Testimony of Sela Shtovitska Uri Urlich, born in Frankfurt am Main, Germany, in 1930 regarding deportation to the Polish border and regarding his leaving nazi Germany in Kindertransport

מוסר העדות: אורי (אולריך) סלע סטוביצקה

מראיינת: תמי כץ

תאריכי הריאיון: 7 במאי 2012

מתמללת: אביבית קדרון

מקומות:

Frankfurt am Main

Hoek van Holland

Harwich

Waddesdon Buckinghamshire

London

CD Number 1

היום יום שני ט"ו באייר תשע"ב, 7 במאי 2012. אני, תמי כץ, מראיינת מטעם יד ושם את מר אורי סלע, יליד Frankfurt am Main, גרמניה 1930. מר סלע יספר לנו על ילדותו

ב-Frankfurt am Main בימי המשטר הנאצי החל מ-1933 ועל העברתו לאנגליה עם קבוצת ילדי ה-Kindertransport ב-1939; על חייו באנגליה בזמן המלחמה ולאחריה ועל עלייתו ארצה ב-1950 וקליטתו בארץ.

Q: Good Morning Uri.

A: Good Morning, Tammy.

Q.: Could you please tell us when and where you were born.

A.: I was born in Frankfurt am Main, Germany, on May 30th 1930.

Q.: What was your name when you were born?

A.: Ulrich Stobiecka. It's quite a difficult name. When I was a child, I had a problem pronouncing it. So when eventually I changed it, I was quite happy.

Q.: And do you know anything about the origin of the name?

A.: I know the origin is from Poland because it's my mother's name (we can discuss that point as well). And I just know it was the family name in Poland.

Q.: Your first memory of yourself, when you think of Uri, Ulrich (….) what is the first memory that comes into your mind? What do you see?

A.: Well, it's partly, I think, brought on by a photograph I have of myself in my parents' bed, I don't know how old I am, about four or five. I was sick that day. And of course as a child, made the most of it and stayed. And the picture helped me remember it basically.

Q.: You had an apartment?

A.: Yes. The home was an average apartment in Frankfurt am Main, I imagine.

Q.: Do you have memories of that apartment besides that specific memory?

A.: Yes, a few things, once again childish memories. I remember the lamp shade, it was one of these up turned like a stoned up turned bowl which used to be the fashion at that time. And for some reason I didn't like it then. And the memory of it at all – I don't like. It didn't give light, and it's dark. And of course all the furniture was….

Q.: It's your Madeleine Cookie Memoire.

A.: Yes.

On other hand, the bedroom which I also have this photograph of was very bright modern furniture, style light wood with an ash with a trimming with a darker trimming – I remembered very well and would be my taste to this day. That's the bedroom.

My own room (I had my own room) – I don't really remember whether I slept in a crib or I slept in a bunk bed – that I don't remember. I remember having the room. I remember listening to conversations which will come up later through half open door and the tension which went with these conversations is incidentally – one of my childhood memories.

Q.: Do you know where the apartment was located in Frankfurt am Main?

A.: Yes.

Q.: Was the apartment in the centre of town or in a suburb of town?

A.: No, pretty much the centre – I know, I even have a picture of it, I have gone back.

Q.: You have the address?

A.: I have the address. Solmsstrasse 7 And I visited it from the outside, I didn't go in.

Q.: Your family owned the apartment or it was rented?

A.: No.

At that time, I believe, all apartments were rented. Also my parents didn't have that kind of money, they were working people. But another thing I remember in the apartment is a gramophone, one of these wind-up gramophones which was used quite a lot – opera singing which my mother must have heard.

I only remember my mother in the flat. I don't remember my father. And I realize years later – why? That he was already arrested by the Gestapo in 1933, imprisoned on charges of….

Q.: O.K. We will get to that in more details in a minute.

A.: Yes. And therefore I just remember my mother. And I remember, funny enough, going along with my mother to offices where I had the impression she was looking for addresses of my father, right? How I came to the conclusion? I must have heard. And one of the amazing things is little snippets– children picking up while parents ignored them. Especially in my age children were ignored. They were looked after – yes, very well looked after, but they ignored. They weren't asked, they weren't told, that's it. They were told: "eat!" "do!" "come back!" "sleep!" "get up!" Unlike….

Q. No explanations…..

A.: And no explanations and no 'why' and 'what for' and so on, that's a new generation.

Q.: Do you remember the neighbourhood as well, or the city of Frankfurt am Main? Do you have child memories?

A.: Child memories – no.

I know now because I went back. It was juns the other side of the river – Main in Frankfurt, but literally it is the other side. And once again I took pictures of it. It's now a very 'with it' neighbourhood of pubs and so on, but I doubt if it was then.

Q.: As a child you have no recollection of the area itself – a park or anything that you used to go out.

A.: No. I remember, we weren't a religious family although my mother would have kept Kosher. Why do I remember that? I remember Pessach – Passover –bringing down Matzoth and bringing down special crockery..

Q.: So I want to ask about that in detail.

A.: O.K. fine.

Q.: So maybe tell us – you don't remember your father and you don't remember seeing him. But what can you tell us about him that you know now?

First of all, what was his name?

A.: His name was Gritzmann, Jonas Gritzmann.

Q.: Where was he born?

A.: He was born in Poland.

Q.: Do you know where in Poland?

A.: I will find out, but I can't recollect off hand unfortunately.

Q.: Do you know anything about his parents, his background?

A.: No. No. No.

Q.: Did he come from a Jewish Orthodox family?

A.: I think most of them were pretty Orthodox then, I know my mother because I knew some of the distant relatives which I met in Israel incidentally who are still Orthodox.

Q.: Do you know anything about your father's childhood?

A.: No. Nothing whatsoever.

Q.: Did he have a profession?

A.: Yes, he was a tailor, but in Germany he worked as a packer – for packing goods and so on, very (…).

Q.: Under what circumstances did he immigrate to Germany and when, do you know?

A.: He would have immigrated after the First World War with the mass immigration of Polish Jews. Ostjuden who came to Germany.

Q.: Did he have relatives or family in Germany?

A.: I have no….

Q.: You don’t know.

A.: I have no idea.

Q.: Do you know if he took a part in the First World War or you have no idea either?

A.: I have no idea.

What I do know is due to my wife's efforts. Only about ten years ago she found on the Internet, she looked, she didn’t accept that I had given up because I kind of grew up with the idea – I'm an only child. And I had this inkling that something happened to my father because I had gone along with my mother to offices.

Q.: So it was like a black hole.

A.: A black hole which I accepted because, you see, I was young enough and I accepted. I didn't know, I wouldn't have known that, but my wife is made of different stuff and she had to find out. I had a letter from what I call a distant relative of my mother who I knew in Germany and who I actually came on Aliya to Israel to. And she had written a note, a letter. In the letter it appeared where they got married. She had attended the wedding – by a Rabbi in a private house.

Q.: In Germany or in Poland?

A.: In Germany. In Germany.

Q.: So from what you know, they were both in Germany and they met in Germany.

A.: Yes. Yes.

I would even suspect that he worked in the same company, right. We will come back to her and where she worked.

Now, in this letter, it was to Germany, to the Restitution Actually –that she wrote all the details which were in German and I never really looked at them. And there it gave the address of where my mother had worked and she had earned well and so on and that she was married in the home of the owner of the factory. And that's how we got the name.

Q.: Luckily.

A.: Right.

Q.: Of your father.

A.: Of my father.

Q.: So you mean until then you hadn't even known his name?

A.: I didn't know his name. I knew Jonas.

Q.: Jonas.

But you didn’t know his surname.

A.: No. No. No.

So it then transpired that because they both were basically illegal in Germany….

Q.: Ostjuden, as you said.

A.: Yes. They kept away from the authorities.

Q,: They weren't registered in the authorities.

A.: No.

They were religious Jews, married by a Rabbi. In the meantime I heard that over and over again and that was that kind of thing.

Q.: Tell us some details about your mother. What was her name?

A.: Her name was Rochelle.

Q.: Rachel.

A.: Rachel Stobiecka.

Q.: Where was she from?

A.: And she was also from Poland. I have got it written down. That I know.

Q.: Do you know….?

A.: Yes. She has family who ran a tobacco business, making cigarettes, cigarettes were then made for individual wealthy people with their own emblem also. It was a small company. I have got a picture of my grandfather standing….

Q.: Do you know his name?

A.: Wolf. Wolf Stobieck.

Q.: Right, Stobiecka is for the women.

A.: Right, Stobiecka is for the woman and Stobieck for the man.

Q.: And do you know your grandmother's name?

A.: No, I don't know.

Q.: So they were manufacturing cigarettes.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Were they also Orthodox?

A.: Yes. He was literally Orthodox. You know, there was delusion of the Orthodoxy until it came to me with very little if anything.

Q.: And you know under what circumstances she came to Germany?

A.: Part of the family moved to Bayern also in cigarettes.

Q.: Did your mother move with her parents?

A.: No, she moved on her own.

I don't know about her parents. But she moved with this Eva who became Eva Weinberg who was a closest relative, who seem to be a friend and relative. You know, they joined forces. They evidently came to Germany together. They worked originally for the family in Bayern. And then as young people: A. They felt (this I heard lately) they felt exploited of course with the family. They worked, they worked hard, they didn't get enough money – normal story and set out on their own to Frankfurt am Main - both of them together.

Q.: So that's where she met your father and they got married.

A.: Yes.

Q.: And you think that perhaps they even worked together in the same company.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Was it a Jewish company, owned by Jews?

A.: Yes, also Polish Jews.

Q.: Polish Jews, also Ostjuden.

A.: Yes.

And now evidently my mother became very close to that family because not only were they married in the flat (I know the bedroom furniture, don't ask me how) – At the time they talked about it. My aunt – she brought a wedding present from the (….) from the owner of the factory.

The factory was trimming, making bed-sheets and so on. And that I remember going to with my mother and seeing long…

Q.: You were seeing how they were making products.

A.: Yes.

My mother headed the manufacture. She became a….and a long line of machines on either side with a trough in the middle where all the completed items ended up in the middle and then were taken. And as far as I know my father had packed them, I don't know. He didn't work in his profession.

Q.: So you were born in 1930.

A.: Yes.

Q.: At home what language did your mother speak to you, German?

A.: German, yes.

Q.: She must have been speaking Yiddish, right?

A.: I presume so, but I never ….

Q.: Did you know Yiddish?

A.: No. I heard it around.

Q.: I mean, did you know Yiddish as a child?

A.: No. If anything I heard, I heard German. And through German I picked up, I mean, not genuine Yiddish.

Q.: But as a child you spoke German.

A.: German, yes, yes. I went to school in German.

Q.: You don't have recollections of your father. But you said that your mother kept a Kosher home.

A.: Yes.

Q.: And you have some recollections of the Jewish holidays.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Do you have any recollections of Shishi-Shabbath Sabbath as well?

A.: I don't remember.

The main thing I remember that I was excited by is that in the kitchen were tall cupboards. And on top of the cupboards were special crockery which were brought down on Pessach. And that of course as a child exciting and all big round Matzoth.

Q.: Do you have recollections of the Seder?

A.: No. You see, and it's on that basis that I assume that she also kept Kosher.

Q.: As far as you know, besides that Eva, your parents didn't have any family relatives in Frankfurt am Main?

A.: No. I don't think so.

Q.: You don't think so.

A.: No.

Coming back to the religious…..I would go with my mother to the local Synagogue occasionally – Chaggim and so on.

Q.: Do you remember it?

A.: Yes, very clearly.

It was a very big Synagogue. Well, I have not got a picture of the Synagogue. It was of course burnt down and became a big concrete shelter.

Q.: In the Kristallnacht or later on?

A.: No, in the Kristallnacht, yes.

Q.: We will get to that.

A.: And we got there. There is a big concrete shelter which they built, and there is a big picture of what was there. I have also got that….

Q.: A picture of the Synagogue?

A.: Of the Synagogue.

And my wife and I went in, there is a…..

Q.: But you remember yourself as a little boy going with your mother.

A.: Yes. And going upstairs of course to the Ezrat Nashim.

And at the time of Simchat Tora I would go and of course I would miss out on the sweets because the sweets would be thrown down and I was…..

Q.: The sweets were thrown from the women's side.

A.: Yes. And I was…..So that's the kind.

Q.: And in Simchat Tora do you have a memory of a flag, a candle or anything?

A.: No. I have a memory of a big impressive Synagogue, which I then found really was.

Q.: A Sukkah in Sukkot? Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur?

A.: Yes, we would go.

Q.: Did you hear the Shofar blow and things like that?

A.: Yes. You know, vaguely.

Q.: So from an early age you were certainly aware of the fact that you ertr Jewish.

A.: Not only that, the surroundings. The surroundings made me aware.

Q.: The surroundings made you aware , but I mean from that point of view, you had an idea.

A. Yes, I knew Jewish ….I presume, tradition. Once again there were things picked up since which…..

Q.: Do you also have any memories of holidays such as Hanukah or Purim or not really from that age?

A.: Hanukah – yes because I got presents. Purim – I have only once again in an album a picture of my mother in Purim…..

Q.: In a costume?

A.: Yes.

So, you know….but it can be a mix. But I don’t remember dressing up, but I remember receiving presents – that's the kind of things I would always.

Q.: Did you go to a kindergarten before going to school?

A.: Yes. Yes, also…..

Q.: And when you were small, your mother was working….

A.: Yes.

Q.: Was anybody taking care of you at home?

A.: A kindergarten.

Q,: You went to a kindergarten.

A.: Yes.

Q.: And before you went to kindergarten, do you think your mother was at home with you?

A.: Yes. She also worked from home. Later on she only worked from home.

Q.: She was able to do it.

A.: Yes.

Q.: You said your parents were illegal immigrants, but they had a job.

A.: Yes.

Q.: What do you think was their economic situation, as far as you can figure out?

A.: It was actually quite good. And once again, I take my affidavit whatever you call it which my aunt wrote that she had a well-paid job; did very well and also by the things – I have a list later which reminds me of things she was sending abroad – had a few gold pieces and I mean nothing expensive but ….it wasn't a….It was lower-middle class. Also the housing where they lived in was a nice house.

Q.: When you were a child were you aware of the fact that your parents were Ostjuden?

A.: No. No.

Q.: Were you aware of the possibility that you had family in Poland?

A.: Yes.

Q.: Did anybody visit you or did your parents visit Poland before the war?

A.: I come back to my grandfather.

Q.: From your mother's side?

A.: From my mother's side.

When he died, she put up a photo of him in the bedroom. And he was one of these dark man, dark hair, dark hat.

Q.: With Peoth?

A.: With Peoth. And I was frightened of it. And she had to take it down. But I knew that I had a grandfather who died because of it. Otherwise I'm not even sure if I would. So I just wouldn't sleep by it. She had to take it down.

Apart from that, you mentioned a flat – I had a tremendous amount of toys. I was an only child and I was alone basically.

Q.: What kind of toys did you have in those days – did you have wooden toys?

A.: Yes. Punch and Judy Show, you know, with a proper wooden, with a few of the dolls. I had a pedal car which I couldn't pedal because of the tin, you know. So my mom had to pull it or push it. I had a slay in the snow. I was, as I say, quite well looked after – that apropos the…

Q.: But there wasn't a nanny or anything like that.

A.: No. No. No.

I had friends. Occasionally we had friends….

Q.: All Jewish or German?

A.: Jewish.

Q.: So do you know whether they were connected in any way to the Jewish community in Frankfurt am Main? Or it was mostly the friends from the Ostjuden – immigrants?

A.: It would have been because he would have worked with Ostjuden and the employer was Ostjuden – I can imagine, but I wouldn't know.

Q.: You don't know if they had any connection with the more established community. The Jewish community of Frankfurt am Main was a very well established community. It was the second Jewish community in size after Berlin.

A. I don't know. I know that occasionally…..

Q.: Did they have any support from the Jewish Community in any way?

A.: I don't think so. I don't think, as I say, they needed, I don't know. I have got no reference to anything like that.

Q.: I'm asking that also because you said that when you saw the picture of your grandfather, you were scared or frightened.

A.:Yes.

Q.: And that means you didn't really see many real Orthodox Jews.

A.: No, I didn't.

Q.: Although in Frankfurt am Main there were Orthodox Jews, there was an Orthodox Community.

A.: Yes.

She wasn't a part of that because (I will come to that later) when I first came across a group of Orthodox and it shocked me. It shocked me.

Q.: So their friends were Jewish immigrants.

A.: Yes. There was a working family, and I regret to this day that I don't know their name because, once again, my wife would have looked for them, what happened to them. Recollections – don't ask me how I came to the conclusion – that it was a mixed family. The man was non-Jewish, the wife was Jewish. And they had two or three children with whom I stayed over sometime, maybe at night when my mother went out.

Q.: Like a baby-sitter.

A.: Yes, but I went to them, they didn't come to us. I know I didn't like going to them because I didn't like the smell of their bed-clothes, you know, I remember to this day. It was a very unkind memory, but that's what I remember.

Now the children went to the same Jewish school. So they were a part of the Jewish Community.

Q.: So you went first to a kindergarten.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Was is a Jewish kindergarten?

A.: Yes. We also traced the kindergarten.

Q.: Do you know to which congregation the kindergarten belonged?

A.: No. No. I have no idea.

Q.: So it was a private kindergarten or it was a public kindergarten?

A.: I think it was private. I'm not sure how it was funded.

Q.: And then you went to a Jewish school.

A.: Yes. Yes It was basically the centre of Jewish schools in Frankfurt am Main.

What I remember of the kindergarten is that at lunch time we were made to sleep on bunk-beds. And once again – I count for a child's memory that I didn't sleep, I faint-sleep, I kind of….. O.K. seeing what was around me, anyone came, my eyes closed. So that's what I remember of the kindergarten. What I now know is what I saw because I had the address and we saw that.

Regarding the school – I came of age. I have a picture – first day in school which in Germany is very important..

Q.: In order to go to school you had to be seven or six?

A.: Six years old, I think, six.

Q.: You say the first day of school is very important.

A.: It is very important. You go with a bag, with a cone of treats. You go to a photo-studio to have pictures taken of you, as I say, which I have. So things like that you remember because of the picture.

Q.: It was a Jewish school….

A.: It was THE Jewish school in Frankfurt am Main.

Q.: Boys and girls together?

A.: No. No. No. It wasn't a religious school, but it was Philanthropin which is a well-known modern Jewish school and for Germanizing the children. There was of course also at least one religious school. But these were a curriculum to make you a good German citizen as well as a Jew, typically German there.

Q.: And the teachers were all Jewish?

A.: Yes. Yes.

Q. : We will get back to the school at the context of the Nazis. But right now from the chronological point of view that you are telling. Studies were in German of course.

A.: Yes.

Q.: With grades? Did you get a report card, you remember?

A.: I have not got. Don't forget I was...

Q.: Did you like going to school? Were you happy there?

A.: Yes, I think so because it gave me the only circle I had.

Q.: It gave you a social frame.

A.: A social frame, yes. A part from that I don't remember making friends although I know.

Q.: Was it close to your apartment?

A.: Yes.

Q.: You had to walk? You had to use public transportation? Would your mommy bring you to school? Were you independent?

A.: No.

I know she picked me up. So I presume she brought me. Why do I remember one and not the other? That's how it goes.

Q.: It was a Jewish German school. You learnt everything in German. There was a German curriculum. But were there any Jewish studies?

A.: There would have been, yes.

Q.: Do you remember prayers or Ivrit , Leshon Haodesh – Hebrew?

A.: No, I don't.

I'm sure at a later stage of…..No, Philanthropin was a well-known Jewish school.

Q.: But I'm asking from your recollections. Do you remember anything in school, like celebrating the Jewish Holidays in school?

A.: No.

I just remember the name of my teacher because it was a strange name …..Silberpfennig.

Q.: It was a man or a woman?

A.: A man.

Q.: A man.

A.: Yes. I think that all the teachers were men.

Q.: Was it strict?

A.: Yes.

Q.: Was there discipline?

A.: Yes.

Q.: Punishments and things like that?

A.: Not at my age, but I'm sure it was strict. It was German, I mean, it was, as I say, turning among other things Ostjuden into German Jews. But this is more how I see it today, at the time I didn't. One reads about the Philanthropin was a highly thought of school.

Q.: And at home you said that you have no recollections of your father and we will get to it. You said already that now you know that already in 1933 he was sent to a camp or to prison.

A.: Yes, we will come to that.

Q.: But growing up with your mother, was it something that you ever questioned her about? Did you ever ask: "Where is my father?" "Who is my father?"

A.: No.

Q.: You obviously saw other children who had a father.

A.: I didn't mix all that much, except – yes for this one family. But as I say, I just had total ….I was so…

Q.: Your mother never mentioned him, never said: "You have a daddy. He went some place." Was she telling you some kind of a story about him?

A.: No.

I say, I remember looking for him, we were dragging along.

Q.: She was looking for him.

A.: Yes. Yes.

Q.: But did she ever say anything about him?

A.: No.

Q.: Did she say why she is looking for him or who he was?

A.: No.

Q.: You said that she put a picture when your grandfather had died.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Did she put a picture of your father?

A.: Well, she had the wedding picture.

Q.: So you knew you had a father.

A.: Yes.

Q.: But you just didn't know where he was.

A.: And I accepted it.

Q.: And you accepted it.

A.: I accepted it. It seems very shallow, but for a four year old kid….

Q.: And you said you were very well taken care of.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Would you say that you were spoiled?

