Bernard Rand

Name of Interviewee: Bernard Rand

Name of Interviewer: Miriam Aviezer

Cassette Number: VT-2097

Date: December 12, 1998

Name of Typist: Cheryl Balshayi

Names:

Kosow Mauthausen

Tobruk London

El-Alamein

Latrun

Salerno

Romello

Positano

Klagenfurt

Q: (translated from Hebrew) December 11th, 1998. Interviewing Mr. Bernard Rand, who lives in London and is in Israel as a tourist. Mr. Rand was born in 1907 in Galicia in the city Kosow and we will in particular concentrate on the story of index cards from the camp Mauthausen that Mr. Rand brought to Yad Vashem. The interview will be in English.

Mr. Rand, we would like to take you back to your home in Poland, in Galicia, and to tell us a little bit, the background.

A: I was born in a place called Kosow, which is in Galicia on the river Cheremosl, not far from Czernowitz. There my father had a little factory making carpets. I went to school for two years or so and then the war in 1914, the war broke out and my father was called up to the army. And I was the only child and my mother, we were evacuated from Kosow because it was dangerous, the Ukrainians. We were evacuated to Austria, to Oberoesterreich, near Linz. Then I was in school there. I couldn’t speak a word of Polish, only a few words of Ukrainian and Deutsch, German. I was with my mother there three years and when the war ended in, I think, 1917, my mother decided to go back - the war was over - to go back to Galicia. My father was demobbed, came back from the army, and they settled, both, in my grandmother’s home in Kosow. I was left in Germany in a school in Linz for boys. After I don’t know how long I have been there, then I went to Vienna and in Vienna I had a house with two boys, two cousins more or less my age. After being in Vienna, I finished gymnasium in Vienna and then I went to the “Hochschule Fuer Maschinenbau”. After two years, or two and a half - I can’t remember exactly - I had to go back to my family to Poland. I went back to Kosow. I couldn’t speak a word of Polish. I spoke Ukrainian and German.

Q: To which school did you go in Linz? A regular school?

A: Yes, a regular school. At Kosow I didn’t go to any school, but after a few months...my father was a bit eccentric. I was the only son, they didn’t know what to do with me. To be a businessman was alright, but to be an engineer, he needs engineers in the factory. I went back to Germany, to Chemnitz, and there I went to the “Polytechnic....Hochschule”, and I finished as an engineer, a textile engineer. After that, I came again back to my father and my father wanted me to work in the factory, but I didn’t like it. I was myself an individual. I didn’t like it. I was sure that I can make something out of myself. I knew everybody noticed, staying in a little place like Kosow, you know - eight thousand people - it didn’t suit me after Vienna and after Chemnitz and Dresden - Chemnitz is near Dresden. And then I made up my mind that I will go to live in Warsaw.

Q: Tell us what did you like to do except learning? What kind of life did you want to have?

A: I would like to have a kind of life to manage some big business or to be my own boss or something. I never in my life, until now, never had a boss, never worked for anybody. Always worked for myself. I’ve never been on a job. Never, since I was born. Even with my father. I was a few months with my father. I was sick, I couldn’t stand it. My father wanted me to produce more than a man sitting next to me. He was a worker. He worked twenty years. I couldn’t gain such speed on a machine. I didn’t like it. I didn’t like to work in a factory, I didn’ like to work in an office. I wanted to my...And then back to Warsaw. What should I do in Warsaw? I started first of all to get an agency of a factory from Kosow, and my mother, she was a bit, not very pleased with what I have done. I was the only son and my sister was born....I had a sister, seventeen years after. When I left I remember I told my mother, “Mommy, I promise you. The first money I’m going to get, I’ll buy you a fur coat.” I remember the coat, the furs were called “lopke”. And my mother was laughing. I came to Warsaw and four weeks I looked around and I was lucky. I had a very good (?) through people, friends. Very good, nice people.

Q: Jewish friends?

A: Mostly Jewish, not always Jewish. My good friend was a man called Scharf. Scharf was the owner of the (?). Another friend was, a very good friend - his father had a factory. Pharmaceutical things, aspirin, this type of things. Weinstein. He died in London. Also a very good friend. One of them is still alive, only one - lives in America in an old people’s home. He was a journalist and he was in the White House all the war, a correspondent, and he was very active on Radio Free Europe...in Poland even, to listen to what he says. This was my best friend which I am still now ringing him every two, three weeks from London. He is old. His wife died. He has no children now. And so on. And then I met a man, a young man. I was skiing in the Zakopane. By skiing, all sorts of skiing. I was a very good skier. I met a man who was the son of the biggest textile people in Europe - (?). The name of the owner was Schorr. He had two sons - one son was killed by a worker in the factory. They were employing fifteen thousand people, colossal. And he - Max was his name - he was friendly with me. I introduced him to very nice girls. I was more active than other men. And he came to Warsaw, he was staying with me - I had a lovely flat. I was living in (?). This is like Picadilli Circus it was. I had a beautiful flat with a built-in fridge which was, those days in Warsaw, something. With all the trimmings. And always had a lot of friends coming to me - parties and....

I want to tell you one thing, that in Poland I was brought up by my mother, grandmother. My mother was married when she was seventeen and I was born I think a year later or two years, a year and a half. And she was so beautiful, blonde, that when I was grown up she should take me out as her boyfriend somewhere, to a dance. My mother. I was tall. My mother was very, very good to her mother and father. Her father was typical Austrian.

And I made some money. The first big money, being the agent of this (?) factories. And I went for Pesach a year later home and I bought my mother a fur coat. I came with the fur coat and Kosow is a small shtetl and she was thrilled… But they were afraid. The tax people in Poland were very, very.....they didn’t look what we are doing in business, how we are dressed, what we are eating. And my mother, she was working.....such a beautiful coat made in Warsaw. My father will pay ten times the value in tax. She was wearing the coat only at night, not at day.

My mother came to Warsaw to visit me. I didn’t want to marry. I didn’t want to have such a lot of girlfriends, but once or twice I think I’m going to marry. I wrote my father to tell him that I’m marrying and once or twice he listened to me. But the second time I told him - the same story a year later - he put down the receiver, “I’ve heard that before.” And I didn’t marry. But the third time, when I met my late wife - she was very beautiful. She was a young actress. She was very good family.

Q: What was her name?

A: Kedaevich. And her father was a widower. Her mother died when she was young. And her father one day asked me to have a talk to me. I knew what it’s all about before, but....We went to a restaurant that was no meat, only vegetarian. He asked, “Mr. Rand, you know I am an old man and this is my only daughter,” - he had two children, a son and a daughter - “I would like to know what are your intentions? Will you marry?” I didn’t know what to say. I said yes. He asked me when. This was a terrible.....”When? I don’t know when.” But this was in December, 1938. I knew that I am going to America in ‘39, in the beginning of ‘39, from these big textile people. I was the agent. And I did not know really when. In any case, he pressed....I was...not pressed, but...

Q: You had to decide.

A: I made up my mind. I’m marrying. I think I had to leave to America on the 26th of February. To get married where? My parents are a thousand kilometers away. Kosow was far from Warsaw. And I rang up my father. My father was again angry - he wanted to put down the receiver. He said I rang him a dozen times I’m getting married and nothing. I spoke with the mother and we have decided we are getting married not in Kosow, not in Warsaw, but in Lemberg. Lemberg was halfway between Kosow and Warsaw. And the parents, they knew Lemberg better than Warsaw. And on - what was the date of the marriage? - sixth or eighth of February we went to Lemberg. I arranged before with the rabbi and the rabbi is Levin - very, very famous and...personality. I have arranged a restaurant for a party and hotel where we will stay the night. I remember even the name of the hotel. Winter was a very snow and it was very difficult and I wanted to fly, because I didn’t have a lot of time, to Lemberg. Lemberg had an airport. But the flight to Lemberg, the airplanes landed on skis. Small planes. I took the wife, her brother - her father didn’t go because he had heart trouble - and we went to Lemberg, we settled in the hotel. The next morning we went to the rabbi and everything was alright, but one thing. I forgot to buy a ring and the rabbi asked me, “A ring?” I said.... He said, “I had such a man before,” and took out from his little pocket - he had, the rabbi, a ring - and put it on my finger. And this was the marriage and then we had a dinner and the next day they went back to Kosow, my family and my sister, my mother, my father, and one friend.

Q: This was when?

A: In 1939.

Q: The month?

A: February, the beginning of February. What was the date when I married? 26th of February. Soon I left for America and I came back to Warsaw and started to prepare. My wife was in the theatre already at that time, a large part. I couldn’t have taken her with me and she couldn’t have gone. She was in a part in the theatre and she couldn’t interrupt and go to America and leave. She could, but it was not nice, and I went to America without the wife.

Q: Alone?

