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Menashe Milan Goldberger

Menashe Milan Goldberger

Testimony

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Good

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morning.

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Milan.

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Hi.

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Good morning.

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Where and when were you born?

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When and where?

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Yes. I was born in Vukovar. Yugoslavia.

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When?

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In 1928.

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Okay. Where is Vukovar?

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It's very close to the Hungarian border.

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It's a.

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But. I think it's called Croatia today.

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Croatia. It's close to the Hungarian.

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it was Hungarian oriented?

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This I wouldn't know.

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You were born there.

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I was just born there. I was maybe there two years.

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Did you visit it ever since?

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I've never been there.

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You've never been there since. No.

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So. I want you to begin with the background of the family.

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We'll begin with your father and his family as much as you know.

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What was your father's name?

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My father's name was Eugene Jacob Goldberger.

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Where was he born? Do you know?

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He was born in Bratislava.

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In Bratislava. Slovakia.

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I think it was Czechslovakia.

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Slovakia. Do you know who his parents were?

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No. They were all- I never seen them.

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But you know their names perhaps? Your grandparents?

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He had so many brothers but.

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Did you know something about your.

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I never know them. I think it was all they were gone by the time I was born.

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No one know brother or sister of your father you never know? Your uncle?

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Not really. No.

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And do you know anything about your grandparents from your father's side?

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Father's side. no.

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Not their name.

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Actually. he was born when his father was 65.

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but it was his second marriage.

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I think the first one must had died.

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You don't know his name. of your grandfather?

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My grandfather. my name is Menashe bin Jacob and he was Jacob bin Menashe.

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It went back and forth.

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Okay. Do you know what he did in Bratislava?

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Think they were Hazzan Name.

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Hazzan name?

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Yeah.

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So. so your father came from a very Orthodox family?

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Yeah. and Hazzan's family.

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He was also Hazzan?

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Yeah.

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That was his profession?

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That was his profession.

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Or he did it voluntarily?

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Was his profession.

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He was a Hazzan.

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That's how we came to be Vukovar.

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that was his first job as a Hazzan.

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So he came to live in a big school in Vukovar and Okay.

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But two years later he went to Czechoslovakia.

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He was a Hazzan there.

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Why did you not go to Czechoslovakia?

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It's a good question. I think my.

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In Bratislava?

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Yeah. in that neighborhood.

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In Slovakia?

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Yeah.

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Okay. Do you know if anybody from. like your grandfather.

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no your father actually or his brothers anybody served in the first world war?

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Took part?.

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I wouldn't know anything about his brothers or sisters basically.

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Or he himself? Did your father serve in the.

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No. he.

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Take part in first world war?

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No no. I think it was before he got married so he

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was about 91 years certainly I think so.

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But a religious people.

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So he went to Yeshiva in Slovakia?

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I think. Yeah.

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Okay. Anything else you know about the background of your father's family? Something?

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I wouldn't know because it was long before.

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He's the only one who came to Denmark from his side?

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Basically. yeah.

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You had no contact with.

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More of my mother's.

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We'll get to your mother's aside in a second.

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But from your father's side.

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He's the only one who got to Denmark.

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Yeah. that's right.

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There was no contact.

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I think they were all- but Hitler took them all I think.

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They all perished in the Holocaust?

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I think so.

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Okay. okay.

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So. tell us please about your mother and her family. Okay. what was her name?

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So. my mother was Hannah.

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Her maiden name?

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But we called her Hellen.

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She was a Seamstress.

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Okay. Her maiden name was?

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Berkovitz.

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Where was she born?

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That was in also Czechoslovakia.

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Actually. It was a town called Sennett.

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Sennett in Czechoslovakia?

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Yeah.

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Okay. Do you know anything about her parents?.

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Her parents?

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Yeah.

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Yeah. they were also.

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What were their names do you know?

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Your grandparents from your mother's side you said maybe Menashe also.

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Could be? No?

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No. That was to my father's side.

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Do you know what your.

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Her parents Bokovich I can

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remember but I can't recall all of them.

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Okay. you never met them either?.

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I met my grandparents from her side.

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You did meet?

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I met.

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Okay.

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Actually we moved to Montreal after the war.

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So they survived the war?

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Yeah they survived.

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But they were also in Denmark?

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They were not.

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Where were they?

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They once came to visit us.

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Her sister came to visit.

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So. let's take it step-by-step.

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Your mother had brothers and sisters that you knew?

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Yeah some I knew yeah.

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So. tell us about those that you knew their names if you know.

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The Gábor Berkovitz.

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He was a Hazzan also

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In Sennett?

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In Sennett. but when he got married I guess somewhere there.

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Then when my father went to Montreal.

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he got him to Montreal also.

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From where? From Czechoslovakia?

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Yeah.

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So. they survived the war in Czechoslovakia?

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They must survived.

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Also your grandparents survived the war? Yeah.

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Okay. But in Czechoslovakia not in Denmark?

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No no nobody. they were not.

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But you know how they survived?

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They were hiding. they were camps.

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Think they were hiding.

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Okay. So. there was one brother Gabo?

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Yeah.

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Who else do you remember from you mother's side?

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Some girls some girls Rosie.

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The is few girls but right now they lived

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in Israel even not far from Tel Aviv.

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Okay. Your mother grew up in Sennett?

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Yeah.

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Okay. She was Seamstress there in Sennett?

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She went to a bigger town but maybe in Bratislava somewhere.

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Where did she meet your father?.

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That's how she met my father.

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In Bratislava. Okay. So. do you know what year they got married?

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They got married two years before I was born I guess it's.

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In 1926?

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Something like that.

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Okay. How many children were you?

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You were four.

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We were four boys.

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You're the oldest?

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I am the eldest.

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Okay. so you're the oldest born 1928?

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Yeah.

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Tell us about your brothers.

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My brother.

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After you.

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comes Leo. the professor.

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When was he born?

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He was also born in Vukovar.

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But what year?

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A year later. year and a half later.

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Okay. and after Leo?

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Then we went away and we went back to Czechoslovakia and then

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somehow in 35 around 35 he felt that something is happening.

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In Europe.

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In Europe.

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Your father felt? But your other two brothers were born afterwards?

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Afterwards. I Gustav he's a lawyer in Washington.

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He was born in Czechoslovakia still.

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What year do you remember?

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1935 or something? Before?

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Before that.

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Then. he is he was he was looking for a job another job.

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He saw an add in Kobenhavn some newspaper.

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They wanted a Hazzan.

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So. he went there to apply or he wrote them to apply.

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They liked what they had.

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Then they brought a moving track

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to Czechoslovakia and they brought them to Denmark. Kobenhavn.

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This is in 1935?

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Roughly.

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You were around what?

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Seven when you moved to Kobenhavn?

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Six.

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Okay. Before we talk about your life and Kobenhavn and then

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just to complete the fourth brother was born already in Kobenhavn.

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Yeah.

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What was his name?

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Eric.

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Eric.

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His last name is a Danish name. Khaim I think.

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Okay. Do you have any memories of your life in you Yugoslavia.

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Czechoslovakia Bratislava. that area?

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Do you have any memories?

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Did you go to school?

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Over there it was- I don't think so because I was trying too much.

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I don't know. Not really.

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You don't recall Kindergarten or.

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That was later in Kobenhavn.

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I remember being in the Kindergarten.

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So you must have arrived before '35.

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Fourty/thirty four may.

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Because by that time you were already school age.

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I can't remember.

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I was in Kindergarten.

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But any memories of Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia your life there?

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What language did you speak at home?

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I couldn't say.

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My mother spoke German and her language.

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Slovakian?

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But I.

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Your father. what did he speak?

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Well. I think they spoke German too.

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German or Yiddish?

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Between themselves they spoke Hungarian.

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Hungarian. because he came from Yugoslavia

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the Hungarian side or Slovakia was also influenced of the.

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Basically Hungarian.

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It was the empire.

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the Austro Hungarian empire those days.

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That's what they say.

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Okay. But what did they speak with you?

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What was your mother tongue?

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Well. in Denmark I spoke Danish.

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Danish.

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But they spoke German.

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My mother spoke German to us.

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So you spoke German?

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So I could speak that also.

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German. No Yiddish?

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But Yiddish. I mean. this is.

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more or less. it's a combination of Yiddish-German.

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Did they know other languages?

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My father knew Hungarian. He spoke Hungarian to each other.

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Slovak maybe?

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Yeah. They must have known that.

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Did they know also French or English?

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No. English?

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My father had been in Montreal for 20 years. He speaks English now.

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Okay. this is now. But when you were a child it was?

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As a child. I wouldn't know really.

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Okay. So. when you were a kid.

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they moved to Denmark because your father got a position as a Hazzan in Kobenhavn.

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The main community of course.

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Exactly.

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So. you moved to Kobenhavn and that's where your memories. more or less. begin.

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Basically. yes.

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Okay. I want to begin with Jewish life in your home because it was an orthodox.

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That's an orthodox family.

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So. I want your memories.

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First of all. of course. the Cape Kosher.

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Shabbat Shabbos.

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So. I want you to describe how was Shabbos.

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Your mother worked. You said she was?

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She did some sewing at home.

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Also in Kobenhavn?

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For peer or her friends.

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Also in Kobenhavn?

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Wedding gowns and stuff. She was very good at it.

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In Kobenhavn as well?

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In Kobenhavn also.

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Okay. Where did you live in Kobenhavn?

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Where?

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In a city in Kobenhavn that arrived very close to the shore.

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Close to the shore. The community gave you an apartment or you had to rent or you bought?

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No. we had to rent an apartment.

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It was a rented apartment?

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Yeah. It was all rented apartment.

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Do you remember it? Was it a large apartment?

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Yeah. It was a rather pretty good.

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Modern. convenient.

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Modern. yeah.

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Okay. Did she have any help at all?

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In fact. the Danish king I saw him.

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We'll talk about it in a minute.

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Driving over us everyday.

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Okay. You're talking about Christian the 10th?

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That's right.

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We'll talk about it in a second. We'll get to that.

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I just want to concentrate first about your family and Jewish life.

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Did your mother have any help at her home?

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Did you have a maid or someone to clean the house?

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That we had.

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Goyish?

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Yeah. usually.

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Did they live with you or just came?

00:13:50.080 00:13:52.380

No. They came in the morning.

00:13:52.380 00:13:55.990

Okay. So tell us about Shabbos.

00:13:55.990 00:13:57.930

How did they do Shabbos.

00:13:57.930 00:14:01.565

Your father would go every day to shul because he was a Hazzan.

00:14:01.565 00:14:03.065

So. every day. he was in shul.

00:14:03.065 00:14:04.670

Of course. to Shabbat.

00:14:04.670 00:14:07.065

Did the women go to shul as well?

00:14:07.065 00:14:08.560

Some did. yeah.

00:14:08.560 00:14:10.280

Your mother?

00:14:11.680 00:14:15.590

No. she was busy with the family.

00:14:15.590 00:14:19.370

I don't think you'd see her too often. Maybe Yontiv.

00:14:19.370 00:14:22.830

Yontiv. So what were the preparation for Shishi Shabbat?

00:14:22.830 00:14:24.620

You have to get ready.

00:14:24.620 00:14:27.140

What? Did she cook special thing?

00:14:27.140 00:14:33.230

She did all the cooking like whatever the people eat on Shabbat.

00:14:33.230 00:14:38.630

Okay. But you know Jews all over the world eat different things in Shabbat.

00:14:38.630 00:14:41.365

I'm not sure. There are chicken and chicken soup.

00:14:41.365 00:14:46.210

Did they have like the gefilte fish and things like that was also traditional?

00:14:46.210 00:14:47.200

Yes. exactly.

00:14:47.200 00:14:50.025

Cholent and all that. Did they bake challos?

00:14:50.025 00:14:51.200

They bake challos also.

00:14:51.200 00:14:52.025

Also for Shabbat?

00:14:52.025 00:14:52.430

Yeah.

00:14:52.430 00:14:57.610

Okay. So there must have been candle lighting. kiddush. everything?

00:14:57.610 00:14:58.240

They got it.

00:14:58.240 00:14:59.695

Were there Zmiros?

00:14:59.695 00:15:00.850

Also. certainly.

00:15:00.850 00:15:03.070

Yeah? You used to sing around the table?

00:15:03.070 00:15:03.460

Yeah.

00:15:03.460 00:15:07.100

Okay. Your memories from the holidays.

00:15:07.100 00:15:08.035

The holidays?

00:15:08.035 00:15:10.475

Yes. Let's begin with Rosh Hashanah.

00:15:10.475 00:15:12.950

Whatever everybody do.

00:15:12.950 00:15:15.905

Did they wear special things.

00:15:15.905 00:15:18.860

clothes for Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur?

00:15:18.860 00:15:22.910

Yeah. People usually bought new suits in Yontiv. yeah.

00:15:22.910 00:15:27.100

In East Europe at least and also even in North Africa.

