I went to the general hospital.

00:54:21.795 00:54:24.590

He was a doctor from Germany?

00:54:24.590 00:54:26.205

A doctor from Germany.

00:54:26.205 00:54:30.830

Dr. Hans Flatow. a surgeon.

00:54:32.070 00:54:40.150

Went to the general hospital which was run by American nuns.

00:54:41.150 00:54:44.565

I was operated on my leg.

00:54:44.565 00:54:49.570

He didn't guarantee that I wouldn't limp.

00:54:52.550 00:54:57.630

He kept a book of all the surgeries and then on my page was a needle.

00:54:57.630 00:55:01.415

We knew him and I got to see that.

00:55:01.415 00:55:07.510

But fortunately. he did a good job and I had no after-effects.

00:55:09.840 00:55:14.320

But interesting enough while I was at that hospital.

00:55:14.320 00:55:16.810

there was a cross over each bed.

00:55:16.810 00:55:23.820

and I said that I would not sleep under a false god.

00:55:23.820 00:55:26.250

At the age of five?

00:55:26.250 00:55:28.230

At the age of five.

00:55:28.230 00:55:30.305

I made a fuss about it.

00:55:30.305 00:55:32.300

Impressing.

00:55:34.060 00:55:40.480

Mother superior said. "Take the cross down."

00:55:44.080 00:55:45.780

So. you. we were-

00:55:45.780 00:55:46.960

It's really impressive-

00:55:46.960 00:55:47.080

Well.

00:55:47.080 00:55:48.240

That at the age of five.

00:55:48.240 00:55:49.790

you already knew the-

00:55:49.790 00:55:50.800

That we were Jewish.

00:55:50.800 00:55:53.360

-difference and you insisted on-

00:55:53.550 00:55:57.320

When you look back on it. it was chutzpah.

00:55:58.170 00:56:01.420

But. as a child you couldn't understand it?

00:56:01.420 00:56:07.060

No. No. but. if you don't have chutzpah and you're Jewish. something is wrong.

00:56:07.060 00:56:09.895

Could you keep kosher in Shanghai?

00:56:09.895 00:56:11.915

We did. We did.

00:56:11.915 00:56:17.020

That meant that meat was something you had on Yontef.

00:56:17.480 00:56:22.075

Chicken. you had. you used to buy a little chick.

00:56:22.075 00:56:23.940

feed it for a couple of months.

00:56:23.940 00:56:25.850

take it to the sharfet.

00:56:25.850 00:56:29.065

and then it became your food.

00:56:29.065 00:56:33.255

So. most of the time. you ate fish?

00:56:33.255 00:56:38.770

We ate fish. or cheeses. or something like that.

00:56:40.100 00:56:45.550

Occasionally. you would get what's known as cold cuts.

00:56:45.860 00:56:49.305

salamis. light stuff. and stuff.

00:56:49.305 00:56:50.340

And yet. no-

00:56:50.340 00:56:51.675

But. things changed.

00:56:51.675 00:56:52.725

No Chinese food?

00:56:52.725 00:56:54.645

No Chinese food.

00:56:54.645 00:56:56.990

Not even Chinese cooking?

00:56:56.990 00:56:59.920

Not even. No. No.

00:56:59.920 00:57:02.340

Did your mother cook?

00:57:02.340 00:57:03.930

Yes. well. my mother-

00:57:03.930 00:57:04.780

I don't think she had the time for that.

00:57:04.780 00:57:07.810

My mother cooked. She took the time and she taught us

00:57:07.810 00:57:11.490

to do and told us what we want. what she wanted.

00:57:11.490 00:57:16.455

Very often. we would have sandwiches in the evening.

00:57:16.455 00:57:18.710

and either at the kindergarten.

00:57:18.710 00:57:20.485

or when I went to the school.

00:57:20.485 00:57:22.790

they would serve lunch.

00:57:24.890 00:57:31.365

Did you have to help your father because he was sick. and weak. and-

00:57:31.365 00:57:38.680

We did. but that actually was more in the. after 1943.

00:57:39.140 00:57:44.265

But. he became sick almost when-

00:57:44.265 00:57:44.790

Quite early.

00:57:44.790 00:57:47.175

You arrived to China?

00:57:47.175 00:57:48.940

Yes. quite early on.

00:57:48.940 00:57:52.230

You know. first. one thing. then another.

00:57:52.250 00:57:55.470

When you are weak from one thing.

00:57:55.470 00:57:57.345

it's easy to get the other thing?

00:57:57.345 00:58:04.020

Yes. In 1943.

00:58:04.020 00:58:08.690

in March of 1943.

00:58:08.690 00:58:10.835

I broke both my arms.

00:58:10.835 00:58:13.330

and when my parents came home.

00:58:13.330 00:58:15.505

our family doctor was there.

00:58:15.505 00:58:18.790

and they left me because he fainted.

00:58:18.790 00:58:21.725

My father fainted when he saw that.

00:58:21.725 00:58:23.280

Okay. we get to-

00:58:23.280 00:58:23.480

It's going too ahead.

00:58:23.480 00:58:27.630

To '43. you were very talented.

00:58:27.630 00:58:29.950

I understand.

00:58:31.790 00:58:37.505

We're talking about December of '41 now.

00:58:37.505 00:58:43.845

which means when Japan with America-

00:58:43.845 00:58:45.150

Started. yes.

00:58:45.150 00:58:50.115

Starting the war. Pearl Harbor. etc.

00:58:50.115 00:58:52.905

What stands out most is that the French

00:58:52.905 00:58:57.120

decided to blow up a couple of ships that were in the harbor.

00:58:58.070 00:59:04.380

On December 7th. about 7:00 on the 8th. they blew them up.

00:59:04.380 00:59:08.520

They didn't want them to be in the hands of Japanese.

00:59:08.930 00:59:14.985

You see. that's when the Japanese took over completely.

00:59:14.985 00:59:18.955

So. you felt it immediately?

00:59:18.955 00:59:20.320

We felt it immediately.

00:59:20.320 00:59:22.250

Its not that it was something in a distance.

00:59:22.250 00:59:23.850

It was above you?

00:59:23.850 00:59:25.700

It was there.

00:59:26.090 00:59:35.145

How was it for you when it becomes completely Japanese regime with.

00:59:35.145 00:59:40.625

I don't know. a kind of a puppet Chinese government. but-

00:59:40.625 00:59:43.030

There was not. there was no Chinese.

00:59:43.030 00:59:45.110

Really it was a Japanese regime.

00:59:45.110 00:59:47.320

There was no Chinese government.

00:59:47.320 00:59:50.035

The Japanese were the occupiers.

00:59:50.035 00:59:54.290

In 1942. nothing changed.

00:59:57.230 00:59:59.880

You had to move to Hongkew?

00:59:59.880 01:00:02.690

No. No. not in 1942.

01:00:02.690 01:00:08.320

On May 16th. 1943-

01:00:08.320 01:00:11.055

You have something with May 16?

01:00:11.055 01:00:13.530

Yeah.

01:00:13.530 01:00:15.600

The edict came out in about February.

01:00:15.600 01:00:19.125

that effective May 16th. 1943.

01:00:19.125 01:00:25.005

all refugees who came to Shanghai after 1937.

01:00:25.005 01:00:26.910

had to move to Hongkew.

01:00:26.910 01:00:29.400

which became the Hongkew ghetto.

01:00:29.400 01:00:36.325

So. at first. when there is Japanese regime and there is war with America.

01:00:36.325 01:00:44.960

maybe you didn't feel it so much because your mother was a good provider.

01:00:44.960 01:00:53.740

but the Jews that got help from the joint. from organizations-

01:00:53.740 01:00:54.345

Oh. they felt it.

01:00:54.345 01:00:57.970

-in America. they couldn't get it any more.

01:00:57.970 01:01:03.245

So. the situation there became more and more difficult.

01:01:03.245 01:01:05.800

but for you. you didn't feel it?

01:01:05.800 01:01:07.750

No. At that point in time.

01:01:07.750 01:01:10.915

we did not particularly have any.

01:01:10.915 01:01:12.855

it had no effect on us.

01:01:12.855 01:01:14.235

You went to school?

01:01:14.235 01:01:15.530

Kept on going to school.

01:01:15.530 01:01:18.085

At that time you're already.

01:01:18.085 01:01:20.830

it wasn't a kindergarten anymore.

01:01:20.830 01:01:20.990

No.

01:01:20.990 01:01:22.565

It's a school?

01:01:22.565 01:01:25.035

You had to pay for this school?

01:01:25.035 01:01:26.280

Yes.

01:01:26.280 01:01:28.110

A lot?

01:01:28.110 01:01:30.160

Well. you had to pay.

01:01:30.160 01:01:34.120

Anything you had to pay was a lot. extra expenses.

01:01:34.120 01:01:38.970

But. my parents decided that we should get a good education.

01:01:38.970 01:01:44.200

and that offered the best education we could get.

01:01:44.420 01:01:51.570

Did you read any Jewish newspapers in Shanghai?

01:01:51.570 01:01:53.450

At home. you were still young.

01:01:53.450 01:01:56.800

but the others in the family?

01:01:56.800 01:02:00.640

We did read newspapers and particularly in Hongkew.

01:02:00.640 01:02:03.870

I taught myself how to read German.

01:02:03.870 01:02:08.700

and read a German newspaper.

01:02:08.700 01:02:11.760

Read it in English also.

01:02:11.760 01:02:14.130

They had English newspapers.

01:02:14.130 01:02:19.790

At that time. you spoke German at home and English at school?

01:02:19.790 01:02:21.130

That is correct.

01:02:21.130 01:02:24.370

With your brother. did you speak German or English?

01:02:24.370 01:02:25.400

Both.

01:02:25.400 01:02:26.905

Combined?

01:02:26.905 01:02:27.770

Probably.

01:02:27.770 01:02:28.955

That means that-

01:02:28.955 01:02:30.100

Germlish.

01:02:30.100 01:02:34.100

That part of the sentence was German and part of it was English?

01:02:34.100 01:02:37.540

Yes. If you listen to my wife and I speak.

01:02:37.540 01:02:40.150

you'll see the same thing happen.

01:02:40.150 01:02:42.380

Also German with English?

01:02:42.380 01:02:44.770

Yeah. Germlish.

01:02:54.100 01:03:01.820

So. we are on February '42 and you say that for you.

01:03:01.820 01:03:04.685

there is not a big difference.

01:03:04.685 01:03:08.270

You continue to go to the private school.

01:03:08.270 01:03:09.410

It was a good one.

01:03:09.410 01:03:12.510

You have everything you need.

01:03:14.710 01:03:19.400

You really don't feel any difference when you walk on

01:03:19.400 01:03:23.420

the street and you see a Japanese soldier?

01:03:23.420 01:03:24.905

You're not afraid of him?

01:03:24.905 01:03:31.440

Well. you see them and they're around.

01:03:34.720 01:03:36.740

You're a foreign face.

01:03:36.740 01:03:38.960

they're not particularly friendly.

01:03:38.960 01:03:41.455

But at that point in time.

01:03:41.455 01:03:49.730

they're part of the Axis so you speak German loudly.

01:03:49.730 01:03:58.145

But what I don't understand is for the Japanese.

01:03:58.145 01:04:07.385

they treated the German Jews as they called in German [Foreign language].

01:04:07.385 01:04:10.655

Yeah. Stateless.

01:04:10.655 01:04:16.350

Yes. As far as I know.

01:04:16.480 01:04:21.485

they forced them to go to Hongkew.

01:04:21.485 01:04:23.450

Not till 43.

01:04:23.450 01:04:25.520

You say that you stayed at home.