A: Alone. I went with a boat called “Battore”, which was very, very....the whole boat was government people or industrialists who went to have their stands. And the same I took that trip; it took several days from Gdynia in Poland to New York. And I came to New York and I was staying in the Taft Hotel, Fifth Avenue, on the fourteenth floor of something, which I was not used. After five minutes later the hotel is ringing in my room. Who knew I am here? Only the Polish consul knew. I picked up the receiver and I heard a Yiddish voice, “You are the son of Wilhelm Rand?” My father’s name was Wilhelm. “Yes.” All Yiddish. When I arrived in New York I had to go through an immigration officer and the immigration officer was the son of this fellow and he saw my passport, he saw my name, and his father was also born in Kosow. He came over lunch and told the father, “You know who’s here? Bernard Rand came.” And the father....And we had a nice time, we opened exhibition, we had a lot of parties. I stayed in America three and a half months, something like that, four months, until August. August they were talking about war and about trouble and I have to go back to Poland. I had to stay six months, but I....I took another Polish boat....On the boat...in the meantime I bought a beautiful car in America - a Pontiac sports car - and took it with me on the boat. And came back to Poland after a week of sailing and I took out the car. I knew m wife is on holidays somewhere there on the sea and I phoned the place and I phoned my wife - she was with a girlfriend there - and took her and her girlfriend and we drove back to Warsaw to her home. I had a hell of a lot to do. I brought back from America big orders. I could have made millions. To finish this off, in the meantime, I brought back....the Kosower. He invited him to the “Kosower Verein” and, you know, in America Jews ever don’t give me a dollar, two dollars for some uncle or aunt in Kosow. And I brought back a whole pack of money and I had to go to Kosow to distribute this. I had a list. I went to Kosow and the war was....and now the fifteenth or the twentieth of August. I was received in Kosow....you know, a Kosow boy came back from America, that was terrific! And went back to Warsaw again and I came with my wife to Kosow, I took her. After four days I had a terrible call for the headquarters, Polish military headquarters, which was not far from my home, that I had to report to the army, to report to him. I went to see him and “You have to go.” My regiment was a thousand kilometers away, was on the Rumanian border, where I was born. But I told him, “Look, how will I get there?” The colonel said, “By train.” He asked me if I have transport. I said, “Yes, I have got a car, a new car from America.” “Oh lovely. Then you can go, but on one condition. You take my wife with you.” Next day I reported with the car and man, a colonel, gave me a gendarme with...and the wife. The gendarme was looking at the wife and this guy sat like this in the back. He was sitting in the back and she and me in the front. My wife I couldn’t have taken for three reasons: a) the father was very ill; she didn’t want to go; b) she was still in the theatre; she couldn’t interrupt; and c) she had a young brother.

Q: This was the regular Polish army?

A: Regular. And I was sent to my regiment which was the other end of Poland, near the Rumanian border. And I arrived after travelling by car three days, I think. And the first day the Germans have already bombed (?). The middle of September. And the main thing that we became involved in was to get petrol. There was no petrol. But the gendarme who was looking after the wife of the colonel....they arranged some military stations. I had a letter from the chief of general staff in Warsaw, very big, and they gave me some petrol, and I arrived to the place where I supposed to join my regiment. The regiment is not there anymore, they left because this was very near the Ukrainian-Rumanian border. Left. Where did they go? About forty kilometers from here, to a place called Kuty. I went to Kuty and there is already some part of the regiment and there was a bridge which goes through the river into Visznitz. Visznitz was Rumanian. When I came I reported to the senior officer there and he was very delighted that I came because I could speak a little Rumanian, because I used to go to the Austrian....I was everyday there. It was twelve kilometers from Kosow to Rumania. There was a guard on the bridge, military guard, which was supposed to check everybody. Made me in charge of the guard and after arriving three hours I had the car on the other side, on the Rumanian side. And the wife of the colonel had gone with the gendarme, found some military people, some high-ranking people - they took her over. And I was standing on the bridge doing nothing. Cars came with generals, and then the Polish government passed on there. Beck, the foreign secretary. And you know, my job was...I couldn’t stop them. Nobody wanted to salute. They went over to Rumania.

Q: You were in uniform?

A: Yes.

Q: Of the Polish army?

A: Polish army uniform. Absolutely. You know, we had not coats, but cloaks. We were a regiment from a mountain, mountaineers.

Q: The war in Poland already started. Did you contact with your family? In September, when you were recruited?

A: Yes, I was in Rumania. First I visited my family before I crossed the borders of Rumania - it was very near - and asked my father, mother and sisters to come with me because I could have taken them...it was not far. It was half an hour by car. And my father, typical Austrian - he was an Austrian officer, you know. But in any case he didn’t want to go and the mother and I left and I never saw them again, never.

A few hours later, in the place of Kuty, I crossed the border on the bridge and I have been sort of in charge of the people crossing. There came thousands of people. Only with cars, not walking.

Q: Civilians?

A: Civilians. A lot of civilians, a lot of Jews, a lot of military, and all crossed to the other side of the river. I knew this little town on the other side because I used to come there with a bicycle.

Q: They crossed to which direction?

A: To Rumania. As a student I used to go - I had cousins there. And after staying on the bridge three hours, suddenly the whole Polish government has arrived - a convoy of cars. Not only cars. Lorries carrying the gold from the Polish banks, loaded the stores of gold and they crossed the bridge. I was only saluting. And after them, it took maybe an hour and a half or two hours, the Rumanian closed the ramp and that was the finish of Poland. Six hours later or less, the Ukrainians entered the whole area. We were on the Rumanian side and we heard the order to leave. Everybody could go. You know, in the army they have to give you permission. Yet everybody could go anywhere you liked and most people went to Bucharest and most people went from there, if you know geography, to the Carpathians and they crossed into Rumania - very near the Hungarian border - to the Hungarian border through the Carpathians. I used to go skiing there. I know exactly where this is. And then Hungary was still now and they could manage to get out of Hungary. Some were interned there and the Hungarians were very nice to them and they left for France. The Polish army was formed in France, not in England. And I was left in Bucharest - I didn’t want to go to France because I had a young wife left in Warsaw and I didn’t give up quickly. I will find a way maybe to get....I sent some Ukrainians, smugglers, through the river at night and I went to my father at night, when the Ukrainians were there already, and my father - I have got a letter in London, not here, from my mother, written in German. They already took away his factories - this is the Ukrainians - and they put....we had a man in the factory - his name was Herschele something…Weitzer. He was nothing, but he was a big communist. He was cleaning the toilets and the factory - nothing. They made him in charge of the factory when they came in, the Ukrainians. And the mother writes me in this letter, which I haven’t got here, I have it in London, “You can see how we are looking when Herschele is the ‘balabus’ of the factory.” Herschele was a communist before the war, he was a very lazy guy and anytime my father was Austrian punctual, Herschele was not there. Was only sitting in the toilet and reading communist papers. You couldn’t do it then. And my father did not know this and somebody who was looking for Herschel told him, “Herschel? You’ll find him in the toilets.” And my father, the Austrian, knocked on the door and said, “Herr Fleischer! Wissen sie, dass in der kommenistische Partie steht geschrieben, dass ein Arbeiter sitzt einen ganzen Tag in der Toilette unde lasst die Fabrik schwartzig?” Five minutes later Herschele came out from the toilet.

Q: So did you reach Warsaw? Did you reach your wife?

A: Yes. My wife was in Warsaw. It was ninety percent hopeless, but always a little luck. I met on the street....the Americans were still not in war because they came to war a year later. I met a chap on the street in Bucharest, near my hotel, who was the commercial attaché, American commercial attaché in Warsaw. I became very friendly before I left for the exhibition in New York. He knew my wife. He used to come to my house. I asked him and he told me he is going tomorrow back to Warsaw and I told him, “Look. What can you do for me to get Lola out?” And we were talking and he says, “Look, if you get an entry visa into any country, I can give her a passport. But a passport alone, you must have an entry visa. I can’t give her in Warsaw an entry visa into America because she has to pass through Rumania or France to go out.” In any case, entry visa. I found a Rumanian, a typical, hundred percent Rumanian, who used to come to us, to the factory. He was in Visznitz on the border. And I met him and told him the story, “Look, your brother” - his brother-in-law was in the Foreign Office, Rumanian Foreign Office and I was staying in my car, beautiful car I had in Rumania with me, and he loved it.....made a joke, “If you give me this car, I’ll arrange a visa for you.” He went back to his brother-in-law, to the Foreign Office and the Foreign Office said ... the Rumanians were not at war with the Germans in those days. And I had another friend - his wife was also in Warsaw - Feigenbaum was his name. His son is a good friend of mine. And he married - he didn’t marry. She was his girlfriend - a very big friend of my wife’s. They were both actresses, both in the same school. And she was also left in Warsaw. And there was a third man called Zeitlin - he was a doctor - and he was related to this Feigenbaum. Then I started to argue with the Rumanian - I will give him the car, but I want three visas. Now this American, he went back to Warsaw. He contacted immediately....

Q: To which embassy? On which embassy did you receive these entry...?

A: American. The American Embassy was still in Warsaw. American Embassy. He called all these three ladies, he gave them passports. And the Rumanian which I promised him the car, he gave them three visas and an American chap how to get there. You could go only to Rumania through Berlin because the train - they bought them tickets on the train to Berlin and from Berlin they came with Lufthansa, with a German air...bought them tickets to Bucharest. I was waiting on the airport. I had been informed that they would come from the Americans and the Americans were still in Rumania...(not clear). In any case, they came. My wife came a day later than they....

Q: Who came?

A: Made some mistakes.

Q: Except your wife, who came?

A: The wife of Feigenbaum - Karen was her name - and the wife of Dr. Zeitlin. He died, but she is still alive. Feigenbaum also died, but Karen, his wife lives in America and in America he had made a hell of a lot of money. He died last year.