00:15:27.100 00:15:29.635

Yom Kippur they used to wear white.

00:15:29.635 00:15:31.260

Everything was white in Yom Kippur.

00:15:31.260 00:15:32.780

Some do and some don't.

00:15:32.780 00:15:35.330

Your father?

00:15:35.330 00:15:41.250

My father probably had a white hat on instead of a black one.

00:15:41.250 00:15:42.510

Hat of the cantor.

00:15:42.510 00:15:43.020

Yeah.

00:15:43.020 00:15:47.810

Yeah. okay. Everybody fast during Yom Kippur?

00:15:47.810 00:15:51.725

Yeah. I mean. it's a very religious synagogue.

00:15:51.725 00:15:57.560

But there was not too many Shabbat Shabbos people. Limited.

00:15:57.560 00:16:03.270

Really? Most of the community was not religious in Copenagen?

00:16:03.270 00:16:04.140

Not really. I don't think so.

00:16:04.140 00:16:05.370

Traditional. I suppose.

00:16:05.370 00:16:06.600

It's getting worse and worse.

00:16:06.600 00:16:08.615

Yeah. But I'm talking when you were a kid.

00:16:08.615 00:16:16.230

I mean. I didn't know that much.

00:16:16.230 00:16:17.445

People worked.

00:16:17.445 00:16:17.910

So traditional.

00:16:17.910 00:16:21.275

The young people. they sat on shul all day long.

00:16:21.275 00:16:22.940

Did you have the cust-?

00:16:22.940 00:16:27.350

My father knew how to say all these davening all through.

00:16:27.350 00:16:34.370

We don't have no two hour. what do you call that?

00:16:34.370 00:16:36.370

He was a professional.

00:16:36.370 00:16:38.260

He led the prayer.

00:16:38.260 00:16:44.895

Yeah. I know. But he have two hours or three hours vacation.

00:16:44.895 00:16:47.050

What do you call that? They go away for a while.

00:16:47.050 00:16:47.700

Intermission.

00:16:47.700 00:16:54.980

We went chant through whole of the davening through the whole day without stopping

00:16:54.980 00:16:58.810

Do they have the custom like they did in East Europe and they still do it in Israel.

00:16:58.810 00:17:01.610

really religious with the Kappores with the chicken?

00:17:01.610 00:17:03.065

Yes. they did that too.

00:17:03.065 00:17:04.250

They did that in Denmark?

00:17:04.250 00:17:04.945

Yeah.

00:17:04.945 00:17:05.680

Okay.

00:17:05.680 00:17:08.370

That's regular religious as usual.

00:17:08.370 00:17:10.435

What do you remember of Sukkots?

00:17:10.435 00:17:11.950

Sukkots. same thing.

00:17:11.950 00:17:14.385

We had a sukkah in our backyard.

00:17:14.385 00:17:16.730

Not only in the synagogue.

00:17:16.730 00:17:17.980

each family had one.

00:17:17.980 00:17:19.560

They had in shul and they had at home.

00:17:19.560 00:17:20.610

So yeah. We had.

00:17:20.610 00:17:24.375

Not everybody did. but religious people usually did.

00:17:24.375 00:17:26.280

Did have sukkahs.

00:17:26.280 00:17:31.710

They used to eat or sleep or it's too cold in Europe to sleep in the sukkah?

00:17:31.710 00:17:34.395

Yeah. but we ate there all the time.

00:17:34.395 00:17:35.745

Okay.

00:17:35.745 00:17:39.950

Yes. sleeping wasn't 100 percent. Sometimes we did.

00:17:39.950 00:17:40.635

It's cold.

00:17:40.635 00:17:41.245

Yeah.

00:17:41.245 00:17:43.620

What about Simchat Torah?

00:17:44.010 00:17:49.840

They gave candy in shul like they do everywhere I believe.

00:17:49.840 00:17:52.150

Hanukkah. do you remember?

00:17:52.150 00:17:55.105

Hanukkah is also like any Hanukkah.

00:17:55.105 00:17:58.010

We light the candles and we have parties.

00:17:58.010 00:17:59.870

Did you play with dreidels?

00:17:59.870 00:18:01.610

Dreidels. yes.

00:18:01.610 00:18:02.705

There's a lot of them.

00:18:02.705 00:18:03.575

Okay.

00:18:03.575 00:18:06.700

If you were religious. you would do the usual like everybody else does.

00:18:06.700 00:18:08.650

Yeah. but you know there are differences between

00:18:08.650 00:18:12.965

different Jewish communities in traditions and all kinds.

00:18:12.965 00:18:14.640

Not the same food always.

00:18:14.640 00:18:15.835

Not the same customs.

00:18:15.835 00:18:19.010

They might considered us as Ashkenazi.

00:18:19.010 00:18:21.095

The Ashkenazis.

00:18:21.095 00:18:22.235

Yekkish.

00:18:22.235 00:18:23.735

Yekkish. yeah.

00:18:23.735 00:18:25.880

What about Tu BiShvat?

00:18:25.880 00:18:27.890

Is that something you celebrated in Denmark?

00:18:27.890 00:18:30.035

Tu BiShvat also.

00:18:30.035 00:18:33.155

They celebrated all these.

00:18:33.155 00:18:37.730

Okay. What do you remember of Purim?

00:18:37.730 00:18:40.130

Purim. the same thing we do here.

00:18:40.130 00:18:41.960

You got into customs?

00:18:41.960 00:18:42.985

Also.

00:18:42.985 00:18:48.620

Yeah. and Mishloach manot. and things like that. everything.

00:18:48.620 00:18:48.995

Yeah.

00:18:48.995 00:18:52.070

Okay. Tell us more in detail about Pesach because

00:18:52.070 00:18:56.330

that's like the holiday. the Jewish holiday.

00:18:56.330 00:18:57.665

So tell us about Pesach.

00:18:57.665 00:19:01.010

What do you remember about the preparations for Pesach?

00:19:01.010 00:19:03.780

We had to clean the house.

00:19:03.780 00:19:06.795

Clean the house or turn it over?

00:19:06.795 00:19:10.265

Well. basically. it's like any Jewish home.

00:19:10.265 00:19:11.875

Okay. what about mats?

00:19:11.875 00:19:15.245

They bought. they made. everyone made?

00:19:15.245 00:19:21.025

They got it from somewhere or they make it.

00:19:21.025 00:19:23.755

Round or square?

00:19:23.755 00:19:30.025

The hand mats. it's usually round and the other ones sometimes square.

00:19:30.025 00:19:31.840

When it comes from a machine. it comes square.

00:19:31.840 00:19:34.370

So everything was organized through the community?

00:19:34.370 00:19:35.645

Yeah. exactly.

00:19:35.645 00:19:37.735

Do you remember the Seder?

00:19:37.735 00:19:40.210

Tell us a little bit your memories of the Seder.

00:19:40.210 00:19:44.030

It was only your family or you had relatives.

00:19:44.030 00:19:45.400

friends coming for the Seder?

00:19:45.400 00:19:48.640

We had. but I can't remember how many we had.

00:19:48.640 00:19:51.675

but it's the same.

00:19:51.675 00:19:54.900

You actually didn't have family in Kobenhavn.

00:19:54.900 00:19:55.470

Basically. no.

00:19:55.470 00:19:57.990

It was only your nuclear family.

00:19:57.990 00:20:02.580

Except once I think of my mother's sister came.

00:20:02.580 00:20:03.865

What was her name?

00:20:03.865 00:20:06.100

I think it was Rosie.

00:20:06.100 00:20:07.430

They came to live in Denmark?

00:20:07.430 00:20:10.260

No. She came over to visit I believe.

00:20:10.260 00:20:12.600

She didn't stay. She didn't remain?

00:20:12.600 00:20:13.860

Didn't stay. no.

00:20:13.860 00:20:14.710

Okay. So you were the only.

00:20:14.710 00:20:17.320

I think they went to Israel afterwards I believe.

00:20:17.320 00:20:19.735

I see. So what do you remember from the Seder?

00:20:19.735 00:20:24.030

You used to read the Haggadah in L'chaim in lashon kodesh. in Hebrew?

00:20:24.030 00:20:28.105

In the way the goddess says.

00:20:28.105 00:20:30.670

Or in translation to German?

00:20:30.670 00:20:31.750

No. We read it in the way it's in the suits.

00:20:31.750 00:20:33.370

Everything in lashon kodesh.

00:20:33.370 00:20:34.060

Yeah. exactly.

00:20:34.060 00:20:36.790

Okay. Did you have two sdarim?

00:20:36.790 00:20:42.160

Like the custom in chutz la aretz?

00:20:42.160 00:20:42.770

Yeah.

00:20:42.770 00:20:43.310

Okay.

00:20:43.310 00:20:44.720

All these was changed over here.

00:20:44.720 00:20:48.290

Yeah. when you came to Israel. No two Seders.

00:20:48.290 00:20:48.830

That's right.

00:20:48.830 00:20:49.940

Okay.

00:20:49.940 00:20:52.650

That's why we are not leaving.

00:20:52.660 00:20:55.610

You say it's nicer to have one?

00:20:55.610 00:20:57.435

It's a lot of work for the women.

00:20:57.435 00:20:58.290

It's easier.

00:20:58.290 00:21:02.615

It's easier than two. Just imagine for the women to prepare two.

00:21:02.615 00:21:07.740

Okay. so we continue with Lag BaOmer. Shovuos.

00:21:07.740 00:21:09.980

There's no difference.

00:21:09.980 00:21:12.030

It's a religious shul.

00:21:12.030 00:21:13.210

Okay.

00:21:13.210 00:21:18.200

At that time. there was a rabbi Fridiger.

00:21:18.200 00:21:20.290

They caught him and they took him to Germany.

00:21:20.290 00:21:21.765

but he came back.

00:21:21.765 00:21:24.830

But he could still come back.

00:21:24.830 00:21:27.435

But he was a real religious hero.

00:21:27.435 00:21:28.700

Long beard and all.

00:21:28.700 00:21:30.195

He was the chief rabbi?

00:21:30.195 00:21:31.645

At that time. yes.

00:21:31.645 00:21:33.370

When did Malkiel become?

00:21:33.370 00:21:35.450

Afterwards.

00:21:36.160 00:21:39.440

It was after the war or before the war?

00:21:39.440 00:21:43.190

Also before and after. he came back.

00:21:43.190 00:21:52.220

So. in 45. I have a picture where they made like a papaya fest in the shul.

00:21:52.220 00:21:53.245

In the shul. yeah.

00:21:53.245 00:21:58.175

He was there with [inaudible]. Another car. there were two cars on them.

00:21:58.175 00:21:59.670

They'd switch every week.

00:21:59.670 00:22:01.605

Is that the first that the king came?

00:22:01.605 00:22:03.630

There was some kind of an event that the king.

00:22:03.630 00:22:06.900

Yeah. but he was 100 years old.

00:22:06.900 00:22:08.175

it's a very old shul.

00:22:08.175 00:22:09.870

Yes. yes. Okay.

00:22:09.870 00:22:10.720

They came to visit.

00:22:10.720 00:22:13.325

I want to ask you about the Jewish.

00:22:13.325 00:22:16.015

before the war. the Jewish community.

00:22:16.015 00:22:22.625

As you said. your family was very involved because your father had his role.

00:22:22.625 00:22:24.085

Did they have other?

00:22:24.085 00:22:25.700

I wasn't involved.

00:22:25.700 00:22:26.510

Yeah. you were a kid.

00:22:26.510 00:22:26.650

I was a kid.

00:22:26.650 00:22:29.605

But besides the shul.

00:22:29.605 00:22:32.445

did they have other institute?

00:22:32.445 00:22:36.860

Like was there a Jewish club where they met or?

00:22:36.860 00:22:38.885

I recall I had something...

00:22:38.885 00:22:43.460

So there were sports organization like kwok. Were you involved?

00:22:43.460 00:22:44.505

I was involved..

00:22:44.505 00:22:45.330

What did you do in the kwok?

00:22:45.330 00:22:48.510

I played football. soccer as you called it. Yeah.

00:22:48.510 00:22:49.805

Soccer in the kwok.

00:22:49.805 00:22:51.380

But this is before the war even?

00:22:51.380 00:22:53.530

From school. we learned.

00:22:53.530 00:22:56.350

we went to a place where there was soccer.

00:22:56.350 00:23:00.435

There was one shul right in Kobenhavn?

00:23:00.435 00:23:01.790

There was one big shul.

00:23:01.790 00:23:03.410

The other one. years ago.

00:23:03.410 00:23:04.640

they were probably together.

00:23:04.640 00:23:08.850

but then the more religious people they went together on prayers.

00:23:08.850 00:23:11.310

Right. The Ashkenazis. the Haredin.

00:23:11.310 00:23:13.410

There were more Haredin. right?

00:23:13.410 00:23:13.620

Yeah.