01:04:25.520 01:04:34.790

Yes. The requirement to go into Hongkew did not take effect until May 16th.1943.

01:04:34.790 01:04:39.169

You say that if you wanted to feel

01:04:39.169 01:04:44.120

confident in front of a Japanese soldier. you spoke German?

01:04:44.120 01:04:44.750

Yes.

01:04:44.750 01:04:47.035

Because at that time. he didn't know if you're Jewish or not.

01:04:47.035 01:04:50.380

They wouldn't. They knew that we were not part of

01:04:50.380 01:04:55.535

the allies by speaking German because they were part of the Axis.

01:04:55.535 01:04:59.355

That means that they knew the difference between German and English.

01:04:59.355 01:05:01.590

We don't know that for sure.

01:05:01.590 01:05:05.230

but one assumes that and to be safe.

01:05:05.440 01:05:07.460

It helped.

01:05:07.460 01:05:10.350

It does. It did.

01:05:12.670 01:05:16.620

You still did everything as before?

01:05:16.620 01:05:22.085

You went to school? You went to play with friends even on the street?

01:05:22.085 01:05:25.380

Yes. Not much changed.

01:05:26.290 01:05:30.335

Your mother was still working.

01:05:30.335 01:05:36.425

But maybe people at that time had less money to spend

01:05:36.425 01:05:40.770

on expensive clothes because

01:05:40.770 01:05:45.560

no one knew what's going to happen after the Japanese took over.

01:05:45.560 01:05:48.215

Well. that's where the effect was felt.

01:05:48.215 01:05:53.325

that our business obviously suffered to a certain extent.

01:05:53.325 01:05:56.530

But she also has Japanese clientele.

01:05:56.530 01:05:59.840

many of whom were American-educated.

01:06:01.530 01:06:06.350

So. to a certain extent.

01:06:07.030 01:06:11.540

She also made oriental cloth or only European?

01:06:11.540 01:06:13.400

No. They would wear

01:06:13.400 01:06:19.440

European clothes but she could also make orientals. That wasn't a problem.

01:06:23.590 01:06:27.665

She had enough material?

01:06:27.665 01:06:29.360

That was available.

01:06:29.360 01:06:34.070

Usually. the oriental cloth are different materials from the Europeans.

01:06:34.070 01:06:34.460

Yes.

01:06:34.460 01:06:39.980

So. she had enough material for the European clothes although the war?

01:06:39.980 01:06:42.540

It was available.

01:06:44.110 01:06:47.460

In Shanghai. anything was available.

01:06:47.460 01:06:52.230

There was one incident that I hadn't mentioned.

01:06:53.250 01:06:58.690

it had a very specific effect on me.

01:06:58.690 01:07:01.830

At one period of time in Hongkew.

01:07:01.830 01:07:06.930

we were walking down a street and passing

01:07:06.930 01:07:12.890

an alleyway and the Japanese were hanging a Chinese man.

01:07:12.890 01:07:17.380

I saw him hang there and that this street.

01:07:17.380 01:07:22.610

we eventually lived on after 1943.

01:07:24.160 01:07:28.560

So. the cruelty was evident.

01:07:28.720 01:07:32.290

At that time before 43.

01:07:32.290 01:07:38.910

you didn't have any contacts with the Jews in Hongkew?

01:07:39.510 01:07:43.660

Unless we knew. There were people we knew. of course.

01:07:43.660 01:07:46.080

So. there was contact in that respect.

01:07:46.080 01:07:49.305

but there was free access.

01:07:49.305 01:07:54.020

But mostly. you had nothing to do with them?

01:07:54.020 01:07:56.285

Especially for you as a child?

01:07:56.285 01:07:58.340

They didn't go to school with you?

01:07:58.340 01:08:03.705

No. So. in that respect.

01:08:03.705 01:08:06.155

there was no relationship at all.

01:08:06.155 01:08:08.340

Did you like school?

01:08:08.340 01:08:10.405

Did I like school? Yes.

01:08:10.405 01:08:12.690

You were a good student?

01:08:12.690 01:08:14.950

Moderate.

01:08:15.070 01:08:20.845

The teachers were English from Great Britain?

01:08:20.845 01:08:23.170

At one time. yes.

01:08:23.170 01:08:32.580

That changed obviously after 42 but my English teacher was from England.

01:08:32.580 01:08:36.790

To this day. she is remembered fondly

01:08:36.790 01:08:42.470

by my classmates who are still alive and I'm still friendly with.

01:08:46.420 01:08:54.340

We say that you didn't have much to do with the Jews in Hongkew and

01:08:54.340 01:09:02.010

yet you also didn't have much to do with the high society Jews there.

01:09:02.010 01:09:03.470

That's correct.

01:09:03.470 01:09:08.045

So. mostly. your contacts were with those who went to school

01:09:08.045 01:09:12.110

with you which was the Russian Jewish colony?

01:09:12.110 01:09:15.135

In part. the Russian Jewish colony.

01:09:15.135 01:09:17.160

in part. us refugees.

01:09:17.160 01:09:27.665

Because the Russian colony was there mostly from 1917. '18. and 1920.

01:09:27.665 01:09:31.340

After the Russian revolution.

01:09:31.340 01:09:41.950

they went there and the refugees were like you from the Southeast. et cetera.

01:09:43.000 01:09:50.300

I suppose that you had a German Austrian colony there?

01:09:50.300 01:09:59.375

Not physically colony but a community that you used to speak German with them?

01:09:59.375 01:10:05.270

Had no association with the non-Jewish German community.

01:10:05.270 01:10:10.535

No. I'm not talking about non-Jewish but the German refugees like you.

01:10:10.535 01:10:15.385

Yes. I would either be depending on who it was you were talking to.

01:10:15.385 01:10:17.165

either German or English.

01:10:17.165 01:10:21.990

So. if you went to school and the school was

01:10:21.990 01:10:27.595

an English school and then most of the children there.

01:10:27.595 01:10:31.530

I understand well. from the Russian Jewish community.

01:10:31.530 01:10:34.245

so what was the common language for you?

01:10:34.245 01:10:35.205

English.

01:10:35.205 01:10:40.670

So. in the beginning. you couldn't speak to each other till you learned English?

01:10:40.670 01:10:42.395

Well. that didn't take long.

01:10:42.395 01:10:45.770

As a child. that does never takes long.

01:10:47.110 01:10:54.335

Was there a big difference in the mentality of the Russian.

01:10:54.335 01:10:57.195

Jews children. and you?

01:10:57.195 01:11:00.780

If there was. I wasn't aware of it.

01:11:01.750 01:11:04.445

A close friend of mine.

01:11:04.445 01:11:06.380

we went to school with her.

01:11:06.380 01:11:12.460

was born of Russian parentage born in Shanghai and we're still friends.

01:11:12.460 01:11:16.220

seven years later or more.

01:11:19.850 01:11:25.605

What else before May 23?

01:11:25.605 01:11:27.299

Well it's in February.

01:11:27.299 01:11:29.955

is when the announcement was made.

01:11:29.955 01:11:34.215

So that's when things started changing.

01:11:34.215 01:11:39.030

The bombardments begin later on?

01:11:39.030 01:11:39.540

Yes.

01:11:39.540 01:11:39.990

Right?

01:11:39.990 01:11:41.220

Yes.

01:11:41.220 01:11:47.970

So till May 43

01:11:47.970 01:11:52.590

was still in the French area.

01:11:52.590 01:11:58.885

Nice. relatively nice conditions and your mother was still walking.

01:11:58.885 01:12:05.215

Although.it was a little bit less than it used to be before.

01:12:05.215 01:12:11.995

And then when there was the announcement that you'll have to move to Hongkew.

01:12:11.995 01:12:14.895

was it a shock to your family?

01:12:14.895 01:12:21.870

Probably. Probably what was

01:12:21.870 01:12:26.025

happening in Europe as they remembered it. was following them.

01:12:26.025 01:12:30.540

Nobody knew what the effect of this was going to be.

01:12:31.960 01:12:38.090

But you don't remember actual panic?

01:12:38.090 01:12:40.895

When you had to move to Hongkew.

01:12:40.895 01:12:42.110

No. not panic.

01:12:42.110 01:12:46.280

What my parents did is that they saw it.

01:12:46.280 01:12:49.890

they went to seek for a place to live.

01:12:49.890 01:12:51.270

In Hongkew?

01:12:51.270 01:12:52.905

It had to be in Hongkew.

01:12:52.905 01:12:58.770

In Hongkew and inside what they used to call the ghetto.

01:12:58.770 01:13:05.680

Yes.Yes. It had to be within the designated areas. that's what they called it.

01:13:07.610 01:13:11.685

I thought it was called a restricted area.

01:13:11.685 01:13:16.650

Well. It was both. At first it was the designated because they designated at the outside.

01:13:16.650 01:13:20.255

And then it was restricted because you needed permission to leave.

01:13:20.255 01:13:26.335

Yes. So. officially they didn't call it ghetto but it was the ghetto.

01:13:26.335 01:13:33.940

Not as stable as the Polish ghettos but it was the ghetto.

01:13:33.940 01:13:38.620

So. they found a place to live there?

01:13:38.620 01:13:39.970

An apartment?

01:13:39.970 01:13:41.590

No. As a matter of fact-

01:13:41.590 01:13:49.015

Because most of the Jews there lived in the synagogue or in a kind of a refugee camp.

01:13:49.015 01:13:51.565

They were called the Haim.

01:13:51.565 01:13:53.800

There are a lot of people who lived there.

01:13:53.800 01:13:55.780

Half the community lived in that.

01:13:55.780 01:13:59.200

But we were fortunate together with another family.

01:13:59.200 01:14:05.135

we bought a four room house.

01:14:05.135 01:14:06.470

You bought?

01:14:06.470 01:14:11.500

Yes we bought. Together with this other family.

01:14:11.580 01:14:14.140

A four room house.

01:14:14.140 01:14:16.970

The family also from Germany?

01:14:16.970 01:14:19.025

Yes. They were from Germany.

01:14:19.025 01:14:23.030

Four rooms? It's a lot for two families.

01:14:23.030 01:14:24.500

No. it isn't

01:14:24.500 01:14:27.965

Relatively to the conditions in the ghetto.

01:14:27.965 01:14:31.545

for two families it was every spacious.

01:14:31.545 01:14:33.110

In that respect. yes.

01:14:33.110 01:14:35.550

But it was one large room downstairs.

01:14:35.550 01:14:37.610

when one large room upstairs.

01:14:37.610 01:14:39.980

and there was a little space in between.

01:14:39.980 01:14:41.580

and then one room.

01:14:41.580 01:14:45.430

small room downstairs and the same size room upstairs.

01:14:45.430 01:14:47.985

So. it was a two-storey house.

01:14:47.985 01:14:51.265

The other people who lived there.

01:14:51.265 01:14:54.440

was a man and woman.

01:14:54.440 01:14:57.785

his daughter. son in law and granddaughter.

01:14:57.785 01:15:02.340

So. they had. the man and woman had the room downstairs.

01:15:02.340 01:15:08.415

and the daughter. husband and granddaughter had the small room upstairs.

01:15:08.415 01:15:12.420

The big room upstairs was where my family lived.

01:15:12.420 01:15:18.405

and the other room was the communal kitchen.

01:15:18.405 01:15:25.460

It consisted of a basin with cold water tap.

01:15:25.460 01:15:29.950

and there was a space between the two houses.

01:15:29.950 01:15:31.130

these are row houses.

01:15:31.130 01:15:33.295

There was a little space between.

01:15:33.295 01:15:36.325

that space between became the toilet area.

01:15:36.325 01:15:39.910

That too had a basement and cold water.