Then she is Bucharest. The next step, how to get out of Rumania because the Germans were already near. There were two ways. One way was a Polish ship called Warsawa, was running from Constanza to Haifa, and carrying Poles, refugees and so and so. To get on this ship you need a permit from the Polish Embassy which was still in Bucharest. I came to the Polish Embassy, to the military attaché. His name was Ziune - I knew him - and asked him I want to have two visas. Not Feigenbaum. He managed to get on a boat for South America somewhere and left. And this Pole was a bit arrogant to me and I was a very, very proud....(not clear). I was not only...(not clear). And I told him something. I told him off. He told me, “All Jews want to go to that holy land,” something like this. “We have a lot of refugees.” I said, “Look, I am an officer,” and I slammed the door and left him and started travelling to Israel on my own. I still had a little, a few dollars and we took a boat in Constanza to Turkey, to Stamboul. Landed in Stamboul a lot of German spies. Stambour was terrible. And there was a Jewish Agency. I went to the Jewish Agency and I asked if they can help me. “No.” But they told me, “You go to Izmir.” If you know geography, where Izmir is. It’s a long way from Istanbul. “And in Izmir you will find ships for Israel.” Palestine in those days. So we, I and my wife and another singer, somebody we knew - Perkopianic - and another couple, we took a train and we came to Izmir. We landed in Izmir and we didn’t have a penny, we didn’t have nothing whatever. We were in Izmir in an orange grove. We didn’t have a hotel. We slept in....There is no boat, no nothing. From Izmir you can see Cyprus in the daytime. It is very near Cyprus. After sitting in Izmir for two days, suddenly I saw a boat is coming in, on the horizon a boat was coming. The boat came near a port. I went up to see the captain. The captain was a German Jew. The crew was all Arabs. And what they came to Izmir? They have to load one hundred goats! I said, “Alright, you have the goats, but we are here five people. You take us to Haifa.” He said, “No.” I started shouting at him and as I said, “Look, if you don’t take us I’m going to sink your bloody ship here.” I still had a revolver on me. And he was a bit....then he said, “I can take you, but only on the deck.” I said, “Alright.” Listen now. We went on the deck and we left Izmir. After being on this thing for six hours, suddenly I saw an English military big boat coming with signals to stop coming. We stopped. An English marine came onto the boat saying, “You’re not allowed. You’re going to Cyprus.” We don’t go to Cyprus. This captain, he couldn’t read a map, the sea map. He didn’t know where he is.

Q: This Turkish one?

A: No, Jewish.

Q: No, the one is Izmir. Which one couldn’t?

A: The one came from Izmir. We wanted to go to Haifa and he could’t read a map. Instead of Haifa he went to Cyprus because it was nearer. And the British wanted to arrest us all. Then we found out that the fellow is never on the sea. He was a captain on the Danube with tourists, but he couldn’t find Haifa. And this British...I could speak English. They wanted to take us to Cyprus and lock us up. We talked and he showed, “Go that way. You will find.” He left us and we sailed away with the goats towards Haifa and the next day we were in Haifa. In Haifa, if we would come with the military....they didn’t want to take us in Bucharest. We came as private. They put us in Atlit. It was a camp.

Q: That was already the year ‘40?

A: That was in 1940. They put us in Atlit. I was not long there. They let me out in three days. My wife was not there. They took her to Jerusalem, to a women’s jail and they let her also out. I was let out and I joined the army then, straight from Atlit to Sarafand, and Lola, my wife, went to Tel Aviv. She had a cousin somewhere in Tel Aviv and I was left in the army.

Q: In the British army?

A: No, in the Polish. I came with the Polish army. Let me tell you. I was first in Sarafand, then I was in Latrun.

Q: But in which army?

A: In the Polish army.

Q: In Latrun, in Sarafand?

A: In Sarafand, yes. The Polish army was only about two hundred people.

Q: Can you explain that a little bit more because there is confusion?

A: The Polish army, when I came, was about two hundred people and they did not know, they hadn’t held any barracks. Some people were located in Haifa and some people, officers mostly or experts, in Sarafand. Then more Poles came and they took all together from Haifa and from Sarafand and they opened a big camp in Latrun.

Q: Of the Polish army?

A: Only Polish army. And I became, my army life started in Latrun. The first general who came, his name was Kopansky, and I was his....He couldn’t speak a word of English and we were dealing not with Polish Jews, but we were dealing with the English army there and nobody could speak Polish with the English army. And I was the interpreter of the general. And then the orders came that there must be somebody as a permanent liason between...and I had the job.

Q: You were the liason?

A: BLU - British Liason Unit. That was still not formed. Six months later was formed a unit which was called British Liason Unit - BLU. I was transferred - British. It was not a Polish unit. I was transferred to BLU and I became my own boss. I had authority to ride, to go anywhere I find that I have to be and I didn’t need to ask anybody. But when I needed anything they informed the Polish headquarters what I am doing, where I am going. What they want to know about this? And so we started. And then the army moved from Palestine to Egypt. I went on the same job in Tel el Kabir. From Tel el Kabir we went to the desert. From Cairo we went to Tobruk.

Q: Tobruk? In Libya?

A: Yes, from Egypt. We went to Tobruk. I was in Tobruk nearly a year, eight or nine months. And I went to Tobruk before the Polish army came because they sent me to arrange all landing, which front line they would take. This was my job.

Q: I want to understand. You were in uniform or you were a liason?

A: Liason was the same as ordinary uniform, ordinary officer. They did not have special uniforms. Nothing. You wore a uniform with the ranks, with the medals, everything you went. But you had permission. I had a pass carried with me which I could, if I had necessity to enter somewhere difficult, I showed the pass and this was alright. I had the same uniform as any officer. And then, as you know, we went to the whole Libyan campaign. I will not tell you the details. We went from Tobruk to Benghazi. Then we landed in Italy.

Q: The town Sirte? It is not important.

A: Then I landed with the 7th British armoured division, because the biggest unit there was the 7th British armoured division. We landed in Palermo, in Sicily, because it was very near.

Q: Yes, but didn’t you say you have been in Egypt, in El-Alamein?

A: Yes.

Q: El-Alamein and Montgomery?

A: I have been in El-Alamein before. I have been twice in Libya. This what I am telling you was the first time. Don’t forget, the British were in Libya. Then Rommel came and threw them out. Threw them out, we went back. And then I was in El-Alamein and in El-Alamein I was attached to Montgomery and I have done a very good job I think. It was very dangerous.

Q: Tell us a little bit more about this part. About Montgomery.

A: Montgomery was, according to me - I don’t want to make it public because...According to me, he was not a high class general. There were better generals before him in the British army, but why Churchill came and changed to Montgomery I don’t know. I met Churchill in Egypt in the officers’ mess. He came there to greet. I was in the officers’ mess for a drink and he came in. I didn’t speak to him. I just saluted.

Q: Was that at the time when Churchill sent the big army?

A: He came from Persia somewhere.

Q: When he sent the big forces to Egypt.

A: Yes, yes. And then when Churchill left five weeks later, four weeks later, Montgomery arrived. When I was there, Auchinleck was his name. And after El-Alamein.....I wouldn’t like to see it again in my life what I saw, the massacre what I saw in El-Alamein. This was something. You cannot write it. There are no words for it. You have to see it the way I saw it, that thousands of people died, wounded, massacred, crying, shouting. It was something that you cannot....at night sometimes I have a dream, I am crying. I am a very tough man. I am not an easy crier, but this what I saw in El-Alamein I will never forget. It was worse than other battles I have been in, in Monte Cassino, I’ve been in Tobruk. I’ve been in all big....but the worst thing I’ve seen....There were mines, full of mines the Germans put. Rommel was there. And you have to cross the mines and the mines were very ugly mines and people were running, losing legs or this, and lying and nobody could get into the minefield to pick them up. You couldn’t get to them. You had to leave them to die because the minefield was about half a mile deep. We had to send in a special unit. You know, you see the builders when they are building they have this....more or less these instruments, these machines they used to clear minefields. Not exactly, but more or less. Clean the mines.

I must tell you another story which will interest you, I think. In Tobruk. I was in Tobruk with.....

Q: That was ‘42?

A: Yes. I’m going back a little bit, but I forgot a very important....In Tobruk was a doctor, a Jewish doctor who, if an Englishman was wounded, he was shouting, “Bring me to the Polish doctor!” This doctor was so good, but the British doctor, if you had a…he could cut off the leg. And this Polish doctor, he was working day and night. I knew him. It was away from the front, where the port is - there was a big hospital. I was talking to an officer, a Polish officer, and suddenly we heard an explosion in the minefield. We started to look through the glasses what...Somebody had been blown up. This happens every half an hour or ten minutes. And there was a man, a Polish fellow, and I say, “Look here. Let’s go in and see who it is.” Because it was very near our back. And this fellow....(end of side)

He was killed later. With his hand, shifted and reached this fellow. He brought out a fellow who was here open. I took off my belt from my trousers. Blood was running. Everything was in the....Put him in my jeep and brought him to the Polish doctor. Left him with the Polish doctor and I was outside. After twenty minutes, the Polish doctor came out and said he can’t do anything. He is dead. I said, “Who is he?” You know who he was? The son of Singer, the famous writer, American. He was killed in my....I took him to the hospital. I buried him in the cemetery - there was no cemetery in the desert. You know, you have to put some sign who is there. Wouldn’t have anything. I wrote down on a piece of paper or tin and put a piece of wood and his name, his number so and so.