00:23:13.620 00:23:16.150

Hasidic. Haredin. right? They had their own.

00:23:16.150 00:23:18.215

They're called Mahasida Hadas.

00:23:18.215 00:23:20.160

It was in a different neighborhood.

00:23:20.160 00:23:22.330

They still have it. but they don't have a minion and Shabbos.

00:23:22.330 00:23:25.650

And was there any connection between the two communities or they're?

00:23:25.650 00:23:26.940

I mean. they knew each other.

00:23:26.940 00:23:28.830

but they weren't friends.

00:23:28.830 00:23:31.455

There was not a boycott or anything?

00:23:31.455 00:23:33.120

No. I don't know.

00:23:33.120 00:23:35.820

My father was supposedly he belongs to the big shul.

00:23:35.820 00:23:39.870

So. he couldn't go there the others place all.

00:23:39.870 00:23:41.940

but they were all friendly though to him.

00:23:41.940 00:23:44.310

Okay. So. the community had.

00:23:44.310 00:23:45.720

But he had to be a diplomat.

00:23:45.720 00:23:48.705

So. your synagogue was

00:23:48.705 00:23:52.090

the big synagogue and most of the community went to your synagogue.

00:23:52.090 00:23:52.430

Yeah. Yeah.

00:23:52.430 00:23:54.405

Of course. they were the minority.

00:23:54.405 00:23:56.975

Did they have a mikveh? Did they have-?

00:23:56.975 00:23:58.130

They had a mikveh.

00:23:58.130 00:24:02.055

We had a mikveh also in a different place.

00:24:02.055 00:24:05.820

Okay. And there was a pray there.

00:24:05.820 00:24:09.570

was there a shiva? When you go to school.

00:24:09.570 00:24:11.470

We went to the Jewish shul school.

00:24:11.470 00:24:12.800

Okay. You went to a Jewish school.

00:24:12.800 00:24:20.235

And there they had a Jewish class and bible whatever.

00:24:20.235 00:24:22.410

And did you also study Hebrew?

00:24:22.410 00:24:24.575

No. that we didn't have.

00:24:24.575 00:24:28.710

You didn't have. So. the school was for boys and girls together or?

00:24:28.710 00:24:31.210

No. The girl had another school somewhere else.

00:24:31.210 00:24:32.580

So. it was separated.

00:24:32.580 00:24:34.300

But today it has changed.

00:24:34.300 00:24:35.650

Now. there it's together somewhere else.

00:24:35.650 00:24:38.880

Okay. But the language that you studied in school.

00:24:38.880 00:24:43.160

and you went to school until the war. until you escaped?

00:24:43.160 00:24:47.715

Yeah. but I finished this seventh grade.

00:24:47.715 00:24:51.165

Yeah. The Jewish school was seven or also high school?

00:24:51.165 00:24:54.300

How many grades were there in the Jewish school?

00:24:54.300 00:24:55.380

I think it's seven.

00:24:55.380 00:24:55.875

Seven.

00:24:55.875 00:24:56.150

Yeah.

00:24:56.150 00:24:57.670

And then you would go to a high school?

00:24:57.670 00:25:01.515

I went to a business school later.

00:25:01.515 00:25:02.590

Okay. we'll talk about that.

00:25:02.590 00:25:04.405

But let's talk about your Jewish school.

00:25:04.405 00:25:06.940

The Jewish school was seven years I believe.

00:25:06.940 00:25:08.075

And what language?

00:25:08.075 00:25:09.335

In Danish.

00:25:09.335 00:25:10.540

In Danish?

00:25:10.540 00:25:10.925

Yeah. yeah.

00:25:10.925 00:25:13.350

The teachers were all Jews or they're also-?

00:25:13.350 00:25:14.205

No. It's a mix.

00:25:14.205 00:25:17.770

They're mix. But the students were all Jews. of course?

00:25:17.770 00:25:18.880

The guy in the Bible.

00:25:18.880 00:25:21.560

he was the valkyrie from the shul.

00:25:21.560 00:25:22.890

He was there also.

00:25:22.890 00:25:25.995

But all the students obviously were Jews of course.

00:25:25.995 00:25:27.820

And all your friends were from school?

00:25:27.820 00:25:32.430

But the main guy.

00:25:32.430 00:25:34.900

the principal. he wasn't Jewish.

00:25:34.900 00:25:35.640

He wasn't Jewish?

00:25:35.640 00:25:36.135

No.

00:25:36.135 00:25:36.885

Okay.

00:25:36.885 00:25:38.310

His name was Piola.

00:25:38.310 00:25:40.770

But he was a nice guy otherwise.

00:25:40.770 00:25:44.225

But you studied all the secular subjects as well.

00:25:44.225 00:25:44.650

Yeah. Yeah.

00:25:44.650 00:25:48.365

Okay. What kind of a student were you?

00:25:48.365 00:25:51.355

I wasn't too bright. I don't think.

00:25:51.355 00:25:53.075

You didn't like going to school?

00:25:53.075 00:25:54.870

Yeah. I guess I did.

00:25:54.870 00:25:57.560

but in math and stuff.

00:25:57.560 00:25:59.060

I wasn't too bright.

00:25:59.060 00:26:02.465

I don't think. but then I went to business school afterwards.

00:26:02.465 00:26:03.790

Okay. So. we'll talk about later.

00:26:03.790 00:26:06.595

But I never finished it because then. I had to run away.

00:26:06.595 00:26:10.644

Okay we'll talk about that. Okay. So. your friends.

00:26:10.644 00:26:13.480

were all Jews or did you have also Danish?

00:26:13.480 00:26:14.600

In school. all people are Jewish.

00:26:14.600 00:26:16.180

No. But in the neighborhood. in the street.

00:26:16.180 00:26:18.385

The neighborhood was anybody.

00:26:18.385 00:26:20.190

Did you have a gentile friends there?

00:26:20.190 00:26:29.060

Yeah basically. I guess I had few friends from school basically I believe.

00:26:29.060 00:26:31.870

Okay. What did you do besides Akoah.

00:26:31.870 00:26:33.595

What did you do after school?

00:26:33.595 00:26:35.550

What kind of games did you play as a kid?

00:26:35.550 00:26:37.655

After school. we're looking for girls. I don't know.

00:26:37.655 00:26:39.445

That's when you were a teenager.

00:26:39.445 00:26:41.620

but when you were young.

00:26:41.620 00:26:44.000

Games? Do you remember games you played?

00:26:44.000 00:26:45.890

I must have.

00:26:45.890 00:26:50.595

Well. I must have gone out when I'm a kid with other school guys.

00:26:50.595 00:26:52.620

and we had a bike.

00:26:52.620 00:26:54.270

And so. we drove around or something.

00:26:54.270 00:27:01.360

You drove around. Okay. I want to talk about the atmosphere at your home.

00:27:01.360 00:27:04.555

First of all. your parents came in the 30's.

00:27:04.555 00:27:07.790

There were two kinds of Jewish Danes.

00:27:07.790 00:27:11.320

There were the old Yekkes who came centuries before.

00:27:11.320 00:27:13.270

They came from. Russian mostly.

00:27:13.270 00:27:17.160

Also Russians who came after the revolution.

00:27:17.160 00:27:19.140

But even before the Russians.

00:27:19.140 00:27:23.640

there were the Yekkes. the German Jews who came centuries before.

00:27:23.640 00:27:27.830

And you came actually as immigrants in the 30's.

00:27:27.830 00:27:28.760

That's right.

00:27:28.760 00:27:30.990

Could you tell the difference within

00:27:30.990 00:27:34.490

the Jewish community and the attitude from those who were-?

00:27:34.490 00:27:36.745

I don't think. I was a kid. still a kid.

00:27:36.745 00:27:37.810

You weren't aware of it?

00:27:37.810 00:27:38.940

No. I wasn't aware of all these things.

00:27:38.940 00:27:40.720

You think your father was aware of the.

00:27:40.720 00:27:42.400

He must have been. Yeah.

00:27:42.400 00:27:45.430

Did they look down at the Jewish immigrant?

00:27:45.430 00:27:47.030

Yeah. they do that.

00:27:47.030 00:27:49.730

They called them old student or something like that?

00:27:49.730 00:27:51.215

Exactly. So. you know more than I do.

00:27:51.215 00:27:53.540

No. I'm asking if you felt it. If you felt.

00:27:53.540 00:27:55.170

Me. I don't feel it.

00:27:55.170 00:27:56.670

I don't. I was a kid.

00:27:56.670 00:27:58.245

I mean I didn't.

00:27:58.245 00:28:00.340

You know sometimes kids can feel it between the kids.

00:28:00.340 00:28:03.000

I'm not. I wasn't developed the way people are today.

00:28:03.000 00:28:03.720

I understand.

00:28:03.720 00:28:06.000

The boys. they know much more than I.

00:28:06.000 00:28:10.680

You weren't aware. But sometimes kids are aware of it even within

00:28:10.680 00:28:16.290

kids because some kids come from more aristocratic families.

00:28:16.290 00:28:19.380

But personally. I wasn't so deep in

00:28:19.380 00:28:24.510

things like my brother were probably especially the other.

00:28:24.510 00:28:26.840

Okay. Your home in Kobenhavn.

00:28:26.840 00:28:29.230

Before. we're talking still before the war.

00:28:29.230 00:28:30.870

You had a radio.

00:28:30.870 00:28:32.595

you had a phonograph.

00:28:32.595 00:28:33.415

Yeah.

00:28:33.415 00:28:34.320

Piano?

00:28:34.320 00:28:35.030

Piano.

00:28:35.030 00:28:36.295

Who played the piano?

00:28:36.295 00:28:38.160

My father needed it.

00:28:38.160 00:28:43.740

and I took piano lessons from some lady.

00:28:43.740 00:28:45.345

widow lady or something.

00:28:45.345 00:28:47.520

What kind of music did they listen to?

00:28:47.520 00:28:49.360

It was classical. all classical stuff.

00:28:49.360 00:28:51.055

Classical. And Hazzanut as well?

00:28:51.055 00:28:51.820

No. not then.

00:28:51.820 00:28:53.280

Not Hazzanut? Because your father was a Hazzan.

00:28:53.280 00:28:57.980

Yeah. I know. but that's because she had all kinds of pupils.

00:28:57.980 00:28:59.465

He was teaching also?

00:28:59.465 00:29:02.140

And twice a year.

00:29:02.140 00:29:03.810

she made a party for everybody.

00:29:03.810 00:29:06.110

They all came together. everybody had to show off.

00:29:06.110 00:29:07.590

It was murder.

00:29:07.590 00:29:09.865

I was scared stiff.

00:29:09.865 00:29:12.665

Your father was teaching Hazzanut as well?

00:29:12.665 00:29:14.800

He was. yeah. People liked him.

00:29:14.800 00:29:19.455

everybody liked him and some who were interested. they came.

00:29:19.455 00:29:25.080

He gave them voice lessons and stuff because my father worked on his voice all the time.

00:29:25.080 00:29:26.325

He had a very good voice.

00:29:26.325 00:29:30.330

Yeah. And he kept improving all the time.

00:29:30.330 00:29:33.090

He knew people from the opera.

00:29:33.090 00:29:35.515

That's what I wanted to ask. Did he go to the opera?

00:29:35.515 00:29:37.220

He. I didn't.

00:29:37.220 00:29:42.690

I'm talking about my father was all in all of the big singers.

00:29:44.300 00:29:48.140

Today. I mean I like singing also. I mean.

00:29:48.140 00:29:51.810

but I never got into it but.

00:29:51.810 00:29:53.960

Did they read newspapers as well?

00:29:53.960 00:29:54.830

Yeah.

00:29:54.830 00:29:55.370

In Danish?

00:29:55.370 00:29:56.405

Yeah. In Danish.

00:29:56.405 00:29:57.925

In Danish. Yeah. Okay.

00:29:57.925 00:30:00.690

And so. there're some Jews to be paid also.

00:30:00.690 00:30:03.400

They had some. I didn't but.

00:30:03.400 00:30:05.005

You mentioned the opera.

00:30:05.005 00:30:07.780

Did they also go out like to the-?

00:30:07.780 00:30:11.150

My father anything with a good singer. he would go.

00:30:11.150 00:30:13.705

But he was a piano-ling and all these guys.

00:30:13.705 00:30:15.625

Yeah. I'm sure he went.

00:30:15.625 00:30:17.170

I didn't. but I'm just saying.

00:30:17.170 00:30:20.285

Did they go to the theater. to the cinema?

00:30:20.285 00:30:21.710

Did you go as a kid to the cinema?

00:30:21.710 00:30:23.690

Yeah. once in a while. we went to the movies. yeah.

00:30:23.690 00:30:25.680

What did you see? Do you remember those days?

00:30:25.680 00:30:28.270

Are you kidding?

00:30:28.270 00:30:31.050

The old [inaudible] Those old pictures.