A.: I was spoiled.

Q.: Or there was also some distance discipline at home?

A.: Well, the only time I remember discipline (I will come to that) when I say, I was always a well-maintained little child, a loved child. Taken to a dentist at age six. I always attribute to the fact I'm not scared of a dentist to this day because I used to go and have dental appointments.

I had a lisp. So I was taken to a speech therapist, I remember. He told me to speak with the tongue on top of my which I thought was ridiculous. Any way, I lost the lisp. So I don't lisp today at least. But I mean I was taken care of. I wasn't just allowed to grow up.

Q.: Did she read stories to you in bed time or she had no time because she was a working woman?

A.: I don't remember bed time stories, no, I don't. As you say, she….

What I remember from home (I don't know it is the right phase to put it in) is people coming around in the evening – from work, I have no idea. And I from my bed room (….) hearing: "Oh, yesterday they left, they crossed the border to France…"

Q.: So they were talking about…..

A.: Tension, yes.

Q.: Political tension.

A.: It was only years later that I was able to piece together who I think they were talking about.

Q.: We will get to that in a minute.

A.: Yes.

So the tension was already in the house.

Q.: When you go to school, are there other activities after school, or in those years it was impossible already? I mean were there any hobbies or any kind of activities?

A.: No. I was playing at home by myself. I mean obviously I was a lonely little child. And to this day I can cope by myself.

Q.: You mentioned before that your mother had a gramophone, she liked operas.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Do you know whether she had time, money? Do you know whether she participated in any cultural activities in Frankfurt am Main – Did she go to the opera, to the cinema, to the theatre, to concerts?

A.: I went to the cinema with her.

Q.: Do you have any memories of the cinema?

A.: Yes, of course children's film.

Q.: What did you see in those days?

A.: I would see the little girl – Shirley Temple and so on – that I remember.

We also went to a swimming pool.

Q.: A public swimming pool?

A.: Yes, a swimming pool (it wasn't a swimming pool) on the river, on the Main – it had locks of like telegraph poles which marked out swimming areas. I presume that was still at the time when Jews could go to public swimming.

Q.: I think at that point there was already a Jewish area, that they were allowed to go only there.

A.: Yes. Yes, but we went. So that is an outing, I remember.

Q.: Was there also a radio at home or just a gramophone?

A.: You know what , I can't say, a gramophone I don't remember.

Q.: Were there newspapers at home? Did she read newspapers?

A.: Not that I remember. No. No.

Q.: Books?

A.: Books – yes, we bought them.

Q.: German literature or Yiddish such as Shalom Aleichem?

A.: To me a book was a book, I wouldn't have even….

Q.: No, I mean your mother – was she…..

A.: What I'm saying – I wouldn't have looked even. To me it would have been a book. All I knew was the Tanach. I have no idea. There wasn't a library like here, you know, but magazines, but not…..

Q.: Do you know, not at that time – you weren't born, if your parents were active politically in any way before the Nazis came to power? Do you know if they were affiliated with any Jewish, non-Jewish, Socialist, political or Jewish or even Zionist?

A.: Yes. She, my mother, belonged to the 'Blau Weiss'.

My father was evidently, and that had come out later, a Communist – whether he was a member or affiliated, but that was his downfall later on.

Q.: And do you know anything about her activity in the 'Blau Weiss'?

A.: No. No.

Q.: As a child did you hear the term 'Palestine', 'Eretz Israel'?

A.: Yes. Yes.

Q.: Where did you hear it – at school or from your mother?

A.: From my mother and from my aunt.

Q.: What did you know about Palestine these days?

A.: What I knew – that I would end up there eventually.

Q.: Did you know that as a child?

A.: I knew that and I will tell you why. The aunt who was unmarried – Eva – who worked in the Rothschild Old Age Home – she was the closest contact which my mother had. She got married and left in 1937, I think.

Q.: Where to?

A.: To Palestine via Italy.

I think they may have gotten married in Italy - Weinberg was her name – with a German Jew.

Q.: And they came to Palestine.

A.: And they came to Palestine.

Now, I remember the night they left for the railway station. The night they went to the railway station to take the train to the boat, I wanted to go to the railway station with them of course and I couldn't. So that was the scene. I remember being left behind, I presume, with someone, while they went to the railway station to go to Palestine.

Ever since then I would ask my mother: "When are we going to Eva to Palestine?"

Q.: So for you Palestine was Eva also.

A.: So Palestine was Eva? Yes.

Q.: Did you know anything about Palestine?

A.: Well, I would have done– yes, yes, yes.

Q.: And what did your mother answer you when you asked: "When are we going to Eva to Palestine?"

A.: "Yes, we would go." It was definitely planned, I'm sure.

Q.: Was it planned?

A.: Yes, of course.

Q.: Do you think she had a plan.

A.: She had a family, already a distant family, which I found out when I came here because Eva then introduced me to relatives in Tel Aviv.

Q.: Relatives from your mother side?

A.: From my mother's side – the Stobieckies who came early and….

Q.: They came from Poland?

A.: I don't know.

In the early thirties half of the 'Dan Bus Cooperative' were their drivers which was the elite at the time. So they came with money.

Q.: And what do you think retrospectively prevented your mother from doing the move? Was it a matter of time? Was it a matter of money?

A.: I presume it was having the certificate, right?

I have no idea to what extent….Eva and Hains– they came here with nothing.

Q.: But you don't know whether your mother already applied.

A.: No.

You know, what I'm saying – they came here without. They weren't able to help at that stage for sure.

Q.: Because at that point (we will get to it) the Germans, the Nazis were encouraging or pressing people to leave (….)

A.: Yes. Yes.

And now I'm sure that she would have gone because, as I say, it was to me obvious that we would go, as a child. Eva had gone. Where Eva was we would be.

Q.: So as a child you weren't really aware of the larger Jewish Community in Frankfurt am Main because it was a very special community with very famous people. Many famous Jews came from Frankfurt am Main including Martin Buber and (….).

A.: Yes. Of course.

Q.: That you probably learnt afterwards.

A.: Yes.

But they were Ostjuden. They were working people. They hadn't yet had German education. To them Goethe and some were distant.

Q.: Right. As far as you know were there relatives in other places in the world? Were there any family relatives who immigrated to the United States or to South America before the war?

A.: To the United States.

I assume they were a family of the Charedim actually in New York. And after the war I contacted them, purely getting contact. I was never enamored with the United States or to be a citizen or even to visit – strange enough. But I once wrote them and I kind of got back a letter. They were evidently afraid I wanted something from them and I had written.

Q.: Were they also from your mother's side?

A.: Yes. Yes. Yes. I have nothing on my father's side.

So I said O.K. and I wrote back: "I wanted nothing from you. I'm not interested in emigrating." That was still when I wrote, I think, from England.

Q.: Did it hurt then?

A.: Yes. So I left it , I said…

Q.: Knowing that you have relatives.

A.: Yes. Like I manage without my father, I'm evidently not all that plugged into the family.

Q.: Yes, but it must have been painful to be rejected in that way. .

A.: Yes, I think, you know…. And I cut contact, as simple as that, and didn't try again. And now I realize I wouldn't have had anything in common with them any way, you know, that's another thing. Chava still today looks for distant relatives – second and third generations. I say: "I'm not interested. I have nothing in common with them, whatsoever. They don't my past, my family's past, it's nothing."

Q.: It's nothing, but maybe on the other hand, after loosing all the family, sometimes you are kind of a little happy to find that there is someone.

A.: Yes. I meant a new family I don't know where. I contact, I lived together, it's….yes.

Q.: You were born in 1930.

A.: Yes.

Q.: In 1933 you are three years old. I don't assume you remember it, but in 1933 Hitler and the Nazis come to power.

In 1935 the Nuremberg Laws were already enacted. I think in 1936. the Olympic Games took place in Berlin.

A.: Yes, I remember.

Q.: The name Hitler and the term Nazi – were used when you were a little kid. Did you hear about Hitler and the Nazis? Were you aware of it?

A.: Yes, aware of it. I was very much aware of it because it penetrated into the streets. One of the things I remember which I didn't mention (which has nothing to do with the….) was a Zeppelin coming over Frankfurt am Main. It would come over with all (….) at that night. But I remember the demonstrations. I remember the flags….

Q.: The flags with the Swastika?

A.: Yes, because it was very powerful – these demonstrations.

Q.: Were there non-Jewish German neighbours In your building?

A.: There was A neighbour who I remember because he played the violin in the orchestra, I think, in the radio orchestra. And I as a child would make the movements of a bow and a….

Q.: Imitate him.

A.: Imitate him.

Q.: Did you see him playing? Did you use to listen to him?

A.: No. I don't know where I picked it up, one of the…..And I would take a toilet role as a violin, don't forget the proportion of a child, and I would play a violin and of course.

Q.: But were there no non-Jewish German children around you, you had no contact?

A.: I don't know. I had no contact.

Q.: So you went to a Jewish school, but that's later on, when you were six years old.

A.: Yes.

Q.: In the street you never had contact with the non-Jewish world? Were you exposed to their way of life, to their religion, their holidays, such as Christmas? Do you remember all that?

A.: No, I would have remembered it in shops and so on going….

Q.: You never played with non-Jewish German kids?

A.: No, not that I remember.

Q.: Did you personally ever hear anti-Semitic remarks like someone saying to you?

A.: No, much later.

Q.: I mean earlier.

A.: Not as a child, no.

Q.: So you started feeling anti-Semitism through the atmosphere in the street?

A.: Through the atmosphere in the streets: the whispering, there was already tension. Don’t forget in Germany – Nazi and Communist demonstrations and I was living.

Q.: There were laws.

A.: Yes. And I was living in pretty much the centre of the town and I would have been exposed to that. There was scrolling on the windows – I wouldn't have been able to read it, huge posters. I mean it was very powerful.

Q.: There was already an economic boycott, you felt that.

A.: Yes.

Q.: For instance, could you go to the grocery store? Where would your mother go shopping, do you remember?

A.: No. I don't.

I do remember when once again because she was exempted.

Q.: Do you remember entering the grocery, anything like that?

A.: No, I don't remember.

I do remember when the Jews had to hand in their personal fur coats and so on. She didn't because she was Polish.

Q.: She wasn't a citizen.

A.: She wasn't a citizen.

Q.: So she wasn't registered.

A.: She wasn't registered.

Q.: No one knew about that

A.: No one. The Germans being real legal minded. Poles weren't Germans Polish Jews were not wanted, but they were Poles, right? And that came out later.

Q.: We will talk about that.

A.: So she was exempted.

Q.: So no policeman or anyone that you remember came to the house at that point asking for…..

A.: No.

I remember one night the door because of that ….it was kind of a glass panel door – somebody came to the door. And once again the tension was my mother and I. And we were on the other side and she must have said something. And it was evidently a drunk. But the tension – I remember this man coming in or trying to get in or knocking.

Q.: But you said they didn't talk to children about things. Even then when tension was arising and the Nazis and the flags, did she ever discuss anything with you?

A.: Not that I remember.

Q.: Was she waning you or explaining? Did you understand why this is happening? Why do they have slogans against Jews? Why is it?

A.: Yes, I knew in my own way that we were an unwanted minority, you see.

Q.: Did you understand why you were unwanted?

A.: No. No. Of course not.

Q.: You were too small.

A.: I was too small, maybe not intelligent enough.

Q.: No. No. You were small.

A.: I didn't pick it up.

Q.: And you could feel her tension.

A.: I could feel tension all around, yes.

Q.: And as you said, in conversations.

A.: In conversations.

Q.: Did you encounter the youth movement, Hitlerjugend?

A.: Yes, you saw them….

Q.: You saw them?

A.: You saw them in the street.

Q.: You saw them and you were scared? You already saw people like S.A. on the street in a Nazi uniform. Were you scared as a child?

A.: Fascinated is more the word because it had a certain power to it.

Q.: Right.

A.: You know, you were out sided which, to some extent, attracted….attracted you to be a Nazi if I would be non-Jewish, that could also be, you know.

Q.: So you were fascinated as a boy.

A.: I was fascinated and I presume also frightened at times for sure. That came later at understanding what was happening.

Q.: So when you go to school, you are already six years old.

A.: Yes.

Q.: In school you felt protected or there was also a sense of tension in school? Or there it was like more isolated?

A.: Yes, it was isolated. It was a big school and it ran as is. And I understand that even on Kristallnacht it opened, it opened for studies.

Q.: So there were no talks between teachers again or between the kids?

A.: No.

Q.: You just went about your regular routine life.

A.: To the best of my knowledge.

Q.: You mentioned the Olympics in 1936. Do you remember the Olympics?

A. Yes. How do I remember? It had also a Jewish aspect of it.

Q.: Right.

A.: There was supposed to be something which can be traced that a javelin thrower was a Jewish woman who was accepted because she was a good javelin thrower. But it was talked about evidently in the Jewish Community because I knew about it and I didn't read it afterwards.

Q.: Do you remember her name?

A.: No, I don't, I just remember a javelin thrower. She was Jewish.

The whole business of Jews not being accepted – I saw through that angle.

Also there must have been excitement when Joe Louis bit Max Schmerling.

As a kid I picked that up.

Q.: Jesse Owens, you remember him- the black…..?

A.: I remember more Schmerling being bitten by Joe Louis. It was also black and white of course.

Q.: Did you have any sports activities in school?

A.: Yes.

Q.: You said you went ice-skating perhaps and things like that.

A.: That was already later.

Q.: Did you have other sports activities?

A.: Yes, we had basic…..

Q.: In school?

A.: In school, jumping over – gym.

Q.: And did you take part in any sports activity after school or in a Jewish Sports Association like Maccabi or Hakoach?

A.: No.No. No, because quite soon I went to the boarding school – Stiftung, whatever you want to call it.

Q.: Are you talking about I boarding school in Germany?

A.: In Frankfurt am Main, yes.

Q.: So tell us about that.

A.: O.K.

Q.: Which year are we talking about? Because we reached 1936 – the Olympic Games, the Nuremberg Laws….

A.: Yes. I started in school from home. And then evidently because of the tension and mother had to work and…..

Q.: Excuse me for interrupting – maybe it's time to tell us because I understand that happened in 1933 – about your father.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Maybe, tell us what happened to your father.

A.: To me it wasn't 1933, to me it was a few years ago when I found out.

Q.: When you found out what had happened.

A.: Yes.

Q.: So perhaps take aside and tell us what happened in the chronological order it was in 1933.

A.: Yes. Fine.

My father – the story I had – it must have been from my aunt or from my mother – that he was arrested at a communist demonstration.

Q.: Because not so much as being a Jew but as being a Communist, if I understand correctly.

A.: Yes.

He was arrested, that's what I understood. The details I now know, are slightly different. And as a foreigner, illegal immigrant, he was pushed back into Poland, was transported to Poland immediately.

Q.: To the border?

A.: To the border.

And the Poles then, who were no friendlier then to the Communists, arrested him and he disappeared. That's the story. There is as a basis to it, but the story that we found out, that Chava found out is that he was in a sanatorium having had TB (tuberculosis).

Q.: In Frankfurt am Main?

A.: In Frankfurt am Main.

And someone it wasn't quite clear whether he was a worker or another person, sent a note (I have a copy of it now) to the authorities that Jonas Gritzman – a Polish Jew is handing out propaganda for the Communist party.

Q.: And this is in 1933?

A.: In 1933.

Q.: In the sanatorium?

A.: Yes. Yes. So once again, I have got a copy, a little ticket like you have next a telephone company, signed "Heil Hitler" and so on.

On the basis of that little note he was picked up, put into (not prison) into a holding, into a….it wasn't a prison, into a holding cell.

Q.: Where they interrogate?

A.: Yes. Yes.

And held prior to the court case.

Q.: Tried.

A.: Tried to death.

CD Number 2

A.: Now I should say how we came to this. Maybe that should have been the first. As I say, Chava found the lead in the computer from the affidavit which my aunt (I keep on calling her aunt) Eva had. And we found that there was a file in the Hessen-Nassau Archives of him.

So we went to the Hessen-Nassau Archives and (….)

Q.: It the Hessen-Nassau Archives in Frankfurt am Main?

A.: Yes, in Wiesbaden actually.

We had to go there, went there. They received us very nice.

Q.: Are you talking about the file of the trial?

A.: Yes, the police file, the police file of the trial.

And after a few minutes we got this file which was then over seventy years old already, in perfect condition, everything in place including a copy of a letter he had written when he was arrested to the Jewish Welfare Board asking them to send a change of underwear and cigarettes that he smoked.

Q.: Did he have a lawyer?

A.: No.

Not only that, they didn't send the letter. When I got there, the letter was there with a stamp and address and a note in German that the letter was confiscated. It was an innocent letter, written in German. I could have read it, I could see what it was – nothing. Including in that file was this note hand-written, little note, as I say of this German who said that my father ….

Q.: He actually turned him in.

A.: Yes, of course for nothing.

It then had all the interrogation. It had all the details of my father.

Q.: Including a picture?

A.: No, I will come to that. Once again – very German, I think: height, hair, eyes, body type, everything– but a picture. And I couldn't understand that. I thought maybe it had fallen out of the file or….And I suspect because they photograph in prisons, he wasn't in prison.

Q.: There was no….

A.: He was in what they call a lockup. The lockup is next to the court. We saw it. We took a picture of that. It was a grim building, double bars on it. Once again, I have got a picture of it.

So as a result they had all the details but photographs, there wasn't. And they had all the details of the trial.

After eleven months the court found him innocent because the person who turned him in evidently had a record himself and wasn't reliable. And any way they weren't interested. They were interested in getting rid of him. And as a result he, a sick man don't forget with TB which wouldn't have gotten any better in a prison, for eleven months was instantly deported. That was the decision of the court that he be deported back to Poland.

We then weren't really able to trace – he evidently wasn't arrested in Poland, but went back to his village Magnevcevich or something of that name.

Q.: Do you know where in Poland this village was?

A.: No.

Q.: Was this village in Galicia?

A.: I don't know. Once again it's written down it that….

Q.: So you think he went back to his family.

A.: Yes. And we suspect he died there. We looked for records, but that we couldn't find.

So although he wasn't a direct Holocaust victim, actually he was.

Q.: He was, of course he was.

A.: Whatever….

Q.: You don't know…

A.: Yes. And it really….

Q.: When you went to the archives in Germany, what did you feel when you opened all these files after seventy years?

A.: That's difficult to answer – of course, anger, anger that here what happened, and they should keep a record of it very seriously and anger, funny enough, that the letter hadn't been sent. We were well treated, we were given a room with a photo machine for low payment, we could use we could copy the whole file. It wasn't a thick file. And my wife said: "Take the letter and leave a copy." And I said: "No. First of all they trusted us to give us a file. Second of all, it's mine, I don't have to steal the letter, that letter is by right mine." And I thought: No, I will apply for the letter. I also wrote and I said that to the Head of the Archives. And he said: "Write a letter to that affect." And he can’t take it out of the file, the Minister of Interior has to give the O.K. And I said: "Give me my letter and put a copy, by all means."

Q.: Did they do it eventually?

A.: Yes. I got registered mail. Once again – German-German registered mail saying: "Mr. Sella Herr Sella…." I had the letter and of course I have got it with the envelope, the frank envelope everything which hadn't been sent. And I felt vindicated that I got the letter the way it should be, for all the good it does to me. As I say, all the credits go to Chava, my wife.

Q.: When you were there did it open wounds emotionally?

A.: Yes, it opened. To me the whole period is anger and not understanding, not being able to comprehend in any way how people could go about the way they went about it.

Q.: Was it the closest point that you came to your father? Because before that you had no idea.

A.: Yes, of course. Of course.

Q.: But that aunt (whom you called aunt) Eva – she knew your father.

A.: Yes.

Q.: And you saw her after the war.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Could she tell you a little bit more about his personality? Did you learn about who the man was?

A.: Once again, she told me indirectly, she would always say: "You dress warm." She would say: "Your father had a weak chest, you have got a weak chest…." And only in that way, we didn’t discuss, also I didn't ask. At the time everything was very raw. People here, for instance, I think felt that they should have done more to get out relatives.

Q.: So you think there was a guilt feeling there?

A.: Most probably. Most probably.

Q.: But out of the war context didn't she tell you more who your father was?

A.: No. No. And I think I wanted to keep it in. I didn't ask.

Q.: So you think that your memories of you dragging, schlepping with your mother – you remember she was looking for your father. It was during the time that he was held in that cell before the trial.

A.: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Q.: And you had no idea if she had any chance of meeting him or seeing him during that time.

A.: I don't think so because he also didn't make contact because it would have affected her and me.

Q.: Right not to turn you in as illegal citizens and all that.

A.: Yes. Yes.

Q.: So he had to protect.

A.: That's what I suspect.

Q.: That's why there were no letters.

A.: That's why he wrote to the community.

Q.: That explains that.

A.: Yes.

He felt very vulnerable once. I presume at some stage we were O.K., but when the Nazis came by….

Q.: She also had to be very careful with that.

A.: Yes. Yes, although she worked and….

Q.: No, I mean she had to be careful of being exposed while he is in prison and….

A.: Yes.

And I appeared (which comes out later) also as Polish. German Law to this day is according to the citizenship of the father. In my case both were Poles, so I'm Polish.

Q.: You are not German.

A.: Right.

Q.: So coming back to you, we have spoken of 1936 – 1937. At a certain point you are sent to a boarding school.

A.: Yes.

Q.: In Frankfurt am Main?

A.: In Frankfurt am Main.