01:15:39.910 01:15:43.940

And it had two buckets that were picked up.

01:15:43.940 01:15:47.060

honey buckets that were picked up every week.

01:15:48.830 01:15:57.210

That means that it was completely different from what you had in the French area?

01:15:57.210 01:15:57.840

Yes.

01:15:57.840 01:16:03.120

And yet it was much

01:16:03.120 01:16:08.925

better than it was for the others in the camps.

01:16:08.925 01:16:10.350

There was I think.

01:16:10.350 01:16:13.800

in a foreman's school yard or something like that.

01:16:13.800 01:16:21.600

There was a refugee camp.and in the synagogue there was a refugee camp?

01:16:21.600 01:16:23.984

No. Not in the synagogue.

01:16:23.984 01:16:26.070

the Mere Yeshiva occupied

01:16:26.070 01:16:29.505

the synagogue for a little while before they were put into housing.

01:16:29.505 01:16:35.460

But they tried to get exempted from having to go to Hongkew. but they didn't.

01:16:38.230 01:16:42.560

I think there were three Haima.

01:16:42.560 01:16:46.005

The three communal living areas.

01:16:46.005 01:16:50.110

That were really run on charity.

01:16:50.110 01:16:56.480

And I understand that you and brother were

01:16:56.480 01:17:03.215

together with your parents in the big room on the second floor?

01:17:03.215 01:17:06.515

Yes. The way I describe it is that.

01:17:06.515 01:17:09.340

we had a living room. we had a dining room.

01:17:09.340 01:17:12.550

we had bedrooms. we had a sitting room.

01:17:12.550 01:17:14.880

It was all the same room

01:17:15.250 01:17:19.745

And next to you on the smaller room.

01:17:19.745 01:17:22.115

there were the neighbors

01:17:22.115 01:17:27.480

There was a neighbor. You could also hear the neighbors through the walls.

01:17:27.580 01:17:30.205

You didn't need television.

01:17:30.205 01:17:34.170

sometimes you had entertainment from the people next door to you.

01:17:34.170 01:17:35.645

Did you know them?

01:17:35.645 01:17:37.835

Did your parents know them before?

01:17:37.835 01:17:44.450

No. Found them while we were searching for a place to live.

01:17:44.450 01:17:51.205

And it was a good combination?

01:17:51.205 01:17:53.990

Both families?

01:17:53.990 01:17:57.215

Yeah. Oh yes. We survived. we survived.

01:17:57.215 01:17:59.940

No major problems between the two families?

01:17:59.940 01:18:08.150

No major problems. No. They were totally unreligious. into marriage.

01:18:08.150 01:18:13.575

and as a matter of fact.

01:18:13.575 01:18:15.650

the son in law.

01:18:15.650 01:18:22.870

until Hitler. never even knew he had a Jewish background.

01:18:22.870 01:18:26.810

He was the youngest son of a wealthy family.

01:18:26.810 01:18:36.230

Had enjoyed America and got back to Germany and found out that he was a Jew.

01:18:36.230 01:18:37.145

Suddenly he's Jewish.

01:18:37.145 01:18:39.450

Yes suddenly he's Jewish.

01:18:42.700 01:18:47.240

The little daughter. she was your age or younger than you?

01:18:47.240 01:18:48.960

She was younger.

01:18:50.230 01:18:54.205

And there he spoke only German.

01:18:54.205 01:19:00.920

Well. he spoke English but basically only German in the house.

01:19:00.920 01:19:02.710

What about your parents.

01:19:02.710 01:19:09.150

besides German could they communicate in any other language?

01:19:09.150 01:19:10.815

They had to learn English.

01:19:10.815 01:19:14.310

They had to learn some English. Which they did.

01:19:14.310 01:19:19.945

And you learned how to communicate with your hands.

01:19:19.945 01:19:23.050

You made yourself understood.

01:19:23.050 01:19:30.910

So. English was the other language besides Chinese which obviously-.

01:19:30.910 01:19:31.555

Yes.

01:19:31.555 01:19:35.800

-none of the strangers speak.

01:19:35.800 01:19:39.740

There are some people who have learned how to speak Chinese.

01:19:40.320 01:19:43.435

Did you learn Chinese at school?

01:19:43.435 01:19:45.720

Not till after the war.

01:19:45.720 01:19:49.835

because the Japanese made the foreigners learn Japanese.

01:19:49.835 01:19:56.750

the Chinese decided that foreigners are going to have to learn Chinese.

01:19:56.750 01:20:00.475

So you learned a little bit of Japanese?

01:20:00.475 01:20:03.085

Yes. Very little.

01:20:03.085 01:20:08.225

When the teacher comes in and takes off his pistol and puts it on the desk.

01:20:08.225 01:20:11.450

he's not going to teach children very much.

01:20:14.880 01:20:21.265

But did you like something about the Chinese culture or

01:20:21.265 01:20:27.740

the Japanese culture which was so different from what you knew at home?

01:20:27.740 01:20:34.180

Those are things as a child you had never even considered.

01:20:35.390 01:20:40.645

I like to say that this is the way. this was life.

01:20:40.645 01:20:43.560

I had no basis of comparison.

01:20:43.560 01:20:46.305

I didn't know that there could be a different life.

01:20:46.305 01:20:51.655

But were you attracted to the oriental cultures?

01:20:51.655 01:20:55.190

No. Since we had since very little interaction.

01:20:55.190 01:21:00.855

other than living together but you weren't friendly necessarily.

01:21:00.855 01:21:05.240

But in Hongkew. you were living together with Chinese-.

01:21:05.240 01:21:05.660

Yes.

01:21:05.660 01:21:10.460

-which wasn't like that when you were the French section.

01:21:10.460 01:21:13.415

But now you're together with Chinese?

01:21:13.415 01:21:15.700

Except that in the French concession.

01:21:15.700 01:21:21.170

the landlord was Chinese or the person running the apartment.

01:21:22.540 01:21:28.230

Because on the last space that we celebrated in the French Concession.

01:21:28.230 01:21:31.230

when we opened the door for Eliyahu.

01:21:31.230 01:21:33.610

there was the landlord.

01:21:35.450 01:21:39.100

So we know it will be a chinaman.

01:21:39.830 01:21:46.590

So. in Hongkew as you said.

01:21:46.590 01:21:51.435

your standard of living really went down.

01:21:51.435 01:21:56.380

What about your mother's walk?

01:21:59.480 01:22:02.475

There was less of it.

01:22:02.475 01:22:05.070

but she continued to work for some-

01:22:05.070 01:22:06.745

She could go outside?

01:22:06.745 01:22:13.100

Ultimately. she got permission to do so as we got permission to go to school. too.

01:22:13.100 01:22:17.975

You either had a three months or a three-week pass.

01:22:17.975 01:22:20.210

I thought it was for a year.

01:22:20.210 01:22:22.370

No. It was not.

01:22:22.370 01:22:24.140

It was a pass-

01:22:24.140 01:22:27.365

So you had to renew it every time?

01:22:27.365 01:22:31.770

You were never sure that they will renew it.

01:22:32.200 01:22:35.575

There was no guarantee it would be renewed.

01:22:35.575 01:22:37.580

My mother who also still had

01:22:37.580 01:22:43.470

some Japanese customers who obviously gave her a recommendation.

01:22:43.470 01:22:46.155

One day when she went to renew.

01:22:46.155 01:22:47.690

she had a three-week pass.

01:22:47.690 01:22:49.970

when she went to renew it.

01:22:49.970 01:22:52.740

the official said no.

01:22:52.810 01:22:57.435

She came back a few hours later wearing different clothes.

01:22:57.435 01:22:59.245

He said no again.

01:22:59.245 01:23:02.810

She came back a few hours later wearing different clothes.

01:23:02.810 01:23:06.950

Still said no. The fourth time. She got it.

01:23:06.950 01:23:09.570

So it was just like that.

01:23:09.570 01:23:10.815

It was random.

01:23:10.815 01:23:14.335

Well. yes. absolutely random.

01:23:14.335 01:23:18.610

I was in line behind a man who was the butcher.

01:23:18.610 01:23:20.260

As a child. he was a big.

01:23:20.260 01:23:23.480

strong. white man. real strong.

01:23:23.710 01:23:26.890

The official just got up and beat him up.

01:23:26.890 01:23:28.975

slapped him around and everything.

01:23:28.975 01:23:31.115

Scared me to death.

01:23:31.115 01:23:33.020

Next I came up.

01:23:33.020 01:23:34.260

friendly as can be.

01:23:34.260 01:23:37.880

smiling and got their approval.

01:23:38.700 01:23:46.060

So. there is something about people

01:23:46.060 01:23:53.410

saying the Japanese are let's say a bit cruel.

01:23:53.410 01:23:59.680

Their cruelty is something out of the culture.

01:23:59.680 01:24:01.510

or something like that?

01:24:01.510 01:24:07.360

In studies that I have made as an adult and things that I have read.

01:24:07.360 01:24:12.760

I am amazed that the Japanese officials

01:24:12.760 01:24:18.960

and the Japanese government didn't do things worse to us than they did.

01:24:18.960 01:24:23.570

Because the way they treated the allied prisoners that they had.

01:24:23.570 01:24:27.595

the noncombatants. was horrendous.

01:24:27.595 01:24:30.925

So in comparison. we were treated very well.

01:24:30.925 01:24:36.380

I think that they didn't even know what Jews are.

01:24:36.380 01:24:40.620

They didn't know Jews before.

01:24:41.050 01:24:45.705

I think that is not totally correct because the

01:24:45.705 01:24:49.925

Japanese by and large. they're very intelligent.

01:24:49.925 01:24:56.045

So the appropriate government officials knew what Jews are.

01:24:56.045 01:24:58.040

There was an admiral.

01:24:58.040 01:25:00.725

a Japanese admiral. in charge of Shanghai.

01:25:00.725 01:25:03.755

He was under tremendous pressure from the Germans.

01:25:03.755 01:25:08.800

I'm not talking about the high command of the Japanese.

01:25:08.800 01:25:09.475

The average?

01:25:09.475 01:25:13.824

But the average Japanese even in Shanghai.

01:25:13.824 01:25:16.300

they didn't know what the Jews are.

01:25:16.300 01:25:16.810

No. they wouldn't know.

01:25:16.810 01:25:19.705

Like the Chinese didn't know what Jews are.

01:25:19.705 01:25:20.215

No.

01:25:20.215 01:25:23.470

They were foreigners and that's it.

01:25:23.470 01:25:27.580

That's right that the Japanese were under

01:25:27.580 01:25:33.835

German pressure to give the Jews away and they didn't.

01:25:33.835 01:25:34.990

Yes.

01:25:34.990 01:25:40.135

Till today. I don't know what were the reasons.

01:25:40.135 01:25:42.620

Nobody does. actually.

01:25:42.620 01:25:44.605

There's been speculation.

01:25:44.605 01:25:48.960

People have written books on the speculation. but nobody knows.

01:25:48.960 01:25:55.975

But the attitude of the Japanese toward foreigners.

01:25:55.975 01:26:00.104

particularly combatants and their families.

01:26:00.104 01:26:03.990

and the cruelty is part of their nature.

01:26:03.990 01:26:07.750

It is amazing that they didn't exercise that against us.

01:26:07.750 01:26:11.275

But you saw it on occasions.

01:26:11.275 01:26:14.245

Oh. yes. On occasions you could see it.

01:26:14.245 01:26:18.890

They had no inhibition in beating somebody up.

01:26:19.590 01:26:22.060

For no reason?

01:26:22.060 01:26:27.860

No. Just because you didn't bow your head properly enough or something.