00:30:31.050 00:30:32.925

Okay. yeah. Okay.

00:30:32.925 00:30:37.400

But we didn't have money to go. I mean. I didn't.

00:30:37.400 00:30:40.680

What was your economic situation before the war?

00:30:40.680 00:30:41.990

The family situation.

00:30:41.990 00:30:44.055

Well. before I wouldn't know.

00:30:44.055 00:30:47.400

My father. he got salary.

00:30:47.400 00:30:50.745

but I don't think it was the best. That's why.

00:30:50.745 00:30:53.400

You weren't rich to put it bluntly?

00:30:53.400 00:30:55.210

No. That's why when he came to America.

00:30:55.210 00:30:57.125

he came as a student.

00:30:57.125 00:31:00.605

So. he used to ask his friends in Kobenhavn.

00:31:00.605 00:31:02.470

"What if I get a better job?

00:31:02.470 00:31:03.895

Should I stay?"

00:31:03.895 00:31:06.360

You know he was one of those people.

00:31:06.360 00:31:09.600

And they'll say. "You're crazy if you'll stay."

00:31:09.600 00:31:12.380

If you got some double salary or something.

00:31:12.380 00:31:15.615

you must be. Okay.

00:31:15.615 00:31:18.640

Was there such a thing as a vacation?

00:31:18.640 00:31:21.460

Yeah. In summer. we went on a summer house.

00:31:21.460 00:31:22.490

You had a summer house?

00:31:22.490 00:31:23.870

Near the beach. I mean. he didn't have it.

00:31:23.870 00:31:27.790

He rented as summer place all these different places.

00:31:27.790 00:31:28.340

In Denmark?

00:31:28.340 00:31:29.450

Near the beach. Yeah.

00:31:29.450 00:31:32.595

Okay. Not abroad or anything?

00:31:32.595 00:31:33.240

No. No.

00:31:33.240 00:31:38.600

They left Europe in early 1930s.

00:31:38.600 00:31:39.810

I assume. your parents?

00:31:39.810 00:31:40.700

Yeah.

00:31:40.700 00:31:43.460

Your family. your father.

00:31:43.460 00:31:45.190

his whole family was in Europe.

00:31:45.190 00:31:48.440

Your mother. part of the family I understand was still in Europe.

00:31:48.440 00:31:49.425

Yeah.

00:31:49.425 00:31:53.470

Were they still in contact until the war?

00:31:53.470 00:31:55.765

I think they did. but I wouldn't know.

00:31:55.765 00:31:58.950

It was not in my mind those things.

00:31:58.950 00:32:00.800

They never went for a visit?

00:32:00.800 00:32:02.010

Visit to Denmark?

00:32:02.010 00:32:03.985

Since they came to Kobenhavn.

00:32:03.985 00:32:08.520

they never visited their family in Bratislava or in Sinich or-?

00:32:08.520 00:32:11.325

I don't think so if you ask me. but I'm not sure.

00:32:11.325 00:32:15.240

And no one came to visit you except that aunt that you mentioned?

00:32:15.240 00:32:25.155

Well. maybe some other Yudelach came when I was [inaudible] bachelors. old bachelors.

00:32:25.155 00:32:27.680

But they spoke Hungarian.

00:32:27.680 00:32:31.640

so they were busy with my parents.

00:32:31.640 00:32:39.410

What kind of life in home was there?

00:32:39.490 00:32:41.875

How were you brought up?

00:32:41.875 00:32:43.240

Was there discipline?

00:32:43.240 00:32:46.105

What was the atmosphere at home when you grew up as a kid?

00:32:46.105 00:32:48.020

There was disciplne?

00:32:48.020 00:32:50.305

No. It's regular.

00:32:50.305 00:32:52.790

Nothing extraordinary.

00:32:52.790 00:32:55.390

We could do about this what we wanted.

00:32:55.390 00:33:02.410

But we knew that we were Jews. and so basically.

00:33:02.410 00:33:07.095

Yeah. Okay. So. if we're talking about that you knew that you were Jews.

00:33:07.095 00:33:08.385

Yeah.

00:33:08.385 00:33:11.435

The surrounding was all Danish.

00:33:11.435 00:33:12.005

Yeah.

00:33:12.005 00:33:15.090

So. before the war.

00:33:15.990 00:33:19.755

what was the relationship with the Danes. with the Gentiles?

00:33:19.755 00:33:21.485

We had no problems whatsoever.

00:33:21.485 00:33:22.610

No anti-semitism?

00:33:22.610 00:33:22.790

No.

00:33:22.790 00:33:26.340

You never encountered before the war any anti-semitism?

00:33:26.340 00:33:27.250

Before. no.

00:33:27.250 00:33:29.720

No one called you dirty Jew?

00:33:29.720 00:33:30.920

No.

00:33:31.910 00:33:35.115

Your father is a Jewish cantor.

00:33:35.115 00:33:38.590

Did he have Danish friends? Your father for instance.

00:33:38.590 00:33:40.180

He must have. yes. He had.

00:33:40.180 00:33:43.030

Because when we ran away. yes. he had friends.

00:33:43.030 00:33:44.230

They helped you?

00:33:44.230 00:33:44.995

Yeah.

00:33:44.995 00:33:50.370

Yeah. we'll get to that. But the Danes are Christians?

00:33:50.370 00:33:51.290

Yeah.

00:33:51.290 00:33:52.895

Did you know?

00:33:52.895 00:33:53.720

Protestants. I mean.

00:33:53.720 00:33:58.474

Right. Protestants. Did you know about their habits.

00:33:58.474 00:34:04.915

their customs. their holidays like Christmas or Easter?

00:34:04.915 00:34:07.375

Well. that too. you see that.

00:34:07.375 00:34:10.985

But did you visit friends at their homes?

00:34:10.985 00:34:13.765

Or. you were quite separated?

00:34:13.765 00:34:16.410

We were not far on purpose.

00:34:16.410 00:34:17.365

Yes.

00:34:17.365 00:34:23.990

I had my Jewish friends but that was not because I hated anybody or anything.

00:34:23.990 00:34:25.420

Yeah. So there were good relations.

00:34:25.420 00:34:26.380

Yes. good relations. Yes.

00:34:26.380 00:34:27.910

You even mention that you-

00:34:27.910 00:34:30.640

Even neighbors and stuff. we had never made problems with anybody.

00:34:30.640 00:34:33.785

Okay. You had mentioned the king.

00:34:33.785 00:34:34.790

Yes.

00:34:34.790 00:34:36.485

Christian the 10th.

00:34:36.485 00:34:38.545

Yes. I saw him every morning.

00:34:38.545 00:34:39.110

So. he was very-

00:34:39.110 00:34:41.960

He was passing by that apartment that we lived in.

00:34:41.960 00:34:44.240

The apartment buildings that we lived in.

00:34:44.240 00:34:44.930

Yes. How was he passing?

00:34:44.930 00:34:46.610

He was right next to a.

00:34:46.610 00:34:53.240

not beach. water very far at the camp I know.

00:34:53.240 00:34:55.970

Okay.

00:34:55.970 00:34:58.005

What do you call them? I don't know.

00:34:58.005 00:35:00.215

And he was a harbor or something?

00:35:00.215 00:35:03.360

Like in the winter with all the ice.

00:35:03.360 00:35:03.900

Freeze?

00:35:03.900 00:35:05.520

We went through the hole.

00:35:05.520 00:35:07.380

You went ice skating?

00:35:07.380 00:35:10.760

That also. but you can go through it. It's shorter to go there.

00:35:10.760 00:35:11.810

You can walk on it?

00:35:11.810 00:35:14.600

Yeah. It was shorter to go to school.

00:35:14.600 00:35:17.575

And so the king he rode on a horse or what?

00:35:17.575 00:35:20.320

On a horse. He was passing by

00:35:20.320 00:35:22.390

So. he was very popular.

00:35:22.390 00:35:24.040

Yeah. he was.

00:35:24.040 00:35:25.810

And did you ever speak-

00:35:25.810 00:35:26.905

In fact after the war.

00:35:26.905 00:35:31.830

my father sent them a letter and he got an answer from the royal camp.

00:35:31.830 00:35:33.535

Okay. we'll get to that.

00:35:33.535 00:35:35.945

I have that. I still have that.

00:35:35.945 00:35:42.070

Okay. So. what else do you remember life before the war?

00:35:42.070 00:35:47.060

Your childhood.

00:35:47.060 00:35:51.470

Any special events that you remember in the family?

00:35:53.440 00:35:55.805

Event. I don't know.

00:35:55.805 00:35:57.455

Comfortable life. right?

00:35:57.455 00:35:58.065

Yes.

00:35:58.065 00:35:59.370

Very secure.

00:35:59.370 00:36:02.780

Even as a Jewish community you felt Danish?

00:36:02.780 00:36:03.620

Yes.

00:36:03.620 00:36:05.840

As well Jewish but Danish?

00:36:05.840 00:36:08.230

I mean. I spoke the language so.

00:36:08.230 00:36:09.740

But you felt at home?

00:36:09.740 00:36:11.800

I felt at home. yes.

00:36:11.800 00:36:12.940

In Kobenhavn.

00:36:12.940 00:36:15.625

Yes. I still do.

00:36:15.625 00:36:16.975

Okay.

00:36:16.975 00:36:20.595

I still speak it and I can't wait to go back.

00:36:20.595 00:36:21.020

Yeah.

00:36:21.020 00:36:22.670

That's a sickness of mind.

00:36:22.670 00:36:24.785

I can't help it.

00:36:24.785 00:36:29.015

So let's talk about the political events in the '30s. okay?

00:36:29.015 00:36:34.290

So in 1933. you were about five years old

00:36:34.290 00:36:41.525

and I suspect that that's the time that you moved to Denmark perhaps.

00:36:41.525 00:36:43.380

Thirty-three. 34.

00:36:43.380 00:36:44.040

Okay.

00:36:44.040 00:36:45.810

From what you're saying. I assume.

00:36:45.810 00:36:48.330

because you said you went to kindergarten.

00:36:48.330 00:36:49.330

Yes.

00:36:49.330 00:36:52.790

So you must have been five years old when you went to kindergarten. right?

00:36:52.790 00:36:53.165

Yes.

00:36:53.165 00:36:57.200

Something like that. Well. I'm mentioning that year.

00:36:57.200 00:37:03.070

because that's the year that Hitler and the Nazis came to power in Germany.

00:37:03.070 00:37:04.500

So you were a kid.

00:37:04.500 00:37:06.025

you probably weren't aware.

00:37:06.025 00:37:11.360

I assume that you mentioned that perhaps your father was aware of what was going on.

00:37:11.360 00:37:11.930

Yes. he must have.

00:37:11.930 00:37:15.665

Okay. But during '39.

00:37:15.665 00:37:18.260

first of all. during the '30s.

00:37:18.260 00:37:21.705

as you were growing up. some Jews-

00:37:21.705 00:37:23.610

In the '40s.

00:37:23.610 00:37:25.110

I'm talking before that.

00:37:25.110 00:37:27.455

I'm talking in the '30s. late '30s.

00:37:27.455 00:37:30.750

when things became rough for German Jews.

00:37:30.750 00:37:31.230

Yeah.

00:37:31.230 00:37:34.985

Some of them tried to flee to Denmark.

00:37:34.985 00:37:38.030

Denmark didn't exactly opened its gates.

00:37:38.030 00:37:38.140

No.

00:37:38.140 00:37:40.660

In those days. There was a big issue. a big debate.

00:37:40.660 00:37:44.100

about taking in those refugees or not.

00:37:44.100 00:37:44.890

Yes. I know.

00:37:44.890 00:37:50.450

But do you remember Jewish refugees coming before the war to Kobenhavn?

00:37:50.450 00:37:51.220

I don't know.

00:37:51.220 00:37:55.370

You don't remember. In your school and children?

00:37:55.370 00:37:56.825

My mind wasn't.

00:37:56.825 00:37:57.860

You weren't aware?

00:37:57.860 00:37:58.100

Yeah.

00:37:58.100 00:38:01.160

Were you aware at all what was going on

00:38:01.160 00:38:05.620

with Nazi Germany that they were persecuting the Jews there?

00:38:05.620 00:38:07.450

Were you aware of those politics?

00:38:07.450 00:38:08.720

We're talking before the war.

00:38:08.720 00:38:09.710

Not really.

00:38:09.710 00:38:11.680

Did they talk about it at home?

00:38:11.680 00:38:13.675

No. I don't recall anymore.

00:38:13.675 00:38:16.839

Okay. first of September.

00:38:16.839 00:38:22.730

the Germans invade Poland and formally.

00:38:22.730 00:38:24.515

second World War begins.

00:38:24.515 00:38:26.174

We'll talk about Denmark in a second.

00:38:26.174 00:38:26.510

Yes.

00:38:26.510 00:38:32.375

Do you recall hearing about the World War breaking out?