Q.: Was it a Jewish boarding school?

A.: Yes very much so.

Q.: What was this school? Why is there a change now?

A.: Because, I presume, my mother couldn't manage any more. And the boarding school was a small school which may have originally been an orphanage. But it was now made up of kids who had come from outside of Frankfurt am Main, from villages where they were in danger. All the kids were more like me and others came from Frankfurt am Main where the family conditions where such that they couldn't….They weren't orphans. They later became orphans, but that was in England. They were all from Wiesbaden, (We were talking about Wiesbaden) or from areas outside where the children couldn't go to school any more. .

Q.: So the boarding school was run by the Jewish Community of Frankfurt am Main?

A.: Yes. It was Jewish, yes.

Q.: Not Orthodox again.

A.: No. No. No…..

Q.: And what was the setting- was it a building?

A.: It was a lovely modern Bauhaus building which had been left by a family Flersheim – Sichel these two families who left this, as I say, most probably originally because we didn't study in the school. We lived in the school, ate in the school, but studied in the Philanthropin. So it was a shelter.

Q.: So you lived there and you went to school in the same school.

A.: To the same school.

Q.: From that point there wasn't a change in class, teachers….

A.: No.

Q.: It was just that you left home.

A.: I left home.

Q.: How did you feel about this change? Did it undermine your feeling?

A.: No. A. I saw my mother regularly.

Q.: Did she come to visit you or you came home?

A.: Yes.

I would come home. She would come to visit. She would come to school.

Q.: So it wasn't that all of a sudden you left, deserted.

A.: No.

Of course all of a sudden I had company of other boys, only boys, accept for the….

Q.: Was it good for you to be with other children?

A.: Yes. Of course. Of course.

Q.: Were you homesick?

A.: I must have been homesick at times, but basically I remember being in a group and also most probably more secure because the tension was rising all the time, you know.

Q.: Now, I want to ask you another question – maybe you know maybe you found out . You spoke about those relatives who had gone to Palestine before the war.

A.: Yes.

Q.: And you said you assume that your mother was planning to do that move as well.

We know of the Institution of Aliyat Hanoar that began in Germany even before the war, when the Nazis came to power – Recha Freier, Henrietta Szold.

Do you know, by any chance, if your mother considered sending you to Palestine with Aliyat Hanoar or you were too young to go that way?

A.: I would have been too young. And she found a save haven for me – I don't know through the Philanthropin, I don't know how the connection was made.

Q.: While you were in Germany, did you hear about Aliyat Hanoar? Were you aware of that possibility as a child?

A.: No. No.

Q.: Did you have friends who went there?

A.: No.

My circle was very limited. And now it became far less limited. School - wasn't a huge school thirty…..The setting was a beautiful setting, really modern. As I say, we planted trees along the edge which I then it was the first tree I planted, ever since I have been planting including the big Dekkalim in front of the house.

And we went back and true enough they are still there - Cypress which each kid planted, I presume.

Q.: And the place was never attacked by Nazis or Hitlerjugend? It was a Jewish Institute.

A.: It was in a good area, I think. And of course come Kristallnacht.

Q.: O.K. So the next thing that you remember is the Kristallnacht or were there other events before Kristallnacht?

A.: There were other events before Kristallnacht. Because we went to school – these groups, to the Philanthropin and we had to go through like an avenue.

Q.: You walked?

A.: We walked, groups of kids. And the kids, local kids were waiting for us to harass us, steal our cups. So the smaller kids would go with bigger kids, but it was….

Q.: Were they also throwing stones at you?

A.: No, I don't remember.

Q.: Was there also physical violence – were they beating you in any way?

A.: Well, they were threatening us, I think. I don't think, I don't remember any case….

Q.: Were you scared?

A.: Yes. Of course.

Q.: It was a daily thing that you had to walk through it.

A.: Yes.

Q.: How far was it in terms of the walk – was it a long walk?

A.: Not particularly long, but I mean, it was a walk for a kid.

Q.: Were there adults walking with you?

A.: No, there were bigger kids, kids two or three years older –fourteen years old, you know.

Q.: Nobody was accompanying you – teacher or….

A.: No. No. The brown gauntlet, you know.

But several times the police came into the building looking for weapons evidently. And some of the older kids had a knife, a knife I heard of later, and they put it down a drainage pipe, so it wouldn't be found. And of course why do I know? Because afterwards teachers called us together: "Under no circumstances put….everyone would be in danger…." and so and so forth.

Q.: They were warning you.

A.: They were warning us, yes, very strictly warning.

Come the Kristallnacht. There were stones thrown trough windows and we were kept back. And once again there was tension.

Q.: What did they say?

A.: Say – flight for your life – I don't know, but…

Q.: At that place Shishi-Shabbat wasn't celebrated like all.

A.: Yes, Chaggim and so on were celebrated, yes.

Q.: Do you have memories of that institutiion?

A.: Yes. Yes, that – yes.

Q.: Songs also like Hebrew songs?

A.: Yes, there was Kabbalat Shabbat, Jewish…..

Q.: More than you had at home in that sense.

A.: Yes. Yes.

We didn't go to Synagogue from there, but that was a modern way of celebrating.

Q.: There was.

A.: Yes, it was once again…

Q.: Did you learn about Palestine?

A.: No.

Q.: That wasn't a Zionist school, so to speak.

A.: No, I don't remember that at all, but for me it was still the final address.

Q.: Formerly I asked you about Hitler and the Nazis and you said that when you were in the street, you could feel the tension.

A.: Yes.

Q.: On one hand you were fascinated at the figure of Hitler

I mean, you don't remember listening to Hitler's speeches?

A.: Yes. Of course.

Q.: Were you also fascinated by him or was there something scary?

A.: No, he was scary. I mean, even the fascination was scary. I mean, I could be fascinated and scared, it's not a….But I mean I'm sure you know, it dominated everything, you know, like the Catholic religion.

You would get up and see his face. You would hear the voice in the background. You would go out – everything plastered with huge-huge…..

Q.: Right. And with all this propaganda going around you felt you had a home? How did it affect your own sense of identity – you felt you had pride or you were apologizing or hating the fact that you are Jewish?

A.: You wouldn't go around saying: "I'm Jewish."

Q.: Of course.

A.: If you could bluff your way through, you would have done, but I mean.

Q. You don't have a typical Jewish look.

A.: No.

Q.: You have blue eyes.

A.: I'm very small and short, I don't know.

Q.: I mean, you hear all this propaganda and what they are saying about the Jews and you are a little boy.

Does it create a conflict of your identity?

A.: Yes. Of course. You feel a part of an unwanted minority as a kid who wants to belong and you don't belong obviously. There was a very important incident I had which we missed out because kind….

I had a memory over years which I didn't know if it had been a dream or it was real. And I went around and I wouldn't tell the story. I would mention it here and there and I would always say: "I don't know if it's a memory or it's real." And it was of me going into a little alley, into a play ground and being chased by kids on bike until I fell over. And as a kid I was thin and I had a little bone sticking out here. And I wondered whether that was from that I had broken something. It was only when we went to Germany with….And I drew a place which, I say, there was a big building, little (…), a gate. And I have got a very good pictorial memory, which I come back to not so much….

And we go to an address which we found, which my father had given as a friend who could guarantee his honesty. And we go to this house which in on the corner. And as we go, I say: "This is the…."

Q.: That you had in your dream or…

A.: Yes.

Q.: What you thought was it.

A.: "This is it." And I explained it before. It wasn't something that I could then make up.

Now here I speculate that they were friends of my parents. We went there. It was a nice day, closed area. My mother said….that was the news, maybe they were talking politics, I don't know: "Play! Ully, go and play."

The place turned out afterwards or maybe then to have been the headquarters of Nazi youth. And moreover later on, the gymnasium of the school was used as the store-house for all the furniture that they confiscated and had been auctioned off to the local people. So I knew exactly what was happening.

One thing I must say – in the hall of the school there were pictures and explanations and also a kind of a memorial stone in front saying: "The Nazi criminals." I mean, they used…. There I have to give credit – they tried to educate and to make up. O.K., much more – they can't do. And it had all the story of the school. It didn't say that I had been run over by kids.

So all of a sudden, once again seventy years later or more I realized that dream wasn't a dream, it was based on reality.

So talk about being Jewish and feeling….I mean this was it.

Q.: Right, as if it had already been built in you. You grew up during that period.

A.: Yes. Of course.

Q.: You have no memories of something different actually because you were only three years old.

A.: No. No. Exactly.

I have memories without a father being in the house. So I had a memory of that.

Q.: So coming to the Kristallnacht, we have to begin with the events before that because before that, you know, there was the famous event in which the Nazis rounded up the Ostjuden….

A.: Yes. I will come to that as well.

Q.: Why don't you tell us about that.

A.: I said what happened in the school. One morning two policemen come to school.

Q.: We are talking about the time before the Kristallnacht, just to put it into the right context.

A.: Yes, it was.

And ask to take little Ully to the railway station.

Q.: Only you?

A.: Yes.

So the teacher even therr "You can't do it." My mother was in hospital.

Q.: Why? What happened?

A.: I think she also contracted TB. It's also something mentioned in this affidavit that he passed on to my mother, she thinks.

Q.: Tuberculosis?

A.: Tuberculosis.

Q.: So the two policemen come and want to take you away.

A.: Yes.

So he says: "You have to inform his mother…." But she evidently wasn't on the list.

Q.: Because she was in the hospital or she somehow managed to evade that?

A.: I don't know. I have no idea. I have no idea.

Q.: We are talking about the list that they actually expelledl Jews to the Polish border, Zbaszyn.

A.: Yes. Yes. Yes, I was part of that and it had a big affect on me.

So my mother came out of hospital. She must have been already in the stay. I had visited her. I remember seeing her through a glass panel.

Q.: She was isolated.

A.: Yes, because she contagious disease.

Anyway, she came out ….

Q.: Excuse me, the police took you….?

A.: No. They left me.

Q.: They left you.

A..: Yes.

Q.: Because they said they have to inform your mother first.

A.: Yes.

Q.: She was….

A.: In the house.

And they accepted that. The police at the time weren't considered so bad even to that extent that in the school they said if you had problems going to school, go to a policeman.

Q.: It wasn't the Gestapo yet.

A.: No. They relied on the police. The police….I presume it depended which policeman you….

Q.: So the police left you.

A.: Yes.

So my mother came the following day, took me home, dressed me with a double set of clothing because we were only allowed to take what we could carry. And two sets of clothing is two sets….

Q.: She was preparing for….

A.: In order to go to the train station to be deported to Poland.

And we went to the train. And she dragged along a huge trunk which later on I received in England and which had been used, I had remembered at home, for pieces of material because she was working from home, making clothes like pajamas' and so on.

Q.: She was sowing.

A.: Yes, for immigrants.

And she kept the material in. She worked from home because of course the people had…You see, here I jump bit – what I heard (I will come back to it maybe).

Q.: Was the factory closed?

A.: It was taken over by …Aryanization.

And maybe she worked a little after that, but then she started working from home for immigrants, making clothes. It was an income.

Q.: Sowing.

A.: Yes, sowing.

And that she must have emptied out. And how did she manage it? She was a small woman herself.

Q.: Yes, it must have been very-very tough times for her – her husband being prison and she has no work. .

A.: Yes. It was terrible and I felt it. Then I was sensitive enough.

So we went to the railway station. And I remember the journey was in normal second class carriages, not the horrible way which was to follow, and a policeman at the end of each carriage, a policeman.

Ended up at the Polish border. And here all night – it was a station with a tunnel leading between the Polish border, the German border and…

And all I remember.

Q.: The Germans didn't want you or the Poles didn't want you?

A.: The Poles.

Being shoved all night – little kid. And that's where the first time I saw really the Chareddim.

Q.: The Orthodox Jews.

A.: Very Orthodox Jews with Peot.

Q.: Ostjuden?

A.: Ostjuden, they first….

Q.: They were expelled.

A.: Yes. Yes.

Q.: Where you scared of them?

A.: Maybe not like the picture. I was ashamed of them. I changed my mind later and I will tell you why. Here they were selling goods. They had these, around their necks, the little tables. Shoelaces – I don't know what they were selling. They were making a living at the last moment, and it took me many years to accept that. And basically the little I picked up of German propaganda it was here. The caricatures I picked up enough ….I didn't read the paper, you couldn't but tell it even as a child, I presume. I will come back to this phenomenon.

And all night we were shoved. And I as a kid, didn't know 'to' 'from'.

Q.: Back and forth?

A.: Yes back and forth. They wouldn't accept….Loudspeakers telling you: "Go this way!" "Go that way!" What was the idea?

Q.: And how was your mother handling the situation?

A.: Well, she evidently handled it. But there was one of the just, a young man who in every move would turn up and help her with the suitcase. To me he was one of the just I have ever….It only occurred once again many things later, I realized that was an older boy also from the Stiftung whom I didn't know by the name of Horn. He wrote about the (he didn’t write about the suitcase about being on this train. So it could possibly be have been him – whoever it was, right - full gratitude and admiration goes out.

I remember they being of course frightened as the 'to….to….and fro…' and feeling what a burden I was, you know.

Q.: Were you crying?

A.: I don't know. I don't know. All I know is….maybe not even because I was aware of the situation. And I always say one of the things I couldn't take….

Q.: You were eight years old.

A.: I was eight years old, seven years old. What was the date?

Q.: 1938.

A.: 1938 – I was between seven and eight.

I remember vividly you have to be self-contained, you can't take on….

Q.: You have to behave.

A.: Not that you have to behave…. You can’t be like your mother to have a burden like that on you. I mean, it's rationalized, but I remember this Somewhere along the line I fell asleep and put on the train going back and then head the story that at some stage the Germans came to an agreement. The Poles wouldn't let them in, the Germans wouldn't let them back, that whoever wanted to go whichever direction they want to go, they could go.

So some went on to Poland where they had family and so on. My mother who had a flat and even work, I mean, from home decided evidently to go back.

Q.: Because afterwards there were in Zbaszyn some who just lived in a camp on the border. So they had to deal with them.

A.: Yes. So she made her way…

Now we couldn't get into the flat because the flat had been sealed.

Q.: Do you remember your landlord, your landlady?

A.: No. No.

Q.: Do you know anything about them?

A.: No. No.

But I remember the first night we came back, we slept in some huge dormitory.

Q.: Of the Jewish Community?

A.: It must have been the Jewish Community.

Q.: It must have been a pretty traumatic experience.

A.: Frightening. Yes. I put that down. I don't look for traumatic incidents. I felt that was a very….which, I make a drama out of it to this day that that was the most traumatic period. And it was only one night, but it was enough. And I can imagine a little kid doesn't see where he is going because he is surrounded, looking at other people back side; it's all being shoved one way, being shoved another way, so...And then when you end up, you end up in some big dormitory.

On the following day in the flat everything was all right and now I went back to school.

I had another little fallout that when the police took me and I then left, I was a big hero. That was still the fun part of it. So I gave all my toys to my friends in the school.

And I came back....

Q.: It's interesting and surprising to hear that you are the boy who was taken from that entire school because there were other refugees there.

A.: No. I'm saying that – Polish. Evidently there were many Polish. The one I told you who was so much older than I – I wouldn't most probably known although there were about only thirty kids there.

Q.: So did they give you back your toys?

A.: This was... So .here I am wanting my toys back. I can only imagine, I don't remember, this is a....So I'm sure I got them back. But a little....a side what….The fallout of a serious incident....yes.

It was then that one day in school, I wasn't inthere very long, I was one day at school, the children of this family whose names I don't remember, I mean that's really-really bad, but I just don't, don't know their names, told me: "Oh, your mother is in our flat every night. She is crying – should she send you to England or shouldn't she." That's how I knew I was going to England. As I say, kids weren't consulted.

Q.: We have to go back to the Kristallnacht because immediately after this incident, there was the Kristallnacht. It was the result of Herschel Grynszpan's assassination of Vom Rath

A.: Yes. Yes. Exactly.

Q.: In fact, I think, Herschel Grynspan's family was in Frankfurt am Main.

A.: Could be.

Q.: Yes. I think he even studied there in a Yeshiva. He was a student.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Did you know of Herschel Grynazpan's family?

A.: No. I knew of the incident.

As I mentioned, in the Kristallnacht – the school we were kind in the back of the building while in the front we heard the Nazis chanting away, throwing stones through the glass in the front. And we kept quiet.

Q.: Afterwards did you hear what had happened in Frankfurt am Main and all over Germany?

A.: Yes. Of course.

Q.: As children, I mean.

A.: Yes, we heard that. Once again, I mean, ask me how, I don't know. I mean we must have heard radio, but we didn't see it personally. And of course there was no television. And news if you get any on film, it would be in the cinema, in newsreels. I think it got around. We saw, pictures, papers, I presume.

Q.: In stores, everywhere….

A.: We were fully aware….

Q.: Do you remember at that point when you felt 'fear for your life'? Was it that deep that you thought – I'm in danger or as a kid you don't feel that way?

A.: No. I don't think you feel that way, you don't. Life goes on, you may feel being hurt, you know, I mean we don't think of death at all, I don't think, I mean….

Q.: Do you know of Jews who committed suicide?

A.: Adults?

Q.: Right, of adults who committed suicide.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Is it something that you knew about when you were children? Was there anybody you knew that committed suicide?

A.: No. I heard, once again, adults speaking about it. I did hear it.

Q.: So you did heard about it.

A.: Yes. Yes, as kids you hear a lot. And the less they take notice of you, the more you hear, don't forget.

Q.: You said that you also heard while being in the apartment talks about: "This one living here." And: "This one hiding…."

A.: Yes, I heard that and it also had an affect because I heard they crossed over in France. I had the time, I had no idea who it was. When I did the research, I said: I wonder of this wasn't the owner of the…..

And we looked and true enough we…..

Q.: Are you talking about the owner of the factory where your parents worked?

A.: The owner of the factory, yes, yes.

If it wasn't them and true enough, we looked through Yad Vashem….

Q.: They fled?

A.: They fled. They were sent to Auschwitz.

Q.: They fled to France and were sent from France to Auschwitz.

A.: Exactly. And that's how I traced them.

But the mother and child (I know about the father there) the child survived. And it was she who had handed in the Edut.

Q.: Is she living in Israel?

A.: She is living in Bnei Brak.

Q.: Did you make contact.

A.: The moment we heard it, literally in the moment, "We ggt into the car and we go to this address which she had given. Until we found Bnei Brak, it's another city which I….

Q.: Was she an Orthodox woman?

A.: She must have been, yes, which once again leads me that all of them were Orthodox.

And I go to the flat, till I find it and I knock on the door and no one answers and the neighbour answers. And I say: "Where is….?" (her name). And she had had a married name.

Q.: Do you remember the name?

A.: Once again, all is written down. I should remember it, but I have a bad memory for names.

Q.: Is she older than you?

A.: Yes. Yes. She is much older.

Q.: She is much older. So she probably remembers you.

A.: Yes.

And Chava said: "Oh, you have to go. She would have been at their wedding," because it was in her flat. And as a teen-ager she would remember.

We go there. Anyway eventually a Yeshiva Bocher opens the door and he says: "Oh, no I rent the flat. The lady has died." A few years, not that many years.

Q.: She passed away.

A.: She passed away.

Q.: So you didn't have a chance to meet her.

A.: No. But I followed up and he gave me the address of her daughter. It's already a grandchild. And I found out, I said what it was all about. She said her memory isn't clear any more about it. She knows they had a factory. I mean I got the right. She has a brother also living in South America somewhere. She should speak on the phone to him, she will ask him. I mean she was helpful. But he didn't know. All they knew is the factory and the name because the mother would have….all too late but interesting.

And once again I put two and two together seventy years later, right.

Q.: So after the Kristallnacht you said you heard someone was saying that your mother was looking into sending you to England.

A.: Yes she was debating whether yes or no. And that also of course gave me the feeling – it wasn't just an easy decision because many of the children in the Kindertransport felt they had been abandoned, right?

Q.: They felt their parents were getting rid of them.

A.: Their parents sent them, you know. And even if afterwards the parents were….And here, I mean, I knew that it was a difficult decision which she made for my….

Q.: Did she discuss it with you?

A.: No. No. No.

Q.: When she came to a decision she just told you about her decision?

A.: Yes. Yes.

Q.: Were there talks about this whole idea of what we call the Kindertransport. Were you aware of the solution that was coming up in 1939? We are talking about 1939.

A.: No.

I will tell you how a particular case of twenty six children followed eventually by another six older boys. The teacher, headmaster of….not the school, the hostel, let's call it – Stiftung which is a Mossad (I don't know how good your German is) one of the daughters decided because Rothschild is associated with Frankfurt am Main, they would write to the Rothschilds in England, just no address: "Lord Rothschild, London, England, We are in ….situation. Can you help us?"

Now, Lord Rothschild passed it on to James who, as I said, was the son of Edmond Rothschild.

And he in true tradition of the Rothschild Dynasty felt responsible for helping fellow Jews, be (….)there.

And he instantly sent an emissary of his. It was Major Layton, a Jewish man. He was his, I believe, I was told he was his stockbroker and sent him to negotiate to take us out. Of course we didn't know anything about that.

In the meantime on the estate in Waddesdon Buckinghamshire they had an empty house (a picture I have).

Q.: Where is the estate?

A.: It's forty miles north of London, on the road to Oxford, a very old Roman Road, straight up north.

And it's one of the many estates the Rothschilds had from London and a continuous string of …. there where the whole family moved towards the North of England.