01:26:27.860 01:26:30.070

They could be very cruel.

01:26:30.070 01:26:32.410

What about the Japanese children.

01:26:32.410 01:26:36.535

did you have anything to do with them?

01:26:36.535 01:26:38.990

No association at all.

01:26:42.000 01:26:46.880

Of course.the Japanese and the Chinese didn't like each other very much.

01:26:46.880 01:26:50.440

so did you see on the streets.

01:26:50.440 01:26:56.480

for instance. fights between Japanese and Chinese children?

01:26:56.480 01:26:57.490

No.

01:26:57.490 01:27:01.634

Could you even say who's Japanese.

01:27:01.634 01:27:04.080

who's Chinese? Could you see the difference?

01:27:04.080 01:27:08.235

Eventually. you do learn that there are some differences.

01:27:08.235 01:27:13.330

Because for me they look the same.

01:27:13.330 01:27:20.240

We see that as part of our population too but there are differences.

01:27:20.790 01:27:24.440

But as a foreigner. we had basically.

01:27:24.440 01:27:30.540

no association with either the Chinese children or the Japanese.

01:27:31.870 01:27:34.760

When you were in Hongkew.

01:27:34.760 01:27:39.685

you could still celebrate the Jewish holidays?

01:27:39.685 01:27:41.730

As a matter of fact. more so.

01:27:41.730 01:27:47.025

Because Hongkew also had the influence of the Mir.

01:27:47.025 01:27:50.620

Besides going to the day school.

01:27:51.560 01:27:57.855

excuse me. I went to the territory of the Mir.

01:27:57.855 01:28:05.505

But Mir Yeshiva coming from the town Mir.

01:28:05.505 01:28:12.570

they where more Orthodox than you used to be. I supposed.

01:28:12.570 01:28:14.445

Much more Orthodox.

01:28:14.445 01:28:18.280

But they tried to influence as much as they could.

01:28:22.310 01:28:29.190

Did your parents know what Mir is about when they sent you there?

01:28:29.190 01:28:35.150

I'm not so sure. Perhaps they sent us there just to make sure we don't get in trouble.

01:28:35.150 01:28:37.530

We learned something about Judaism.

01:28:37.530 01:28:39.790

Your brother was there also?

01:28:39.790 01:28:41.035

Yes.

01:28:41.035 01:28:43.660

What was the language there?

01:28:43.660 01:28:45.415

Yiddish.

01:28:45.415 01:28:49.825

You could understand Yiddish because of your German?

01:28:49.825 01:28:51.290

Yes.

01:28:52.590 01:28:55.720

But could you speak Yiddish?

01:28:55.720 01:28:58.000

If you mispronounce German.

01:28:58.000 01:28:59.340

you can speak Yiddish.

01:28:59.340 01:29:02.260

What about reading and writing?

01:29:02.260 01:29:04.445

Well. not reading and writing.

01:29:04.445 01:29:05.840

Because it's the Hebrew letters.

01:29:05.840 01:29:07.730

But you learned the Hebrew. well.

01:29:07.730 01:29:13.095

you learned Hebrew. and you learned to translate from the Hebrew into the Yiddish.

01:29:13.095 01:29:15.615

It's not easy.

01:29:15.615 01:29:17.460

You were young.

01:29:17.460 01:29:19.395

How old were you at that time?

01:29:19.395 01:29:22.920

Well. I was 11 when the war ended.

01:29:22.920 01:29:29.030

So. it would have been from about nine and a half.10. and 11.

01:29:29.100 01:29:31.905

Did you like it there?

01:29:31.905 01:29:35.440

No basis of comparison. yes.

01:29:35.740 01:29:43.325

Sometimes. I ask someone if he liked the [Foreign language].

01:29:43.325 01:29:44.725

Of course. at that time.

01:29:44.725 01:29:48.705

you didn't have anything to compare with and yet he said.

01:29:48.705 01:29:50.610

"No. I didn't like it.

01:29:50.610 01:29:51.930

I didn't like the [Foreign language].

01:29:51.930 01:29:55.065

I didn't like this and that."

01:29:55.065 01:29:58.020

You had to compare it to school.

01:29:58.020 01:30:01.350

Well. to compare it to school. it was different.

01:30:01.350 01:30:04.915

It was different in the pronunciation of Hebrew.

01:30:04.915 01:30:10.880

because during the day time in classes you would learn Sephardi Hebrew.

01:30:11.210 01:30:13.755

That's the Hebrew we speak today?

01:30:13.755 01:30:18.810

Yes. and that in prayer.

01:30:18.810 01:30:22.530

at the Mir. you had to use the European.

01:30:22.530 01:30:25.740

So you had that differences.

01:30:25.740 01:30:28.365

The teachers were different.

01:30:28.365 01:30:30.980

I was lucky I had some good teachers.

01:30:30.980 01:30:33.480

I had friends there.

01:30:33.480 01:30:35.595

They were Hasidic?

01:30:35.595 01:30:37.600

Oh. yes.

01:30:37.670 01:30:40.920

Not Lithuanians. but Hasidic.

01:30:40.920 01:30:43.350

Well. there were Lithuanians.

01:30:43.350 01:30:45.900

Mir is in Poland so they were-

01:30:45.900 01:30:49.335

Mir. if I'm not mistaken is Belarus.

01:30:49.335 01:30:51.060

if I'm not mistaken.

01:30:51.060 01:30:52.770

I believe it's in Poland.

01:30:52.770 01:30:54.690

It's a city in Poland but-

01:30:54.690 01:30:57.795

It's used to be in Poland.

01:30:57.795 01:31:00.030

But today. I think.

01:31:00.030 01:31:04.240

it's Belarus. if I remember correctly.

01:31:05.300 01:31:08.970

Without looking at a globe.

01:31:08.970 01:31:12.350

neither of us could- we could be both right.

01:31:12.350 01:31:16.010

But anyway. it was Hasidic Yeshiva.

01:31:16.010 01:31:17.860

Yes. it was.

01:31:17.860 01:31:20.840

I had a friend who did not go there.

01:31:20.840 01:31:26.125

I had been known to skip classes and I'd go there to be with my friend.

01:31:26.125 01:31:31.430

Did you begin to have [Foreign language].

01:31:31.430 01:31:36.755

No. the [Foreign language] we were against that.

01:31:36.755 01:31:43.275

But you began to become a German Chavez.

01:31:43.275 01:31:45.555

They tried to influence that.

01:31:45.555 01:31:47.745

Which you weren't before?

01:31:47.745 01:31:52.095

We went to the extent that they tried to do it.

01:31:52.095 01:31:56.220

As my oldest friend tells me that he

01:31:56.220 01:32:00.570

remembers when I wouldn't have a handkerchief in my pocket.

01:32:00.570 01:32:03.300

I would carry it in my belt.

01:32:03.370 01:32:06.830

You were [Foreign language].

01:32:06.830 01:32:11.480

So when you came home from that Talmud Tora.

01:32:11.480 01:32:14.540

and you told your parents. "Listen.

01:32:14.540 01:32:18.130

we shouldn't do this and this and this on Saturday."

01:32:18.130 01:32:21.575

They said in the Talmud Torah.

01:32:21.575 01:32:24.980

So how did they react?

01:32:24.980 01:32:31.490

They said that they encouraged us to follow the instructions that we were given.

01:32:31.490 01:32:36.500

They didn't object and that we went on doing what we did.

01:32:36.500 01:32:39.665

They changed some things also?

01:32:39.665 01:32:43.590

Not really. Not really

01:32:43.690 01:32:50.180

At that time you went to the synagogue every Friday and Saturday.

01:32:50.180 01:32:54.770

Yes. we will go to the Talmud Torah where they've had services.

01:32:56.310 01:32:59.140

That was all part of the education.

01:32:59.140 01:33:02.245

Your brother had Bar Mitzvah there?

01:33:02.245 01:33:06.070

My brother had his Bar Mitzvah in November of 1944.

01:33:06.070 01:33:11.590

How was it? He had

01:33:11.590 01:33:14.860

the sermons and all the [Foreign language] and

01:33:14.860 01:33:17.875

everything that we use to do in the Bar Mitzvah?

01:33:17.875 01:33:22.650

Well. all he did was he was called from after and he read the half Torah.

01:33:22.650 01:33:26.080

and that was it.

01:33:26.630 01:33:29.355

That's the way it used to be

01:33:29.355 01:33:32.550

Festive dinner or something?

01:33:32.550 01:33:37.120

No. there was a reception at the house that was prepared.

01:33:38.840 01:33:42.810

So under the circumstances. it was very nice.

01:33:42.810 01:33:46.960

It was the only [Foreign language] where there was no bomb falling.

01:33:50.850 01:33:59.020

So now. you had let's say two centers in your life?

01:33:59.020 01:34:03.685

One was school. the other was the Mir Yeshiva.

01:34:03.685 01:34:04.495

Yeah.

01:34:04.495 01:34:08.170

Were the children your age?

01:34:08.170 01:34:08.950

Oh yes.

01:34:08.950 01:34:10.930

They didn't go to school with you but-

01:34:10.930 01:34:11.110

Yes.

01:34:11.110 01:34:13.540

-others that you didn't know before.

01:34:13.540 01:34:19.565

So. you knew some children that you didn't know before?

01:34:19.565 01:34:20.740

There was a refugee.

01:34:20.740 01:34:25.950

a Jewish refugees school that was established by Kadares.

01:34:25.950 01:34:29.330

the Shanghai Jewish Youth Association School.

01:34:29.330 01:34:35.285

And some of my classmates at the time of [Foreign language].

01:34:35.285 01:34:38.265

they went to that school.

01:34:38.265 01:34:41.070

So. we became friends.

01:34:41.070 01:34:48.710

What about Zionist movement around there because the war was in Shanghai?

01:34:48.710 01:34:53.305

We belong. I belong to [Foreign language].

01:34:53.305 01:34:58.080

Because your friends were there or because of the ideology?

01:34:58.710 01:35:01.750

That age does not know ideology.

01:35:01.750 01:35:04.980

Ideology didn't mean anything. You went there-

01:35:04.980 01:35:05.940

Your friends went there?

01:35:05.940 01:35:09.690

Friends went there. Parents encouraged you to go there

01:35:09.690 01:35:15.290

because of keep you out of trouble. keep you busy.

01:35:16.420 01:35:19.995

That was more important than any ideology.

01:35:19.995 01:35:22.150

What did you do there in [Foreign language]?

01:35:22.150 01:35:26.235

We learned to march.

01:35:26.235 01:35:29.005

we learned to play soldier.

01:35:29.005 01:35:35.020

and learned songs and learned Zionism.

01:35:35.020 01:35:36.595

[Foreign language]

01:35:36.595 01:35:38.420

As our leader.

01:35:38.420 01:35:41.790

You didn't have the brown uniform?

01:35:41.790 01:35:46.450

Yes. we did. which is something I never understood.

01:35:46.450 01:35:50.385

But at least. as I think of it as an adult. why brown?

01:35:50.385 01:35:51.960

But we wore brown shirts.

01:35:51.960 01:35:59.590

and it was the Jew scouts. not ideology.

01:36:00.350 01:36:02.550

But my father-

01:36:02.550 01:36:05.595

You were not fighting with other movements?

01:36:05.595 01:36:11.770

No. No. No. You could have belonged to Misrafi too.

01:36:11.770 01:36:16.585

and if there were differences in ideology.

01:36:16.585 01:36:18.580

it was very unimportant.

01:36:18.580 01:36:25.345

My father was a member of Hagana. I have it.

01:36:25.345 01:36:28.550

I have in my possession that he had a certificate.

01:36:28.550 01:36:30.240

not a certificate. had a book.