Q: The son of Bashevis Singer?

A: Yes. And then I came back to England.

This fellow Singer is buried. I and another friend of mine, a Jewish fellow, helped me to put him. As far as I know - I’ve never been back there - but I know people. You know, the Polish government has got an embassy in Libya and has got a consul in Tobruk, which is looking after the dead, because there are a lot of Polish dead there. I’ve asked different people, “Did you find?” Nobody could give me a reply. I’m sure he didn’t escape, he is there. Now they’ve put crosses all over the place. You know what happened? One night, all the crosses are stolen by the Arabs because the crosses were made from a metal and they needed the metal. They stole all the crosses. Back in the Combattant Association in London had information from the Polish Consul in Libya. Then we had other budget....not long ago we put new crosses in stones. Now, to put new crosses is alright, but do you know exactly who is there? They had the names, but they didn’t have exactly....doesn’t make a big difference, but it will be a cemetery and it will be now looked after by the British Cemetery Commission. They have an organization. Until now the Polish had a Cemetery Commission which is not very good. This is one story I wanted to tell.

The other story about Tobruk is Yom Kippur. It was Yom Kippur, I was in Tobruk, and an order came through that an officer, me, has to assemble and take all Jews for praying. These all Jews are placed in five different front lines. To pray is another three or four miles into the village of Tobruk and the address? There will be a wadi. I didn’t know what is wadi (not clear). You know maybe. A wadi and the wadi will have a bridge and under the bridge in the wadi will be a shul and there we will place the men. Alright, the order came through at this Tobruk and I went up, I had glasses.....there was mentioned an army assembly point, where, you know, the army, how you go. You don’t need streets. You go with a compass. And if the compass is such and such number….I came to the top of the little desert - not a single Jew. I sat down and waited. Suddenly, the German artillery opened fire. My lady, I thought this was the end of the world. You know, the sand from the shells was so high that you couldn’t see the sun, you couldn’t see anything. I am lying and I wait. It took about fifteen to twently minutes. The firing stopped. The sand settled down. What I saw? I saw, maybe a mile away from me, crawling people. That must be our Jews. And it took me some time, an hour, and they came from different units. They came to the assembly place there and I was there and believe me, not one was killed, nothing happened to them. This was hundred percent miracle because the artillery shelling was so...that I was lying and the shells fell like this around me. I took this whole unit and it reminded me of Moshe Rabbenu goes in the desert. I was at the front and the “hevre” behind me. I was the senior officer. And we found the wadi by asking military police on the way. We found the wadi. We came into this wadi - full of people: New Zealander, Australians, English. Jews. Who is going for Yom Kippur?

Q: Soldiers?

A: Yes, of course. Tobruk in a wadi! And first thing, you know, according to military, I asked who is in charge, the rabbi. I brought in a nigger, this size, but a nigger. Black like....and I salute him and told him my name, who I am. Like in the army. He introduced himself, spoke a beautiful English. He was a chap from Eritrea and he was a real rabbi and there in the docks was a unit, Eritrean unit working as labourers. Military. And he was a rabbi and there was no other rabbi and we...The first time I spent Yom Kippur in the middle of the desert with a Negro rabbi! I’ve told a lot of people this story and you know, some miracle happened. We spent the whole day there and in the evening came, how to get back to where you belonged. We couldn’t stay there any longer. And we have to split up in various.....the right, left and so and so and so on. And so we crawled nearly a whole night in dark, which was very dangerous, and we came back, as far as I know, to the unit where everybody belonged there. This is a story in the end of Libya.

Q: It’s really a wonderful story. How long have you been in Libya?

A: In Libya or in Tobruk? In Libya I have been there a long time, but in Tobruk not, because after El-Alamein we went through Libya, then we went to Italy. Already we finished in Africa.

Q: But in Libya you have been in other places, too? Benghazi, Tripoli? In Libya you have been also in other places?

A: Of course. All Libya. I walked through Libya because, you know, we were going slowly. We were not running around Libya because it was very dangerous there. The road in Libya goes along the sea, all along the sea, and immediately after the road is a hill. One day, I was driving with a Scotsman. I can speak German and they wanted me to listen to the telephone lines. You know, we used to cut into the line and listen what they are talking. And we went behind the lines to connect out…. We found the telephone line. They were talking something rubbish, not interesting, but we saw three lorries on the road - we were behind them - running towards the front, the front line. You know the Cockneys?

Q: From England.

A: A Cockney is English, born in England. I had a driver, a Cockney, very nice, still alive, very nice man, and we were very good friends. And Jerries, two Jerries - they called them Jerries, the Germans - and we had an armoured car and he drove down from the embankment to the road, shot into the first car, stopped it. About eight or ten Germans ran out with their rifles and the other car we had to....had also a machine gun....One or two were alive. I came down and the window where the driver it, the window in the first car, had a face that was German. You know, some Germans had cut their faces from the school, fighting or something. Started shouting some German and my driver took....I’ve never...(not clear) shot through the window. He was Cockney. He is still there. He put him down in a big hole. And what was the lorries. When they took these old lorries, they were loaded with sour kirschen syrup. You know what sour kirsch syrup is? You know what cherries are? The water in Libya was very bad and you had to add to the water that you would be able to drink it. The English gave some pills, some powder. The Germans imported from Poland sour kirsch, you know, cherries. How do you call these cherries which are sour? Not sweet, Wishnisk, syrup. All lorries. When we saw this we brought back the two lorries with another road and when they came to our headquarters, was the biggest show. They were laughing themselves to death. They said to bring back....now we brought back two lorries with sour kirschen syrup.

Q: Yes. So after Libya you were?

A: After Libya I was in Italy.

Q: It was already end of ‘42?

A: Yes. Was still war. I landed in Sicily and I landed in Salerno. Twice. Salerno was very difficult. The landing in Salerno. Not in the town Salerno, near Salerno. It was called Monte Caino. There is a big cemetery in....

Q: Yes. An then?

A: Because there where we landed, the whole area was tobacco factories. You know, tobacco factories have no windows, only a little loft. And the leaves are hanging for curing and they must have very cool...It was hot. And when we came into this tobacco factory and the Germans set these leaves through these holes afire and we couldn’t breathe. Who had a gas mask put the gas mask. Who didn’t, didn’t have it. I didn’t. You couldn’t breathe. It lasted a whole night. I was lucky. I was somewhere in the other end and it was not so bad, but some of them were coughing and spitting. Until the morning. In the morning an American fleet came in, heavy naval fleet from the sea, because it was on the sea, along the sea. And the Germans were opposite on the hills. And the heavy guns from the big boat. The Germans opened such a fire that you had the impression that it was daytime. It was at night and the whole hills were on fire, and they were on fire. And the Germans lost a lot of money and they escaped. The next day we came out from the tobacco factory and we breathed. And then we moved from there. It was not far, about ten kilometers, to Salerno, to the town of Salerno. The town of Salerno was completely ruined. The Germans runied before they left. Only the Opera was still there - they didn’t ruin it. It was a nice Opera. But the whole buildings in…Salerno is on a hill looking over the sea. Not a hill, but....Every house was ruined from the sea and there was....along the sea was big bunkers in cement for defending. The Germans had put up. You couldn’t drive a car because they were shooting from the bunkers with machine guns. You had to have soldiers crawling in the sand near the bunkers and the bunkers had little windows where they had the machine guns, and put in a hand grenade with their hand. And this was the only way to get them out. But with a gun you couldn’t get them out.

Q: This is near Amalfi?

A: Near Amalfi, yes, not far. I’ll tell you about Amalfi. Amalfi, Romello, Positano - this side.

Q: These all little wonderful places.

A: I was there. I was one of the first that came into Amalfi. One of the first from the British. You know, there were two roads from Salerno.

Q: Now you were already part of British army?

A: (?) There were not Poles. There are two roads - one road goes to Pompeii from Salerno in, and the other goes down, through Romello, Positano. Romello is on the top and then you go to Positano and then you go to Castellamare, and until you arrive again, both armies met in the main road in Pompeii. We went with (?). I can speak Italian. The road, the main road to Pompeii from Salerno took them three days. They arrived in Salerno. It took us two weeks to go that way. And in the middle, the Germans were still sitting on top of the hills and shooting. Now the main trouble was in the narrow, dangerous road that all the roads, you know, where they have a bend. This is bridges you have to cross to go through from one bend to the other. And these old bridges were mined and they had to bring in specialists with....”Bailey bridge”, they called it. The bridges, army. Bailey bridge. You make a bridge in a few hours. But it takes time. The bridges have to come, by the sea they came, and it’s very high there from the sea. We arrived in Amalfi and we were told.....You know the area? In the top of Amalfi is Romello. And a little road from Amalfi to Romello is like this, like this, like this.

Q: Serpentine.

A: Yes. You can imagine, to go this route in a tank. You have to be a very skillful driver.

Q: And not to meet someone!

A: We were told in Romello this. I decided I will come. I wanted to see. We come to Romello....Have you been to Romello? A “piazza” when we arrived and there was a castle, the famous castle in Romello.

Q: Castellamare?