He had this house which had become empty. And instantly he fixed it up, I mean, boutique, really put lots of thought into it. And I remember that was my and I think our first feeling when we arrived. It had been a normal house. Sinks along….you know, we had different sizes of rooms, a different number of kids in. Each one had his own sink along….

Q.: But we are jumping a bit.

I want the process of how they took you out. They had to negotiate it between the Germans of course on ther one hand and the English Government.

A.: Yes. The English Government had already agreed to take 10,000 children. Now, I believe that James de Rothschild who was a Member of Parliament of the Liberal Party at the time had been active in Parliament to get the agreement for the 10,000 children for the Kindertransport.

Q.: Maybe we will give a little bit of a background. It had to do with the public pressure after the Kristallnacht – of having to help the Jews in Germany, the refugees and the fact that Palestine was closed, shut. So they were looking for some kind of solutions. And the Jewish Community in England was very much involved in that because they had a guarantee actually…..

A.: Individual guarantee.

Q.: Individual guarantee that someone would take financial care of these kids, you know.

A.: Yes.

Q.: And the Jewish organizations in Germany also had to decide which kids to choose. I mean, there was a lot of work to do.

A.: And these kids knew nothing about it.

We must have met Colonel Layton because he interviewed us. He interviewed to get the permission of the parents. It wasn't so simple to do, which we were not aware of – the children. What we were of…..when we arrived.

Now, as you say, they had to post a guarantee for each individual child to be responsible up to the age of eighteen, I believe, to leave a sum of money per child, which was then, I believe, 50 pounds which doesn't sound a lot - 50 sterling – then it was an appreciable sum, not for the Rothschilds. And that's why when I talk of our…..

Q.: So Rothschild put the guarantee for the whole group – twenty nine children?

A.: Yes.

Q.: He is the one who put the guarantee.

A.: Yes.

Q.: And all those children were in your institute.

A.: Yes.

Q.: So as a group….

A.: As a group.

Q.: He was asked to help the children as a group.

It wasn't then that they were looking who the children were.

A.: No. No.

Transfer, established hostel you might say, from one place to the other which meant also taking care of them as well as finding a suitable accommodation. In fact, it was the accommodation which set the number of children. Had it been a bigger house, I presume and I will tell you how that worked, how that worked there or how it was.

Q.: What was the range of ages.

A.: I was one of the youngest at eight and it went up to fourteen or fifteen.

Q.: Boys and girls.

A.: No, only boys.

Q.: Only boys?

A.: Girls were the daughters of the headmaster.

Q.: But there were no other girls there?

A.: No.

Q.: There were only boys.

A.: There were only boys.

Q.: I didn’t realize it.

A.: No. No. It was boys.

Q.: And so they had to persuade the parents as well.

A.: Persuade – to get a permission, a permission. I don't know how many parents there didn't agree. In many cases the parents were already organizing themselves to go to the States.

Q.: Right. Looking for….

A.: Having relatives, having affidavit….

Q.: Was your mother in that process also?

A.: Not that I know of, no. But we will come to that because there must have been something in England.

So they gave the guarantee. What I appreciate, seeing the Rothschilds and the 50 sterling, you might say, you know, is peanuts, as I say.

Q.: For him.

A.: For him, for the family.

But the responsibility and the effort they put in…They didn't just. You could see….And that's why I mention it. We came to a house which had been really well thought out – how to…..how to organize.

Q.: Thinking of the needs of each child.

A.: Each child had a locker with an inkwell in it. You remember there used to be….inkwell. I still have mine of (….). A common room with a radio. I mean, it had been worked all in a very short time.

Apart from that they took personnel that was on the Estate although they also lived in London. They would visit regularly when we arrived.

Q.: Wait a minute, I want to take it step by step.

The first time you learn it is from your mother or from talks in the institute?

A.: There were talks in the school, that's it.

Q.: At that time you were eight years old. Were you excited about that? Were you worried? Were you resentful? Do you remember how you felt when you heard all these talks ?

A.: It was exciting, I mean, it was a trip.

Q.: It was exciting.

A.: Yes, of course, it was a trip. By then I most probably realized, I mean, I would put it into words today – what I felt then – I really don't know. But looking back, I'm sure, I was relieved to get out of Germany. And I knew my mother was not in a good situation. And that also – I have a story how I reacted to that when we said 'goodbye'.

Q.: So your mother told you that you were going to go. At that point what did she explain, did she say: "You are going." You are going to live in England." "I'm going to follow." "It's just till the bad times are over…." Do you remember any kind of….?

A.: No. No.

First of all, most probably much of my early life was in (….). Maybe it continued for quite a few years. No, I don't.

Q.: After she told you it was really close to your departure or it was a few months?

A.: It would have been.

Q.: It would have been a matter of days.

A.: Yes. There wasn't much time.

Q.: And so what were the instructions? What were you supposed to prepare?

A.: There were all the preparations, exactly.

Q.: What did you have to do?

A.: I – nothing. My mother had to give….

Q.: What did she have to prepare?

A.: There had to be a set of clothing marked with a name.

Q.: You could take one suitcase.

A.: I presume so, yes.

I don't know if I took it or it went together as a….

Q.: Clothes?

A.: Yes, clothes.

Q.: Money?

A.: No. No. No.

Q.: Any personal things that you took from home?

A.: You were told what you were not allowed to take. You were not allowed to take any gold or silver medallions, kind of things. And my mother wanted me – she had a silver ….It wasn't a Maggen David, but it was an inscription by….

Q.: Did you take it?

A.: No. No.

Q.: What about pictures?

A.: I was told some pictures – yes.

Q.: You were able to take some pictures.

A.: Yes. Yes, very few.

Q.: Did you know anything about England at that point?

A.: No.

Q.: You knew nothing.

A.: No. No.

Q.: You didn't know any English either.

A.: We followed whatever. I don't know if kids now, but kids then purely flowed with the stream, right. We weren't asked, we weren't questioned, we went.

CD Number 3

Q.: I wanted to ask you if you know whether your mother, when she agreed for you to join the Kindertransport group did she have to sign some papers? I'm talking the custody. The question is who is the custodian now?

A.: Correct. Yes.

This of course I learnt afterwards that the Rothschilds sent over a representative – Major Layton who was….

Q.: He was a lawyer, I think.

A.: He actually was an investment councilor and he worked for them – stock-market also. And evidently he was a confident of his and he came over and to the best of my knowledge, interviewed the parents, got their consent to send their children. He wasn't a custodian as such because the whole thing was considered to be a very temporary affair because no one knew what would be. And many of the parents at the same time were making arrangements also to go abroad – some to America, some to Britain and expected, I presume, to be reunited with their children, very clearly. And some were indeed.

As far as my mother was concerned, she must have had plans to come abroad because at some stage, while I was already in England, I was informed a trunk, the same trunk which she dragged along at the border with Poland arrived in England and was stored by the Rothschilds all the years actually. And I knew the trunk was there and of course was interested what was in it. It took a number of years till I found out (I will come back to that).

So she evidently had plans to come. On what they were based – I don't know. I presume she also was trying to join whom I call my aunt, aunt Eva in Palestine who had moved, as I explained. So she had planned. And in fact, I don't think I gave it much thought at the time, I presume I thought I would be reunited with my mother at some stage.

In the meantime I was excited to go with the children, you know, it was a holiday with a bunch of friends. Don't forget I wasn't going on my own, some children were, I was going with a group whom I had already known, made friendships and so on.

So in other words it was a farewell, but not the kind of farewell it eventually became.

Q.: Your mother didn't come.

A.: The journey across – a child, I was interested. I think, it was only the second train ride I had. The first was under different circumstances which I already….And here we were boys together in a carriage, looking out of the window. It was a lovely train, that I remember, along the Rhine with all the castles and along….I mean, it's a beautiful trip.

Q.: Who accompanied you on the way?

A.: The family who were in charge of us in the Cedars which was where we came to, the Steinhardts the man who was a teacher, his wife and two daughters. They accompanied us all along and of course were in charge of us also in the school, in the hostel in Waddesdon in England..

Q.: Did they speak German?

A.: They spoke German. They were Germans, yes.

He was in charge already of the school, of the Philanthropin in Germany. He joined and then he had been arrested and taken to Dachau, I believe, came back and then came with us.

Q.: So you knew him.

A.: So we knew him. We knew them, yes.

Q.: And the journey was through Holland.

A.: To Holland, yes, to the Hoek van Holland.

The only excitement which may be a certain amount of stress for the children was at the border when border police came on, looked at suitcases, opwnws I believe – opened some. But as a child we felt we were taken care of, you know, we didn't personally deal with anything. The police coming through was enough, you know.

By that time, I think, I was very tired. We got on board of the boat. I don't remember the trip across. We went from the Hoek van Holland to Harrwich on the English side.

The train didn't only consist of our group, it also had other children of the Kindertransport.

Q.: All from Germany or from Austria and Czechoslovakia?

A.: To the best of my knowledge, once again, we didn't really mix. We had our group, there was no….On the train we were in our own compartment, but there were other children – how many – I don't know. There are most probably records somewhere, but it was a group.

When we arrived, we got off the boat. I don't even remember the boat trip. Maybe I was sleeping, I have no idea after all the excitement and so on. There we had to walk on the platform from the boat to the railway. And I remember being accompanied by a British policeman. No, we didn't feel threatened anymore. We somehow knew that was a different story there.

Q.: Were you relieved?

A.: I believe so. You know, to tell you my feelings at the time?

Q.: Yes.

A.: My feelings came later when we began to be settled.

We got on to the train to Liverpool Station. Many of these things - I most probably don't remember outright. But afterwards from stories and others. I know, we arrived in Liverpool Station.

There I'm not sure where the separation of the children – I think it actually happened in ….

Q.: In the station?

A.: No, in Harwich before where children were picked up by English families. Some went to hostels nearby which had been established by the Jewish Community. And there they were separated. And we, as I say, as a group went on to Liverpool Station, it may have been others also, I assume so.

There we boarded a bus, already as a group. We separated from all the others.

And we journeyed through the English country side. I later learnt it was about forty miles, let's say sixty kilometers. And we ended up going through the English country side which was lovely and we ended up in Waddesdon where the Cedars where our home was to be – big excitement.

Q.: So you didn't remain at all in London, you just passed.

A.: No. No. No. From Liverpool Station we went.

Q.: Where is the Estate located exactly. Is it North or South of London?

A.: No. It's North of London, basically on the main road from London to Oxford, what was then the main road. (in the meantime of course all the highways have been built), main road, still an old Roman road travelling from London straight North.

Q.: And this was within the compound of the Estate?

A.: In the edge. The whole village actually was a part of the Estate.

The actual Manor and out buildings, yes, we were on the edge, I might say, separated by the main road.

Q.: James de Rothschild actually resided there?

A.: Yes.

Q.: He lived there.

A.: Yes. It was like a (….). When he lived there, the flag was flown.

Q.:The Rothschilds' flag?

A.: Yes, the five arrows.

And when he didn't because he was also a member of Parliament much of the time.

Q.: He was a member of the Liberal Party, right?

A.: Liberal, yes, for the Ille of Elly which is in the East Coast of England. So he also spent time in London. Basically, I think, he came on weekends only, he also owned other homes, don't forget.

Q.: Of course.

So you arrive there.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Describe the place they put you in.

A.: O.K. It was a lovely Edwardian house if that means anything - gables, big. It was…..And unlike the Stiftung, which was a modern Bauhaus impressive it is, but cold, here you could feel – and that is also in retrospect, I presume, and it was a family home, it wasn't an institution, it was a family home. It was quite impressive also that the main gate had two big Cedars on either side of the gate which as we learnt later had been imported by one of the previous residents of the Manor from Lebanon, big trees. The whole area was heavily wooded actually, but these were impressive. And on the gate in gold letters it had: 'The Cedars'. From then on we were called: "The Cedars Boys". The two girls were unfortunately forgotten.

Q.: I think you were about thirty children?

A.: Twenty – Twenty Six. .

And then (…) we went in of course. Each one was shown the room.

Q.: Each one got a room?

A.: No. No. No. I was in a room, I think, of six. Some rooms were bigger. Don't forget, as I say, it wasn't built as a hostel or a home or whatever. It had been built for two retired nurses of one of the Rothschilds. And when they retired, they were looked after. And they built a house for them to be a rest-home.

Q.: So it had a kitchen and a dining room.

A.: It had a big kitchen, had a dining room. You had a small ….annex a wing actually with smaller rooms which were separated.

Q.: But now it was meant for adults and these are children.

Did they furnish it with toys or things like that?

A.: Yes.

Now, all the carpeting was gone. It was like the wooden flooring you have in England.

Each room depending on the number of children, as I say, some were bigger, some were smaller. I was in the bigger room most probably the smaller children.

Q.: Yes, you were nine years old, right?

A.: Eight getting on for nine.

And along the windows which were large bay windows had been set up individual wash basins, not connected to the old fashion, each child in other words. And you could see effort had been put in to make it pleasant and utilitarian. So you felt and of course (….).

Q.: I forgot the family name of those who took care of you.

A.: Steinhardt.

Q.: Were there other nannies?

A.: Not at the time.

There were local women who helped who later on also came to teach us English. They were all wives of Estate workers.

Q.: While you were there everything was happening in the Estate or you would go out of the Estate?

A.: No. I would go to the house and then…..

So each bed room had been provided. We had little cupboards. Downstairs they had a common-room. Also each one had a locker, an open locker. There was no need for ….with an inkwell at the time. I don't remember, I still have actually one of the inkwells which was there. And a radio, a clock and a radio up on the shelf and a radio for community news which we had been using a lot of course to follow the war.

Then there was a large dining room. The family were separate. They were in the same house of course on the other side. They had their room which was out of bounds for us. A large kitchen because as I said it had been built for…..I'm not sure exactly for different stories it had been built as a nursing home…..

Q.: So, how long did you stay in the Estate for three years or four years?

A.: No, I stayed eight years.

Q.: So maybe you could tell us about the first period of adjustment and then the routine …..

A.: Yes. The routine was we settled into the house. There was a large garden and the front overlooked the Estate and the back overlooked rolling hills and an old Norman Church. And as far as I could see, you saw meadows and in the background the children (..) which after time we began to explore.

There was also the Vicar's horse, old horse, he tied a horse in the back which of course the older boys started riding on. I'm not sure if the Vicar knew but they didn't do any damage. Nothing was ever said about it, but it wasn't meant to be ridden on.

And we started climbing the trees, the big mature trees. And walking around the Estate which was free and there was freedom. Q.: It sounds a very comfortable setting.

A.: Yes, and for boys, young boys it wasn't a town, we weren't in any way constricted.

Q.: But there must have been some kind of a schedule in that routine.

A.: Yes, of course.

Q.: First of all, maybe you talk about the language. When most of you came, you didn't know English, did you?

A.: No.

There may have been a few of the boys, the older ones who had a smatter. So we were taught first few words in English by one of the village women who also helped in the house and so on. And quite soon after we were divided into two groups.

There were two schools in the village – a church school and a council school. Now, the danger Rothschild saw that there would be competition for us in the schools, in the shops. And everything was divided as equal as it could be. Children – some went to church school…..

Q.: It was a public school.

A.: A public school, but was…..

Q.: And there you met English children.

A.: Yes, and then the council school.

Church school wasn't run by the church, but it was influenced by the church, but that didn't mean that the children didn't have to go to….

Q.: Were there religion classes?

A.: There would have been, but I was in the other school. And they wouldn't have attended.

Q.: How was your encounter with British teachers British children? How did they accept you? Did they understand that you are refugees? Did they understand that you are Jewish?

A.: Well, I'm not sure to what extent…..

Q.: In what month of 1939 did you arrive?

A.: In March.

Q.: You arrived in March.

Did you go to school immediately?

A.: A couple of weeks.

Q.: So this is before the war. We will talk about what happened when the war broke out.

A.: Before the war.

We were curious obviously. And we now were the proteges of the Rothschilds. They basically owned the village and people felt loyalty at that time.

Q.: There was no hostility or anti-Semitism or anything of that sort.

A.: No. No, opposite.

The Rothschilds were known as Jews.

No, far from it. The kids and the adults accepted us, I don't know to what extent they realized what kind of refugees there were that we only came. But they knew we were kids, boys.

Q.: And did you make friends among them?

A.: Yes. So some of the boys were, of course, very good at football, so they were instantly accepted and eventually joined the local team. And they helped those……

Q.: I assume very quickly you switched to English.

A.: Very quickly.

Q.: Or you kept speaking German with each other?

A.: No. No. No. That originally we would have done.

After a short while the rules were we had to speak English. Well, between rules and what was done, of course…..But we did very quickly so much so that at some stage….

Q.: You forgot German.

A.: Well, there was fear we would forget it. And we were expected to be reunited with our parents who spoke German. So they switched the rules that we had to also speak German in the house. But that was too late, that was finished – we spoke English and that was that.

Now in school the teachers were very good and also it was a village school which easy-going and joint classes.

Q.: You felt comfortable from the beginning.

A.: Yes. And for instance, I was sat, we were all sat next to a local child.

Q.: You were a third grader, a fourth grader, something of that sort?

A.: Yes. Yes, second, third grade. The grade didn't matter, we started with nothing.

Q.: But did they have exams, report cards?

A.: Yes, eventually, yes, of course. But in the beginning, like the first day in school, I remember…..

Q.: You do?

A.: Yes.

I was sat next to a girl who was meant to help me. And there was a children's book and there was a picture of a child jumping over a skipping rope. And it said underneath. See what I remember: "And the child jumped with joy." And she said: "That's my name."

Q.: Joy?

A.: Joy. Her name was Joy Carp. And that should teach you that the fact that what? 75 years later I remember this, right?

And she sat next to me the first, I don't know how long, to help me understand what was happening.

Teachers were very sympathetic. They were genuine teachers who knew their children. Once again, it was a village school, the teachers knew the children, the teachers knew the parents, they knew the grandparents – they were a part of the community.

Q.: Did James de Rothschild meet you?

A.: Yes. One of the things which I for sure and all appreciated, he didn't just ….

Q.: Do you remember the first meeting?

A.: Yes. He came quite often…..

Q.: So he was really involved.

A.: Yes.

Q.: He wasn't just giving his place and money. He was really involved and in contact with the children

A.: No, that's what I'm saying. He was involved. He would come.

He was a tall, very austere looking man with a monocle which he would sometimes drop and we would all…..But it was on a string, but you automatically…..

Q.: He was the son of Edmond de Rothschild.

A.: Yes.

Now, he would speak to us in German, he would say: "Dieser Junge ist gewachsen "This boy has grown." And he took really a personal interest.

Q.: His wife as well?

A.: Yes.

Q.: His wife was Dorothy, right?

A.: Dorothy, yes, yes, very much so. And when he died, she carried on very much.

Q.: Did they have children?

A.: No.

Q.: They didn't have children.

A.: They didn't have children, no.

They came and that's what I appreciate. The money to them wouldn't have been a big factor, but they took a personal interest. And later on I kept contact with her.

Q.: You kept contact with Dorothy after James de Rothschild had died.

A.: Yes, after he died, in London. When I was in London in the Embassy (we will come to that). And she said: A. She was very proud of how the children have mainly done and she said: "We should have done more." So she was aware of the twenty six children and the others who followed, I will come to that.

Q.: So they were a really philanthropic family.

A.: Yes.

And the number of the children they took was according to the size of the house. They decided the house could hold the family plus twenty six children. And when things became worse in Germany, they brought over another six, I think, older boys. And it was then decided that six of us would be billeted out to local families. A. So their house wouldn't be crowded and B. that we would learn English from local families.

Q.: So you were one of them?

A.: I was one of them.

Now, that was an amazing period for me and I think for others as well.

Q.: So you were located in a local English, non-Jewish family. ….

A.: Local English, non-Jewish.

Q.: When they did that were you upset at the idea that you are being moved?

A.: No, I don't think so.

Today I see it as the most formative…..

Q.: Yes, but I'm trying to understand whether at that point you said: Ah, I'm being moved again..

A.: I don't think so. No, don't forget we met the others in school.

Q.: But you lived together and you came from Germany together…..

A.: I don't think so, you know…..

To tell you exactly how I felt then – I'm sure not.

Q.: So who is the local family?

A.: The local family was a mother and a daughter – middle aged. She was a district nurse.

Q.: Was she a widow?

A.: One was a widow, the other, the nurse, to the best of my knowledge, was divorced.

Q.: But there were no other children?

A.: No. No. No.

Q.: They took you only.

A.: They took me and afterwards they took others, after our term was up, I think it was two months.

Q.: So it was just a temporary thing.

A.: Yes, two months and then…..

Q.: And then you came back to the house.

A.: Yes. And then I came back and another boy.

Q.: So everyone shared it. It wasn't (…) that you are going to live with an English family.

A.: No. No, it was meant to give us all a chance to live with a family, to learn English.

Q.: And how did you feel with the family?

A.: It was, as I say, I believe the most….(What's the word I used?) formative period as a child: A. It was a family. I was on my own. Being very English they didn't show physical affection.

Q.: So they wouldn't hug or kiss you.

A.: No. No hug or kissing because at the time, that was the period when between parents a shake of the hand was….If a soldier, a young man went to war, his father would shake his hand and wish him…..Well, no hugging or ….This was very strange. It was so considered effeminate. Some of the French did; Some of the Italians did, but not the British. But they did A. Have two dogs. And one of the things, love of dogs I developed there. His name was Chump, a Labrador which are lovely dogs to start off with. And he I could show affection to. He could lick me, he could…..And that I came to the conclusion many years ago – the love of the English to their dogs, cats but mainly dogs is there they can show open affection. They can be licked by them, they can hug them, they can …..