01:36:30.240 01:36:33.585

It was to give charity. to make donations if he could.

01:36:33.585 01:36:36.420

And your brother was also in [Foreign language]?

01:36:36.420 01:36:38.135

Yes. He was also.

01:36:38.135 01:36:44.440

The means that you thought that when the war was over you were going to Palestine?

01:36:44.440 01:36:46.410

We thought that was an option.

01:36:46.410 01:36:48.300

We didn't know for sure.

01:36:48.300 01:36:55.555

Although I assume you didn't know what was going on in Germany.

01:36:55.555 01:37:00.610

going back to Germany after the war was no option?

01:37:00.610 01:37:01.685

No.

01:37:01.685 01:37:05.055

Even before you knew what's going on there?

01:37:05.055 01:37:08.765

It definitely was no option after we knew.

01:37:08.765 01:37:10.105

But before?

01:37:10.105 01:37:14.475

I don't think we ever looked ahead that far.

01:37:14.475 01:37:18.655

When the letters stopped.

01:37:18.655 01:37:21.785

you saw that it's something to do with the war?

01:37:21.785 01:37:25.010

Absolutely. And after the war.

01:37:25.010 01:37:29.985

there was some letters that were written to us in Shanghai.

01:37:29.985 01:37:32.865

That's when we received them.

01:37:32.865 01:37:38.135

And then. we received through the international organizations.

01:37:38.135 01:37:42.360

We received lists of people who died.

01:37:42.360 01:37:46.450

And I remember being with my father looking at the list.

01:37:46.450 01:37:50.800

and seeing the effect it had on him when his family was all on there.

01:37:50.800 01:37:59.900

And your mother lost

01:37:59.900 01:38:05.780

her parents and the sisters in the family?

01:38:05.780 01:38:10.110

Yes. All of them. My cousins.

01:38:11.790 01:38:16.250

I grew up without knowing my grandparents.

01:38:16.250 01:38:17.540

No first. no uncle.

01:38:17.540 01:38:21.670

no aunt. no first cousins.

01:38:21.670 01:38:26.010

So. you had only one aunt in America and that's it?

01:38:26.010 01:38:28.170

And whom I didn't remember from Germany.

01:38:28.170 01:38:30.960

So. that's it.

01:38:32.380 01:38:36.555

But at that time in Shanghai.

01:38:36.555 01:38:40.600

you didn't really know what's going on?

01:38:40.600 01:38:44.575

You. as you can say you live the day.

01:38:44.575 01:38:49.520

And I understand that you had. the whole time.

01:38:49.520 01:38:52.040

you had the permission to go out to school.

01:38:52.040 01:38:55.710

and your mother had the permission to go to work outside.

01:38:55.710 01:38:58.535

So. that means you were not hungry?

01:38:58.535 01:38:59.975

Oh yes.

01:38:59.975 01:39:01.940

It does not mean we weren't hungry.

01:39:01.940 01:39:07.105

but that was just part of the way things are.

01:39:07.105 01:39:09.255

Things may get better. they may not.

01:39:09.255 01:39:15.950

You didn't know what was going on in the war because the Swiss were in Shanghai.

01:39:15.950 01:39:18.285

and they gave out news.

01:39:18.285 01:39:19.700

The Red Cross.

01:39:19.700 01:39:22.490

Well. not the Red Cross per se.

01:39:22.490 01:39:28.495

but the Swiss. you got the information from them.

01:39:28.495 01:39:29.325

But-

01:39:29.325 01:39:34.685

Then you learned. you also learned how to interpret the Japanese propaganda.

01:39:34.685 01:39:36.655

You learned how to interpret

01:39:36.655 01:39:40.600

the Russian propaganda because

01:39:40.600 01:39:45.385

the Russians were not at war with Japan until the last minute.

01:39:45.385 01:39:47.680

Was it you waited.

01:39:47.750 01:39:54.685

whom did you think that will save you;the Americans.

01:39:54.685 01:39:58.210

the British. the Russians? What did you think about?

01:39:58.210 01:40:05.695

We didn't. I cannot ever think of a time when I thought of somebody saving us.

01:40:05.695 01:40:13.040

The concern more was when will it end and how will it end?

01:40:13.980 01:40:18.760

And yet. at the end of '43.

01:40:18.760 01:40:22.720

there was a permission to be joined by

01:40:22.720 01:40:27.000

the American finance ministry or something like that.

01:40:27.000 01:40:30.310

They had the permission again to send

01:40:30.310 01:40:35.130

some money and some help to the refugees in Shanghai.

01:40:35.130 01:40:39.495

So. things became a little better.

01:40:39.495 01:40:44.530

You remember. you felt the difference between and after?

01:40:44.530 01:40:45.140

Well.

01:40:45.140 01:40:51.120

Or maybe you didn't need anything from the community there?

01:40:51.120 01:40:55.760

Well. fortunately. we were not recipients of any of the.

01:40:55.760 01:40:57.810

"Give me no funds." I have seen-

01:40:57.810 01:41:01.890

No even when you went in for the second time in Hong Kong.

01:41:01.890 01:41:05.020

No. Not even then.

01:41:06.630 01:41:10.885

From research I have done as an adult.

01:41:10.885 01:41:19.700

and from a PhD dissertation that was written by somebody that I have read.

01:41:19.700 01:41:26.000

there was an American social worker that was sent to Shanghai in 1941.

01:41:26.000 01:41:31.630

And she made the arrangements ultimately

01:41:31.630 01:41:34.065

that the secretary of the treasury of America

01:41:34.065 01:41:38.089

allowed the joint to send money to Switzerland.

01:41:38.089 01:41:40.580

and they changed the money in Switzerland.

01:41:40.580 01:41:44.315

and the Swiss then sent money.

01:41:44.315 01:41:52.705

But you didn't feel the difference because you were not in such a need as they were.

01:41:52.705 01:41:57.770

but when you were in the French Concession.

01:41:57.770 01:42:02.775

okay. you didn't see those people because they were apart from you.

01:42:02.775 01:42:05.155

When you lived in the Hongkew.

01:42:05.155 01:42:07.150

you saw the other Jews.

01:42:07.150 01:42:10.590

You saw the conditions of the others.

01:42:10.590 01:42:15.980

You saw them miserable and hungry. et cetera.

01:42:15.980 01:42:22.105

Was that a big difference between them and you?

01:42:22.105 01:42:24.400

I wouldn't call that a big difference.

01:42:24.400 01:42:26.755

It's just a difference of emphasis.

01:42:26.755 01:42:30.200

We were the luckier ones.

01:42:32.070 01:42:35.810

And it wasn't day and night.

01:42:35.810 01:42:43.000

It was just that they were able because the Jewish Committee.

01:42:43.000 01:42:45.635

even the Russian Jewish community in Shanghai.

01:42:45.635 01:42:49.560

I think they tried to help the immigrants also

01:42:49.560 01:42:54.870

even during the period when America couldn't or wouldn't allow it.

01:42:54.870 01:42:59.295

And so. to a certain extent.

01:42:59.295 01:43:03.160

nothing really changed. Justice saw us.

01:43:04.370 01:43:09.550

And yet you said that there was a point that you

01:43:09.550 01:43:14.340

had to sell the China and things you got from Germany?

01:43:14.340 01:43:18.125

That was in order to buy the property in Hongkew.

01:43:18.125 01:43:22.700

We were lucky to have it. to sell it.

01:43:24.240 01:43:33.100

but that became the payment for the place in Shanghai. in Hongkew.

01:43:33.720 01:43:40.020

So you still had everything you needed for school.

01:43:40.020 01:43:45.300

for basic life. you had enough clothes.

01:43:45.300 01:43:48.780

and shoes. and the books for school et cetera?

01:43:48.780 01:43:52.660

Yes.

01:43:52.660 01:43:58.200

And food on the table although the variety was not as before.

01:43:58.200 01:44:01.320

but you had food on the table?

01:44:01.320 01:44:03.050

Yes.

01:44:03.930 01:44:07.850

You used to be spoiled about food?

01:44:07.850 01:44:08.610

No.

01:44:08.610 01:44:10.860

That. "Oh I don't like this. I don't like that."

01:44:10.860 01:44:13.500

No. My father's rule was very simple;

01:44:13.500 01:44:18.060

you eat what's served or you go hungry. So. you had a choice.

01:44:18.060 01:44:22.630

And they didn't force you to eat what was on your plate.

01:44:22.630 01:44:26.300

and settle near the table till you finished it?

01:44:26.300 01:44:29.070

No. No. You don't want to eat it.

01:44:29.070 01:44:32.230

you don't have to. but you're not getting anything else.

01:44:32.520 01:44:37.090

I think it's a little better than what I heard

01:44:37.090 01:44:41.290

about bringing up in Germany that either you had to

01:44:41.290 01:44:44.970

sit near the table till you finish what you have on

01:44:44.970 01:44:49.285

your plate or you had the same thing on the next-

01:44:49.285 01:44:51.985

Next meal.

01:44:51.985 01:44:53.890

Lunch or yeah. So-

01:44:53.890 01:44:55.280

No. It wasn't that.

01:44:55.280 01:44:57.015

Your parents were moderate?

01:44:57.015 01:44:59.960

I would say they were more moderate. plus.

01:44:59.960 01:45:02.870

many times if you sat down to eat.

01:45:02.870 01:45:08.525

there could be disruption by alarm. air raid.

01:45:08.525 01:45:11.855

So. that it becomes meaningless anyway.

01:45:11.855 01:45:22.490

The- The upbringing of you was you think it was different

01:45:22.490 01:45:28.435

because you were in Shanghai than if you were in Berlin at the same time.

01:45:28.435 01:45:30.805

I mean. all the rules and

01:45:30.805 01:45:38.585

the restrictions and everything that we know about the classical German education.

01:45:38.585 01:45:41.730

I wouldn't have any way of knowing that.

01:45:41.730 01:45:44.435

But I think my parents were.

01:45:44.435 01:45:49.800

they were strict in some respects and liberal in others.

01:45:50.310 01:45:57.620

So. you lived under the circumstances and did what had to be done and that was it.

01:45:57.620 01:46:04.860

Do you remember your parents kissing and hugging you as a child?

01:46:04.860 01:46:06.775

Somewhat yes.

01:46:06.775 01:46:09.520

Yes. we didn't feel neglected.

01:46:09.520 01:46:16.180

No. I'm not talking about neglected but sometimes there is a saying about

01:46:16.180 01:46:25.240

the Jews from Germany that they didn't really hugged and kissed the children.

01:46:25.240 01:46:35.350

No. we felt that we were loved. never a problem.

01:46:36.570 01:46:41.230

The only thing is that sometimes you saw other mothers be at

01:46:41.230 01:46:45.985

home with their children and you knew your mother wasn't because she was working.

01:46:45.985 01:46:50.770

But I suppose that your father was much more with you.

01:46:50.770 01:46:54.950

He was. but he also did some things out of the house.

01:46:54.950 01:46:56.140

Like what?

01:46:56.140 01:46:58.810

He and one of the Himes.

01:46:58.810 01:47:07.555

they had problems in the kitchen and he volunteered to oversee.

01:47:07.555 01:47:11.865

He had the type of personality that he could make people get along.

01:47:11.865 01:47:17.265

The big privileges that we got out of that is that occasionally.

01:47:17.265 01:47:19.585

we could go and take a shower there.

01:47:19.585 01:47:22.265

He was like a referee there?

01:47:22.265 01:47:27.810

Yes. Yes. he got the talent.

01:47:30.710 01:47:38.605

And for you. the biggest problem at that time was the bombardments?

01:47:38.605 01:47:40.100

No. it wasn't the problem.