00:38:32.375 00:38:34.340

Do you remember people talking about it?

00:38:34.340 00:38:35.195

I don't recall.

00:38:35.195 00:38:35.840

You don't recall?

00:38:35.840 00:38:36.280

No.

00:38:36.280 00:38:38.740

Because by then you were like 11.

00:38:38.740 00:38:41.205

Something like 11 years old.

00:38:41.205 00:38:44.990

but you were concentrated on your own child.

00:38:44.990 00:38:45.845

Yes. exactly.

00:38:45.845 00:38:47.120

I understand. but I'm just-

00:38:47.120 00:38:47.350

I was not.

00:38:47.350 00:38:48.420

Wondering if you heard in the news-

00:38:48.420 00:38:50.920

Not developed the way other people are today.

00:38:50.920 00:38:55.810

Do you remember if they heard Hitler's speeches like on the radio?

00:38:55.810 00:38:58.580

No. I have heard them now.

00:38:58.580 00:39:00.760

So. I'm not sure whether I heard it then.

00:39:00.760 00:39:03.730

Do you remember your parents talking about what's going on?

00:39:03.730 00:39:05.455

I don't recall.

00:39:05.455 00:39:09.530

But they felt at ease because they felt safe in Denmark in those days?

00:39:09.530 00:39:11.045

More or less. I think so.

00:39:11.045 00:39:14.450

Okay. So. '39 the war began.

00:39:14.450 00:39:19.425

April 40. the Germans conquer Denmark.

00:39:19.425 00:39:23.350

This is quite a surprise because Denmark wanted to be neutral.

00:39:23.350 00:39:27.270

I was not a sleeper so in the morning I got up early.

00:39:27.270 00:39:31.340

I play games by the window and stuff.

00:39:31.340 00:39:35.285

All of a sudden. you see a bunch of planes coming and so I knew that.

00:39:35.285 00:39:36.460

Were they bombing?

00:39:36.460 00:39:38.720

Not that day.

00:39:38.720 00:39:40.105

Okay. So how did-

00:39:40.105 00:39:41.125

That's when-

00:39:41.125 00:39:42.110

They took over.

00:39:42.110 00:39:42.545

They took over the place.

00:39:42.545 00:39:44.450

Okay. So what's the next thing?

00:39:44.450 00:39:46.585

And then king gave up right away it seems.

00:39:46.585 00:39:49.460

Okay. So once the Germans are in.

00:39:49.460 00:39:53.330

do you see German's troops marching into Kobenhavn?

00:39:53.330 00:39:56.230

No. but the soldiers were all over more or less. Yes.

00:39:56.230 00:39:59.740

Okay. Did you have any contact with the German soldiers?

00:39:59.740 00:40:01.060

Me. no. My father.

00:40:01.060 00:40:03.940

they took him in once.

00:40:03.940 00:40:04.660

The Germans?

00:40:04.660 00:40:11.330

He was talking music with some other Jew so they took him in. I don't know.

00:40:11.330 00:40:14.450

They must have thought they were talking politics or something.

00:40:14.450 00:40:17.075

But then in the evening.

00:40:17.075 00:40:19.940

they come out of the police station.

00:40:19.940 00:40:22.310

Okay. Once the Germans-

00:40:22.310 00:40:26.540

But the first until '43 the Jews didn't bother us.

00:40:26.540 00:40:27.500

You mean the Germans?

00:40:27.500 00:40:30.055

The Germans didn't bother us.

00:40:30.055 00:40:32.730

Okay. That's a very special thing about Denmark.

00:40:32.730 00:40:33.480

Yes.

00:40:33.480 00:40:35.190

The Germans conquered.

00:40:35.190 00:40:36.365

They needed us.

00:40:36.365 00:40:36.710

Okay.

00:40:36.710 00:40:37.610

For the butter and cheese.

00:40:37.610 00:40:39.135

We'll talk about it in a minute.

00:40:39.135 00:40:41.470

The Germans conquered other countries.

00:40:41.470 00:40:42.035

Yes.

00:40:42.035 00:40:44.290

And then after Denmark and.

00:40:44.290 00:40:47.150

Norway they conquered Belgium and Holland

00:40:47.150 00:40:47.439

Yes.

00:40:47.439 00:40:54.250

And in there they were persecuting the Jews until they sent them to the camps.

00:40:54.250 00:40:58.185

In Denmark. it was a totally different situation. Very unique-

00:40:58.185 00:40:58.340

Yes.

00:40:58.340 00:41:00.140

Because there was a kind of an agreement-

00:41:00.140 00:41:00.900

Yes.

00:41:00.900 00:41:03.570

Between the Danish government.

00:41:03.570 00:41:03.855

Yes.

00:41:03.855 00:41:07.535

And the Germans that they don't touch the Jews.

00:41:07.535 00:41:10.410

That the Danes protected the Jews and there was a kind of

00:41:10.410 00:41:14.390

a status quo we would call it that they didn't rescue.

00:41:14.390 00:41:15.970

They had. as you said.

00:41:15.970 00:41:17.288

we know they needed Denmark

00:41:17.288 00:41:17.440

Yes.

00:41:17.440 00:41:19.079

They needed supplies.

00:41:19.079 00:41:19.255

Yes.

00:41:19.255 00:41:22.650

Food. Mainly food supplies from Denmark.

00:41:22.650 00:41:28.360

So there is no any measures taken by the Germans against the Jews?

00:41:28.360 00:41:31.570

You don't feel anything? There's not a curfew?

00:41:31.570 00:41:35.570

Nothing for the Jews. We had nothing.

00:41:35.570 00:41:37.000

Your life goes on as usual?

00:41:37.000 00:41:37.855

As usual.

00:41:37.855 00:41:39.495

You can go to school?

00:41:39.495 00:41:39.980

Yes.

00:41:39.980 00:41:43.450

The Jewish school still is-

00:41:43.450 00:41:44.020

Yes.

00:41:44.020 00:41:46.520

You can go to synagogue?

00:41:46.520 00:41:46.770

Yes.

00:41:46.770 00:41:48.290

You can work.

00:41:48.290 00:41:50.270

There's no limitations.

00:41:50.270 00:41:50.670

Yes.

00:41:50.670 00:41:55.130

You weren't even put with the Jewish star. Nothing is-

00:41:55.130 00:41:55.390

Nothing.

00:41:55.390 00:41:56.655

You're just like the Danes.

00:41:56.655 00:41:57.025

Yes.

00:41:57.025 00:42:02.565

Right? Besides that incidents when they took your father.

00:42:02.565 00:42:04.070

were there other incidents?

00:42:04.070 00:42:06.180

Yeah. like there there was few attacks.

00:42:06.180 00:42:08.570

Were you afraid of the Germans?

00:42:08.570 00:42:09.700

I don't think so.

00:42:09.700 00:42:13.960

When you saw as a kid a German soldier in the street.

00:42:13.960 00:42:17.020

did it impress you or were you frightened for him?

00:42:17.020 00:42:20.878

Because sometimes we hear from some kids that they were impressed by the Germans.

00:42:20.878 00:42:22.385

No.

00:42:22.385 00:42:24.450

Were you frightened of them?

00:42:24.450 00:42:26.970

I was not. no.

00:42:26.970 00:42:27.540

You weren't?

00:42:27.540 00:42:27.990

No.

00:42:27.990 00:42:31.745

Nothing? Okay. So life went on as usual.

00:42:31.745 00:42:35.350

but let's talk about what's going on in the world.

00:42:35.350 00:42:36.910

Germany. as I said.

00:42:36.910 00:42:38.400

conquered already a few counts.

00:42:38.400 00:42:40.810

A world war is going on.

00:42:40.810 00:42:43.855

'41 begins the war.

00:42:43.855 00:42:48.030

middle of '41 begins the war between Germany and the Russians.

00:42:48.030 00:42:48.285

Yeah.

00:42:48.285 00:42:54.175

Okay? Forty-two. we have fights in North Africa. okay?

00:42:54.175 00:42:57.030

Do you have still the radio.

00:42:57.030 00:42:58.250

you still hear the news.

00:42:58.250 00:42:59.965

do you know what's going on in this war?

00:42:59.965 00:43:03.960

They had it. but it wasn't.

00:43:03.960 00:43:05.130

Were your parents aware?

00:43:05.130 00:43:05.580

I wasn't.

00:43:05.580 00:43:08.205

You were a kid? You're with the girls?

00:43:08.205 00:43:08.730

That's all.

00:43:08.730 00:43:12.030

You were [inaudible] with the foot. with the soccer?

00:43:12.030 00:43:14.520

To make homework and that's all.

00:43:14.520 00:43:17.570

Right. But at home. they didn't talk about what was going on in the war?

00:43:17.570 00:43:18.175

No.

00:43:18.175 00:43:19.780

You don't remember?

00:43:19.780 00:43:20.475

I don't.

00:43:20.475 00:43:22.790

You think they were aware of what was going on?

00:43:22.790 00:43:25.890

I'm sure the parents are aware of it but not us.

00:43:25.890 00:43:28.030

But they felt safe?

00:43:28.030 00:43:28.535

Yeah.

00:43:28.535 00:43:34.700

Okay. The reason I'm asking is because by '43.

00:43:34.700 00:43:39.625

most of the Jews were already in Europe rounded in ghettos.

00:43:39.625 00:43:41.500

There were concentration camps.

00:43:41.500 00:43:41.650

Yeah. I know.

00:43:41.650 00:43:43.620

They were in extermination camps.

00:43:43.620 00:43:43.900

Yeah.

00:43:43.900 00:43:48.815

Auschwitz. Treblinka. Majdanek. all of these were working full blow.

00:43:48.815 00:43:52.140

You had gas chambers.

00:43:52.800 00:43:56.730

Did you hear anything that they're killing the Jews in Europe?

00:43:56.730 00:43:59.970

Or are there any rumors that we're only talking about it?

00:43:59.970 00:44:01.940

There must have been. but I don't recall.

00:44:01.940 00:44:08.640

Okay. I talked about Jewish immigrants coming to Denmark.

00:44:08.640 00:44:08.740

Yeah.

00:44:08.740 00:44:16.355

There was a special group of immigrants that were Zionists use Hasbara. okay?

00:44:16.355 00:44:20.760

Or. Zionist Hasbara in Danish agricultural farms.

00:44:20.760 00:44:22.695

Yeah. I know. But they weren't interested.

00:44:22.695 00:44:25.860

After. but were still there in Denmark during the war.

00:44:25.860 00:44:27.250

They were.

00:44:27.350 00:44:31.035

They were from the Hahalutz. okay?

00:44:31.035 00:44:33.360

Did your family host them?

00:44:33.360 00:44:35.300

Did the youngsters came to your home?

00:44:35.300 00:44:35.860

I don't think.

00:44:35.860 00:44:37.830

Or your father had any contact with the-?

00:44:37.830 00:44:38.510

I don't think so.

00:44:38.510 00:44:39.860

These are people of a Halutz. [inaudible].

00:44:39.860 00:44:40.980

I know.

00:44:40.980 00:44:43.435

They were in Denmark.

00:44:43.435 00:44:48.270

And Shabbos. the Melfius.

00:44:48.270 00:44:48.540

Yeah?

00:44:48.540 00:44:50.735

The two Melfius when they were young.

00:44:50.735 00:44:55.725

they got us together and I think they like the Shabbos.

00:44:55.725 00:44:59.910

So they spoke about it.

00:45:00.540 00:45:03.375

my mind was not in this.

00:45:03.375 00:45:07.085

Okay. There was also a Nazi Danish.

00:45:07.085 00:45:09.970

local Danish Nazi party.

00:45:09.970 00:45:10.560

Yeah.

00:45:10.560 00:45:11.820

In Denmark.

00:45:11.820 00:45:14.265

In fact. there was an office near where we lived.

00:45:14.265 00:45:15.335

Did you feel anything?

00:45:15.335 00:45:18.890

Did they do anything against you? What would they do?

00:45:18.890 00:45:25.465

Were they marching or did they have any activities against the Jews?

00:45:25.465 00:45:28.555

There were but nothing that I really saw.

00:45:28.555 00:45:29.965

You didn't encounter?

00:45:29.965 00:45:30.970

No. no.

00:45:30.970 00:45:35.670

No one hit you or beat you or anything of that sort?

00:45:35.670 00:45:40.270

Okay. So until 1943.

00:45:40.270 00:45:42.825

everything is more or less.

00:45:42.825 00:45:49.885

And do you recall of anyone thought of leaving Denmark before '43?

00:45:49.885 00:45:51.960

Oh. that. I wouldn't know either.

00:45:51.960 00:45:54.190

And either. okay.

00:45:54.830 00:45:58.390

So before we talk about '43.

00:45:58.390 00:46:01.830

we have to talk about the Danish underground.

00:46:01.830 00:46:03.760

I think there was.

00:46:03.760 00:46:06.150

Of course. there was a big Danish underground.