Q.: That's acceptable.

A.: Yes, that's acceptable and they can show warmth and I could as a boy.

Q.: It's an interesting insight.

A.: Yes, the dog was my pal.

Q.: You had a friend.

A.: I had a friend.

I had a room of course there in a small village cottage also looking out onto the playing fields, almost next to both schools actually.

In the morning they would send him up. He would jump, come up the stairs, climb on the stairs, jump on the bed, lick me all over. That was acceptable.

Q.: He was your alarm clock.

A.: Yes, alarm clock and also, as I say, someone who showed me affection and who I could show affection because when you are in a school, especially in a German family who looked after us, they had their own children, so they couldn't show…..

Q.: Did they provide you with clothes? How did it work?

A.: No. No.

Q.: Did each kid get pocket money? How did it work?

A. I just finish with the family.

The families – I'm not sure, I assume were paid for upkeep, I have no….

Q.: You would also eat there.

A.: I would eat there – yes. Visit the kids at school but lived. Like any kid, I would be out of the house a lot but be there.

And also their show of affection was the English way of teasing which shows affection. It's not always understood everywhere, but I adopt it and others…… And one of the things with friends we show…..

Q.: What would they do for instance? If you were the child, how would they tease you?

A.: Any little quirk I would have, they would pick on it and laugh with me together, not ….

Q.: And you understood that.

A.: I began to understand.

Q.: Because there would be a cultural gap, you weren't used to it.

A.: I accepted it because I could see the love behind it, the affection, let's say.

Q.: And the good humour.

A.: And the good humour.

Q.: At first you were describing a very warm welcome actually even by the British. You were very comfortable and very protected.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Were you still homesick? I mean, were you thinking about your mother?

A.: Well, on a daily basis, I say, we felt the freedom. It showed itself in…..At the moment we got, we would be out in the field, we were out of the house a lot. There was control of course.

Climbing trees – all things…..

Q.: For boys.

A.: And we had mixed, we would go out on our own or two without being afraid that there wasn't attention around of course because we were accepted. And local kids came to visit, especially the footballers. And I give them credit, there were two in particular two brothers Deckers I give them credit for leading to our absorption because they became known in the village – Decker boys and they played cricket and they made the local teams.

Q.: One of them was Otto, Otto Decker.

A.: Otto Decker, that's right and Rolf Decker. Otto Decker – I'm still in touch with him. He lives in Florida. Rolf died about a year or two years ago, he was the older one.

So they helped our absorption. I believe they helped our absorption because if there are two good footballers, the kids are O.K., you know.

So then there was a boxer among us, one of the older boys.

Q.: You are talking about Sports.

A.: Sports, yes, because it's Sports which…..

Q.: Were there other activities like music? If you wanted to learn to play, let's say, a musical instrument – violin or piano – were there lessons?

A.: No. We didn't have those…..Even in school, the village school we learnt how to read, basic notes.

Q.: Was there a choir or something?

A.: No, at the time – no.

Many of the people who would have taught, even carpentry, the carpentry teacher was called up, so we didn't have carpentry.

Q.: Because we will get to the war, what happened in the war.

A.: But coming back to…..So during the day we were busy as children would be and boys in particular, roaming around.

And the school, we walked to school, it was very close, made friends. My first crush there with a local girl, I mean she wasn't, you know…... But as I say, freedom was expressed (….).

There were two incidents which showed that underneath I was kind of boiling. One was one night quite early I had a nightmare. And I literally jumped across the room from one bed to a bed on the other side of the room.

Q.: Do you remember what the nightmare was?

A.: Yes.

But now, I would never have believed that I would jump. And the children corroborated, they said I was one of the…..So it was really tension into which we….I must have said something about my mother because in the morning I got a letter as it were from my mother, but it wasn't of course. At the time they had written – letters were cards at the time because already there was no connection. So there was that.

And then I had another nightmare. One of them I remember. I was under a blanket. The blankets were piling up on top of me like a press. And evidently that made me jump out to get out from under…..It needs a psychologist to ….I haven't tried, but I put it down of course to the fact that….

Q.: And until the outbreak of the war in 1939 did you have any contact with your mother? Did you receive any letters from her?

A.: There were Red Cross letters already which were cards which you then sent back on the other side, you know.

Q.: It's just a few months until September. Did you know then what was happening with your mother in those months?

A.: No.

Q.: You had no idea.

A.: I had no idea. She was at home, I know. From the records I know she was deported in 1942.

Q.: We will get to that. We are still in 1939.

A.: Yes. Yes. Exactly.

Q.: On the Estate where you lived, called the Dorms….

A.: Let's call it….

Q.: I mean, is it a Jewish children Rothschild is a Jewish patron.

Did they lead Jewish life? Were there prayers? Was there Shishi Shabbat, Holidays – how did it work?

A.: Yes.

In the beginning: A. There were older boys already knew, I mean, the oldest was, I think, four-teen, but they had already known…. ….Don't forget that we came from non-religious homes. We came from a non-religious school.

Q.: All of you came from non-religious homes?

A.: Yes, because those who were religious….

Q.: Weren't in the….

A.: They weren't in the Philanthropin….It was liberal and you know, which was basically built to make little Jewish children good German Jewish children.

Q.: Right, we spoke about that.

A.: So we had Shabbat, we had in due course in which children who were a Bar Mitzva all in the….

Q.: Do you remember your Bar MItzva?

A.: Yes. I had it with another boy called Peter Gortatowski.

Q.: What was it like?

A.: We studied.

Q.: You studied the Torah.

A.: Yes. And a teacher came down from London to teach us our Parasha, a Rabbi. And we weren't particularly interested. It wasn't anymore a part of our culture, but they tried. And who actually brought that was two Jewish families who arrived in Waddesdon who had a factory producing for the war effort fine instruments. It was the Margulies family – the father of Shalvi.

Q.: You are talking about the father of Alice Shalvi from Jerusalem.

A.: The father of Alice Shalvi, yes, a professor at the University.

Her father was religious, and she continued to be religious and her uncle.

Q.: Did they keep a Kosher kitchen in the Estate or not really?

A.: No. No. Not really.

I don't think they introduced ….

Q.: But were the Jewish holidays celebrated?

A.: Also, yes, yes we did. Hannukah and so on of course. We got presents.

Q.: Was there a Seder in Pessach?

A.: Yes, and Matzot were brought from…..at least in the beginning….

Q.: So you knew you were…..

A.: Yes, we knew we were Jewish and that made the basics of a non-religious home Jewish.

Q.: But you also became acquainted with English.

A.: Yes.

Q.: I mean – Christmas and…..

A.: Yes, very much so. I knew the Christmas choral. That we learnt, we didn't participate in school in the village…..but the atmosphere around…..

Q.: In terms of the English who lived there, was there a religious atmosphere or also secular?

A.: No. No, even in church school, but as I say, we came to a council school which differentiated those in the village who didn't want to be under the influence of the church. It was smaller, but…..

Q.: The daily routine schedule – was there a lot of discipline.

A.: Seeing the family, the man was already sick. He died quite shortly after – Hugo Steinhardt.

The discipline was by the older boys, right. They were and we all felt under certain rules as refugees, Jewish. I think we realized, we had a responsibility to ourselves, to Rothschilds to behave.

Q.: So there weren't really major problems….

A.: There weren't....Not that I know….There wasn't any bullying, I must say, by the adults…..

Q.: How many boys and how many girls were there?

A.: Twenty six boys and only two girls.

Q.: Were there only two girls during the whole period?

A.: Well, they belonged to the…..They were a part of the family and they were quite separate.

Q.: Otherwise it was all boys.

A.: All boys, it was all boys.

Only in school, in the village school we would mix with the girls. But at that age anyway you mix ….you look for boy companion.

Q.: Did they take you on trips?

A.: Yes.

Now, coming back to the…..The nurse once again took us to many boys dog shows and so on. And at a later stage took some of the boys to holidays, even to Wales and so on.

Q.: You were well taken care of.

A.: Yes.

And the school teacher – how interesting how I was surrounded by dogs – kept three dogs.

Q.: In school?

A.: Two of which were always under her desk in school. That's the difference of really, it's human I come down to basics. And she would take us to dog shows.

So I mean they treated us as special.

Q.: Did they take you to London also?

A.: No. No. No.

Q.: They took you to a more natural surroundings.

A.: Yes. And we worked in a garden which of course today wouldn't be allowed, because it would be misuse of authority and so on. And we enjoyed there because if you work in a garden you also get tea and coffee and you are a part.

Q.: In which you were very lucky because we sometimes do hear stories of the children of the Kindertransport who were abused and were exploited.

A.: We were extremely lucky to this day. In the Kindertransport people who knew of us know how lucky we were. There were terrible stories, terrible, but these were individual.

Q.: Right by both English and Jewish families.

A.: Yes, these were individuals who would get…..

Here we were really protected in every way. You asked about – of course we were clothed and so on.

Q.: They gave you clothes you wore….

A.: Yes.

Q.: Did they give you any money?

A.: We got pocket money.

Now, we also got gifts. At Hanukkah we were able to request gifts: balls and then football boots, cricket bats, torches. Come Bar Mitzvah - we got watches and books and so on, book tokens.

Q.: What about cultural life? Was there a cinema or a theatre?

A.: Yes, an interesting thing – cultural life – there were events in the village hall which was also Rothschild Institution. On one occasion us boys – were asked to sing. We sang as a choir 'Die Lorelei' in German. Don't forget war with Germany

Q.: We will get to that. How was that accepted?

A.: They had asked for it. Yes, it was all right.

Q.: A language you grew up with it.

A.: That's the language we knew. And I still remember the opening part.

Q.: Can you sing it to us?

A.: Yes. "Ich weiss nicht, was soll….." Anyway, now I can't really, but I still remember it.

There would be dances held in the village hall. We would stand outside, we were small.

Cinema – also at the later stage. We would have bicycles, we were bicycling to Ayelsbury – the local town which was six miles away and on a Saturday in particular go to the cinema. Now we were still below the age. Some of the films we couldn't….So you would stand. At that time people waited in line to get into a cinema, there were queues going. So we would go along: "Will you take us in. We have got the money."

Q.: You smuggled in.

A.: No, we would ask someone: "Will you take us in, please. We have got the money." So people would take us into films. I mean there weren't horror and they weren't Pornographic, bu there were films which were marked as: "Not suitable for children." There was a U and an A, I think. So the U was O.K., but people would…..And that was quite a regular Saturday.

But I'm skipping into different periods. Coming back to the nurse and holidays in which she took others – at one stage she applied to the Steinhardts about the possibility of adopting me. They were of course aborted because my mother was alive and…..which shows you that people didn't see us as orphans already then. But the idea behind it showed a lovely attitude.

Q.: You knew of it at the time or you know about it now?

A.: No, I knew about it…..

Q.: You knew that they wanted to adopt you.

A.: I knew that later from Mrs. Steinhardt. Of course they said: We can't: A. We have no right, and B. I got a mother," for all they knew still – the father I didn't have.

Q.: Did the British authorities – welfare or whatever authority come and check you, how things were going? Because in other places they sometimes. had to report how the kids are doing.

A.: Not to the best of my knowledge.

Q.: Like a social worker.

A.: Not that I know. No. No.

The person directly in touch on a daily basis, the person in charge through the Rothschilds was what they called the Estate Manager – Major Woolf – also Jewish from the Woolf family of the authoress Virginia Woolf.

Q.: Her husband?

A.: No, but an uncle or something like that, related.

Q.: To Leonard Woolf.

A.: Yes. Yes. Exactly.

And he would be the direct…..The office, the Estate Office was called, was just across the road. And the daily contact would be between the Steinhardts and Woolf. He also came through like an English Major with a moustache. I only later realized he was…..He wrote me a lovely letter when I left – he wasn't as cold as he appeared to be as a child, you know. Don't forget at that time the status of different age groups was very marked – it was 'Mr.' 'Madame' and no first name, including in school. And that lay down very strict boundaries also in feelings. You couldn't feel all the warmth to someone you called Major Woolf or whatever.

One of the things you asked of discipline which we touched on, which we resented, it took me many years to accept is that we were reminded all the time that we were social cases, that we were…..

Q.: Refugees?

A.: Yes, by our own people that we ….And we had to behave. We had to behave. There was no…..

Q.: You were always reminded that it's not really your home. You were guests

A.: It's not our home and that we are guests. People are helping us are not our…..

Q.: So there were also feelings of patronizing?

A.: Yes, but that's from the teachers, our own – the Steinhardts basically. And that was a way to control: "Be careful!" "Don't forget you are….."

Q.: And: "You ought to be grateful," also.

A.: "You ought to be grateful," and so on. And that we resented. They most probably didn't have much choice to keep us under control, but it was….

Q.: You had nothing to compare it with?

A.: No, exactly.

Q.: In discipline were there punishments?

A.: Discipline not in the school. Discipline once again – for instance, I was a bad eater, so I had one of the older boys sitting next to me. When I had the nightmares one of the older boys sat next to me in bed.

Q.: As you said, in those times they didn't have psychologists accompanying the children in trauma.

A.: No. No. No. Nobody.

The only thing they understood that they could write a letter a calm me down – a letter, but no such thing that I remember putting you on their knee or giving you a hug and saying: "Everything….." This just wasn't done…..

Q.: The older children – besides general education, did they also get some kind of professional education, something more professional such as courses….?

A.: Yes. Some as soon as the war started those who were old enough were called up. Some were interned for a little while as enemy aliens and went into the army.

One who later on was in the Navy, was even a Petty Officer in the Navy. And they would come and visit. They were already out. The house cleared, it became not empty, but emptier, quieter…..

Q.: But you didn't have any meetings with other Kindertransports in England.

A.: No. No. No.

Q.: You had no contact.

A.: No. No.

Q.: So perhaps we will advance to September 1939.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Until September you didn't consider yourself someone who fled because for you, as you said, you were going for a summer camp, as far as we were concerned.

A.: Yes.

Q.: But while you were there on the Estate you had a radio. Were you more aware of what was going on, of the tension with Germany of the war?

A.: Yes.

Q.: And on 1st September 1939 when Germany invaded Poland and the war broke out, did you hear about it? Were you aware of what was going on?

A.: I mentioned, we had a radio in our common room. And once again the older boys put up a map and we would follow the news. Of course there was no television.

Q.: So did you feel torn? Because you were born in Germany; you were German kids; the families were there. And quite soon you are in a safe land, people who are taking care of you who are fighting now against your homeland.

Did you feel that paradox or did you feel torn?

A.: No.

Q.: You weren't aware of it.

A.: No, we didn't.

Q.: So immediately you identified with the British.

A.: We left Germany. We all knew why we left and that we weren't wanted, it wasn't our country there – no, no doubt about it.

The war was felt in a number of ways: A. By news – it built up. Then one day or one evening, afternoon came around with gasmasks – that was before, and we were fitted with gasmasks. We had a cellar, a normal cellar, which was readied for an air-raid shelter although we were in a village.

Q.: So they prepared you.

A.: Yes.

In school they made kind of basic preparing - Every morning and I think that was already before the war - we had to put on a gasmask. We went under the table, there were heavy carpentry tables, you know, really they were placed along the wall, and we had to go under them with a gasmask. I'm not sure, but it was probably only with the outbreak that you had to carry your…..you weren't aloud to go out without a gasmask. That was the outbreak, but all led up to it. All signs showing where you were, were taken down, like if it said: "Waddesdon Post Office", Waddesdon was removed. On the central statue of the First World War which every really child it said: "To the fallen of Waddesdon", Waddesdon was removed. There was no sign whatsoever! You ended up in a village not leading to it, not in. And we were instructed if anyone asks us (and some people did, it was a main road): "Where are you?" You would say: "The Police Station," there was a little police station, "is further up. You ask there." And this was to avoid….It was fear. Gasmasks were of course the result of the First World War when heavy use of gas and great suffering by gas.

CD Number 4

Q.: So also around you in the village men were drafted.

A.: Yes.

Q.: A war broke out. Among the local families did you feel the change, the tension? Was there a feeling of optimism or people were scared? They didn't feel it yet, but was there a sense of tension?

A.: In the beginning – no. Don't forget, I don't know how much you know of those years, it was called the Phoney War. And basically until the Germans overran France, there was…..

Q.: Right, until May 1940, when the Germans conquered France.

A.: But our feeling – you asked – we had no feeling for Germany.

Q.: But you knew your mother was there.

A.: Yes, but we didn't consider ….We didn't think of air-raids and then being involved. We were of course waiting for us. I don't think there were bigger patriots of Britain than us.

And in fact very soon afterwards when some of the boys reached army age, they were called up and we would visit, we were proud of them. The younger boys were proud of them. One was in the Navy, a Petty Officer and others in well-known units. Of course we had no positive feelings for Germany whatsoever, how could we?

In the village nothing changed towards us that we knew, with the children – for sure not. We then once heard that after the war, when there was a blackout – no light and no ….and cars even travelled in almost total darkness, Police came to the Cedars said somebody saw us flashing, they saw flashing lights. So there was signaling. So someone did still not feel positive, comfortable. It wouldn't have been children, it could only be one person, it could be a number of people, but evidently there was a suspicion of someone, we weren't totally accepted. Don't forget it took sometime before news of what was actually happening, up to then we were refugees because we couldn't go to school in Germany – all sorts of stories, but not of actual atrocities.

Q.: Right. Then we are coming to May 1940 when Germany actually conquered Holland, Belgium and France and the issue of Dunkirk

Did you, guys, hear about it?

A.: Yes, of course. The full significance, I think, we only heard afterwards. If those troops hadn't come back, then Britain was completely naked.

Q.: And another change – Churchill became Prime-Minister – you were aware of these events.

A.: Yes, very much.

Q.: Even though you were quite young.

A.: Quite young, but there was news. And all around you you can't escape it. And we felt in the middle of it. We were a very interested party of course. But apart from that in the village parts of Estate were taken over by the army and were used as a big fuel depot. (….) and trucks were coming and going. And the main road was a main artery for troop movement. So there was constant activity, constant awareness. Also as you say, men were called up from the village. As I mentioned before, the village took on a different air, no signs. You were told to be careful. In the evening the blackout. I mean you were surrounded by it.

Q.: But as a young boy you didn't feel fear –this is war? You didn't feel physically you were in danger?

A.: No, it was exciting. It was exciting with all the soldiers.

Q.: And what happens when the Battle of Britain began?

A.: We weren't in the line of….We would have to go down to shelters when there was a siren.

Q.: You didn't have to go down or you did?

A.: We did. We did.

There was a siren. We would go down to a shelter. There were some bombs in the area, mistake by planes jettison their bombs because they were hit and so on, but over our area….

Q.: Relatively….

You knew of the Blitzkrieg of course.

A.: The Blitzkrieg and the Fire Brigade was active.

Q.: But because you were in the country side, you weren't evacuated, like they took all the children from London.

A.: No. Exactly, the opposite – we received evacuees.

Q.: So who were the people whom you received there? Were they also from the Kindertransport?

A.: No. No. No.

Children from London were brought to the Manor.

Q.: Jewish children?

A.: No. No.

Q.: Just British, whatever.

A.: Just British, yes. A part of the evacuation from London, children were sent to the Manor which became also a host to children, very small children actually.

Q.: Right. How did you treat them?

A.: We weren't in contact with them. They were up in the Manor. They were toddlers and we had no contact.

Also one of the bigger houses which we were told was built from the stones and so on which were left over when the Manor was built, there was a big house in the village. And that Jews from the East End were evacuated for sometime. I must admit they were an embarrassment to us. They were Yiddish speaking. And in spite of the fact that they have been in England for many-many years, they came from the ghetto of East London. And here we were already part English.

Q.: You could feel the difference.

A.: Yes, we saw the difference. But it didn't have a direct affect, but as children we didn't mix with their children or anything, not….There was no connection. The connection with the refugees was through the Margulies', as I say, who made sure we got some Hebrew education and so on.

Q.: Did you also study Hebrew?

A.: We studied a bit of Hebrew, you know, but we weren't interested. We ended up studying without knowing. We knew the letters, we knew the Aleph-Beth letters….

Q.: This brings me to another question of again – another paradox which is Palestine because the Jews in Palestine were fighting the White Paper.

A.: But it came much later.

Q.: Yes, but still the year was 1939. And there was the issue – on one hand the even before the outbreak of the war, the British were limiting the possibilities of Jewish refugees to entre the Land of Palestine. On the other hand, they were fighting the Germans. I have to quote what Ben -Gurion said: "We must help the [British] Army [fight the Nazis] as if there was no White Paper, and the White Paper as if there was no war."

But were you aware of this in terms of as….?

A.: Well, today I can't say: "aware of that," but later on of course.

Q.: But you did have a relative in Palestine – Eva….

A.: Yes, of course. We followed very much, but not the politics. Palestine would have been of concern to us, but …..

Q.: At that point you were not angry at the British because they were not letting people entre Palestine.

A.: No. I don't think we were aware of that. We were aware of the formation of the Jewish Brigade and very proud of that. And one of the boys joined the Jewish Brigade also by the name of Rothschild incidentally, but not a part of The Family, not to the best of our knowledge any way. So we were proud of that.

And the conflict in power between British and so on came to our knowledge much later when there was what we call terrorism.