A: A castle belongs to an actor, a writer, a very famous writer. And when we came into the “piazza”, our informers in Italy, the police, they were very...didn’t like the Germans much. “Politizia”. “Carabiniera”. We said, “Where are the Tedescos? Where are the Germans? Those who lived in....” (not clear). And there was a hotel on the top. Caruso built the castle. And the hotel is called also “Caruso”, but the hotel is on the top and you have to go steps. And I had with us two Scotsmen. (not clear). They went down on an armoured car on the steps and when they came to the front door, they shot out the front door of the hotel and it was very early in the morning. The man, the concierge, came in his underwear out and started crying, “Mama mia! (Italian).” There were six Germans. They brought in their sick or wounded and they put them up as a hospital in this hotel. They couldn’t come down. We were afraid to go up. I don’t know. There are six. There could be another one with a machine gun. And we sent the police, the “Carabinieras” out to bring down the Germans, to carry them down, and they brought them down. They brought them down and another Italian, he entered, “There is no more there.” They forgot, the German army forgot them there, left them there sick, ill, wounded. Then we had the trouble. We couldn’t kill them or shoot them. We couldn’t kill them. We sent a signal down to Amalfi. From Amalfi they sent some medical staff and they took away all these Germans.

Now we went down and they next place was Positano. It’s not far, but also we had to put five or six bridges across to get to Positano on the sea. When we arrived to Positano there was a lot of Germans there, a lot of fascists. The whole of Positano was packed with....

Q: That was before Monte Cassino?

A: Of course. That was eight months before. I’ll tell you later. I could speak Italian and we were looking for somebody. There was a man in charge of the town, a town man, a town major, but he was a fascist. We had to arrest him. We took over a little hotel and there we kept him all locked up, arrested.

Q: Tell me, did you have help by the Italians? Did the Italians help you?

A: Help me? Some of them very much and some of them nothing. Depends what Italian. There is an Italian highland regiment called “Basilieri”. I have a medal, a “Basilieri” medal.

Q: Really?

A: Yes. I sent it to Yad Vashem. In a package of the medals there is a “Basilieri” one. I knew the Basilieris, but that is another story. I went to Positano. In Positano we had to ring up and there was a little restaurant on the front of the sea. You had to go down with steps. It was a nightclub and the nightclub was run by a German wife of a German officer and it was full of German girls, prostitutes mostly. You know the Italians. They would have a good time there. But for us it was a bit dangerous and we are not allowed. We had to clean out. We arrested the owner of the nightclub and we arrested her and we turned out the girls. The army....(not clear) and the whole coast was closed for the army. Only officers with special permission could get in. From Castellamare up to Amalfi, past Amalfi, was closed. You needed a special pass. And I was looking for a....as I was a main....for these people, these soldiers who were there, I was the main speaker because I could speak Italian, I could speak German. This was very important. Very few people spoke English there. And I found a chap. His name was Paulo Sarasane. Paulo Sarasane had a brother and a sister. His parents died and they had a beautiful, beautiful villa, “palazzo” in the middle, the main road. I became friendly with this Paulo. Paulo was a very anti-fascist - known there. The Germans arrested him for a time. In any case....We were looking for a “syndico”. You know what a “syndico” is? A mayor. And I proposed - it was not up to me, but I proposed to the people who were dealing with it, officers, to make Paulo a “syndico”, he was the right man, and he was on the job. Believe it or not, he was thirty years “syndico”. He died last year.

Q: A mayor?

A: Mayor, yes. He was mayor of Positano. He had a brother and sister. The sister’s name was Anna. She died. And the brother I’ve heard may be still alive somewhere. They changed this villa they have into a little luxurious hotel which I came after the war with a car from England with my wife and my friends. This is what I am telling you, I told him. I want to show him off, that (?) you would have seen the reception. They gave me such a reception in Positano like a king has got because I was very, very strict there. I was very friendly with a lot of people. The main thing, they didn’t have a drop of water. Only the sea. The water was on top of the hill and everything was ruined. I managed to bring British military engineers. They put a pipe from the top of the hill, a water pipe, they repaired the pumps and water came back to Positano. This they will never forget.

Q: This is a very important thing.

A: I used to go every day to Capri because we had these military speedboats - fifteen minutes to arrive in the port.

And then, all good things have an end. I had a good time there. I was six months or eight months there. Then I left. We left to Naples.

Q: When was it already?

A: In Positano, we left Positano and the civilians...

Q: When? Approximately.

A: This must have been ‘44. ‘43-’44, something like this.

Q: I would like to ask you, in all these years, what did you know first of all about your wife, and second, what did you know about your family in Poland? Or did you have any information what was going on in Europe?

A: First my wife. I didn’t bother telling. My wife was very well placed. She was earning money. She was a star in “Li-La-Lo”, in “HaBimah”, and there was a theatre, “Ohel”. She was working in “Ohel” for a time. Forgot the name of the actor she was with. Then I was not worried about her at all. I don’t know if she was worried about me, too. I never asked her. She was alright, don’t worry. But regarding my family. I knew in the days after Tobruk that there is very bad news out of Poland because there were some....there where we were, they were sending military spies to Poland by plane. They landed in Poland. And these spies came back, some of them. And they brought, one of them.....Karsky. Professor Karsky, he came to Cairo and he brought from, still alive, some elders of the Jewish people, he brought that is is very bad, but this was before the “Final Solution”. They were still exporting Jews from Warsaw to Majdanek, to other camps and so on. This we knew. From the part of Poland where I came from, very little we knew, very little. We knew that the Ukrainians....who was from there, two or three people I knew. We knew that they are bastards and we knew they will do anything, but in details I did not know. I knew when the war was finished and I found out from some people who came from there the last days. These people in Kosow, they were killed in 1944. At the beginning they were all kept...some of them were taken away. The rich people were taken - my father was taken away the first. My mother, they kept her and a peasant with my sister - my sister was very young, about five years I think she was - and he kept her and the Germans came until she had jewels. They took away all her jewellery until she didn’t have anything. He took the mother and the sister to the forest and shot them both. The mother he killed and the sister he didn’t kill. The sister was wounded and a man, he was a hunter, went through and found a little girl, blonde, very beautiful, and took her to his home. How long did they keep her? He kept her two years under the floor. Two years a young girl, sixteen, until the Germans left. Now when the Germans left, she left this house, but she didn’t know where to go and she went to Czernowitz. In Czernowitz we had some family, friends. And then in Czernowitz there was another group of people from Ukraine, from Russia - they started to escape to the west. Terrible - some went to Austria and there they were picked up again by Germans and they put them again in a camp, Mauthausen.

When I came to Austria. I came to Klagenfurt and in Klagenfurt I was told, “Go to a place called Judenburg”. Still exists today - Judenburg. Hitler has changed it and there is no…. And I came to Judenburg. There was not a lot British troops there. There was an Israeli, a Jewish transport company. I ask who is in charge of the transport company. They were in the middle of this road in Judenburg. Still Germans, plenty around. They told me, “Brigadier”. I came in to introduce myself to him, to tell him what I am doing here, because I was sent there as a liason officer to see what....There is a man I met here in Israel, a South African. They were two brothers and they were stationed here near Rehovot. And he was very pleased to see me. We used to call ourselves by name. “Good that you came because I’m going to see the town major, the mayor of Judenburg, and you can help me in German because all my soldiers, they can’t speak any German.” I was waiting. Ten minutes later the whole town hall, with the mayor, with all the others, came to see and I was shivering like this to see the major. He was a tall chap with a stick here, you know, dressed in shorts - it was summer. And he asked me - didn’t say, “Ask the mayor.” He said, “Ask the man. Ask the man, tell the man that we are here, all Jews from Palestine,” because it was Palestine, “and if anything will happen to my soldiers, he will be shot immediately.” I told him in German, but all the drivers on the lorries, on this transport company, were coloured boys, Moroccans, and the mayor asked the colonel, “ber wer sind diese Schwartze?”. I’m telling him, “He wants to know who your black soldiers are.” And this brigadier was angry and he took his stick, bang on the table, “Tell the bloody man these are colonial troops.” Colonial troops, Jewish colonial troops! They were all Moroccans from this part. Colonial troops. He lives in South Africa, the two brothers. Both of them were in the British army. Forgot the name.

Q: This story has connection with your sister?

A: Yes. And there I was looking for the camp. I knew there was a few hundred of them. I knew they had brought them a few days before. And everybody told me something else, sometimes other story - the local people. I was searching. Nothing. Where I came, they said, “Yes. They were here, but they left.” The train. There was a unit with the army, like I was there, which was UNWRA. UNWRA was United Nations Relief Organization. UNWRA people came and they saw these poor people and they packed them on a train, took them away to Italy back. They were afraid the Germans would come back. They didn’t go far. They went as far - if you know geography a little, when you go, when you cross the border from Italy, it’s not far from.....you go from Padua to Klagenfurt.

Q: Klagenfurt is in Austria.