01:47:40.100 01:47:41.560

We knew it was happening.

01:47:41.560 01:47:45.530

We had heard of that super bomb that America dropped.

01:47:45.530 01:47:48.400

We didn't know what an atomic bomb was.

01:47:48.400 01:47:50.470

we were afraid that the next Air Raid.

01:47:50.470 01:47:55.675

they will drop one on us. But other than that.

01:47:55.675 01:48:01.465

But there was a constant bombardments over Shanghai.

01:48:01.465 01:48:04.205

Not constant. not constant.

01:48:04.205 01:48:07.510

Shanghai. because it's a port city and because of

01:48:07.510 01:48:10.690

the facilities they had that eventually. they tried to.

01:48:10.690 01:48:16.315

I think there was a big bomb that they.

01:48:16.315 01:48:17.380

They missed.

01:48:17.380 01:48:23.425

Sent to. no. they sent it to the Japanese radio station in Hongkew.

01:48:23.425 01:48:24.640

Yes. Yes and they missed.

01:48:24.640 01:48:26.110

And many people were injured.

01:48:26.110 01:48:28.270

Yes. July of 1945.

01:48:28.270 01:48:30.830

I'm well aware of that.

01:48:31.830 01:48:38.790

Because you could see anybody who had any medical knowledge

01:48:38.790 01:48:48.490

or ability was asked to help down the lane from us.

01:48:50.270 01:48:54.170

There was a doctor who lived there who before

01:48:54.170 01:48:57.180

leaving Germany was a guest of the Germans in

01:48:57.180 01:49:00.680

the concentration camp and decided never to

01:49:00.680 01:49:04.760

practice medicine anymore and he was called in to help.

01:49:04.760 01:49:10.445

It was close to the place that you lived in?

01:49:10.445 01:49:13.640

Yes. everything was close in the Ghetto.

01:49:13.640 01:49:20.410

And when there was a bombardment.

01:49:20.410 01:49:23.025

I understand that that wasn't a lawn before.

01:49:23.025 01:49:23.575

Yes.

01:49:23.575 01:49:26.160

But you had where to go to hide.

01:49:26.160 01:49:29.185

You had a cellar or shelter or something?

01:49:29.185 01:49:33.550

You did. There were places designated as shelters.

01:49:33.550 01:49:41.185

And I learned early on that that's the worst place in the world to go because people

01:49:41.185 01:49:44.665

had different types of reactions

01:49:44.665 01:49:50.350

and it's better to take your chances outside than inside.

01:49:50.350 01:49:54.930

So at an early point.

01:49:54.930 01:49:56.080

I made up my mind.

01:49:56.080 01:50:00.510

I was into shelters and that I wouldn't go to them anymore.

01:50:00.510 01:50:03.540

What did your parents say about it?

01:50:03.540 01:50:05.110

Well. not too much.

01:50:05.110 01:50:07.190

They could understand the problem.

01:50:07.190 01:50:13.265

My father. one of the requirements that they made in the Ghetto was that

01:50:13.265 01:50:20.830

you had to form your own community.

01:50:20.830 01:50:24.010

air raid wards and things like that.

01:50:24.010 01:50:28.455

He was in charge of a medical supplies.

01:50:28.455 01:50:29.960

But because of his health.

01:50:29.960 01:50:33.245

he couldn't do so much so I took over that.

01:50:33.245 01:50:37.910

So. that's why I was able to stay outside. Nobody bothered me.

01:50:37.910 01:50:45.370

It wasn't frightening to be outside at that time?

01:50:45.370 01:50:50.215

No. You see you saw the trace of bullets.

01:50:50.215 01:50:52.570

The bullets that light up.

01:50:52.570 01:50:56.095

you saw those and you watched that.

01:50:56.095 01:50:58.840

It was frightening but it was that's what was happening.

01:50:58.840 01:51:07.600

You didn't. you didn't do a big deal out of it?

01:51:07.600 01:51:14.769

Not really. When we left Shanghai.

01:51:14.769 01:51:18.340

before we left. I advocated we sell

01:51:18.340 01:51:23.300

our house as a bomb proof house a bomb never hit it. it was a bombproof.

01:51:27.180 01:51:36.580

At that time. did you have any use from the other war because the war was over in Europe?

01:51:36.580 01:51:42.350

Yes. we knew that the war was over in Europe and we also started getting

01:51:42.350 01:51:49.260

slowly getting information of what happened.

01:51:49.310 01:51:52.700

Not specific just. general information.

01:51:52.700 01:51:56.870

But again. the Swiss. the Russians.

01:51:56.870 01:52:00.300

the Japanese who were winning the war.

01:52:00.300 01:52:05.270

they gave you. you learn to interpret some of this information.

01:52:05.400 01:52:09.030

I mean. nearly to the last day.

01:52:09.030 01:52:11.065

the Japanese were winning the war.

01:52:11.065 01:52:17.250

And you saw Japanese soldiers around the Ghetto.

01:52:17.250 01:52:20.080

they were going here and forth.

01:52:20.080 01:52:24.445

and you say that you are not afraid of them.

01:52:24.445 01:52:28.150

Well. you learn to live with it.

01:52:28.150 01:52:31.420

Not specific fear. you didn't go up and say hello to them.

01:52:31.420 01:52:33.720

You try to avoid them.

01:52:34.950 01:52:38.735

On the way from Hongkew to school.

01:52:38.735 01:52:44.385

most days there would be an air raid alarm during the morning.

01:52:44.385 01:52:48.110

So. that means that trains.

01:52:48.110 01:52:50.495

the trams. they wouldn't run.

01:52:50.495 01:52:53.725

no transportation. So you had to walk.

01:52:53.725 01:52:55.930

It's a long distance?

01:52:55.930 01:52:58.180

It was quite the distance.

01:52:58.180 01:53:00.370

It was quite a distance but.

01:53:00.370 01:53:01.390

Like half an hour or so?

01:53:01.390 01:53:03.600

At least that. But sometimes.

01:53:03.600 01:53:08.570

it took us an hour or more but we always made it in time for lunch.

01:53:10.710 01:53:18.080

Did you have an opportunity to buy some food outside the Ghetto

01:53:18.080 01:53:20.895

which was not available inside that

01:53:20.895 01:53:24.755

people asked you since you don't have a permit to go out?

01:53:24.755 01:53:28.290

No. No such request were ever made.

01:53:29.370 01:53:33.570

Anything that was sold outside of the Ghetto was

01:53:33.570 01:53:36.790

also available in the Ghetto to the extent.

01:53:36.790 01:53:38.960

Maybe it was more expensive in the Ghetto.

01:53:38.960 01:53:42.210

Well. to the extent that the Chinese were selling it.

01:53:42.210 01:53:45.330

Because they sold. on the street.

01:53:45.330 01:53:50.225

they've sold a lot of vegetables and things like that.

01:53:50.225 01:53:53.125

Seaweed and things. that kind of things.

01:53:53.125 01:53:56.235

And they also sold sweet potato.

01:53:56.235 01:54:00.495

They had ovens that they baked sweet potato in.

01:54:00.495 01:54:03.250

They sold it already baked.

01:54:03.250 01:54:05.930

Yes. already baked. Yes.

01:54:10.440 01:54:14.055

I think it's your nature because.

01:54:14.055 01:54:16.325

as you describe it.

01:54:16.325 01:54:21.530

nothing was too bad for you.

01:54:21.900 01:54:23.740

At the primer?

01:54:23.740 01:54:25.855

But it's not that it wasn't bad.

01:54:25.855 01:54:29.440

I think it's your character that makes it.

01:54:29.440 01:54:35.170

Very possible. But as an adult.

01:54:35.170 01:54:38.150

when I learnt about it.

01:54:38.230 01:54:45.115

the very fact that you didn't have a basis of comparison meant that was life.

01:54:45.115 01:54:49.130

That's the way it was. You accepted it.

01:54:49.850 01:54:55.010

You heard of stories of people who couldn't accept it.

01:54:57.000 01:55:00.680

people who died by their own hand.

01:55:00.680 01:55:03.320

I knew some of these people.

01:55:04.580 01:55:07.780

That was their problem.

01:55:07.960 01:55:11.520

We were together with my brother and I.

01:55:11.520 01:55:14.030

we were together with our parents.

01:55:14.030 01:55:19.260

and we were planning for worst things to happen.

01:55:19.260 01:55:21.050

As the war was coming to an end.

01:55:21.050 01:55:23.130

we didn't know what was.

01:55:24.090 01:55:30.310

Do you remember when they announced that the war is over?

01:55:30.310 01:55:30.910

Yes.

01:55:30.910 01:55:34.500

For you? I mean. because it was over before you knew hope.

01:55:34.500 01:55:41.115

Yes. The evidence of it was that you saw Japanese soldiers on the street.

01:55:41.115 01:55:44.520

but not with bayoneted guns.

01:55:45.070 01:55:49.130

Because under the international law.

01:55:49.130 01:55:51.455

they had to keep law and order.

01:55:51.455 01:55:54.810

but the Chinese took over very quickly.

01:55:55.760 01:55:58.840

Then the emphasis came on the Chinese ward.

01:55:58.840 01:56:02.460

Was there a [Foreign language] or something of Chiang Kai-shek

01:56:02.460 01:56:06.185

and his soldiers when they entered Shanghai?

01:56:06.185 01:56:12.535

No. Not specifically that I remember.

01:56:12.535 01:56:16.839

I suppose you were not as happy as the Chinese

01:56:16.839 01:56:20.680

there when Chiang Kai-shek entered Shanghai?

01:56:20.680 01:56:24.260

Well. his reputation wasn't the best.

01:56:24.260 01:56:29.430

And it was a fight between him and the communist.

01:56:30.260 01:56:32.500

Before we left Shanghai.

01:56:32.500 01:56:35.600

one of the things that was evident was that

01:56:35.600 01:56:40.810

every corner they would dig a hole. a foxhole.

01:56:41.420 01:56:46.565

Years later. I went out to a trip to Shanghai.

01:56:46.565 01:56:49.315

and those holes all had trees in them.

01:56:49.315 01:56:52.585

When we were living there. there were no trees.

01:56:52.585 01:56:56.610

So they put. at least put something to good use.

01:56:57.080 01:57:03.940

What did they think to do with those holes at the time?

01:57:03.940 01:57:12.595

A soldier would jump in there for protection. and use that as a basis of shooting.

01:57:12.595 01:57:14.705

It was deep enough that someone could?

01:57:14.705 01:57:19.510

Yes. It was deep enough that somebody could lean in there.

01:57:19.650 01:57:22.659

So the war is over.

01:57:22.659 01:57:24.725

and what about you?

01:57:24.725 01:57:32.490

The war is over. we find out what really happened in Europe. and after that.

01:57:32.490 01:57:35.440

That means that no going back to Germany.

01:57:35.440 01:57:38.095

There was no question about that at all.

01:57:38.095 01:57:42.109

and we were stateless.

01:57:42.180 01:57:48.545

and we were hoping to see if we could come to America.

01:57:48.545 01:57:52.135

My aunt who was living in New York.

01:57:52.135 01:57:56.910

in those days. in order to get permission to go to America.

01:57:56.910 01:57:58.215

you had to have a sponsor.

01:57:58.215 01:58:01.080

Yes. You need someone to guarantee you.

01:58:01.080 01:58:05.880

That's right. And she was worried that she and her husband didn't have

01:58:05.880 01:58:11.680

enough to make the guarantee.

01:58:11.680 01:58:14.270

She worked for a Jewish man.

01:58:14.270 01:58:18.105

and I guess he saw her being concerned.