00:46:06.150 00:46:07.520

They were very active.

00:46:07.520 00:46:11.570

Do you know. you didn't know then probably.

00:46:11.570 00:46:12.620

but do you know today?

00:46:12.620 00:46:17.860

Did you have any friends or relatives of your family that were part of the underground?

00:46:17.860 00:46:18.470

Family. no.

00:46:18.470 00:46:20.200

That took part in the underground?

00:46:20.200 00:46:22.300

Friends. not family.

00:46:22.300 00:46:25.905

But you know it now or you know it also as a kid?

00:46:25.905 00:46:29.480

Did you know about the underground as a kid? Let's see.

00:46:29.480 00:46:31.490

By '43. how old were you?

00:46:31.490 00:46:33.170

You were ready 15. right?

00:46:33.170 00:46:33.970

Already 15. yeah.

00:46:33.970 00:46:35.340

Did you know anything about the underground?

00:46:35.340 00:46:37.080

I told you. I wasn't developed at-

00:46:37.080 00:46:39.225

You weren't involved. I understand.

00:46:39.225 00:46:40.125

Not involved.

00:46:40.125 00:46:41.122

You weren't aware.

00:46:41.122 00:46:41.250

Yeah.

00:46:41.250 00:46:42.540

You weren't aware of the things.

00:46:42.540 00:46:45.570

but do you remember people talking about the underworld?

00:46:45.570 00:46:49.335

No. Now. I know.

00:46:49.335 00:46:52.140

I would say. yeah. But I'm not sure then.

00:46:52.140 00:46:53.710

That you were aware of it?

00:46:53.710 00:46:53.930

Yeah.

00:46:53.930 00:46:58.235

Of their activities? Okay. The beginning of '43.

00:46:58.235 00:47:01.590

there was the famous battle in Stalingrad.

00:47:01.590 00:47:02.215

Yeah.

00:47:02.215 00:47:05.490

It's a major battle because it's also one of

00:47:05.490 00:47:08.330

the most important turning point in

00:47:08.330 00:47:12.135

the war because the Germans are beginning to withdraw.

00:47:12.135 00:47:12.540

Yeah.

00:47:12.540 00:47:15.370

And the Russians are advancing.

00:47:15.370 00:47:18.920

and it gave in certain places.

00:47:20.330 00:47:22.510

some kind of optimism.

00:47:22.510 00:47:26.189

A little because it was in Denmark.

00:47:26.189 00:47:31.920

it gave the Danish underground also a lot of power.

00:47:31.920 00:47:35.020

They were becoming much more active.

00:47:35.020 00:47:40.650

And it annoyed the Germans very much.

00:47:40.650 00:47:41.575

I know. That I recall. yeah.

00:47:41.575 00:47:43.200

And that's why the Germans then.

00:47:43.200 00:47:45.800

when they were starting to withdraw and feeling.

00:47:45.800 00:47:49.060

they decide to deal with the Jews all of a sudden.

00:47:49.060 00:47:52.450

How did you hear about the change?

00:47:52.450 00:47:55.990

There was a plan to take the Jews.

00:47:55.990 00:47:58.510

And what do you remember?

00:47:58.510 00:48:00.560

How did you learn about this plan?

00:48:00.560 00:48:03.220

What happened once they decide that they're going to

00:48:03.220 00:48:06.420

gather the Jews and send them as well?

00:48:06.420 00:48:10.500

First of all. after school.

00:48:10.500 00:48:16.535

I went to this business college of the Brock's.

00:48:16.535 00:48:19.185

They're still around today.

00:48:19.185 00:48:21.575

It's a Danish non-Jewish?

00:48:21.575 00:48:22.330

Non-Jewish.

00:48:22.330 00:48:24.160

The general school of-

00:48:24.160 00:48:25.264

Yeah. For business college.

00:48:25.264 00:48:25.588

For business?

00:48:25.588 00:48:28.430

[inaudible]

00:48:28.430 00:48:29.880

What year did you go there?

00:48:29.880 00:48:32.255

During the war already you were studying there?

00:48:32.255 00:48:34.065

No. before '43.

00:48:34.065 00:48:34.985

Yeah.

00:48:34.985 00:48:37.190

Fort-two. that is.

00:48:37.190 00:48:41.775

So. I was standing in one of the offices.

00:48:41.775 00:48:44.910

across the street was a big forum.

00:48:44.910 00:48:49.780

Forum is a big house that the youth.

00:48:49.780 00:48:56.935

[inaudible] and you know that they have things like next to the business.

00:48:56.935 00:49:02.490

the bus station across the street and a big-

00:49:02.490 00:49:03.540

Big analma?

00:49:03.540 00:49:04.980

Big analma. such a place.

00:49:04.980 00:49:05.310

Yeah. All right.

00:49:05.310 00:49:08.100

So. I was standing in the office.

00:49:08.100 00:49:10.945

all of a sudden. we hear. bang!

00:49:10.945 00:49:14.335

And like the windows were going like this.

00:49:14.335 00:49:15.090

They were bombing?

00:49:15.090 00:49:16.600

They blew up.

00:49:16.600 00:49:17.815

It was the underground.

00:49:17.815 00:49:18.790

The underground blew up?

00:49:18.790 00:49:18.940

Yeah.

00:49:18.940 00:49:19.360

Okay.

00:49:19.360 00:49:20.650

And so. that's all I know.

00:49:20.650 00:49:27.090

But that. I've seen it by myself.

00:49:27.090 00:49:31.890

And what happened?

00:49:31.890 00:49:35.070

No. You got scared.

00:49:35.070 00:49:37.485

But that's the only thing basically.

00:49:37.485 00:49:40.785

And then. it was close through that October anyway.

00:49:40.785 00:49:43.220

Okay. So. let's talk about what happened in October.

00:49:43.220 00:49:43.760

You have to unwind.

00:49:43.760 00:49:44.555

As I said-

00:49:44.555 00:49:46.205

Oh. yeah. So the night.

00:49:46.205 00:49:48.150

they wanted to take everybody.

00:49:48.150 00:49:49.885

They had all their all addresses.

00:49:49.885 00:49:53.115

So. they came to the house in a big truck.

00:49:53.115 00:49:54.055

The Germans?

00:49:54.055 00:49:57.825

Yeah. the Germans. and they wanted to take us.

00:49:57.825 00:50:00.890

So my father looked out the window.

00:50:00.890 00:50:02.785

he told us to come to the bedroom.

00:50:02.785 00:50:06.680

and we hid. and they started knocking like crazy.

00:50:06.680 00:50:08.405

Where did you hide?

00:50:08.405 00:50:12.435

I know. in the apartment. in the bedroom.

00:50:12.435 00:50:14.170

You're were just enclosed in the bedroom?

00:50:14.170 00:50:14.385

Yeah.

00:50:14.385 00:50:15.520

Not in an attic?

00:50:15.520 00:50:15.965

No. no.

00:50:15.965 00:50:17.065

Or basement?

00:50:17.065 00:50:17.500

No.

00:50:17.500 00:50:18.190

Okay.

00:50:18.190 00:50:20.215

So we hid there.

00:50:20.215 00:50:22.760

and then and were very quiet.

00:50:22.760 00:50:28.190

We looked till eventually.

00:50:28.190 00:50:31.605

they left because their first night.

00:50:31.605 00:50:35.580

So. after that. my father asked me to go down.

00:50:35.580 00:50:39.845

You can go through the cellar and come to the other corner.

00:50:39.845 00:50:42.450

So I did that. see everything is clear.

00:50:42.450 00:50:45.805

and then we took off to the country.

00:50:45.805 00:50:52.815

Okay. Let me just explain one thing to people who will listen to the testimony.

00:50:52.815 00:50:55.665

We know today. I don't know if you are aware.

00:50:55.665 00:50:59.570

your father must have been aware because he was part of the community.

00:50:59.570 00:51:01.820

The plan was to take the Jews.

00:51:01.820 00:51:04.510

There was a military naval attache.

00:51:04.510 00:51:06.325

German. right?

00:51:06.325 00:51:07.710

Djokovitz. right?

00:51:07.710 00:51:08.690

So. he gave out.

00:51:08.690 00:51:11.480

Right. He gave the information to

00:51:11.480 00:51:16.430

the Danish head of socialist party who warned the Jews. the Jewish community.

00:51:16.430 00:51:20.030

So the Jewish community knew in advance.

00:51:20.030 00:51:20.385

Yeah.

00:51:20.385 00:51:23.285

Perhaps a few days before that this was the plan.

00:51:23.285 00:51:29.535

And then. I think the whole of Denmark got themselves to help the Jews to escape.

00:51:29.535 00:51:29.860

Yeah.

00:51:29.860 00:51:34.920

So. this is like the Jewish community. other Danish.

00:51:34.920 00:51:40.120

non-Jewish communities are helping the Jews to hide.

00:51:40.120 00:51:42.500

to escape. to get around.

00:51:42.500 00:51:43.400

Yeah. okay.

00:51:43.400 00:51:45.860

Did you know. as a teenager.

00:51:45.860 00:51:51.195

did you know about Djokovitz and the fact that he warned the Jews. the rabbi?

00:51:51.195 00:51:52.265

Then. I didn't know.

00:51:52.265 00:51:57.180

Today. you know it? But your father must have known it.

00:51:57.180 00:51:57.540

Yeah.

00:51:57.540 00:51:59.770

Because the chief rabbi gathered all-

00:51:59.770 00:52:01.530

The rabbis told us not to come to shore.

00:52:01.530 00:52:04.650

Right. The rabbi instructed all the Jews what was going on?

00:52:04.650 00:52:05.155

Yeah. Don't come to shore.

00:52:05.155 00:52:06.995

Okay. So the family.

00:52:06.995 00:52:08.850

this is your mother.

00:52:08.850 00:52:10.660

your father and four boys.

00:52:10.660 00:52:11.420

Yeah.

00:52:11.420 00:52:15.130

You all escaped through the cellar from the house?

00:52:15.130 00:52:16.925

At that night. no.

00:52:16.925 00:52:20.590

In the morning. after I went to check out.

00:52:20.590 00:52:21.830

Yeah.

00:52:22.280 00:52:26.630

I didn't understand how the Germans were looking for you.

00:52:26.630 00:52:29.305

and you were locked in and they didn't break in?

00:52:29.305 00:52:31.565

The first night they didn't do that.

00:52:31.565 00:52:32.470

They were just.

00:52:32.470 00:52:33.750

The next night they would have done it.

00:52:33.750 00:52:34.940

They would have broke in?

00:52:34.940 00:52:35.330

Yeah.

00:52:35.330 00:52:36.690

Okay. So you managed.

00:52:36.690 00:52:37.930

They asked. "Where are the Goldbergers?"

00:52:37.930 00:52:40.600

They told them I'm in the country or something like that.

00:52:40.600 00:52:41.755

So they didn't break in?

00:52:41.755 00:52:42.080

Yeah.

00:52:42.080 00:52:45.990

So. you had a chance that night after that to escape?

00:52:45.990 00:52:46.845

Yeah. that's what happened.

00:52:46.845 00:52:48.610

Okay. So how did you escape?

00:52:48.610 00:52:50.260

By foot. you took a car.

00:52:50.260 00:52:51.690

someone came to take you?

00:52:51.690 00:52:53.100

Even that. I don't remember.

00:52:53.100 00:52:55.400

We went to the country. usually.

00:52:55.400 00:52:58.870

there's the train that goes wherever we went.

00:52:58.870 00:53:00.150

You have mentioned that there were

00:53:00.150 00:53:05.810

Danish acquaintances of your father who helped you. who were they?

00:53:05.810 00:53:07.440

Actually. there's a Gala-

00:53:07.440 00:53:08.190

Yeah.

00:53:08.190 00:53:13.660

That I stayed. I think the two of us stayed by some Gala in the country.

00:53:13.660 00:53:14.545

Gala. you mean. priests?

00:53:14.545 00:53:15.415

A priest.

00:53:15.415 00:53:16.570

A Christian priest.

00:53:16.570 00:53:17.365

Zelbazakh. Yeah.

00:53:17.365 00:53:18.745

The Zelbazakh. Yeah.

00:53:18.745 00:53:21.740

Okay. So your father knew them?

00:53:23.460 00:53:27.320

Yeah. He must have told them to take us in for a few days.

00:53:27.320 00:53:30.270

You hid there in the country side.

00:53:30.270 00:53:30.480

Yeah.

00:53:30.480 00:53:32.030

You remember what was it called?

00:53:32.030 00:53:33.940

It was a village. is a farm?

00:53:33.940 00:53:36.450

No. it's in the country. a country house.

00:53:36.450 00:53:37.500

But I don't remember.

00:53:37.500 00:53:39.630

When you were there. you hid actually?

00:53:39.630 00:53:41.745

You didn't go out? You were hiding?

00:53:41.745 00:53:43.690

That. I don't remember either.