A: Austrian border. They took the train over to Klagenfurt and I was in Judenburg, not far from Klagenfurt. And we were very keen to catch this train, but if the train has got something from my family I did not know. I did not know because I was interested in any Jewish people, to save them. I did not know it at that time. We went down to a village and the train was there and we had three light armoured cars and I told an officer. I saw the train with all this steam. It means it’s going to move. Who they are? And I saw that the train has got still a few German soldiers. In any case, we started to blow up the engine. There was a steam engine. We put heavy shells in the boiler of the engine and the whole water came out and then we took away the railway people. About four or five were soldiers, German and the rest were....And we start looking who is in the train. The train was a goods train. The whole place was barbed wire. My dear lady, I can tell you only one thing. I never saw such miserable in my life what I saw in this train. People - there must have been seven or eight hundred people - people were half dead or dying or dead. I couldn’t go into the wagon because it was dangerous, but I could see only this. I start asking these people who could speak still. They saw us, they didn’t know who we are and they were frightened of us like hell. What to do? I, BLU, I was BLU, this was my business - I sent a signal to UNWRA. I knew UNWRA was following us. UNWRA was dealing with refugees and I sent them a signal that here, in this and this place. we kept a train full loaded with refugees and please advise further action should be taken. We are about two hours there, patrolling around the train that the Germans....After two hours, three or four lorries, UNWRA came from the (not clear). From Venice I think. They had doctors and they opened all the trains. We left it to UNWRA and it took them the whole day until night. They cleaned out the trains and they took away the whole people. The night has passed and I was somewhere. My unit was not far away. The next day I started wondering what have they done with these people? And I start searching and I found these people, they’ve moved them a lot back in Italy and they opened a camp which is an UNWRA refugee camp and these people are there. As I was the initiator of the whole thing, I thought I have to go and have a look who is there.

Q: It was in Torino? Where? It was where?

A: In Italy.

Q: But which place?

A: Which is the place?

Q: Was it Torino?

A: No, nothing. It was somewhere around, it was not far away from Florence. I don’t know. I can’t remember the name of the place. In any case, I came the next day until I found. It was not in the town. The camp was made in a little forest, a garden. And I want to go in there. You know, it was not allowed. It was already late in the afternoon and I asked who was in charge here. The soldier brought me in to the man in charge. Who was in charge? Major Cooper. I was with him in Haifa years before. He was an Irish man, a lot of drinking. He was in the army and then later on they transferred him to UNWRA. Redge was his name, Redge Cooper. And I told him, “Look, Redge. I want to go in. I didn’t know if I have got somebody there. May I will find some friends.” “You know I am not allowed....” We went in. It was already getting dark and there was a boiler. A big queue and in the front there was a kitchen and everybody was holding a tin, but not a tin what you take, but old tins from food, you know, some dirty thing. And they gave them some soup. I started with this Cooper, Redge Cooper, and asking every couple or single, (?), in Polish, in Ukrainian, in German, in English, in Italian, in Yiddish. “Hobt ihr gesein a familie Rand? Hobt ihr gehert?” There were a lot of Russian Jews there. I came to the end of the queue, nearly the end. I saw a man who was standing like he was going to drop in five minutes dead. I asked him, “Where are you from?” He said, “From the Ukraine.” I asked him, “Fin is send ihr im die Ukraie? Habt ihr gesein a familie Rand?” Opened his eyes and looked to me and said, “You are Benno Rand?” My name is Bernard. My mother used to call me Benno, my sister, but my friends did not know me as Benno Rand. I nearly dropped dead. I said, “How do you know?” “Fum wan weist ihr dem Namen Rand.” He said, “Ihr habt a Schwester Lola?” My sister was Lola and my brother…I said, “Yes.” He said, “Ja, Lola, sie is dir, in dieser Barache, in the tent.” (pause). I took the fellow away. He went with me there to the tent with this Irishman, and a soldier opened the tent. I saw a bundle of bones on the floor, covered with some “shmattes”. I did not know it’s my sister. It was dark. I did not want to go to wake her up because she get a heart attack if she see me suddenly, in uniform, a black beret. I went back with this officer, the Irishman, and told him, “Look here. Tell the soldier to wake her up and to tell her that the office wants something.” And I went back with him to the office where there was light. There were no lights in the tents, nothing. And fifteen, ten minutes later they brought in my little sister. She recognized me and I recognized her. Why couldn’t I find her? Because I looked through the list. They had a list. This fellow Markovich found her in a previous camp - she was alone. He adopted her with his wife and registered her as Markovich and not as Rand. Then the trouble started. What shall I do? Markovich. Altogether was looking very, very, very poor. I am due here. I came with a driver. My driver had a radio. In those days, to drive through Italy.....

Q: I would like to go back.

A: I wanted to go near Naples somewhere. In the back. There it was still normal. And there the Jewish brigade was there. I had a lot of friends there and I thought I’d bring them there and leave them there and I would go and I will go back to Austria, to Padua, near Austria, Klagenfurt. And I covered them with blankets and drove through all the patrols - made out I had a book with passes so I could - and came to Salerno in the night, nearly morning. There was Meckliff, a friend, Lee Rutenberg - all friends of mine which I knew from Palestine days. They were in the army here. Janek Steiner. And I told them.

Q: What did you tell them?

A: I have to leave these people here. I have to go back to my...and then maybe I will be transferred myself near somewhere there, which I did. There was a hotel and the hotel belonged to the officers of the Jewish Brigade of Palestine. They gave me a room. I put her first into a room.

Q: Your sister?

A: My sister, Markovich, his wife. They had a good wash. They were not very healthy. They couldn’t eat, they couldn’t....In any case, I built them up a little bit and Markovich, the Jewish Brigade found him a job somewhere to earn some money. And her, she was working in the officers’ mess, the wife, and the sister was resting, doing nothing. I left enough money for her. I went back to my unit, to the other side....

Q: Where was your unit at that time?

A: My unit? In Klagenfurt.

Q: But I wanted to bring you back to Italy because we jumped.

A: I had to go back to Mauthausen.

Q: Okay, but you didn’t speak about Italy in ‘44, about Monte Cassino.

A: I told you about Monte Cassino. I was the liason officer in Monte Cassino, in the front line, in the GHQ. I was in Monte Cassino. There was another Polish officer there because…staff officer. A colonel called Ludwig. He is dead. More or less he was my boss, but I could speak better English than he. And we were two handling all the outside business. If a Polish regiment somewhere needed shoes or guns, he has to inform us and we inform the British. This is the liason business. Or if deliveries didn’t arrive. I told you yesterday, a telegram came - “forty thousand Poles arriving.” Forty thousand telegraph poles. I forgot to put in “telegraph”. And then the next day, forty thousand Poles and they were shouting they have no food for forty thousand Poles, and I had to find out who sent this message, which unit, and to tell them....talking for an hour about telegraph poles.

Q: But the year ‘44, probably already the “Unders” came there.

A: Unders came first to Persia from Russia. I was there, I was in Persia, in a place called Kerem Al Shakh. And they came by boat through the Caspian Sea. And there they formed, after being in Persia about two months....The British didn’t want them to form a....Persia was full of Russians. The Russian military was there. And full of spies, Germans, also in Persia. And they decided, with the British authorities, that they have to be shifted to Palestine, the whole.....First through Iraq, because Palestine didn’t have any space. There were other troops there. They went first to Iraq, near Bagdad, near Kirkuk, a place called Kirkuk. And there the Polish army was formed, but not armed. Formed, but not armed.

What should I tell you. Unders love affair there is not interesting, I think. She had a Jewish husband. She is still alive in London. Good friends of mine. She was married to Gottlieb.

Q: I wanted to know a little bit more about the Jewish refugees also.

A: From Russia?

Q: I didn’t want to take you back to Persia, but I wanted to make a connection with...The Jewish refugees that came to Italy in ‘44.

A: They didn’t come from Russia.

Q: Not from Russia. Did you meet Jewish refugees in Italy?

A: I met one or two. You know, the only place where I had....

Q: You told me that you had some.....

A: They were Israelis. I helped the refugees, but I didn’t meet them. The water bottles on the boat. This was Lee Rutenberg. He is an Israeli.

Q: But explain that a little bit more.

A: You know, there were a lot of ships smuggling refugees to Israel from different ports in Italy. Most of the Adriatic side of Italy. Not the Mediterranean. And they were old boats. They bought old, rotten boats and the Italians were running these boats, but they didn’t have the equipment on these boats and all equipment they were scrounging, scrounging, getting from the army, some illegal things. And they came to me, they haven’t got a drop of water on the boat. And I was in Iraq, stationed there, in Basra. Basra - you have ever been there? Hell. Hell. In the summer a normal person has to have some cooling. We were living in a tent in Basra. In Sheibar, near Basra. And we could not breathe. There was the first big depot for equipping, because there was the Polish army in Iraq, before Russia. (end of side)

Q: Well, I understand that there is an interesting story about the documents from Mauthausen. Can you tell us how all this idea started?

A: I was in Italy, then I went to Austria, and in Austria we were told that there is a very important base, were a lot of refugees in Mauthausen. Nobody knew, first of all, where is Mauthausen. We had to find out from maps. I knew the area very well. I’ve been as a child brought up in Linz. Mauthausen is very near Linz.

Q: But tell me, when you say you were told - by whom?

A: By people, by refugees. I couldn’t give you a single person because people, Jewish people which I met in Italy, here and there. Even in Austria, even Klagenfurt I was told. We were searching are there any concentration camps in Austria. We were told there was only one big concentration camp - Mauthausen. And I told myself, “Mauthausen. Where is it?” I found on the map Mauthausen.

Q: You were at that time in the English army?

A: I was all the time in the English army. Only in the beginning, in Sarafand....I was British liason officer. I belonged to 26th BLU - British Liason Unit - to the last minute of the war and when I came to England I was discharged as British army BLU.

Then we went to look after. We were four of us - three were English and I was not English, but they considered me….And we were travelling. In those days you never knew where your enemy is. In the war, you know, you didn’t because they changed, escaped a lot. A lot took off their uniforms. They just changed. They were afraid. We found how to get there to Mauthausen. We left late in the afternoon and we arrived early in the morning to Mauthausen. We saw the camp from afar.