01:58:18.105 01:58:20.575

asked what the problem was.

01:58:20.575 01:58:24.730

and she told him. and he says.

01:58:24.730 01:58:29.410

"Well. I'm a long lost cousin.

01:58:29.410 01:58:33.660

I'll help." And that's how eventually.

01:58:33.660 01:58:36.295

we got our visas.

01:58:36.295 01:58:40.420

But since you and your brother were in

01:58:40.420 01:58:45.340

[Foreign language] you said your father was connected to the Haganah.

01:58:45.340 01:58:47.530

But you. as youngsters.

01:58:47.530 01:58:54.470

you didn't try to pressure on your parents maybe to go to Palestine?

01:58:54.470 01:59:00.635

No. No. That was a decision that they were making. and my father would.

01:59:00.635 01:59:05.185

Without talking with you about it?

01:59:05.185 01:59:06.620

Yes.

01:59:07.980 01:59:12.310

So. you didn't try to convince them to do something?

01:59:12.310 01:59:16.310

No. You went where your parents went.

01:59:16.310 01:59:24.245

And for you. America is relatively easy because you already speak English.

01:59:24.245 01:59:26.590

When I came. we spoke English.

01:59:26.590 01:59:28.985

Although another English. but still it's English.

01:59:28.985 01:59:30.755

We spoke English.

01:59:30.755 01:59:32.790

You spoke the real English?

01:59:32.790 01:59:34.070

Not American.

01:59:34.070 01:59:38.890

And as you said before.

01:59:38.890 01:59:41.605

you arrived to America.

01:59:41.605 01:59:44.140

today. 70 years ago.

01:59:44.140 01:59:50.050

that means on the 16th of May. 1947.

01:59:50.050 01:59:51.010

That's correct.

01:59:51.010 01:59:52.435

To New York?

01:59:52.435 01:59:55.285

No. We came to San Francisco.

01:59:55.285 01:59:57.430

and we spent several weeks.

01:59:57.430 02:00:00.660

So. your aunt didn't wait for you because she was in New York?

02:00:00.660 02:00:02.640

She was in New York. She did wait.

02:00:02.640 02:00:05.180

We spent several weeks in San Francisco.

02:00:05.180 02:00:09.100

and then we took a train from San Francisco to New York.

02:00:09.100 02:00:14.230

across the country. and then we united in New York.

02:00:14.230 02:00:17.535

New York was too big for my parents.

02:00:17.535 02:00:20.665

and we didn't really stay there very long.

02:00:20.665 02:00:25.245

and then through the HIAS.

02:00:25.245 02:00:29.260

the Hebrew International Aid Society or the Joint.

02:00:29.260 02:00:32.230

we settled into Minnesota.

02:00:34.550 02:00:36.450

Minnesota is.

02:00:36.450 02:00:36.945

Yes.

02:00:36.945 02:00:37.915

Very cold.

02:00:37.915 02:00:41.455

Well. Minnesota has same weather as Berlin.

02:00:41.455 02:00:42.385

Really?

02:00:42.385 02:00:42.775

Yes.

02:00:42.775 02:00:46.360

Because it's the northern part of America.

02:00:46.360 02:00:50.080

Yes. So. very similar weather.

02:00:50.080 02:00:54.625

I thought that the winter there is terrible. in Minnesota?

02:00:54.625 02:00:56.065

No. You get used to it.

02:00:56.065 02:00:58.045

You were there in Minneapolis?

02:00:58.045 02:00:58.630

St. Paul.

02:00:58.630 02:01:00.685

Oh. St.Paul. okay. The other side of the river?

02:01:00.685 02:01:04.190

That's right. We settled in St. Paul.

02:01:04.800 02:01:06.880

and went to school there.

02:01:06.880 02:01:08.890

then went to university there.

02:01:08.890 02:01:14.890

You didn't feel any cultural shock when you arrived to America?

02:01:14.890 02:01:17.140

Well. things were different.

02:01:17.140 02:01:17.860

Although you spoke the language.

02:01:17.860 02:01:20.110

We spoke the language. so that was easier.

02:01:20.110 02:01:22.255

But in any other aspect.

02:01:22.255 02:01:25.465

it was completely different from what you knew.

02:01:25.465 02:01:28.415

Well. there weren't any Chinese around

02:01:28.415 02:01:32.375

There was no Chinese quarter in?

02:01:32.375 02:01:33.070

No.

02:01:33.070 02:01:35.435

In Minnesota. only in New York?

02:01:35.435 02:01:37.315

Well. San Francisco.

02:01:37.315 02:01:45.200

But we went to Chinatown in San Francisco. but couldn't communicate.

02:01:45.200 02:01:50.065

They spoke Cantonese and we had learned Shanghai and Mandarin.

02:01:50.065 02:01:54.560

Two strange languages. But no.

02:01:54.560 02:01:57.180

I acclimated very quickly

02:01:57.660 02:02:01.840

And you went to school there.

02:02:01.840 02:02:04.425

but what about your parents?

02:02:04.425 02:02:10.650

Well. they had to learn about America in order to become citizens.

02:02:15.510 02:02:18.310

What did they do there?

02:02:18.310 02:02:23.130

Well. my father went to work in a manufacturing place.

02:02:23.130 02:02:28.980

and my mother tried to make some connections to do her work.

02:02:29.480 02:02:37.050

At an early age. I went to work after school. and then continued.

02:02:37.050 02:02:41.010

Unfortunately. my father died early on.

02:02:42.960 02:02:48.495

And your mother had an independent business?

02:02:48.495 02:02:49.520

I'm sorry. what?

02:02:49.520 02:02:52.195

Your mother had an independent business?

02:02:52.195 02:02:54.835

Well. she did it from home then.

02:02:54.835 02:02:57.960

But she was the boss of herself?

02:02:57.960 02:02:58.140

Yes.

02:02:58.140 02:03:01.905

And she had help from. she had workers?

02:03:01.905 02:03:03.000

No. not anymore.

02:03:03.000 02:03:05.680

No. she did it all herself then.

02:03:05.690 02:03:10.670

But she was lucky that she got associated with people

02:03:10.670 02:03:15.720

who could afford to have things done.

02:03:16.000 02:03:19.960

She was the type of person when something didn't look good on you.

02:03:19.960 02:03:24.950

she tell you. Was not diplomatic.

02:03:25.440 02:03:29.860

Both you and your brother finished high school?

02:03:29.860 02:03:30.475

Yes.

02:03:30.475 02:03:32.215

In St.Paul?

02:03:32.215 02:03:32.785

Yes.

02:03:32.785 02:03:34.510

And then?

02:03:34.510 02:03:37.390

My brother went into the service.

02:03:37.390 02:03:39.365

into US Air Force.

02:03:39.365 02:03:44.300

and I went on to college. University of Minnesota.

02:03:47.430 02:03:50.725

And after that?

02:03:50.725 02:03:54.275

I went on to the University of Minnesota. Law School.

02:03:54.275 02:03:58.780

Then I became a lawyer and practiced law.

02:04:00.180 02:04:03.500

But you didn't stay in Minnesota?

02:04:03.500 02:04:05.540

I did for 20 years.

02:04:05.540 02:04:08.095

and then I moved to California.

02:04:08.095 02:04:10.785

You got married in Minnesota?

02:04:10.785 02:04:12.120

Yes. I did.

02:04:12.120 02:04:16.995

You said that your wife is a second cousin.

02:04:16.995 02:04:19.510

No. That wife was not.

02:04:19.510 02:04:22.550

I married a girl from Minnesota.

02:04:22.550 02:04:26.330

and we were married for 30 years and then divorced.

02:04:27.630 02:04:31.270

And you have how many children?

02:04:31.270 02:04:39.550

Two. One of them is Mosher. who lives here.

02:04:39.550 02:04:41.435

Who lives here in Israel?

02:04:41.435 02:04:44.485

And the other one that lives in Los Angeles.

02:04:44.485 02:04:48.120

Which is much closer to San Diego where you live.

02:04:48.120 02:04:50.790

Yes. Much closer.

02:04:51.150 02:04:54.620

Doesn't take 16 hours.

02:04:57.390 02:05:00.535

As far as I understand.

02:05:00.535 02:05:06.645

you became more religious over the years in America?

02:05:06.645 02:05:09.450

No. I don't think so.

02:05:09.450 02:05:12.205

We've always practiced Judaism.

02:05:12.205 02:05:16.750

all of the [Foreign language] and Chavez.

02:05:16.750 02:05:18.725

That was just part of life.

02:05:18.725 02:05:22.080

So. my son has become much more religious.

02:05:22.080 02:05:26.560

But I see. I don't know if it's like that in America.

02:05:26.560 02:05:32.035

but in Israel there is a symbolism to the [Foreign language] wearing.

02:05:32.035 02:05:34.180

Yes. I know. I realize that.

02:05:34.180 02:05:35.290

You are wearing a black one.

02:05:35.290 02:05:38.550

Yes. I realize that. I also have a grey one with me.

02:05:38.550 02:05:45.435

So. I'm well aware of the symbolism in Israel. but I'm Jewish.

02:05:45.435 02:05:50.135

I don't believe in all these distinctions.

02:05:50.135 02:05:56.275

I don't believe everything that the Haredi think.

02:05:56.275 02:06:00.225

is Judaism is really that prevalent anymore.

02:06:00.225 02:06:02.830

They don't want to assimilate.

02:06:02.830 02:06:05.780

I don't think that's right.

02:06:08.670 02:06:13.415

Even in San Diego I belong to an Orthodox Jew.

02:06:13.415 02:06:18.040

just because of the services is much more familiar.

02:06:18.330 02:06:23.905

Do you remember the first time that you felt American?

02:06:23.905 02:06:27.350

That you felt that America is home?

02:06:27.400 02:06:31.530

I think the day the day I got my citizenship.

02:06:31.530 02:06:36.775

The first time I had citizenship of a country of not being stateless.

02:06:36.775 02:06:38.865

How old were you at that time?

02:06:38.865 02:06:47.690

Nineteen. My parents got theirs some months before that and I got my own.

02:06:47.690 02:06:52.245

You didn't have to go to the army?

02:06:52.245 02:06:53.220

Well. no.

02:06:53.220 02:06:54.960

During the Vietnam War?

02:06:54.960 02:06:58.670

No. Actually. my day was Korea.

02:06:58.670 02:07:03.340

But because I was at school. I was deferred.

02:07:03.340 02:07:08.010

Then I got notice to take my army physical.

02:07:08.010 02:07:14.095

and my wife turned out to be pregnant with my eldest son.

02:07:14.095 02:07:17.040

so I was deferred again.

02:07:17.070 02:07:20.450

So. I never was in service.

02:07:20.640 02:07:26.375

So. the minute you became an American citizen.

02:07:26.375 02:07:29.600

you felt this is my country?

02:07:29.600 02:07:30.495

Yes.

02:07:30.495 02:07:34.595

Did you ever go to Germany again?

02:07:34.595 02:07:39.010

My wife and I in 1988.

02:07:39.010 02:07:40.120

You mean your current wife?

02:07:40.120 02:07:43.305

My current wife. In 1988.

02:07:43.305 02:07:45.400

we went to Germany.

02:07:45.400 02:07:49.560

It was very interesting to me

02:07:49.560 02:07:53.035

because I had heard stories about this place and that place.

02:07:53.035 02:08:00.075

It was almost 50 years after you left Germany as a little child?

02:08:00.075 02:08:01.625

It was 50 years later.

02:08:01.625 02:08:04.520

So it meant absolutely nothing to me.

02:08:04.520 02:08:07.065

I went to a city called Berlin.

02:08:07.065 02:08:09.235

very nice. big city.