00:53:43.690 00:53:46.005

I remember eating something.

00:53:46.005 00:53:47.940

Do you remember what you-?

00:53:47.940 00:53:49.800

I forgot how many days we were there.

00:53:49.800 00:53:50.885

Yeah. Did you?

00:53:50.885 00:53:54.355

Later on. it became you know the-

00:53:54.355 00:53:56.390

You think he paid them?

00:53:56.390 00:53:58.020

Or they did it voluntarily?

00:53:58.020 00:54:01.585

No. I don't think. In fact. my father didn't have money for the fisherman.

00:54:01.585 00:54:02.690

That's what I want to ask.

00:54:02.690 00:54:05.700

I think somebody paid for him. Friends of his.

00:54:05.700 00:54:07.675

When you left your home.

00:54:07.675 00:54:10.475

you just locked the door behind you?

00:54:10.475 00:54:11.850

Did you take things with you?

00:54:11.850 00:54:16.635

I think that the maidress took over the pay apartment.

00:54:16.635 00:54:19.430

Did you take anything from home?

00:54:19.430 00:54:21.960

My mother took certain thing.

00:54:21.960 00:54:23.985

I don't think I'd take anything.

00:54:23.985 00:54:25.750

My mother took certain thing.

00:54:25.750 00:54:27.565

Clothes and things like that?

00:54:27.565 00:54:29.450

Very little. Very little.

00:54:29.450 00:54:30.550

Because we had to walk into the border.

00:54:30.550 00:54:32.465

Did you understand?

00:54:32.465 00:54:34.660

For the boat was outside. we didn't come over in.

00:54:34.660 00:54:38.700

Okay. But when you left home. you fled actually?

00:54:38.700 00:54:39.580

Yeah.

00:54:39.580 00:54:43.450

Can you remember what you felt. were you afraid?

00:54:43.450 00:54:47.420

Did you feel this as a matter of life or death?

00:54:47.420 00:54:47.765

I must have been.

00:54:47.765 00:54:48.970

You felt that?

00:54:48.970 00:54:50.015

I think so.

00:54:50.015 00:54:52.270

Can you recall what was the feeling?

00:54:52.270 00:54:53.635

Directly. no.

00:54:53.635 00:54:54.220

No. Okay.

00:54:54.220 00:54:55.870

But I must have been scared.

00:54:55.870 00:54:57.900

but I did certain things.

00:54:57.900 00:55:03.595

Yeah. Okay. So you stay in the village a few days and then someone organizes.

00:55:03.595 00:55:10.050

But that took few days also because later on they stopped looking I believe.

00:55:10.850 00:55:12.930

Eventually-

00:55:12.930 00:55:13.980

You get on the boat.

00:55:13.980 00:55:14.490

We got into a boat.

00:55:14.490 00:55:15.630

On the fishermen.

00:55:15.630 00:55:16.055

Yeah.

00:55:16.055 00:55:17.615

How was this done. at night?

00:55:17.615 00:55:18.945

Well. it was at night.

00:55:18.945 00:55:19.560

Okay.

00:55:19.560 00:55:21.930

It was near the airport.

00:55:21.930 00:55:27.780

We were hiding and being in the bushes until somebody gave us an okay.

00:55:27.780 00:55:32.280

they will the cross the street and go this way towards the boat.

00:55:32.280 00:55:35.550

In the boat. it was only your family or other families?

00:55:35.550 00:55:37.500

I just learned that Zilver.

00:55:37.500 00:55:39.920

who lives where you were yesterday.

00:55:39.920 00:55:42.095

he was on that boat.

00:55:42.095 00:55:42.760

Also.

00:55:42.760 00:55:43.880

I wrote him an email.

00:55:43.880 00:55:45.480

he never answered me.

00:55:45.480 00:55:47.805

I don't recall seeing him.

00:55:47.805 00:55:49.185

There were a few families.

00:55:49.185 00:55:50.300

Jewish families on the boat?

00:55:50.300 00:55:51.185

It must have been. Yeah.

00:55:51.185 00:55:53.780

How many of the fishermen. 1. 2?

00:55:53.780 00:55:56.485

Do you remember the fisherman who were taking you?

00:55:56.485 00:55:58.570

The guy? No. I don't remember.

00:55:58.570 00:56:00.095

Okay. So this is at night.

00:56:00.095 00:56:03.475

It was a small boat. they're downstairs.

00:56:03.475 00:56:05.490

And then. boom. boom boom. boom. boom. boom.

00:56:05.490 00:56:08.490

and you have to show that I'm fishing.

00:56:08.490 00:56:09.690

So how long?

00:56:09.690 00:56:12.960

There was the German plane on top there. but think we're fishing.

00:56:12.960 00:56:16.370

Okay. So how long did you sail?

00:56:16.370 00:56:19.340

Roughly. I don't recall that either.

00:56:19.340 00:56:21.550

but it must have been a couple of hours.

00:56:21.550 00:56:24.300

There's places we go with less.

00:56:24.300 00:56:25.170

Rough?

00:56:25.170 00:56:26.160

No. Where it's.

00:56:26.160 00:56:27.210

Where you can get closer to the shore.

00:56:27.210 00:56:28.455

Closer. yeah.

00:56:28.455 00:56:29.930

But the closer you are.

00:56:29.930 00:56:32.890

the more that there are more Germans there. So you try to go little further.

00:56:32.890 00:56:35.700

The water was rough those days?

00:56:35.700 00:56:41.080

Because I think maybe.

00:56:41.080 00:56:43.850

It wasn't as that like when I came to America.

00:56:43.850 00:56:46.820

Yeah. Because one or two or three people did drown.

00:56:46.820 00:56:49.970

We do know of very few people that did drown.

00:56:49.970 00:56:52.600

that the boat turned over or things like that.

00:56:52.600 00:56:54.100

Not that night.

00:56:54.100 00:56:56.635

Most of the Jews were safe.

00:56:56.635 00:56:58.120

So. what do you remember.

00:56:58.120 00:57:00.640

where did you land?

00:57:00.640 00:57:04.840

I don't even remember where I landed. I don't really recall.

00:57:04.840 00:57:07.210

You don't remember where you landed. Okay.

00:57:07.210 00:57:09.295

But we've lived in Goteborg.

00:57:09.295 00:57:10.840

Okay. So when you landed.

00:57:10.840 00:57:12.220

It must have been close to that.

00:57:12.220 00:57:14.435

It was already in the morning?

00:57:14.435 00:57:17.105

Not too early morning.

00:57:17.105 00:57:20.930

Yeah. Do you your member who helps you. who receives you?

00:57:20.930 00:57:23.300

Did you go to a camp?

00:57:23.300 00:57:30.160

Let's explain.

00:57:30.160 00:57:35.030

Sweden was neutral and Sweden was willing to accept the refugees.

00:57:35.030 00:57:38.550

all that escaped which is you are lucky because you

00:57:38.550 00:57:42.470

couldn't escape to many other countries in those days.

00:57:42.470 00:57:44.520

I see these guys today.

00:57:44.520 00:57:47.805

those Muslims. I can't understand them.

00:57:47.805 00:57:50.410

They come to a strange country.

00:57:50.410 00:57:54.950

you are guest and you get out and they tell you get out.

00:57:54.950 00:57:56.585

Let's go back to Europe.

00:57:56.585 00:57:57.880

I can't believe this.

00:57:57.880 00:58:02.010

Let's go back to your memories as a kid. as a refugee.

00:58:02.010 00:58:05.175

Do you remember. were you in a camp or anything?

00:58:05.175 00:58:06.075

No. I don't remember that.

00:58:06.075 00:58:10.230

Because they did set a camp in the beginning for

00:58:10.230 00:58:15.840

a Jewish refugees in Malmo and places like that.

00:58:15.840 00:58:20.685

So you came to Goteborg. and who?

00:58:20.685 00:58:22.950

My father. they arranged all these things.

00:58:22.950 00:58:25.170

I know he got a job as a Khazn and-

00:58:25.170 00:58:28.770

In Goteborg?

00:58:28.770 00:58:30.135

He got an apartment.

00:58:30.135 00:58:30.705

Okay.

00:58:30.705 00:58:31.600

Normal apartment. That's all I remember.

00:58:31.600 00:58:36.280

Okay. So the Jewish community. the Swede-

00:58:36.280 00:58:37.300

Without them. I wouldn't know.

00:58:37.300 00:58:41.580

The Swedes. everyone is helping the Jewish refugees.

00:58:41.580 00:58:44.620

and your father has an important profession.

00:58:44.620 00:58:47.435

he's a khazan so he got work as a khazan.

00:58:47.435 00:58:50.010

What about you. you go to school there?

00:58:50.010 00:58:54.150

He made me work.

00:58:54.150 00:58:56.925

He got me a job as a farrier.

00:58:56.925 00:59:01.590

With Jews?

00:59:01.590 00:59:02.865

I don't think they were Jews.

00:59:02.865 00:59:04.290

I don't remember.

00:59:04.290 00:59:05.950

So you don't go to school anymore?

00:59:05.950 00:59:06.275

No.

00:59:06.275 00:59:07.920

You go to work.

00:59:07.920 00:59:09.675

My brothers went to school.

00:59:09.675 00:59:11.000

It was a Swedish school?

00:59:11.000 00:59:12.490

Harvey Ruben went to school.

00:59:12.490 00:59:16.035

It was a Swedish school or it was a special Danish for the refugees?

00:59:16.035 00:59:16.495

I think-

00:59:16.495 00:59:21.410

Because I think they established a Danish special school for some of you.

00:59:21.410 00:59:23.060

Maybe it was that I'm not sure.

00:59:23.060 00:59:26.955

Okay. So you went to work with the farrier?

00:59:26.955 00:59:27.765

Yeah.

00:59:27.765 00:59:30.190

The whole time you worked there till you left?

00:59:30.190 00:59:31.935

I think so.

00:59:31.935 00:59:34.340

Okay. The Swedish people.

00:59:34.340 00:59:37.900

I mean. first of all the Jewish community there.

00:59:37.900 00:59:39.585

you became part of it?

00:59:39.585 00:59:42.085

You went to shul there and they were.

00:59:42.085 00:59:43.590

how did they treat you?

00:59:43.590 00:59:45.660

No problem for us.

00:59:45.660 00:59:47.460

You didn't feel any difference.

00:59:47.460 00:59:50.180

You had friends from the Jewish community there. you?

00:59:50.180 00:59:55.745

I had certain friends.

00:59:55.745 00:59:59.860

What about the non-Jews. the Swede?

00:59:59.860 01:00:02.290

How did they treat all these.

01:00:02.290 01:00:03.535

They never had any problems.

01:00:03.535 01:00:04.360

No problems?

01:00:04.360 01:00:05.640

I had no problems.

01:00:05.640 01:00:08.985

No antisemitism either in Sweden?

01:00:08.985 01:00:13.615

So. you could live quite relatively comfortable.

01:00:13.615 01:00:17.980

normal life even as refugees under these circumstances?

01:00:17.980 01:00:19.040

Because we behaved.

01:00:19.040 01:00:23.470

Yeah. Okay. Because you were lucky also. Yeah.

01:00:23.470 01:00:24.760

If I had been a Muslim.

01:00:24.760 01:00:26.895

I would have been a Danish citizen.

01:00:26.895 01:00:28.930

I was not even a citizen then.

01:00:28.930 01:00:31.390

Your parents didn't have a Danish citizen.

01:00:31.390 01:00:34.015

[inaudible] You got to be there 15 years or something.

01:00:34.015 01:00:34.580

Yeah.

01:00:34.580 01:00:35.760

But if you're Muslim.

01:00:35.760 01:00:37.790

you get it after four or five years. Nuts.

01:00:37.790 01:00:40.880

Okay. So let's get back to Sweden.

01:00:40.880 01:00:42.885

What else do you remember during those?

01:00:42.885 01:00:45.165

You were there a year and a half. two years.

01:00:45.165 01:00:47.505

Yeah. Almost two.

01:00:47.505 01:00:51.010

The war ended May.

01:00:51.010 01:00:52.665

'45. so until then.

01:00:52.665 01:00:54.175

Do you remember anything else?

01:00:54.175 01:00:56.370

I don't remember how I came back. That's strange.

01:00:56.370 01:01:03.010

Okay. I want to ask you another question about the Swedish. about the Swede.

01:01:04.240 01:01:10.250

During. I think it was on '44. first of all.

01:01:10.250 01:01:12.154

did you know about Raoul Wallenberg.

01:01:12.154 01:01:15.550

who went to Hungary and helped save the Jews.

01:01:15.550 01:01:16.730

I don't know then but now I know. for years I know.

01:01:16.730 01:01:18.925

Now. you know. They didn't talk about him then?

01:01:18.925 01:01:22.880

About Raoul Wallenberg. who went to Hungary to save Jews.

01:01:22.880 01:01:25.125

Not then. That means that I don't know.