Q.: And what was the atmosphere in 1940 – 1941 after the fall of France, Holland and Belgium? Did the feeling change? Were people afraid that with the Blitz, that the Germans might succeed, they might invade Britain?

A.: I'm looking at it as an eleven year old at that time. We never considered the possibility of the Germans invasion….We felt completely sure that it was an island and the British were the British with the empire. And the Germans wouldn't be capable of crossing, you know, a childish attitude. And only after time you realize we were concerned with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Agreement. That we understood that all of a sudden with big Russia.

Q.: With Russia?

A.: Yes. But we couldn't even dream of Britain falling. To us Britain was a super-super power.

Q.: As a child you felt very safe.

A.: Completely safe.

Once again, maybe the older ones understood more.

Q.: I'm asking you from the perspective of a child.

A.: We followed on the map the comings and goings. Every move of course with the Allies later, of course was a cause of celebrating for us. But don't forget the news was completely in the hands of the authorities, not like now when you hear what was going on behind the scenes.

Q.: So you are saying is that you were affected by the British propaganda.

A.: Yes. Yes. Yes, the atmosphere. If the British said the Air Force was winning the Battle of Britain, it was winning the Battle of Britain. And if Dunkirk was a huge success, it was a huge success.

Q.: You accepted it.

A.: A. It was in our interest to believe that ….

Q.: Different times.

A.: And our interest as well because in today's circumstances I don't think you can fight a war too.

Q.: In June 1941 the war between Germany and USSR broke out. For Britain it might have been a bit of a turning point because the pressure decreased.

A.: Yes, there was less pressure.

Q.: So we advance – 1942 you have some success in North Africa with Rommel and El-Alamein and all that.

But during those years as the Germans were advancing in Europe and when they get to different places they start putting Jews in ghettos and then they transport the Jews to camps: labour camps, extermination camps. (We know after).

Being Jewish refugees in England, did you hear anything about that? Were there any rumors about what was going on in Europe?

A.: No. We were isolated from it.

Q.: You were isolated.

A.: Because if it had been in a normal family atmosphere like in Germany, you would hear people whispering and so on, here there was a group of boys who followed the radio, got newspapers, nobody behind the scenes was talking about it. Therefore, in that way, I think, we were just isolated intentionally or otherwise – it doesn't matter. But we weren't a part of the milieu which was talking about it, you know.

Q.: And on the other hand you mentioned, and we should talk about it, that at a certain point, I think it was in 1941 or 1942 that the British treated the German Jews, the refugees, especially the men as aliens enemies.

A.: Yes.

Q.: So they put them in camps. Were you aware of that?

A.: Yes. Yes. People went to camps, but quite shortly they came out of them.

Q.: Because of public opinion and all that?

A.: No, I think they needed them and needed them as translators first of all in the Pioneer Corps which was a labour force but in the army. They wore uniforms, so they weren't….

Q.: Yes, but I know many of them were closed in these camps for at least a year, separated from their families, treated as…you know….

A.: Right. Some were even sent to Australia.

But as I say, we weren't aware of that. We knew because, I think, some of the older boys, some of them were, but soon they came out as soldiers with a khaki uniforms.

Q.: So you weren't fully aware of it.

A.: No.

Q.: And in terms of the local kids, there was nothing saying: "Oh, you German kids….", they say you as English at a certain point.

A.: No. They saw us, I don't know….

Q.: They weren't suspicious of you.

A.: No, the kids for sure not.

We were a part, as I say, who played. I never remember and I know to this day that some who are still alive are still in contact – friendships, close friendships were made with the local kids, particularly with the boys on the playing fields, you know.

Q.: All these years as a young boy you didn't encounter any anti-Semitism in Britain.

A.: Not in the village.

Q.: Not in the village.

A.: No. I really didn't. Even after, I mean, I knew it existed, I'm not naïve, but personally….

Q.: There were the British Fascists - Mosley

A.: Yes, in London, Mosley.

Q.: Were you aware of that at the time?

A.: No. Afterwards, of course when I met up, but we weren't…..

Isolated is the right word. Once again, had we had television and picture showing, the only news we got was radio, the BBC which was very correct and official and rightly so. And then there were newsreels which were also of heroism and patriotism. It was nothing negative about that. And they were…..And we looked forward to seeing them when we went to the films, there was always a newsreel pithy or 20th century which were uplifting. And you know, you could see how the troops are advancing, how the troops…..

Q.: In 1943 the Battle of Stalingrad took place. It was the Russians of course, but did you hear about it?

A.: Yes, I mean we followed the war on the map. 'We' – the older boys who were – we.

Q.: At that point there weren't any bombings any more. But in spite of the war did your routine life continue? Did you go to school?

A.: Yes. We went to school. We went cycling. We all eventually got cycles which were cheap. We would cycle. We would be very free in the …..

There was a church fare every year, we would participate, you know, in the village we went and we were a part of it.

When it came – Christmas, choral singing, we didn't go choral singing, but we would somehow play act and go and run sing runaway. We realized we didn't really belong in it, but we knew the chorals and….you know.

Q.: Was there any specific or more connection with the Jewish Community in England?

A.: No, not other than through the Rothschilds. And there not so much a Jewish Community – Margulies. The Margulies Family – they made sure.

Now the moment there were enough boys of Bar Mitzvah age, James de Rothschild would come and his Jahrzeit in the Cedars instead of….And I think that's one of the few Jewish things he did. He was also very far, to the best of my knowledge, removed. He was proud of being Jewish, this I found out from Mrs. Rothschild later, but he didn't carry out so much so. For instance, now I know the front door or non of the rooms of the Manor have a Mezuzah and so on…..

Q.: They were secular…..

A.: ….But very Jewish, yes.

Q.: They were secular Jews who supported Zionists.

A.: Yes, he very much. Some of the branches weren't, some of the branches were. He carried on.

Q.: And she did too.

A.: Yes. Yes.

Q.: Because I think they donated the money for the building of the Knesset and Supreme Court.

A.: Still to this day, and Yad Hanadiv.

Q.: Yad Hanadiv is theirs.

A.: And now they are about to build the Yad Hanadiv Archives.

Q.: You are talking about Yad Hanadiv Fund

A.: Yes, the archives. And Yad Hanadiv Fund (Keren Hanadiv) is directed…..by Lord Rothschild who is a nephew, I think.

Q.: Lord Jacob Rothschild?

A.: Jacob, Lord Jacob.

So as I say, Sir Rothschild would come for the Jahrzeit.

And today their Jewishness, as far as I can see, is they still the house sees itself as a leader in the Jewish Community, responsible in many ways. And it's in their DNA being the leadership of the Jewish Community especially in philanthropic and social cases..

Q.: The war continued six years.

When you came to England you were eight – nine years old. You are now fourteen – fifteen years old.

A.: Yes.

Q.: During all the years of the war did you ever think: What's happening with my mother or you just put it aside?

A.: Mainly, I would say, I put it aside.

Q.: Did you assume that she is in Germany and you will see her after the war?

A.: I don't know. I put it aside.

Q.: Did the grown-ups talk to you about it? Did they deal with the children? Because everybody left a family

A.: No, that's one of the things. Grown ups didn't talk to children and for sure not when you had grown ups who had their own daughters too and problems growing daughters. Even if it was twenty six adolescent boys, they worried about their health, physical health, if somebody was sick, for sure. And they cared for them. So they were closer. And once they were older they decided to study. They were giving the opportunity.

Q.: But what was on your mind? Did you think that your mother is at home. She is in Germany and the war will be over.

At a certain point you stopped receiving letters or even…

A.: No. Of course you put that down to the borders. I honestly do not know. And having talked since, same applies to others, we put it out of our mind. We are distant from…..You know, at some stage most probably I'm on my own. You weren't rankling back. .

Q.: You are already independent.

A.: Yes. And you manage also in every respect on your own with the help of course of the adults in their own way. Of course it was incidental, I don't have to tell you, for those who were reunited with…..

Q.: We will talk about it in a minute.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Do you remember the day the war ended, the announcement of the end of the war?

A.: Yes.

Q.: First of all, there is the Landing in Normandy in June 1944. It was all a part of your excitement about the victory.

A.: Yes. First of all you saw Normandy. Although we were north, there was tremendous amount of movement of troops all over. And there was storage for ….I don't know what they stored in these (…. ) on the side of the road. They weren't even…..I mean the country was full of army, of vehicles, of stores…..And they built up, it's not…..And you get used to it, it's a gradual build - up. And you see different armaments and even for kids, you know, it's interesting. New vehicles come on the road and you climb on them and it's all excitement. I remember the first time I saw a jeep. It was such an old looking vehicle. I thought – Oh, they are bringing out vehicles from the First World War. It looked so old-fashioned. Now we got used to it. I was sure it was something brought from twenty years previous.

Q.: So Victory Day?

A.: Victory Day of course once again, we realized, it opened up a new era for all of us.

Q.: But were there any celebrations in the village?

A.: No.

We went down to London and so on.

Q.: You did.

A.: Yes.

In the village, I mean, I'm sure there were celebrations, but not organized.

Q.: So you went to celebrations in London?

A.: Yes.

Q.: In London they did have people crowding in the streets.

A.: Exactly. We just joined the crowd. We didn't do anything joing. Also in the official VE Day, when the flags were up and so on, we went to London to join in the crowd I mean.

Q.: So the war is over. What happens next? You continue living in the Cedars House.

A.: Yes.

At the age of fourteen of course school is over. That was the age except for those who got a scholarship by passing exams, only a small percentage.

Q.: But when you say: "School is over," it's not high school.

A.: No. No. That's it.

Q.: That's it.

A.: That's it unless you pass an examination, which I didn't.

Q.: But before that, the war is over, everyone thinks or you think – O.K. the war is over. Now, my mother is going to come or I'm going to find my mother.

A.: Yes. I will find out what happened.

Q.: So what happened, you think?

A.: I think at that time it had already percolated through that most Jews had perished. That they had already…..

Q.: Did it come as a shock because you said in the Estate where you lived you were isolated and you knew the news, what was happening in Britain.

A.: Yes.

Q.: But you didn't know of Auschwitz, you didn't know of Treblinka. When did you learn about what had happened?

A.: Before the end of the war we already knew because as they were advancing pictures came out, and the only pictures live were horror. And when you saw pictures, you just hoped you wouldn't see your mother there or anyone you knew.

Q.: And at that point it filtered through your mind that she had not….

A.: That the chances are slim.

Q.: Now did everyone start looking through records? Because, you know, they were publishing all kinds of things.

A.: No, that…..

Q.: Did they take care of it?

A.: They took care of it.

Q.: And they told you at a certain point? Did they find our?

A.: At a certain point, don't ask me exactly when, Mrs. Steinhardt (Mr. Steinhardt had died already quite early on in the war) that they received information that my mother died, she had been killed.

Q.: So what details did you learn?

A.: No details.

Q.: You didn't know the details at that point: When? Where? What had happened to her?

A.: Details I only knew when I was here from Yad Vashem. It was in the book.

Q.: How many years later was this?

A.: Oh, many years.

Q.: What did you learn?

A.: The assumption is that she had been deported in 1942 with the mass deportation from Frankfurt am Main to the east.

Q.: And you don't know where in the east she was deported.

A.: No.

And then my assumption, although we looked obviously through the Red Cross, there is no date of birth and nobody who knew her or saw her or anything.

Q.: She just vanished.

A.: She vanished. And you assumed that ….

Q.: ….She was shot.

A.: And you just hoped it wasn't a lengthy process.

Q.: Do you think she was deported to one of the camps?

A.: I would have thought…..Don't forget she wasn't a well woman anymore, she would come out of hospital. I doubt if she was strong.

Q.: How old was she?

A.: She would have been forty eight, something like that, forty nine.

The only chance she had was that she was a good seamstress and would have been used for labour force. But….

Q.: When you heard of it, was there a period of mourning or anything?

A.: No. No. No.

Q.: You just put it aside. You were going on with your life.

A.: I wasn't going on. I put it aside. I has been a gradual process over years.

Q.: But still there must have been a fantasy that maybe one day I will see her.

A.: I don't think there was, no. That was very cold and cruel, but that's the way it was, like you see someone with a serious illness slowly fading away and accepting even. Right, there are situations where you hope, but you realize there is not much sense in hoping.

Q.: Right. But because you were still living on the Estate, you felt safe, it wasn't: "Oh, what am I going to do now? I'm an orphan."

A.: No. No. No.

Q.: It was a bit that kind of sense.

A.: I was basically an orphan before that. I mean, I had no contact….no. And I was in acceptance of…..

Q.: But you mentioned that there were cases in which parents did survive and come to pick their children.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Did you witness such cases?

A.: No, I heard of or from the children. I know that some ended up in America mainly…..

Q.: Meeting with your parent wasn't an easy process…

A.: It wasn't easy at all and it carried on because a contact had been broken; there wasn't a language; there wasn't a common memory. The parents were almost strangers.

Q.: The parents had gone through horrible things.

A.: As you say, parents…..and you hear that over ….And I can understand it, I didn't experience it: "Who is this man?" or "woman?" Can't really communicate with them.

Q.: A lot of tragedies.

A.: Yes, that would be a terrible ….

Since then I have thought what would have happened, what would have had in common because I mean I saw, when I came to Palestine, I met my aunt who had been very close to my mother.

Q.: Eva, right?

A.: Eve, Eva, right. I saw that I had nothing in common with her including language, including the whole attitude. I already had this what I call English culture behind me.

Q.: You felt British.

A.: Well, I was always aware that I wasn't British, yes, you know.

Q.: But when you heard of the kids whose parents did survive did you feel jealous of them?

A.: I don't think so. I would be glad for them. ….No. No.

Q.: So some left the Estate after the war.

A.: Yes. Yes.

Q.: And do you remember how many children were left there, still lived on the Estate?

A.: In the end five or six.

Q.: Of you….

A.: This Hans Bodenheimer who came to Israel.

Then mostly the others ended up in the States because of family. Those who remained in England – none of them married Jewish girls incidentally, not a single one.

Q.: It wasn't in such a way that the war has ended and the people taking care of you said: "O.K. the war has ended, now you have to find your own way."

A.: No. No. No.

Q.: It was clear that they are still taking care of you.

A.: Yes, there was no…

Q.: So you finished school. Could you enter high school?

A.: No. No.

Q.: Because?.

A.: Because I hadn't passed the exam.

Q.: So what were your plans forward?

A.: My excuse is not that I was not brainy enough, A. that basically we started later and I was a terrible dreamer.

Q.: You were roaming.

A.: I was never there.

And interesting my dreams were to do with the war. Already then I had a submarine, whatever you can call it, which goes underwater, under…..most probably from comic books.

Q.: Jules Verne.

A.: Jules Verne.

And I had read a lot actually, also war stories, children's Beagle Books if it means anything to you, and of course…..

Q.: So what did you want to be?

A.: I was going, funny enough, under sea through the war through to Europe to fight my own little war, to command…..

Q.: Was this a revenge, something of that sort, wanting to revenge?

A.: Yes. I should imagine revenge.

In my dreams, I think, I was quite a commando unit on my own, getting people out, revenge – yes, all combat….

Q.: Do you know that there were Jews who organized and revernged.

A.: Yes. Yes. Yes. I know of some of them, yes. This was already during the war.

And I read the book of …..from the French Revolution – Scarlet Pimpernel, you know, who went over from France to bring out royalist French. I was the Scarlet Pimpernel. I was Scarlet Pimpernel. Well, I was in the right direction. And when we come further on, you will see that I was able to carry out some of my dreams funny enough.

So I wasn't in this world in school, I really wasn't. That I put down more as the lack of brains, but it could be a bit of both of course, we will never know.

So when it came to leave school, we were given the opportunity to start. I don't think we ever discussed as such. The first opportunities was what was around us.

I was one of the youngest. So some of them already left school. Two became pastry cooks and did very well. And all were very ambitious. All realized they were on their own and they had to get on. And time proved that it worked.

Another one worked in the Ford Garage. Rolf Decker worked in the Ford Garage. Some worked with the Margulies in their factory in Ayelsbury producing goods for the Air Force mainly. Some stayed on the farm. Hans Bodenheimer became a gardener on the Estate.

And I for whatever reason wanted to be an electrician. And there already Palestine came in.

Q.: That's what I wanted to ask you if there were any Zionist Movements?

A.: Yes. We went to one Habonim camp. I don't remember how it was arranged, but we ….

Q.: So it went to Palestine.

A.: I was already for sure on my way to Palestine.

Apropos feeling British – I was very patriotic, but I knew I would never be British.

Q.: Besides the summer camp of Habonim were there other activities with other Zionist movements?

A.: No, not in Waddesdon.

Q.: But it was clear to you that you want to come to Palestine.

A.: Yes. At that time it was….

Q.: Even though we don't have a state until 1948. Were you aware….?

A.: It was clear I was going. And the attraction was Palestine. And I had an address. The fact that I had an address – Eva and Hans was enough.

Q.: At this point you were 15 – 16 – 17. Were you more aware of the politics between Palestine and Great Britain?

A.: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Q.: And you felt angry at the British because they didn't open the gates after the end of World War II?

A.: I'm not sure. I should have been.

I would go when I was in London – I would go to Hyde Park. There were two very good speakers: Major Weiss and another one from the Navy. And they were right wing which I can't claim to be. And they came out in force and spoke for Palestine, against Britain. And even when the Sergeants were hanged by the "Etzel", when there was fear of demonstrations, they came out and talked. And I kind of felt association by being there. I couldn't contribute other than standing in the crowd.

Q.: So did you study how to become an electrician?

A.: Yes.

So my first job was to be apprenticed in the Manor which had a quite large power station, generators and so on to supply power to the Mansion and the Estate.

Q.: Were you paid?

A.: Yes, I got (…) a month. And I was apprenticed to what they call – the resident engineer.

Q.: And you lived in the same residence.

A.: Yes. I would walk up to the Manor which wasn't far. And the job was to maintain the power.

Q.: So you got a profession.

A.: Yes, and to learn from the resident engineer – Mr. Laybourne. The job was to maintain electricity in the Mansion. So I had a free access in and out of changing whatever needed changing from barbs to switches to ….small electrical jobs maintenance which needed doing and as I say, the power station.

Now the Mansion was attached to the National Grid, but at times of for instance Mr. Rothschild had an operation taking place in the Mansion. So we stood by in case there was a power failure. And if there were a power failures, this was running.

During that time also radios took quite a long time to warm up. And Mr. Rothschild was an impatient man. So he had a battery radio on TC Electric which came on instantly, which needed batteries' charging. So I would charge the batteries.

Q.: How long did you do this, for two or three years?

A.: Yes.

Q.: Until you made Aliya?

A.: No. No. No.

As I say, I learnt there and then decided I had to learn one stage further. An interesting thing while working there was I took up photography.

Mr. Laybourne was given the task of going through albums of manors in Europe in order to photograph furniture and antique pieces which had been stolen by the Germans. And the Rothschilds were claiming them back. It was after the war, just after. So we were photographing from the albums, developing them. What happened afterwards – I assume they got back. That was an interesting sideline which was my first go at photography and also made life a little bit more interesting.

At some stage I decided I had learnt what I had to learn, what I could learn there and I decided to go to study on electricity in London. At that time incidentally I was also studying at night classes in Ayelsbury. I was cycling twice or three times a week in the evening to do what they call evening classes.

Q.: In what year did you move to London?

A.: To London I moved….I hope I don't get the dates wrong because ….

Q.: In 1948?

A.: In 1947, somewhere in the summer.

Q.: So now that you moved to London are you on your own or they still support you?

A.: I'm on my own.

Q.: You are eighteen years old.

A.: I'm on my own – 17.5 – 18. I say 'Goodbye'. I get references from Mr. Laybourne, from Major Woolf very nice. I say 'Goodbyes' but the kind of Goodbyes that I know I will be visiting, you know. It's still my home, although I don't live there.

Q.: So you rented a place in London and you got a job?

A.: So I got….one of the boys who had moved to London whose mother had survived, actually she had come to England as a domestic servant. And there already there were quite difficulties between the son and the mother. The mother had left behind her daughter who was about to matriculate. And she left her behind with a grandmother in order that she finishes school.

They were caught up. The son, the brother, the younger brother could never forgive the mother for misjudgment. I mean she did what was at the time the best. "Let her finish her studies and then come over."

And there was never a good relationship between the mother and the son although he moves in with…..in London, that's (….).

Q.: So you lived with them?

A.: No. No. No. I had visited them a number of times.

He had gone after the Blitz, when what they call the 'Doodlebugs' the rockets were falling and had been bombed out Incidentally. He ended up in a bed hanging from a side of a wall, just an interesting sidelight and he had found a room for me. I went in. I stayed there only a few days because it was in the back of a railway yard. I came from a village – fresh air. All of a sudden all night trains were coming by.

(…) Don't forget there were coal fire, steam engines. I felt dirty all night and next day. I finished my week rent and moved out and found another place.

Q.: And you found a job?

A.: Yes. Also through here I had gone through the Refugee Committee in London and they put me in touch with a Jewish firm, also refugees –aunts. There was a shop – electric comfort. (I had a job found) and I joined them already as a junior electrician and worked with….

Q.: Were you also thinking of going into the army or your focus was Palestine?

A.: No.

I tried to join, I don’t know if I mentioned, I tried to get in to Mahal – Mitnadvei Hutz LaAretz. And I had gone to 77 Great Russel Street where Ms. or Mrs. Warshawsky was representative. And after meeting some of the ….or a couple of the boys from the Jewish Brigade, I went to…..