02:08:09.235 02:08:12.820

There's a lot of interesting things. that's it.

02:08:12.820 02:08:16.970

Even if it's not familiar but because you speak

02:08:16.970 02:08:23.700

the language. and I assume that some of your parents culture was German.

02:08:23.700 02:08:27.060

didn't you feel very comfortable.

02:08:27.060 02:08:30.160

very homish in Germany?

02:08:30.160 02:08:33.590

Not at all. Not homish at all.

02:08:35.020 02:08:37.110

When I was in Germany.

02:08:37.110 02:08:40.610

I didn't let it be known that I speak German.

02:08:40.890 02:08:46.860

But you know when you enter the country. and they see that you were born in Germany.

02:08:46.860 02:08:48.680

automatically. they speak German to you?

02:08:48.680 02:08:50.500

Yes. they do and I look at them and say.

02:08:50.500 02:08:51.630

I'm sorry I don't understand.

02:08:51.630 02:08:53.680

Did you speak any English?

02:08:53.960 02:08:55.950

On purpose?

02:08:55.950 02:09:00.750

Yes. It makes it more interesting that way.

02:09:00.750 02:09:08.865

We went into East Berlin because my wife had a.

02:09:08.865 02:09:13.785

Eighty-eight. it was still East Berlin.

02:09:13.785 02:09:19.035

We went into East Berlin because we had both a cousin and a good friend there.

02:09:19.035 02:09:23.065

So we went through. and we had asked our friend if we can bring something.

02:09:23.065 02:09:27.145

and he said his wife likes to do Chinese cooking.

02:09:27.145 02:09:29.615

if we can bring some of these things.

02:09:29.615 02:09:32.620

So. we bought a big bottle like this of soy sauce.

02:09:32.620 02:09:36.260

As we go through the border my wife says.

02:09:36.260 02:09:38.130

"Please. don't fool around with them.

02:09:38.130 02:09:40.130

They don't have a sense of humor."

02:09:40.130 02:09:42.810

I show my passport it says.

02:09:42.810 02:09:44.150

I was born in Germany.

02:09:44.150 02:09:47.655

Gunther is a German name. or Swedish.

02:09:47.655 02:09:50.415

He starts talking to me and I look him in the face and said.

02:09:50.415 02:09:52.435

sorry. you speak any English?

02:09:52.435 02:09:54.110

I don't speak any of German.

02:09:54.110 02:09:57.705

They don't know whether I do or not.

02:09:57.705 02:10:02.645

He finally gave up on me and we went through the customs.

02:10:02.645 02:10:07.785

The custom lady. she wants to know what it is we're bringing.

02:10:07.785 02:10:11.035

She wants to know what's in the soy sauce.

02:10:11.035 02:10:13.150

It's a spiritus.

02:10:13.150 02:10:18.590

So I look her straight in the face and said. no. some cookin.

02:10:18.840 02:10:25.300

For cooking. She gave up on me.

02:10:25.300 02:10:28.775

That was the only time that you went to Germany?

02:10:28.775 02:10:36.230

No. I think two other times we went there.

02:10:36.230 02:10:37.895

In '88. I went.

02:10:37.895 02:10:41.890

We were going to be in Europe anyway and I went as

02:10:41.890 02:10:46.690

a guest of the Berlin government because they had that program.

02:10:46.690 02:10:50.530

But they started the program at the older people.

02:10:50.530 02:10:53.060

But as long as we were in Europe.

02:10:53.060 02:10:56.620

that we became. which was very nice.

02:10:56.710 02:11:01.470

Interesting city. I had heard of this place.

02:11:01.470 02:11:07.025

I had heard of that place but other than that.

02:11:07.025 02:11:10.530

no meaning at all.

02:11:10.530 02:11:15.205

So. now you live in San Diego.

02:11:15.205 02:11:21.835

I suppose you are no longer working as a lawyer?

02:11:21.835 02:11:24.440

I do some things.

02:11:24.540 02:11:27.010

I have an active life.

02:11:27.010 02:11:28.900

I still have an active license.

02:11:28.900 02:11:34.960

So. what I do is I sit as an arbitrator on financial matters.

02:11:34.960 02:11:38.825

so keep a little busy.

02:11:38.825 02:11:42.130

How many grandchildren do you have?

02:11:42.130 02:11:48.545

How many grandchildren? I have 24 grandchildren. great grandchildren.

02:11:48.545 02:11:50.995

I have 10 grandchildren.

02:11:50.995 02:11:56.160

24 great grandchildren. and number 25 underway.

02:11:56.160 02:11:59.605

I suppose that most of them are in Israel?

02:11:59.605 02:12:02.890

All of the great grandchildren are in Israel.

02:12:02.890 02:12:07.210

and eight out of the 10 grandchildren are in Israel.

02:12:07.910 02:12:13.425

There are four. two in Israel and the two in America who are not married yet.

02:12:13.425 02:12:16.030

That means that you are.

02:12:16.030 02:12:22.230

we can say on line coming to visit Israel?

02:12:22.230 02:12:26.410

Yeah. The first one.

02:12:26.410 02:12:31.730

the first great grandson had his [Foreign language] last week.

02:12:34.540 02:12:40.150

Is there anything else we did not talk about regarding the world?

02:12:40.150 02:12:44.530

I wanted to show you something interesting.

02:12:44.530 02:12:47.950

Pictures will do when we finished the interview.

02:12:47.950 02:12:50.560

but something that maybe we didn't say.

02:12:50.560 02:12:57.630

we didn't mention about the time in Germany and in Shanghai?

02:12:59.710 02:13:00.950

Can we?

02:13:00.950 02:13:01.390

No. you cannot.

02:13:01.390 02:13:03.885

Oh. we cannot. I need a Kleenex.

02:13:03.885 02:13:09.270

Oh. here. I've got one. Excuse me.

02:13:13.890 02:13:17.420

The thing that amazes me is that

02:13:17.420 02:13:24.450

suddenly the experience of Jews in Shanghai is of interest to people around the world.

02:13:25.200 02:13:27.220

There have been some movies

02:13:27.220 02:13:34.565

made none of which have so far shown the outlines of the Ghetto.

02:13:34.565 02:13:41.420

There are some places in Shanghai where evidence of the Ghetto still remains.

02:13:41.420 02:13:45.255

There are other places that have been eradicated.

02:13:45.255 02:13:50.440

but it was a place where I as a child grew up.

02:13:50.440 02:13:53.305

It shaped my life. I'm aware of that.

02:13:53.305 02:13:54.820

and I'm grateful for that.

02:13:54.820 02:13:59.580

and it was an interesting experience.

02:13:59.580 02:14:01.420

I have since. obviously.

02:14:01.420 02:14:04.585

as an adult learns that there's other ways of

02:14:04.585 02:14:09.220

experiencing life than the way I did. but I did.

02:14:09.600 02:14:12.785

I still have friends from those days.

02:14:12.785 02:14:14.660

We see each other regularly.

02:14:14.660 02:14:18.700

talked regularly. and life has gone on.

02:14:18.700 02:14:21.235

Okay. thank you very much.

02:14:21.235 02:14:30.610

Thank you. This picture

02:14:30.610 02:14:37.120

represents a photograph of my great grandparents.

02:14:37.120 02:14:41.895

and coincidentally. also my wife's great grandparents.

02:14:41.895 02:14:46.710

It is Simond Kinderman and his wife.

02:14:46.710 02:14:52.545

They were buried in [Foreign language] cemetery in Berlin.

02:14:52.545 02:14:59.070

My youngest grandson is named after Sherman Kinderman.

02:14:59.070 02:15:03.530

his name is Benjamin Sherman Kon.

02:15:09.660 02:15:17.660

This is a family picture that was taken in about 1928.

02:15:21.110 02:15:28.570

It was taken at the party for the [Foreign language] of this young man.

02:15:28.570 02:15:31.744

whose name was Sigebirth Kinderman.

02:15:31.744 02:15:40.340

who unfortunately in 1933 was one of the first Jews murdered by the Nazis in Berlin.

02:15:40.340 02:15:45.735

What is unusual about this picture is that for me.

02:15:45.735 02:15:51.890

it represents all of my great grandparents in one photograph.

02:15:51.890 02:15:53.160

and for my wife.

02:15:53.160 02:15:58.465

it represents part of her grandparents in the same photograph.

02:15:58.465 02:16:01.920

The families were friends with each other.

02:16:01.920 02:16:08.055

For instance. this is the father of the [Foreign language].

02:16:08.055 02:16:09.980

and this is the mother.

02:16:09.980 02:16:13.530

Here is his older sister.

02:16:13.530 02:16:16.550

who happens to be my grandmother.

02:16:17.330 02:16:19.850

Here is my grandfather.

02:16:19.850 02:16:22.010

the husband of the older sister.

02:16:22.010 02:16:31.675

Here is a picture of my paternal grandfather and my paternal grandmother.

02:16:31.675 02:16:38.490

A picture of my father and my mother who were not then yet married.

02:16:38.490 02:16:41.485

and a picture of my father's sister. my aunt.

02:16:41.485 02:16:45.665

who was also not then married and they were family friends.

02:16:45.665 02:16:54.040

This picture was displayed in the Jewish Museum in Berlin several years ago.

02:16:54.120 02:16:58.795

On this picture. you see some of the household help.

02:16:58.795 02:17:01.730

who I cannot identify.

02:17:08.710 02:17:13.575

This picture is the latest representation

02:17:13.575 02:17:18.710

of my eldest son's [Foreign language] and his family.

02:17:19.330 02:17:23.685

This was taken about 10 days ago on the occasion of

02:17:23.685 02:17:28.890

[Foreign language] of my eldest great grandson.

02:17:28.890 02:17:33.310

and it shows my wife and myself.

02:17:33.310 02:17:37.480

my son and daughter-in-law.

02:17:37.480 02:17:43.650

his eldest daughter who's son was the celebrant at that occasion.

02:17:43.650 02:17:46.215

and it shows all of the rest of the family.

02:17:46.215 02:17:51.300

God willing. it's represents 24 great grandchildren for us.

02:17:51.300 02:17:55.060

and eight grandchildren on this one photograph.

עדותו של גונטר קון יליד 1934 Berlin גרמניה על קורות המשפחה ב-Berlin, ב-Shanghai ובגטו Hongkew ילדות; עבודת האב בשיווק כובעים שייצר הסב; עבודת האם בתור תופרת עילית; החיים עד 1938; החלטת ההורים להגר; ניסיונות כושלים בהשגת ויזה לדרום אמריקה; החלטה לנסוע ל-Shanghai סין ללא צורך בוויזה; קבלת אישורי יציאה; ליל הבדולח; חיפוש אחר האב שהסתתר; עזיבת הבית; יציאה חפוזה ברכבת לאיטליה ב-18 בנובמבר 1938, הפלגה לסין במשך כחמישה שבועות; הגעה לרובע Hongkew ב-Shanghai; ריכוז הפליטים; עבודת האם בחייטות עילית לנשים; פתיחת סלון אופנה בידי האם; מעבר לרובע הצרפתי; לימודים באנגלית בבית ספר יהודי פרטי; החיים ללא מחסור; תחלואת האב; הכיבוש היפני בסוף 1941; חובת מעבר לגטו ב-Hongkew במאי 1943; קניית בית עם משפחה נוספת; מחסור ללא רעב; אישור יציאה מהגטו ללימודים; אישור יציאת האם לעבודה; הפצצות; סיום המלחמה בספטמבר 1945; כניסת הסינים; החיים ובכלל זה לימודים; קבלת אשרה לארצות הברית; הגעת המשפחה לארצות הברית במאי 1947; החיים בארצות הברית.