Q: It was when exactly?

A: The date?

Q: The year, the month.

A: 1944. I saw. Then we were afraid to approach because, you know, Mauthausen, how it had guards. But we were prepared for shooting out. I was staying in my jeep about two hundred, three hundred meters away. We were four of us. Two went very near the gate and one was behind the two in case they get in trouble. The gate was a big gate, was locked, and all of the soldiers opened it with hitting it. I didn’t shoot. When they came in, opened the gate, immediately two or three soldiers (not clear), dressed in Austrian military - German and Austrian were the same. I think they shot him. This is what I know from them because I was not inside. When I heard some shooting I came nearer and told them, “Look, don’t take any prisoners here. Don’t do anything but walk in.” There was a nice building to the right. I supposed it could be or a hospital or an office because the barracks were half a mile away. Big place. They kicked the door open, opened the door, and had a look around. They hadn’t seen anymore shooting. They carried out all what are the documents which were there.

Q: But how did you know where the documents are?

A: In the files.

Q: Yes, but Mauthausen is a very big place with so many sub....

A: These were the offices. “Office” written in German. Everything German. Haven’t you seen how these documents are looking. You never saw such precision. Every card...(German). Blue eyes, the height of every prisoner. Everything - this was there, too. Was written in German (German). And they took it out in files and packets and they filled up all four jeeps.

Q: It was not so simple probably.

A: No. We took it out, everything we could take in writing, in paper we took away.

Q: But I would still like to know the technique, how did you do that? After all, Germans were still there.

A: These which were there, which we saw, were killed.

Q: You killed them.

A: I haven’t seen it. I don’t know. I don’t want to make myself a hero. I didn’t shoot anything, but there were two Scotsmen and an Irish fellow. Only the other one wouldn’t go. They were looking for sensation and I went with them. It was alright. We took out everything. It was already light, it was morning, early, and what I was leading to get out as soon as possible because I was afraid soon the Americans would come in, or the Russians would come in, because we, driving there, we saw American troops moving. And it the Americans would come in, we have had it.

Q: They will take it.

A: Everything. We left and Americans came. What the Americans took I don’t know.

Q: These are many boxes. This is not only one little case.

A: This was not in boxes. The boxes was later.

Q: How was it? How much material was it?

A: What can I tell you? One ton weight. One thousand one hundred an forty kilo. This I know.

Q: And four people, you were only four people?

A: Four people.

Q: And you carried all this?

A: We didn’t carry it. They took it out from here to the gate. You know how a jeep is looking. Two people is sitting in the front and the back is open. Put in every jeep two hundred kilo - nothing. And we drove off. We put on top of it our coats. We were stopped once or twice by military, traffic. We had to give it away. It was impossible to take it out from there, from Italy. We drove over the border, yes. Impossible.

Q: You took it to which place?

A: I took it to the Italian....there was a Polish headquarters which came from Italy. Near Klagenfurt, somewhere there. And we handed it all - I handed it all, not we - to the Polish intelligence service They were the people. They promised they will take it out from here to England because we were interested to get them out from Austria, from Germany, from Italy. They were all enemies. There was a colonel in charge, a very important Polish officer. We handed it over to him. Bankewicz was his name. He was in charge of the Polish intelligence service. Bankewicz told me personally that it goes to London, we will bring it to London. In London we will sort it out. But we did not know exactly every....there were a lot of Polish names there which we didn’t know they were Jewish because Jews had a lot of Polish names. There was a lot of Poles, Polish officers there, a lot in Mauthausen. It was quite Jewish, but it was more Polish, I think, than Jewish. And this the last time I saw him, when I handed over these papers. Time has gone, you know. I was transferred somewhere, I went back to Naples. I was in Naples working when they handed over to the Yugoslavs, to Tito - one thousand lorries they handed over to Tito.

Q: What did they hand over to Tito?

A: Lorries, heavy military lorries. Guns. Everything. Near Positano, from Positano. And I was the man who handed it over. I have it in writing - I can show it to you in London. To Tito. And the Yugoslavs came over and they collected, but I have to sign every part. This took four weeks. And they kept me back for six weeks in Italy, which other people were already in England. Then I was fed up already with army. They want me another four weeks to stay because I could speak Italian. There was a boat in Naples harbour which went to London, near London. Not London, but very near London. A military boat. And I had a pass to get into London and I put my whole belongings in this boat and arrived in London on the 31th of December.

Q: Of?

A: 1944. ‘44, not ‘45. It was dead with fire. Christmas in England. I landed on the 3rd or 4th of ‘45, but I arrived in ‘44.

A2: You arrived at the end of ‘45 to England.

A: End of ‘45? She knows. And I didn’t have where to stay and as I was liason officer, for a time, long before, my boss was a Polish colonel. His name was Ludwig. Very nice, intelligent Polish. You know, Polish gentleman if he’s nice....And he wrote me to Italy if I come back I can come and see him. He bought a house. And I thought to myself, I came off the boat. I didn’t have a thing, I didn’t have an address, I didn’t have a house. Only one telephone number to this Colonel Ludwig. I took a taxi, loaded my “shmattes” on the taxi and went to the colonel. I rang him up that I am coming. He gave me a room in his house of this size. Not one piece of furniture. Empty. It was cold like hell in England.

Q: So you came to his....

A: I came there and there was not a piece of furniture and it was cold, frost. I had got my officers’ bag, a collapsible bed. I put it on the floor. I brought with me some blankets and I put myself down and I slept for two days, I didn’t wake up. After two days, I didn’t know London. Not far was a big Polish club - White Eagle. Very nice building. I went into White Eagle. There I met a lot of friends, you know, which I knew from the beginning. And so we spent more or less over a month doing nothing. After that, I came to the conclusion that you can’t make a living with sitting and eating in the club and drinking. All my money was three hundred and something pounds, which I had for five years’ soldiering. As my biggest, first problem was not so much making money, but the accommodation where I lived. I didn’t like it. There was no bed and my whole dream - no furniture - to have a bed and to sleep on a good bed. I was sleeping all these years on the floor, on the lorries, in anything. I met a Polish pilot who was a friend of mine from Poland. We were told that everything you wanted to eat you needed tickets. You couldn’t eat without. That you can eat - and this was Shabbos - a very nice Jewish restaurant in Swiss Cottage, where they sold soup. He was not a Jew. I took him. We went on the bus, we came to the Cottage. We had a very good meal. They even didn’t ask us for tickets. And we walked out. We had a beer, too. Opposite is still today a shop - John Louis. John Louis was top class and we looked. John Barnes, sorry. And I saw in the window mattresses and my whole dream was a mattress. I went into the shop and asked him if this mattress was only for show or for selling because couldn’t buy. I had tickets. I bought the mattress and I paid. I didn’t ask him to deliver it. Fulham, I was living in Fulham. “Oh, no. Sir. It will take you two weeks to deliver from Swiss Cottage.” They didn’t have any petrol. And this pilot, he was a bit “bump happy”, they call it. “Come, let’s get it.” And we took the mattresses on our head and we walked, I don’t know the distance. From Swiss Cottage to Baker’s Street, from Baker’s Street to Hyde Park, through Hyde Park to Fulham Road and Fulham Road is South Kensington. With the mattress on our head. We put the mattress on the floor and I had the first good night of sleep. This was the beginning of good living.

Then I met some people and opened a little factory. I didn’t know what to manufacture. I started making the first thing, making toys.

Q: What about your wife?

A: My wife was in Palestine and I am telling you this story when I was in London. She didn’t come with me. She stayed another year here in Keren Kayemetstrasse. She lives there. And then I started. I found a Polish toolmaker. He had to make tools and I went there. So I went to gather raw materials to make it. And I came in a big depot, a big factory. But you can’t go in, you have to report. I wanted to go in and the porter asked me who I wanted to see. I said I wanted to see the sales manager. He took the telephone up and rang up the main office and I heard him telling, “No.” I asked him what. He said, “No. The sales manager hasn’t got time to see you.” What he told him on the telephone, “A foreigner is here,” because he saw my English is not. I said, “What is the name of the...” “Ah, Mr. Galbraith.” When I was in Basra, in a big depot there, there was a Mr. Galbraith. I was his boss there. And he was with me eight or nine months in Basra. But Galbraith in England - you have dozens. I didn’t know. Maybe this, maybe not. He didn’t let me in. I went outside the door. There was a box office. It was a ha’penny cost to call. Put in a ha’penny and I rang back not the porter, the exchange and the exchange asked, “Who do you want to see? and I said, “Can I speak to Mr. Galbraith?” And she answered me, “Mr. Galbraith is in a meeting.” I told her, “Look, tell Mr. Galbraith a very good friend of his.” - I took a risk. What could he say? “I don’t know you.” And he came to the telephone and I asked him, “Are you Galbraith?” His name was Colin. “Colin Galbraith with me together in Basra?” He says, “Yes. Who are you?” I said, “My name is Bernard Rand.” “What the hell are you doing?” And he ran out from the office. He took me and he was the head of sales manager. But unfortunately he couldn’t do a lot because there were all people who before the war.... “I’ll see what I can do.” He managed to get for me a) some material; b) you need a lot of money. I didn’t have enough money to finance. He opened me a credit account at BX. He guaranteed. Then he went into the Barkley’s bank, opened an account and had an overdraft. He was (?). I opened a factory and we have made, I with another Polish engineer, we have constructed some little machines - hand-operated. We started making different toys and other small things. We went to Woolworth’s. You know Woolworth’s? Big shop, Woolworth’s. And we offered them toys. In those days, they thought we had stolen the toys. There were no toys in England.