Q.: I'm curious to know what was your motivation in coming to Palestine because actually you never grew up…..

A.: Find a home.

Q.: You didn't grow up in a Zionist atmosphere….

A.: I did….

Q.: And you had a good experience with the British.

A.: I did.

Q.: So what motivated you to come to Palestine?

A.: A. Motivated me that since childhood I was on the road to Palestine because with my mother (I don't know if I mentioned it)….

Q.: Yes, you did.

A.: I always said: "Are we going to join….?" To me it was getting out of the pressure of Germany, I'm sure and joining the only family I knew.

Q.: Was it sub-consciously also fulfilling your mother's wish, you think?

A.: I would like to think it was, but it was also to me….to me it was an end station. There was no doubt, I didn't need JNF pamphlets or anything, I was going to Palestine.

Q.: Do you remember the Declaration of the State of Israel in 1948?

A.: Yes. Of course.

Q.: Did you celebrate?

A.: I would go also to meetings, you know, to all sorts of Jewish meetings. I wasn't organized. I was never a great believer in organizations any way. I was a loner and stayed a loner, but I would join celebrating groups.

Q.: So after the war didn't you have this feeling that you are alone in this world?

A.: Yes, I was. Yes, of course I was.

Q.: But it became natural for you.

A.: It became natural and I knew I would have to manage the time of ….how would the word be? I think when we parted, I realized the day when I had…..Well, there is a word which I can't find…..that I would be accepted whatever had gone. And now had to be my prove myself. Only with your immediate family will you know you will find acceptance whatever you are, whatever you do.

Q.: But that's at a very early age to experience such a feeling.

A.: No, but I felt it because it ….

Q.: Under the circumstances.

A.: I think. Maybe I'm talking about (now) imagination, but I think I found that this today I have to pull my own way to have to find my own way.

Q.: And you are responsible for yourself.

A.: Of course. Yes. Right.

So as I say, they put me in touch with the aunts, a small business. Now I worked there and they accepted me also pretty much. They didn't have children. They were from Berlin and I was the only Jewish boy working there. We had lots of Jewish customers, an area - all refugee customers.

Q.: Did you still speak German?

A.: No, with them I….

Q.: Did you understand?

A.: Yes, I could understand.

It doesn't come, like to this day it doesn't come…..

Q.: So you work in that business until 1950?

A.: Until 1950. From there I went on Aliya.

Q.: Did you make Aliya on your own or with a group?

A.: No, on my own.

Q.: On your own.

A.: Just coming back about accommodation – the Refugee Committee also introduced me to an elderly couple, a refugee couple who were renting out rooms in London, Swiss Cottage Area, Finchley Road Area. And I became their lodger and also pretty much part of the family. Evidently I have kind of character I can fit in and people accept me for what I am.

Q.: They adopt you.

A.: They adopt me, yes.

Also they had no children, they were….So I had a good accommodation and I had also ….I would be on bicycle, cycling to work. Much of my time was on my bike also weekends. I would meet up with the friend I mentioned also still from Waddesdon and the Stiftung. Apart from that my fellow workers from Electric Comfort – two young men just out of the army – one had been to Palestine as a soldier. So I find interesting his experiences. (…What he would say was) pro-Jewish or pro-Arab, we had said Pros of both of you because he had already been during the troubles but it was very nice, very nice together.

Q.: Let's talk about your …..but short. You came in 1950 on your own.

A.: Yes, on my own.

Q.: In short, where did you go?

A.: On my way over, on the boat – 'Kedma' I met a number of returning Mahalniks. I was mentioning that I had gone to 77 Great Russel Street and I said so ….Ms. Waslawsky she said: "Well, you have no army training. You come now. There is nothing really for you to go. You are studying electricity, finish your studies and then you can contribute to the army." That was true. Actually today, see all those Mahalniks at their (….) units in the British and other armies.

Any way on the 'Kedma' I met a group. They were a group of ex-Mahalniks who had gone back home on home leave after the war, after they had fought and they were returning as Olim within Zahal.

And they were talking of a group who were going to settle on the land. There was going to be building and agricultural cooperative: building, electricity – what I had studied. And I had that in mind.

Q.: And you were attracted to that.

A.: Yes, I was also looking, I presume, for connections somehow.

I came to my aunt and uncle, that was the address. You see, I missed out the trunk after the war.

Q.: O.K. Do you want to tell us about it?

A.: After the war when I was informed my mom would not be returning and she had been deported they said: "You have a trunk in the house of your mother's. You are allowed to use it."

And it was given to me. And obviously what will I find inside? I found inside all personal clothing, from underwear……

Q.: Personal clothing of your mother?

A.: Of my mother (….) which would suggest that she had a good reason ….

Q.: It must have been very emotional to get this trunk.

A.: Yes.

With things which I was disappointed not finding, which I remember from home. There were some pictures of….I didn't know who they were.

Q.: Do you know today?

A.: Also not. I went to Eva and she wasn't sure.

Some – yes, I know. I know as a child I envied a cigarette case, that was shiny and so on. You know how people used to have cigarette cases and I would have liked that as a memento.

Q.: And that wasn't in?

A.: That wasn't there, no. Which brings me to cigarettes. Sorry, it's important because it's a part of the character building.

Soldiers were coming back. As kids, boys, teen-agers we started smoking behind the trees and so on to be men. That was our standard – if we smoke we were men. And soldiers were coming back from the war, from occupied Germany. And they were telling me or us: "This camera or like a camera we got for a packet of cigarettes," and "This we bought for two packets of cigarettes." And they talked of the demand of cigarettes and coffee which people were prepared to sell themselves, sell their daughters, sell their most priced possession for cigarettes. I said: "I'm never going to smoke. I will never become addicted to something which I can do without. Coffee – I like even though it wasn't that prominent in the list, although it was. And I can do without coffee.

Q.: It taught you a lesson.

A.: It taught me a lesson.

CD Number 5

A.: O.K. as I said, since then I would never smoke or get addicted to. And if I have to take medicines which over time I have had, I find it very difficult. I say: "Now I'm dependent on this little pill or…." Of course in the end cigarettes I manage to do without, but not all medicines are….But at the moment….

Q.: So you have never smoked since then.

A.: No. No. No. I never smoked.

Q.: So you have a very strong personality.

A.: No, because it's not so difficult I think once you don't ….But it was all a part of this not being dependent or any substance or for that matter.

Q.: It could be also your survival, le'ts say, that you knew that you had to survive and you can't be dependent on…..

A.: True. Also not to be dependent on anything because you don't know where it is the following day and to some extent on people. Although over time….

Q.: Although you had also good experience with the Rothschilds who supported. (….)

A.: No, I agree over time….also with people I have only had good experiences, I must say.

Q.: But still you knew that you were responsible for yourself.

A.: Yes. Yes.

Q.: And you are dependent on yourself.

A.: I'm dependent on myself and I keep to control basically.

Q.: So you came with a group and you decided to join them?

A.: No.

So I went to my uncle. They tried to find jobs for me. I went to the Electric Company, but I didn't have any relatives there either. So I wasn't accepted. I tried a little….

Q.: What we call in Hebrew a Protektzia.

A.: A Protektzia, exactly. Or once again maybe I wasn't suitable, I will never know.

And I started visiting this group which were in what is now Al-Shaykh Muwannis

Q.: Al-Shaykh Muwannis is now Ramat Aviv.

A.: Ramat Aviv.

In a house which is now in the campus of Museum Haaretz.Ethnological Museum.

I visited. I could see myself fitting in there. I was looking for family, I assume, or a group to belong to.

Q.: Were they a part of Habonim?

A.: No, they were independent. They were in contact with the Ministry of Defense because they were resettling soldiers and in contact with the Jewish Agency and Mahal.

And there I started working out and bringing ….some were, in fact most were working out in Solel Boneh, learning building trades and so on. And they built the road passing Ramat Aviv, laying down.

Q.: So you were working with Solel Boneh?

A.: No, I got a job or they got a job for me with the telephone people. And I worked in Rehov Mikve Israel in telephone exchange.

Q.: Did you know Hebrew when you came?

A.: No. No, it was all in English. I knew the Alpha-Beth, no.

We were all English speaking group incidentally.

Q.: Did you have contact with the Sabras, the Israelis?

A.: Not at that time.

Q.: Not at that time.

A.: No.

We were all English speaking group. In fact throughout my…..I seem to have mixed more with English speaking.

Q.: But I wanted to ask how did the Sabras receive you?

A.: Now, whoever received me and who heard I came from England like to this day would say: "Lama Bata?" ("Why did you come?")

Q.: Did they know your story? I mean did they know that you were actually born in Germany and you whole….?

A.: No. If it came up, I would say. But even if I could go into a taxi and at the time there were a lot of German speaking taxi drivers and I would speak in German, they would say: "What kind of German are you? It's a mixed English." And I would say: "I had come on…."

Q.: I'm asking it because you probably have heard that other survivors who came from the camps – the way they were received, treated is….at that time they didn't feel there was openness to hear what they had gone through.

A.: No.

A. I didn't talk about myself, unlike now….

Q.: Why?

A.: I don't know, I'm not kind of…..To me that's an Americanism when you sat next to one and you had given your whole life story.

Q.: It's not you.

A.: It's not me; It's not English; It wasn't anything and still isn't to this day, unless in a forum like this.

But I wasn't seen as a refugee, I was seen as English.

Q.: Or as a survivor perhaps.

A.: No. No.

Q.: Did you meet Holocaust survivors when you came?

A.: Yes, my aunt.

Q.: But your aunt came to Palestine before the war.

I'm talking about those who came after the war.

A.: Yes, but she was surrounded by her….

Q.: Relatives?

A.: Not relatives but friends and so on who lived off Ben Yehuda, on Gordon Street on Ruppin Street to be exact. And I went there. I stayed there some time until I moved to …..

Q.: Did you speak to them? Did you question them? Did you talk about what they had experienced?

A.: No. No.

Q.: You did not talk about it.

A.: No.

I also didn't want to be …..

Q.: Identified with them?

A.: Yes, most probably.

I didn't feel a survivor as such, although obviously I was. I didn't feel….how would you say, (one of the words which fail me)….No, I was in the world wherever I mixed because of the English, I was considered an English Oleh, as such a curiosity: "Why did you come?" I mixed with an English crowd.

Q.: So you joined them where they settled eventually?

A.: They were in Al-Shaykh Muwannis.

Then eventually …..And it was a Graiin, it was meant to settle. And a few places were offered to us. Eventually Kfar Daniel which was then on the Jordan border was offered, attracted, once again because it was a challenge. And also other places offered …..

Q.: It is close to Latrun, right?

A.: By Hatzor, Ben Shemen, yes.

And it was a challenge. It was on the Jordan border with a lot of problems at the time of infiltration and so on.

And as I say, there I started working on the actual settlement. I also got a number of positions – Gisbar and all sorts of also management roles, I was made charge – don't ask me how and why of the security which dealt with night guards.

It was a Moshav Shitufi, a commune. As I always said…..

Q.: Only British Jews or also….?

A.: Australians, Canadians, Americans.

Q.: Anglo-Saxons.

A.: At that stage all still English speaking. Everything was in English. And as I say the jobs that I got were always put down to the fact that it was more availability than capability, so you know.

Q.: And you had farming also?

A.: Yes.

You had a limited choice, right.

Q.: You actually came during the Tzena.

A.: Yes.

And I must say, that I remember I asked myself…Tzena was just finishing in England, and you could get sweets and so on.

Q.: After the war.

A.: Yes.

And all of a sudden I come and I start another period of austerity, of Tzena. So in that case…..But I found home, no…..

Q.: But did you feel at home?

A.: Yes.

Q.: You did.

Yes. And to this day I feel at home with many feelings of….I'm not sure if I really belong. There are many parts of me which…..

Q.: How many years did you live there? Until when did you live here?

A.: Thirty three years.

Q.: On the Moshav?

A.: On the Moshav. Although I started travelling. First I got a Shlichut for a youth group.

Q.: Sochnut?

A.: Yes, for two years. I came back.

After two years I was sent out again. Maybe they didn't know what to do with me on the place for the Tnuat HaMoshavim for Aliya.

Q.: Where to?

A.: To England in both cases.

Q.: To London?.

A.: Yes. Yes. Yes.

And in London I was picked up by the Embassy to help with something. And eventually they said: "Oh, you have to stay," when my two years were up, "You have to stay here. You are a part of the establishment of…." So I said: "No, I'm not staying. I don't want to be seen as a Yored who is working in the Embassy, in the Press Department. I will go back. If you want me, I will come back. I will get the O.K. of the Meshek," I was still a member of Kfar Daniel which I remained for thirty three years with all the coming and going.

Then from London after a period of time I was asked to move somewhere else, that's all a part of a story. I became a part of the Prime Minister's Office whatever, where I….

And the point of interest after many years and I would always come back to Kfar Daniel and my yanks there were my neighbour's family.

Q.: You never got married during those years.

A.: No, I was too busy running around, that's my excuse. And I also couldn't tie myself down. So one could choose what…..

And my yank, the two neighbours – we had individual houses, and we became very close. I would eat there.

Q.: And they became like your family.

A.: And they became not like, they became my family.

Q.: Both sides?

A.: Yes, at time, but in time also with the children growing up they saw me as an uncle. And at one time I got the title of Sabba Spare, of a spare grandfather. I accept it whatever.

Q.: We have a spare tire and they have a spare grandfather.

A.: Yes, I was their…..So much so, that when the first generation.

Q.: What's the name of that family?

A.: Tunis.

The originals of this family were Joe and Shoshana Tunis.

Joe died in the meantime and with Shoshana – I'm still in contact. She is in a sheltered housing.

And I became the Sandak of the first born. Eventually I became Sandak of his son and I eventually became the Sandak of the son's son, of the great-grandchild. So I really entered to such an extent that to my surprise and humility I must say. One day as the one got married, Yuval, he said that he also wants to also incorporate my family name in the…..So I didn't know how to take it because, I mean, I don't feel it's my due.

Q.: We didn't mention it but at a certain stage you took an Israeli name, you became Uri Sella.

A.: Yes. Uri came from Ully. Sella - I picked when I joined the….It was Ben-Gurion's time we had to…. And also my name was very awkward always for myself even – to explain it, to spell it.

Q.: It was Ben Guriion's demand also.

A.: Demand.

So I changed it to a short name starting with 'S'. I'm not sure if I would have taken Sella.

Q.: Did you know Ben-Gurion personally?

A.: Yes. I have a picture with him.

Q.: I saw you in pictures.

A.: Not intimately, but yes…

Q.: Can you tell us anything of your work? or not at this point.

A.: Yes. I just finish with the name.

And only a few months ago the second son whose name is Ommer Tunis was getting married. He is a pilot in the Air Force. We had supper together with his fiancé who I also know. And he said: "Do you mind if I take on, incorporate your name?" I'm flabbergasted, I don't know how to take it. I don't feel that it's due to me, that Magia Li.

Q.: That it's perhaps something….You didn't have your own children, right?

A.: Right.

Q.: So there was someone carrying on for your family. Think of your parents.

A.: Yes, but my name isn't even any roots to it other than that.

And after that the original wife said: "Oh, yes Mickey," to the father now, difficult to go back, "wanted to take….came to us years ago and wanted to take your name." So I asked him: "Did you have anything to do?" He said: "No, nothing," he assured me he had nothing.

So I accept it. It's lovely. The wedding is tomorrow evening.

Q.: Mazal Tov!

A.: So I have got another…..

And then I have the family of my wife whom I knew when I was (but not in the Biblical term) I knew when I was a Shaliakh to a youth movement – Young Poale Zion.

Q.: In London?

A.: In London.

I was at her wedding. As I was retiring and she had divorced, we met up, funny enough, by chance in a Café on Ibn Garibrol called Ness, Ness of all things – miracle. And we got married after I….And that's also….

Q.: In what year did you get married?

A.: In 1997.

Q.: In 1997.

A.: In 1997.

Q.: Her name?

A.: Chava.

Q.: Chava Lebeit?

A.: Chava King- Sella.

So I also got her family and they have accepted me, adopted me. It isn't always the case with the second marriage. So now I ended up with two families, a big family.

Q.: A happy man, yes.

A.: So people ask: "Do you regret not having your own children?" I don't think I'm egotistic enough to think it's all that important you as the connection is important (…) I'm not the biological, really… I think I'm basically also…..

Q.: Perhaps it's also something that you experienced. You got care and love also from people around.

A.: No If this towards the end, I must say, throughout my life with a bad beginning I have only come (….). 'only' – find all stops in my life I found people who liked me, cared for me and I feel reciprocated.

Q.: Do you feel lucky?

A.: Yes, I feel lucky.

I often ask myself it it's something also in me, I would like to think, who knows?

Q.: Did you ever go back to Germany?

A.: Yes, with Chava.

Q.: And that was the first time?

A.: Yes.

Q.: That was your first time with all your travelling?

A.: No. No. That's not true.

In fact now I come to the point. In 1985 was the first time I went back and I was working. And I ended up in Frankfurt am Main.

Q.: Where you were born.

A.: Where I was born.

And I was going to Sudan to help the Falasha Jews get to Israel in the Mivtza to bring……

Q.: It was Mivtza Shlomo or Moshe.

A.: Mivtza Sholomo, ken. Well, we called it Achim at the time with the beginning from the Sudan which was secret and was carried out by us.

And I started the journey….I of course couldn't come from Israel directly. I came via Frankfurt am Main which was of course most convenient to carry on with it.

Q.: How did you feel?

A.: Well, and there I ended up on my way to the airport leaving at the Frankfurt am Main Railway Station to get there. And I look up and I had no….And I thought.

Q.: You had memories?

A.:Yes. I know exactly this station.

Q.: So you could recognize it.

A.: Yes.

Q.: That's the moment where you left you mother.

A.: This is where I left as a refugee from Germany. It sounds….I must ….And now I'm going to do my little bit not knowing exactly what waited me to help other Jewish refugees. And that ended up…..

Q.: It closed the circle?

A.: It closed the circle unintentionally.

Q.: How symbolic.

A.: How symbolic. I went to Frankfurt am Main, I went to the station.

Q.: You started your journey as a refugee and you are going to help.

A.: Now I have a very good memory in photography. And another thing I pointed out to Chava which platform we left from to go from Frankfurt am Main to England. And to make sure I was correct we went to the Information and I said: "Where do the trains leave from to go to the Hoek van Holland?"

Q.: Do they still leave from the same place?

A.: Of course because railway lines don't change that quickly. And where I pointed out is where we left. So I was …..

Q.: Did you also go to your house in Frankfurt am Main?

A.: That was at a later stage. I went with Chava. We did a route journey.

Q.: Did you recognize it?

A.: No. I had the address and we went to the Philanthropin, to the school and to the Stiftung.

Q.: It's what we call 'Bikkur Shorashim'.

A.: "Bikkur Shorashim'.

I can't say I felt Shorashim anymore.

Q.: But how did you feel towards the Germans?

A.: Well, it's difficult for me today to treat any German under my age differently. In fact, I must say, I appreciate the effort which you see everywhere they have made to recognize the evil deeds as they were – plaques which call of Nazi murderers and not just glossing over. And that I recognize.

People my age and over of which there aren't so many around – I question. And talking of memory, I don't think….When we went back there, I remembered (Correct me if I mentioned it) of a dream I also had….(Did I mention it?)

Q.: You could tell us again.

A.: Well, I wasn't sure if it was a dream or not where I was running away from a group on bicycles ….

Q.: Yes, the alley….

A.: The alley and the playground.

Q.: You could recognize it.

A.: And when I went back there, I knew by chance, because the address given to us had been in the Court Case given by my father as a recommendation and so on. And true enough this is so. That picture I have clear. Names – I don't remember.

Q.: It 1960 ten years after you made Aliya you were still in Israel or by then you were back in London? I'm asking about this year because that's the year when the Mossad caught Eichmann.

A.: I was in Israel.

Q.: You were in Israel.

A.: I didn't go there, but I followed it on the radio.

Q.: You followed the trial. We are talking about the trail in Jerusalem.

A.: Yes.

Q.: You followed it on the radio.

A.: Yes. Of course.

Q.: What did it do to you? Did it open up things?

A.: It's funny. My attitude was completely unrealistic that when he was tried and found guilty….I say, it's just my….it was a bit crazy, now I realize. Send him out in the world. Nobody would ever want to deal with him, nobody would….. He would be an outcast, and not kill him. What's the sense of it?

Today of course I changed my mind. They did the right thing. He would have been accepted. He would have been…..

Q.: He lived in South America.

A.: Yes. O.K. But he would have been after the trial, when he was found guilty, he would also have been accepted and fitted by plenty of people. And I am somewhere an idealist and not a realist and that's all.

Q.: Where you involved in the search for other Nazis or war criminals?

A.: No. No, that wasn't mine….No, I wasn't, no….

I had other interesting….which ….not real. Any way I was thirty three years ….I had come…. Many times I had always come back to the Meshek. And sometime I was in the office here. So at that time my salary would go into the Meshek. And I felt a part of the Meshek.

Only towards retirement I realized that there was nothing for me to do there and so on. And I was able to get this flat with the help of my aunt at the time. And I moved in. And I kept contact including last night when was there for a funeral of one of the…..

Q.: So now you have retired. What do you do with yourself today?

A.: Somehow I find to be quite busy. Nothing useful maybe but I visit friends who are out of town, we go to the cinema, go to the concert which are across the road. We go to Art Appreciation Class. We go to lectures in the university – things which are of no great use to anyone.

Q.: But for you.

A.: For me – yes.

Q.: They are very useful for you and that's important.

A.: Yes. At one time I still continued working with the Ethiopian group in Lod, but that came to an actual end.

Q.: Those you brought.

A.: Yes. That was voluntary, also meetings of the pensioners in the office.

Somehow I'm never…..and of course reading, television.

Q.: Today do you have dreams about your childhood in Germany? Does it come back to you? Do you think about it in daily life? Do you have memories?

A.: Well, only if something like If you come along of course….?

Q.: Not when I come along, but in other events does it come back to you?

A.: No.

Sometimes….There are less and less people from that period like meeting ….I will give you the address of Hannan Baum – who kind of….We have a common thread.

Q.: There are a lot of times meetings with the whole Kindertransport of course.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Do you have contact with the other kids of the Kindertransport? Do you meet with them?

I know they have a convention in these days a conference.

A.: Yes, I have been in London.

Q.: Do you go to these conferences?

A.: Yes. There was one in Yad Vashem recently.

Q.: Right, a big one.

A.: There is one in Netanya of the English group, yes. I attend in that way.

Incidentally one of the things we have had and I can bring in – Mrs. Rothschild also organized a reunion in, I think, 1985 – 1986.

Q.: Yes because I think she died in 1988 or something like that.

A.: And we all came there. We had dinner in the Mansion, planted a Cedar.

Q.: How was it to come back?

A.: That was amazing, you see that (….).

Q.: It must have been very exciting.

A.: Yes.

When I was in London in the Embassy I would see her for tea.

Q.: We are talking about Mrs. Dorothy de Rothschild.

A.: Mrs. Dorothy – yes.

And they kept contact with Hannan and myself. Also when they visited here they invited us to (….) like the opening of the Knesset and so on. They still saw us as a part.

We were also invited after she died. Her Shloshim they had a ceremony. And we also – some of the boys – were invited and we came to pay our homage.

But the reunion was great and made the head-lines of the New York Times. I still got a copy, it was great.

And when I would come for tea, of course we would speak. And she was very proud of the fact that the boys took on self operation. During the war the collection of newspapers and so on once a week would go around. And actually only the Cedars boys did it. The village boys left it, to us. She was very proud. And on her desk she had a ….We would talk a bit politics, she would have a picture of Golda Meir on her desk and one of a dog picture.

And of interest when I said I was leaving the Meshek, she said I shouldn't and so on.

Q.: She was giving you advice.

A.: She was giving me advice.

I said: "No, it's not my place anymore. I out lived it," and so on. And she offered to help me buy a flat. I said: "No. No. You have done enough." I was afraid she would think I'm keeping contact purely for what I may want.

Q.: Not that you really cared for the people.

A.: So, when I said: "No. I can be alone. I can be alone." And told me of an ambassadress she had helped, without giving names, an ambassadress she helped in getting a flat.

And at one time I thought – you know, it would have helped me a lot, but I'm very pleased I didn't because I thought on thing…..

Q.: You wanted to do it on your own.

A.: Yes, and also – what I kept contact to get something else?

I said: "You have done enough for me and for the other boys, that's it."

Q.: You didn't come from a religious home. But I want to ask you – the fact that you survived, unfortunately, you parents didn't, other family members and millions didn't. When you look at it today, how do you see it? Is it luck, chance, miracle, God's will? Do you think about that sometimes?

It could have been a very different story.

A.: Yes, for sure.

First of all, we weren't religious but we kept a Kosher home. We kept the Chaggim and went….

Q.: I mean do you see it a matter of God?

A.: No, I'm too rational for that. In as much as you can see it was because of that. So the Holocaust was because of that. I can't relate to that at all. I see it.

Q.: If there was any belief, would you say that the Holocaust undermined it?

A.: Well, it would be a factor which I say, you know, why should I believe my salvation was due to that and millions' wasn't. right? It always reminds me of a cartoon I saw of a railway accident, in the newspaper, a railway accident on an elevate railway line. And people stood over the…..And one survivor said: "God is great!" because they survived.

Well, you know, I…..

Q.: Well, some people look at it in that way.

A.: Well, that's it. They have every right to look.

I find it difficult to see the connection. I see the connection more with people helping – being the Rothschilds; being the girl who wrote a letter; being as I say, the DNA of the Rothschilds – family clan or whatever to help other Jews of the unity of the Jewish people, religious, whatever, right,.that – yes. But….

Q.: So you think it's just a matter of luck, pure luck.

A.: Yes, luck and chance by right decisions by people …..

Q.: Including your mother.

A.: Starting with my mother, starting maybe with somebody who decided the Kindertransport was a solution, temporary.

Q.: Right. By your mother's decision she saved your life.

A.: Yes. Of course, the decision of other's who created the structure of Kindertransport and the British Government who allowed in. I mean, it's a whole ring. Of course it starts…. But .it's not one person, but to link it to humanity, to people's decision and not to something which you can't explain. It doesn't need an explanation.

Q.: Today you are eighty two?

A.: Eighty two in another few days.

Q.: Another Mazal Tov.

A.: Thank you.

Q.: And thinking back from the perspective of your age, when you think back what, do you think, was the hardest thing or moment for you?

A.: I presume finding myself when I realized I was on my own.

Q.: Do you think it was after the war or at the moment you leave the train station of Frankfurt am Main or somewhere in between?

A.: Somewhere in between where I realized I have got no one to turn to other than myself and people's help. I mean, I have made full use of people's help and found it available. I unlike many people, I found people have been.

Q.: If you look at the whole period, these were the hardest times – realizing that you are alone in the world.

A.: Yes. Yes. I had no one to consult – Should I go to in Palestine? Should I stay? Should I become an electrician? Should I….? Any of these decisions.

Afterwards life flows. But in the beginning as a teen-ager, I should imagine it was very hard. And I was a loner.

Q.: Not to mention a hug, a kiss of a mother, like you said.

A.: Yes.

Q.: The British don't even expect that, but still you grow up without someone…..

A.: Yes, but at least you know, you have your family, yes, that for sure is difficult. And it can apply to people who haven't gone through what I had gone through or who lost family.

Q.: Who experience any kind of loss.

A.: Serious loss or mass loss even.

Q.: We don't speculate so much in history, but do you sometimes speculate like what would your life would haven't looked like if the war hadn't broken out; if the Nazis hadn't come into power.

A.: If I had remained in Germany?

Q.: Do you have speculations of that? Do you ever think about that?

A.: I don't develop the speculations.

Q.: You imagine your life?

A.: I find it difficult of course – what would I have been, what would I….

I have got many-many (How do I put it. I have to be careful) German qualities. I have many of the things…..

Q.: Yekke?

A.: Yekke, although I'm Polish.

Q.: Yes, but you grew up in Germany.

A.: Yes. But how much was I….I was raised in Germany. But if you ask my wife, you ask my friends – the accuracy, the….

Q.: Perhaps they are good qualities as well.

A.: Yes. Yes. Yes, it's hard to judge. My aesthetic…..

Q.: So you mostly see the Yekke in you.

A.: Yes, very much so, the accuracy, the timing – I get nervous if I'm two minutes late. Where does it come from - I do not know, I really don't, it's quiet somewhere…..As I say, it's not in my blood, I'm Polish in my….and I'm Jewish.

Q.: I do too. And I have nothing, so it might be.

A.: My aesthetics – everything has to be in place. My favourite architecture is Bauhaus after all explain it.

Q.: It can be also German culture, literature?

A.: No. Then I go to English language and so on, sense of humour, although there is a German, I would say, but mine is very English.

Q.: During the years in Israel – Yom HaShoah what we call. Is it a special day for you or not particularly?

A.: Well, it is….

Q.: For you personally, I mean.

A.: Yes, it is. I mean, I recognize that this is a….

Q.: Do you consider it a Jahrzeit for your family?

A.: Yes. And I light a candle, although…..

Q.: Have you read about the Holocaust or is it something that you didn't really want to deal with over the years, I mean?

A.: No. No. More Chava deals with that.

Q.: Chava – your wife?

A.: Yes.

Q.: She took interest.

A.: Yes. In the stories she…..

Q.: And then you started investigating your personal history, your biography.

A.: Yes, my own….. which was due to her influence. For sure I had accepted….I wasn't looking back, I accepted this is it. I went back, found my father, found where I lived.

Q.: Right, you told us.

A.: I mean we went to Germany, very thorough investigation which she started by the computer and we carried on by going back there. So that's a…..

Q.: You have mentioned already a few things that perhaps the war or before the war (because for you it began in 1933, when the Nazis came to power) that perhaps you see traces of how it affected your personality even today. For instance you mentioned the need to be independent or not dependent on someone, you know.

Can you see other things that looking backwards, your personality was expected by your childhood experience?

A.: Curious and unimportant things, for instance, I still hate crowds of protesters.

Q.: Do you think it comes from the memories of the Nazis?

A.: I'm sure, yes.

Q.: Why?

A.: for instance, we had here during the Intifada groups after a real big incident, groups shouting whatever they were shouting in unison running in packs, what I call packs.

Q.: It scares you.

A.: Yes, it was again…..

Q.: It's traumatic for you.

A.: Yes. I couldn't participate and I can't…..not just participate, I can't even…..(once again, the words, time fails me).

Q.: You can't attend or see?

A.: No.

Q.: It probably makes you very anxious.

A.: Yes, I can't feel with it.

Q.: You can't feel with the crowd.

A.: A little thing. On Yom HaAtzmaut and on Yom HaShoah on the Meshek we used to have ceremonies. And they take on a semi-military form.

Q.: It bothered you.

A.: I couldn't do – stand attention – civilian.

Q.: Even though you served in the army.

A.: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Q.: And you were an officer, right?

A.: Yes, but to march in the army – that for me was unnecessary.

Q.: Association.

A.: Or there as a civilian 'stand to attention', 'stand at ease' of what it is – I felt foolish there.

Q.: It might also be a memory of.

A.: Yes.

Another thing, fine, which is connected – people clap in unison, especially when they want an encore.

Q.: It bothers you?

A.: Yes. I don't clap it. I do the clapping, but I'm the only one in the hall you won't hear, who claps whenever he wants to clap. I'm not going to clap like everyone is clapping, right. (….) but I'm not going to give in on that.

And Chava first……And I say: "I just can't clap in a uniform." And I just….

Q.: One can understand where it comes from.

A.: Yes, I know where it comes from.

Q.: And you know the price – what it means a crowd and the power of the crowds.

A.: Yes. Yes. Yes, and therefore….. So that is definitely-definitely with me, you know.

On the other hand, I will hang out a flag when the occasion arises and feel good about it, should…. you know….But it is me.

The word I was looking for, when we came before – I never wanted to be a victim. When we came and you said: "Came into the country…."

Q.: Right. I asked how they treated you and if they saw you as a survivor.

A.: You see, my aunt for instance (and this was a different generation) would go around: "Oh, he lost his mother," and so on and made me a celebrity by a virtue of having been a victim. I didn't want to be a victim. And therefore I also understand even more those who came out of the Holocaust not wanting to talk about it. A. You don't know how they survived and what they had to do to survive first of all. And if they talked about it, they were victims. They wanted to forget all about that.

Q.: Especially at other times, these were the periods when the Israeli society tended to look at them as if they are to be blamed for being victims, which is another issue.

A.: That also, yes.

Q.: The Israeli society made them guilty.

A.: But it all comes to being a victim. Who wants to be a victim, right?

Q.: And yet the fact that people didn't have empathy to what you suffered is also difficult.

A.: Yes, I presume.

Q.: Do you see that – not wanting to tell the story also thinking that people can never understand what you went through.

A.: Yes, I understand. But that's I think already, a different period.

Q.: The feeling of being a refugee – that you can identify with.

A.: Yes.

Q.: Even though you felt very comfortable in England.

A.: I never felt it…..

Q.: But still can you sense what it means to be a refugee? Do you feel more sensitive to that issue?

A.: Yes, and I have a problem with it now.

Q.: In Israel because you dealt with refugees.

A.: Because I also see both sides, you know.

Q.: You are more sensitive.

A.: Yes, of course, I'm more ….I don't know, but there is a terrible dilemma, a terrible problem of how do you deal with those feelings, you know, throw them, do them, give them…..I don't have the answer. And one of the reasons, I wouldn't be in politics because I'm not capable of giving answers. I make decisions on an operative level, but not on…..But I understand …..

Q.: Right.

Speaking about the question of being victims, we spoke a bit of the Eichmann trial.

A.: Yes.

Q.: There was also the big issue of what they call 'the compensations', 'the Pizuyyim' , 'the Shilumim'. It was a big issue, a big dispute in the Israeli society.

Do you remember that?

A.: Of course I do.

Q.: Did you have an opinion on that issue?

A.: Well, personal Shilumim …..and I got minimum. Because of my aunt and uncle I got, I wasn't going but I should keep quiet.

Q.: I'm not asking it. I'm asking whether you had an opinion about the Shilumim.

A.: I got what they call Dummheitsgelt for the lack of education – 5000 Deutsche Marks or something.

Q.: But what did you feel about the general issue?

A.: I felt if it helped to build up the country and to make a home for those who suffered, it should for definitely go in.

Q.: You felt that the Germans should pay.

A.: I wasn't with Begin on the….

Q.: He was against that….

A.: Right.

I had a German car, I didn't feel good about it, but I did, but I was too weak, that's what I wanted. But I also saw the futility of it, for instance, the ANTs who wouldn't sell German goods in their shop in the beginning, they just couldn't and they really were serious about it. You opened a radio, it was made in England. You saw the parts inside – from Germany, you know. I wouldn't buy a car, but I would accept submarines made in Germany. Life is just more complicated. And once again, I honestly believe, that I'm not dealing with the same Germany.

Q.: It's another Germany.

A.: Yes.

Q.: It's what they call 'the other Germany'.

A.: Yes, I hope, yes.

Q.: You hope so.

A.: Yes.

Q.: O.K. Perhaps the last question or one of the last questions which has to do not with Germany, but with the Germans because as we spoke of high culture, most educated people and yet this evil.

Do you think about that? Does it make any sense to you? Do you have any explanations? Do you deal with the question – how did this come about – the same culture could be so uplifting and yet it is perhaps the most horrible ….? Do you think about this point?

A.: Yes, whenever the Holocaust comes up in definite – be it….. I kind of hopelessly: "How could anyone go about in such a systematic thing?" And a part of it (I come to the conclusion) is the German character and a part of it is the human character because it's happening in Africa all the time for instance not only in Africa.

Q.: Genocide?

A.: Yes, Genocide happened in Cambodia and it happened…. but the planning and so on is the German part.

Q.: You know, in different countries you didn't experience this because you were out of Germany before the war, Where there was the German occupation – Holland, France – we can speak of different countries – Poland for that matter. You had Polish people or Dutch people who collaborated with the Germans and turned the Jews in for money or for whatever and would kill Jews.

And on the other hand, you had their neighbour who would hide a Jew and would risk his own life to save for money or not for money.

How do you explain the phenomenon that on the same street you have a Dutch man who would risk himself and rescue Jews and a different Dutch man who would collaborate? Do you think that the rescuer has a better education, personality?

A.: Personality, personal beliefs because I often talk with Chava about it:

"What would I have done?"

Q.: Do you ask yourself that question?

A.: Yes, you see, I would say: "Would I have been brave enough to take someone in and hide them at the expense not only of myself, but of my family?"

I say – there are some things I don't have to answer.

Q.: Thank Goodness!

A.: Yes, I don't have to answer, until I come up against it.

Q.: You never know, you say.

A.: You never know. And why should I? Why should I say to myself: "Oh, I would have joined in with the Nazis," and: "I would have…."

My problem is also starting with the Nazis is not with the average person who just couldn't do anything, like it's the people who cheered them on, including right in the beginning, people who watched and cheered on the Synagogues' burning in the Kristallnacht and others who turned away, who didn't do anything, but at least they turned away and went home, right? And that applies to any act of….be it vandalism and so on. Not everyone is strong enough to stand up to a group, to a gang and say: "What do you think you are doing?!" You know, between that and encouraging by your pure presence, turn your back and go!

I at least hope that I would turn my back and go.

How active I would be in….actually being active against it, I will never know until I come up against it.

Q.: Let's hope you don't.

A.: Yes. Exactly.

Q.: You had your own share.

A.: Exactly. But when one does generalize, and for sure the Germans seem to be a characteristic or it was of following of wanting to be led or having this mentality of 'the State is right and I'm here only for the State'.

Q.: The Fascist kind.

A.: Yes, the individual is unimportant. And of course there were some who were characteristic, but it is an individual thing, but a characteristic seems to be like our characteristic of being argumentative and not being, how can I put it, not being group oriented in that way. There is a strength in this case, you can't carry out anything because people won't agree, right?

Q.: Right. So there is an advantage there.

A.: Yes. Yes. Yes. It's a human advantage. Yes.

Q.: Uri, you told us about your life story.

Is there anything else that you haven't talked about that you want to tell us about or share with us?

A.: No.

I say on the whole today looking back, and I can look back, I found that not only good, obviously not, but my connection with people as being positive. I always found support, not unconditional. The word I was looking for is unconditional love. That I could never find. I couldn't expect it. I had to work for it, unlike and that's what (….).

Q.: And that we know as parental, unconditional love.

A.: Yes. That you can only get from parents.

Q.: Right.

A.: Everyone else will judge you, judge you before they can….right, including your partner in life, right? They can't take you unconditionally. That's why there are so many divorces, because they are not taken unconditionally.

Q.: And ending this interview would you like to say something to the young generation, your family perhaps? Would you want to convey something of your own experience? What would you wish for them, for you or any kind of thoughts that you have from your own life experience that you would like to share with your adopted children and grandchildren?

A.: Yes. That you are not alone in life. You are a part of things you take for granted till we reach this stage be it in technology, being in more or less use - it's all handed down and you have to contribute your part as well. I think that's the nearest ….It doesn't start with you and it shouldn't stop with you. And being helpful to others and accepting others with their quirks, you know, is a part of life, it doesn't all go one way. And as I say, everyone has something to contribute and they have to make sure that they realize that it doesn't start with you and it doesn't stop with you. And that's also a part of the interview.

Q.: Yes. So I really want to thank you on behalf of myself and on behalf of Yad Vashem for sharing your story with us, a really exciting story. I wish you all the best, good health and Ad Mea VeEsrim.

A.: Thank you. Thank you for your interest. And I find it very easy relating and talking to you. And I hope it's of interest to some people.

Q.: I'm sure it is. Thank you very much.

Picture number 1: This is a picture of my mother and my father, obviously a wedding photograph – Rachel Stobiecki and my father – Jonas Gritzmann. Incidentally (I don't know if you want that) my mother was always concerned about my ear standing out and put on a cap which my ears went back. Having seen a picture of my father, I realize why.

Picture number 2: This is a picture which I brought with me to England, the only picture, I believe, I had of my mother holding me as a few month old baby. My eyes are already very obvious there.

CD Number 6

Picture number 3: This is a picture which I found in the trunk together with some others and it was obviously taken over the Purim party. And my mother is on the bottom right hand corner, lying down. I definitely recognize her, although I never had an explanation of the picture.

Picture number 4: This is the last photograph taken of my mother. It was sent to me in England. It may have been a passport photo she took expecting to use to emigrate, I don't know, but I could definitely see the aging in her in this photograph.

Picture number 5: This is another photograph which I found in the famous trunk. It's obviously a family, but unfortunately, I have no idea who they are, whether the girl there is my mother or whoever her parents, I just have no idea.

Picture number 6: This picture I still remember and I came over with it from England. It's me in bed when I was sick or pretending to be sick. I look quite happy in it. It shows a little spoiled boy, I think.

Picture number 7: This is my first day in school, that in Germany may still be to this day – children were sent with cones of sweets. This was obviously taken in a studio before going. It looks like a good little boy going to school.

Picture number 8: This is my first school year in the school in the Philanthropin with the teacher – Mr. Silberpfenig. And I'm on the second row, right in the middle, the seventh from both sides. I have a quite naughty look on me which is a big contrast to the picture of me coming to school with the cone of sweets.

Picture number 9: This is a picture taken in Waddesdon. In the Council School. We were all lined up and taken a picture. I would be ten – eleven years old there, I think.

Picture number 10: This is in England, in the Cedars – me patting a dog. The dog was from the Cedars itself. His name was Peter.

Picture number 11: This is a picture taken in England, in front of the Cedars. It was taken by the village photographer. It's only a part of the group of course. And it was taken a bit later on. And it now hangs in the family room of the Manor, in Waddesdon and also being reproduced in books on Waddesdon. And it's quite a famous photograph in its own right. I am on the third from the left standing in the second row.

Picture number 12: This is after having set up the power station in Kfar Daniel. It's me dealing with one of the generators. I actually did the job I was trained to be.

Picture number 13: This is one of the first pictures of me, playing a diplomat, roaming the world on one of my first air-plane flights, I believe.

Picture number 14: This is a picture of Chava and myself taken just after our wedding.

Picture number 15: This is the King-Sella family taken at a gathering on a summer holiday a couple of years ago in Florida, USA.

Picture number 16: This is what I call my Kfar Daniel family at the wedding of Yuval and Tania. You also see Chava there and the grandmother – Shoshana Tunis.

Picture number 17: This is a picture of Chava's grandchildren, my adopted grandchildren. On the left the two belong to the son – Danny and on the right belong to Rachel and Rodney.