Q: When you say toys, what do you mean really?

A: For children.

Q: Children’s toys?

A: Yes. But clever. I’ll tell you what I’ve made money on. We had an order from Woolworth’s. Woolworth’s was the biggest people that was in Europe in these times. Not an order how many toys. How many can we deliver, how many may we take? And so I started. I was the managing director, I was the bookkeeper, I was the chief of works manager, I was the packer - I packed it. I was anything. We had three Poles who were a bit “potty” from the war and an Irish girl who used to make tea because in England, without tea, it does not work. And so I started in Creakerwood Broadway (?) with a little factory and the factory was in an air-raid shelter. You know, air-raid shelter? Not to bomb. When they were bombed they had air-raid shelters in the back. An air-raid shelter which I hired for very cheap - 101 Creakerwood Broadway.

Q: Can you describe what kind of toys did you do?

A: I will tell you.

Q: It is interesting.

A: A man came to me and said, “Look here.” He has an idea. I said, “What is the idea?” We were making little horses. You don’t make small. We were making bigger. The top of the horse was...waggling.

Q: It is a rocking...?

A: Not a rocking...Does that way. We put a pot for the night. You know, when the boy wanted to make peepee, the boy or the girl sitting in the hole and shaking. The mother puts in there and they are making everything there and then she takes it out and this was the biggest “shlager” in those days! In England! And with this I made my first money. And then I started making more serious parts for cars, you know, the handles, everything...(not clear). I used to work for Ford in England, making all parts. Other companies. And I built up a very big building. Then I started. I had an agency of a very big company in Germany, making machines, and I started these machines all over the Commonwealth. The British Empire still didn’t exist, but went to India, was in Hong King, Japan, all over the place, with my wife, and we sold the machines, the German machines. And on and off. I built up a big business. I had three hundred and fifty people to work with. No children. My wife became ill. I had enough. I was seventy already. I didn’t have anybody which I would give him....I sold the business.

Q: We are going back to the documents now.

A: Between this and that was years. I never saw the documents, I never saw the man. I lost the whole trace of what I’ve done. I was very busy with my own business, making a living, making money. I have very good friends in London who are in a very military, political high position. One of them is the president of the Shikorski Institute, which is a museum, institute. He is a good friend of mine, so far that every Saturday we are meeting in the Polish club and we’re having lunch and he informing me the newest thing what happened in the Polish society in London. One of the things he told me such a story. “You know Bankewicz, the Colonel Bankewicz died?” I didn’t know, but.....He was the chief of, the Head of the Service. He left behind a house and his wife wanted to get rid of the house and another Polish officer wanted to buy the house. He found in the house some twelve cases packed with papers. My friend is the head of the Shikorski Institute: “We should keep such papers. There is a museum.” He had got a lot of these papers. He rang him up, what to do with it. He told me this story. I forgot about it, but in the spray of a moment, I thought Bankewicz, there is so many of these papers. Maybe they are the same papers who six years before I gave away for nothing. And I told this to my friend, “Look, let’s go there and have a look.” “Yes, but you haven’t got the keys, but here are the keys of the fellow, the telephone of the fellow who bought it.” He rang him up. Mr. Dubinsky was a big name. His fellow came with the keys and we drove down. It was a very long drive from the Polish club. We went down to the basement. Full of dirt on these cases lying in the basement. Fourteen cases, packed, locked. I opened one. I had the case and I took out a few pages. I don’t know if it’s true, not true. I don’t know. Opened the second case. The same. With the highest precision you can imagine written in German. I went mad nearly. I took these few pages and I still did not believe my own eyes that it can be happening to me, which I forgot, which I’ve been working for it, I risked my life, whatever. And here they are after so many years. I went to the Israeli Embassy in London, I saw the cultural attaché and I tell him the same story. “The papers which these are the files, can you tell me are they true, are they false?” He says, “ Mr. Rand, I don’t know. The only people who know is Yad Vashem. Yad Vashem is in Jerusalem. I was in London. I came home to my wife and told her this story. I think she is very great pro-Israeli. She is terrific. And she says, “Let’s go to Jerusalem for a day or two.” She talked me into it. I was a very busy man. We took a plane. We went to Tel Aviv. The next morning we went to Yad Vashem. I took from every case. Yes, before I went to Israel, I was afraid that this man who bought the house, he will sell it or give it to somebody else. He was not one hundred percent reliable. And then we will be left with nothing, with a few cards. This was on Sunday. On Monday morning I sent from the factory three strong men with a van, the factory van, and we took the cases. He wanted some money, this Polish fellow. Dubinsky is a very big authority. He told him, “Look, you will not get money for such things. What you will get, you will get a medal for finding.” He told me, the chap who had the house, there is all Jewish names there. There was not Jewish names there, but he took out two cards. One card was written Zuckerman and the other card was written Yankel. (Yiddish?) And put the cases into Shikorski Institute. I couldn’t take it to my home. Shikorski Institute was safe. I went to Israel, I went to Yad Vashem and I saw Krakowski and Krakowski told me he thinks they were searching for these papers for the last six years. They didn’t know what happened to them. They were informed that the Russians - because the Russians came the next day there - the Russians took them away. I said, “Look here. But to make sure that this is the right thing. Who can tell us, you and me?” He says he has got some lady there. She is an expert. I said, “Then send her to London.” She came to London. I arranged to let her in to Shikorski Institute and she was sitting four or five days. There were forty thousand cards to look through. And she said one hundred percent kosher. Now, we know it, we have it how to get it to Yad Vashem. I couldn’t send cases and tell them “documents from Mauthausen”. I went again to the Israeli Embassy and saw the military attaché. He didn’t know either. I said, Look, I am an old officer. I know all sorts of tricks. You give me a letter that you are sending fourteen documents, diplomatic, from the Jewish embassy.”

Q: Fourteen cases, fourteen boxes?

A: Yes. He gave me such a letter. I marked them all “Embassy papers”, addressed to Yad Vashem and I had a shipper in London. I asked my shipper to collect the cases and there was an Israeli boat who brought oranges and I put it on the Israeli boat. The next day the boat left and a week later the Mauthausen papers, after so many years, came to Yad Vashem. There is something else you want to know?

Q: Only to say, “Kol Hakavod”.

A: This was the true story of Yad Vashem. It’s a long story, but it had....you know, for me, it’s not a question I’m not interested in....(not clear) for me. Ambitions. What I have done to get there. I couldn’t find people who wanted to come with me because I couldn’t go on my own. it was very, very difficult. I did not know what for I am going there. What for I am going to Mauthausen? I will not take prisoners there or I will not set up bombing. Nothing. Just went there to have a look. I had never seen a concentration camp before. This was the first I saw. I’ve seen after the war in Poland though. But I succeeded in getting out the right stuff. I brought the whole office stuff together out - the papers. I have not been there in the office. I’ve been outside the gate because somebody has to be there, outside, and they were more suitable to go in than I.

Q: I still didn’t understand how you knew that there are such documents there.

A: How I knew? I didn’t know about it. I was told, I was told that somewhere in Germany, before that - I think it was inside Majdanek or something, in Poland - they found various documents and these gave them against the Germans, files, to tell, to talk. And this is what I knew and otherwise shouldn’t hear them. They found them - the army or the Russians or the Americans, I don’t know. They took away documents from other concentration camps. Why shouldn’t I take from these that are here? What will I take from there? What would you take from there? Would you take prisoners, sick people? If they are alive, they will still be alive. I knew that in two days or in a day the Russians will be there. I knew it, I knew where the Russians are.

Q: Well, this is really the most valuable thing that you could take.

A: Then I took these out. Intelligence. What can you take from such a place like...? What would you take? I didn’t care to take a prisoner and put him in the jeep and bring him back to the Polish headquarters. They would laugh at me. I wanted to bring back a ton of documents. What they had been doing, who was killed in these camps, who was not killed - everything was written there.

Q: Everything was written?

A: Everything in these files. You go and have a look at them. You will see what I mean, you will see what I am talking.

Q: That’s really a great thing and a great contribution to our history.

A: Look, I have done it only...not for financial reasons because I don’t need financially. It cost me more money and Yad Vashem hasn’t given me one penny. I don’t want that. I gave them a gift, a hundred thousand dollars - I gave them, in Yad Vashem. They didn’t give me anything and I didn’t need anything, but I came to the conclusion that the only thing....but my heart was broken when I lost it. I lost it.

Q: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Rand.

A: This is all the story I have to tell you.

Q: We will still have some.....Well, one by one. You take one and you explain what it is and then you take the second.

A: This is the medal which I received for the war in Tobruk and Monte Cassino.

A: Ach, this good, mamale,…Schechter…Auschwitz…Ischkowitz, Wolinort in Gemeinde Ischkowitz, in 1944. This is the Polish medal which is called Zlotek Czesc Zaslugi..

Q: Put this to the camera and explain that this is an example of this record that you...

A: This is an example of one of the forty thousand cards which we found in the concentration camp of Mauthausen.