01:01:25.125 01:01:28.365

He disappeared then with Russian.

01:01:28.365 01:01:30.700

My mind was only on girls. I can't help it.

01:01:30.700 01:01:34.070

The Swedish girls?

01:01:34.070 01:01:35.760

I'm sick.

01:01:35.760 01:01:39.785

Okay. Did you go to in Sweden?

01:01:39.785 01:01:42.705

Was there a Yeshiva also there in Goteborg?

01:01:42.705 01:01:44.050

Did you go to-?

01:01:44.050 01:01:45.160

Real Yeshiva. no.

01:01:45.160 01:01:48.170

No. Jewish studies or anything of that sort?

01:01:48.170 01:01:52.445

Okay. The other thing I was going to ask you was about Bernadotte.

01:01:52.445 01:01:58.905

Prince Bernadotte. who was also in mission of the Swedish Red Cross.

01:01:58.905 01:02:03.830

He had a deal with Himmler to get some prisoners out of Ravensbruck.

01:02:03.830 01:02:04.920

Where they ride buses and something.

01:02:04.920 01:02:08.650

Ride buses. Exactly. Exactly. You know about it today.

01:02:08.650 01:02:09.480

Yeah.

01:02:09.480 01:02:11.440

But you weren't aware of it then.

01:02:11.440 01:02:19.055

There were some deal with Himmler where they would get some mainly women.

01:02:19.055 01:02:22.200

prisoners. Jews. and mainly from Ravensbruck not only.

01:02:22.200 01:02:26.350

but who they've managed to bring but you didn't.

01:02:26.350 01:02:30.105

Mrs. Jakobsen [inaudible] She had a school for girls.

01:02:30.105 01:02:33.090

Who came from the camps. they came from-

01:02:33.090 01:02:35.745

Well. look. Jakobsen herself.

01:02:35.745 01:02:38.055

I don't think she was.

01:02:38.055 01:02:39.340

I don't know.

01:02:39.340 01:02:43.750

But there were a Jewish survivors.

01:02:43.750 01:02:46.580

Holocaust survivors. who came to Sweden a

01:02:46.580 01:02:49.760

lot after the war as well. but you weren't there.

01:02:49.760 01:02:51.725

But even before the war ended.

01:02:51.725 01:02:53.390

they were in that '44.

01:02:53.390 01:02:54.915

When you are in Sweden.

01:02:54.915 01:02:57.210

you are more aware of what's going on in

01:02:57.210 01:03:00.070

this war after you're a refugee. You weren't aware?

01:03:00.070 01:03:00.875

No. I don't think so.

01:03:00.875 01:03:04.935

Because by 1944. the Russians were really advancing.

01:03:04.935 01:03:06.860

The Allies were advancing.

01:03:06.860 01:03:09.360

In '44. we have June. '44.

01:03:09.360 01:03:11.805

At that time. I don't think I knew all of these things.

01:03:11.805 01:03:13.830

D-Day. they were already in.

01:03:13.830 01:03:16.400

I wasn't into politics. I wasn't into anything.

01:03:16.400 01:03:23.810

Okay. So. do you remember hearing about the war ending in May. '45?

01:03:23.810 01:03:27.375

I must have. but today I can't remember.

01:03:27.375 01:03:30.280

They didn't celebrate?

01:03:30.530 01:03:32.730

I don't remember that.

01:03:32.730 01:03:34.460

No celebrations or?

01:03:34.460 01:03:39.130

Because a lot of places they went out celebrating the victory.

01:03:39.130 01:03:41.725

the defeat of the Nazis.

01:03:41.725 01:03:42.910

I don't know.

01:03:42.910 01:03:48.085

You don't remember any celebrations in Goteborg when the war ended?

01:03:48.085 01:03:48.710

I can't remember.

01:03:48.710 01:03:53.310

When people were celebrating the fact that they are free.

01:03:53.310 01:03:54.170

Ask Leo.

01:03:54.170 01:03:59.890

Okay.

01:04:08.670 01:04:14.980

So. the war as we said has ended. 1945.

01:04:14.980 01:04:19.565

You immediately returned to Kobenhavn after the war?

01:04:19.565 01:04:22.910

Those things I don't even remember but I must have.

01:04:22.910 01:04:24.230

Your whole family?

01:04:24.230 01:04:25.835

I don't even know how.

01:04:25.835 01:04:28.490

You don't remember coming back to Kobenhavn?

01:04:28.490 01:04:28.875

No.

01:04:28.875 01:04:31.575

You came to the same apartment.

01:04:31.575 01:04:32.290

Yeah.

01:04:32.290 01:04:33.570

Or they had to look for a new apartment?

01:04:33.570 01:04:35.095

No. I have the same apartment.

01:04:35.095 01:04:35.760

Okay.

01:04:35.760 01:04:39.520

I know we had to probably get in the back.

01:04:39.520 01:04:40.880

Someone took it over.

01:04:40.880 01:04:43.580

They must have paid something at least.

01:04:43.580 01:04:46.550

gave her the piano or something.

01:04:46.550 01:04:47.345

Okay.

01:04:47.345 01:04:48.050

I was told.

01:04:48.050 01:04:50.510

So. you go back to Denmark.

01:04:50.510 01:04:56.350

and the Danes we have to say really it's one of

01:04:56.350 01:05:02.120

the exceptional cases where a whole nation helped save the Jews.

01:05:02.120 01:05:03.730

because it's even the police.

01:05:03.730 01:05:08.500

everyone was involved in saving and we do have to mention that not

01:05:08.500 01:05:14.940

many but a few of the Danes who were caught were sent to Theresienstadt.

01:05:14.940 01:05:19.950

We didn't mention that but did you know anybody from your relatives?

01:05:19.950 01:05:20.905

The Rabi was caught.

01:05:20.905 01:05:21.615

Who?.

01:05:21.615 01:05:24.165

The Rabi [inaudible] was caught.

01:05:24.165 01:05:24.705

Yeah.

01:05:24.705 01:05:26.490

But who else? I don't know.

01:05:26.490 01:05:29.200

You didn't have other relatives who were caught there?

01:05:29.200 01:05:29.710

No. really no.

01:05:29.710 01:05:34.610

At the time. did you know that there were Danish Jews in Theresienstadt?

01:05:34.610 01:05:37.890

Were you aware of that that those who were caught were sent?

01:05:37.890 01:05:40.425

If I was aware they were there. I don't recall.

01:05:40.425 01:05:45.795

Okay. We have to say that even those who were in Theresienstadt.

01:05:45.795 01:05:52.465

most of them survived because the Danish government even made a point.

01:05:52.465 01:05:56.525

I'm taking care of those who were in Theresienstadt which is unusual.

01:05:56.525 01:05:58.515

really very very exceptional.

01:05:58.515 01:05:58.845

Yeah.

01:05:58.845 01:06:03.455

I think the Danish people really accepted the Jews as part of them.

01:06:03.455 01:06:05.135

that's how I interpret it.

01:06:05.135 01:06:06.285

Yeah. you're right.

01:06:06.285 01:06:08.975

Because otherwise. how can you understand that?

01:06:08.975 01:06:11.295

So. when you got back.

01:06:11.295 01:06:13.300

first of all I want to ask.

01:06:13.300 01:06:14.760

you were already like 15.16.

01:06:14.760 01:06:18.835

and you said that you felt still as a kid.

01:06:18.835 01:06:21.090

You were more interested in your own life.

01:06:21.090 01:06:24.360

you weren't aware of what was going on in the war.

01:06:24.360 01:06:28.755

when did you really understand what had happened?

01:06:28.755 01:06:34.310

That there was a second world war that millions of people were killed.

01:06:34.310 01:06:37.005

that millions of Jews perished.

01:06:37.005 01:06:38.915

were murdered by the Nazis.

01:06:38.915 01:06:41.300

in gas chambers and fires?

01:06:41.300 01:06:42.910

That day I wouldn't know.

01:06:42.910 01:06:44.875

No. I was not saying day.

01:06:44.875 01:06:49.560

what I mean is when you got back to Denmark after the war.

01:06:49.560 01:06:54.020

were you are already more aware of what had happened?

01:06:55.100 01:06:59.925

I can't remember how my mind was when we went back.

01:06:59.925 01:07:04.400

Okay. Did you meet some of the survivors who came from the camps?

01:07:04.400 01:07:06.025

From the camps?

01:07:06.025 01:07:08.260

Like from Theresienstadt?

01:07:08.260 01:07:12.060

No. because it was not an immediate family anything I would know.

01:07:12.060 01:07:14.795

You don't recall meeting or talking to someone

01:07:14.795 01:07:18.340

that came back from Theresienstadt or other camps.

01:07:18.340 01:07:24.080

other Jewish refugees. I mean survivors who came to Denmark after the war?

01:07:24.080 01:07:29.950

Do you remember any Jews that survived the Holocaust in camps.

01:07:29.950 01:07:32.620

in hiding and came to Denmark?

01:07:32.620 01:07:33.760

I think it was.

01:07:33.760 01:07:40.440

because I'm among the first ones who left for America.

01:07:40.440 01:07:43.080

So. you were just like a year after you came?

01:07:43.080 01:07:43.710

Yeah.

01:07:43.710 01:07:44.655

Okay.

01:07:44.655 01:07:45.380

Closely.

01:07:45.380 01:07:49.400

Okay. That's another interesting question.

01:07:49.400 01:07:52.200

a lot of Jews after the war.

01:07:52.200 01:07:57.955

I'm talking about Europe where they were in camps. they were in hiding.

01:07:57.955 01:08:02.510

I'm talking about those who survived the Holocaust and decided that after the war.

01:08:02.510 01:08:05.160

they do not want to remain in Europe.

01:08:05.160 01:08:09.605

Some of them couldn't even go back in Poland to where they were born or lived.

01:08:09.605 01:08:12.075

and some just didn't want to go back.

01:08:12.075 01:08:16.690

A lot of them wanted to come to Palestine and it's Israel.

01:08:16.690 01:08:19.890

others wanted to emigrate to the United States.

01:08:19.890 01:08:21.420

to other countries. Australia.

01:08:21.420 01:08:23.530

South Africa. it wasn't so easy.

01:08:23.530 01:08:24.065

Yeah.

01:08:24.065 01:08:28.060

I think a lot of the Danish Jews who came back

01:08:28.060 01:08:32.190

to Denmark wanted to remain in Denmark because for them.

01:08:32.190 01:08:34.865

Denmark was a good place. they saved them.

01:08:34.865 01:08:39.870

But your family decided to leave after a year?

01:08:41.050 01:08:44.150

My father. actually when he left.

01:08:44.150 01:08:49.775

I don't think that he meant to stay.

01:08:49.775 01:08:50.615

In Denmark?

01:08:50.615 01:08:51.620

But it just happened.

01:08:51.620 01:08:55.135

Because he had a good offer. that's the reason?

01:08:55.135 01:08:56.540

That's what I see.

01:08:56.540 01:08:58.280

Okay. So he left.

01:08:58.280 01:09:00.200

the whole family left?

01:09:00.200 01:09:05.820

They'd to ran. He brought the rest over but it took maybe a year before.

01:09:05.820 01:09:07.830

Okay. So. you live in 46.

01:09:07.830 01:09:09.790

I went to Yeshiva.

01:09:09.790 01:09:10.570

Where?

01:09:10.570 01:09:12.850

Baltimore. I thought you know.

01:09:12.850 01:09:14.830

Okay. So. you go to the States?

01:09:14.830 01:09:17.215

Yeah. and my father.

01:09:17.215 01:09:18.640

He went to Montreal?

01:09:18.640 01:09:19.085

Yeah.

01:09:19.085 01:09:19.895

Okay.

01:09:19.895 01:09:23.410

But it just happened. then I said [FOREIGN]

01:09:23.410 01:09:26.845

And your brothers went to Montreal.

01:09:26.845 01:09:33.160

Then slowly he got his wife and the other kids back. also I came.

01:09:33.160 01:09:34.090

All came to Montreal?

01:09:34.090 01:09:35.350

Yeah. they came to Montreal.

01:09:35.350 01:09:37.325

But you're the only one who went to Baltimore?

01:09:37.325 01:09:37.795

Yeah.

01:09:37.795 01:09:39.280

Okay. To Yeshiva?

01:09:39.280 01:09:39.940

Yeah.

01:09:39.940 01:09:41.920

How did they receive you there?

01:09:41.920 01:09:44.410

Did you know English?

01:09:44.410 01:09:46.530

I had papers for the place.

01:09:46.530 01:09:47.870

Did you know English when you came to the state?

01:09:47.870 01:09:49.370

I don't think I knew anything.

01:09:49.370 01:09:51.335

I don't know the year this year. I don't know English.

01:09:51.335 01:09:52.695

So. how did you manage there?

01:09:52.695 01:09:56.140

I went to Ulpan. I didn't go to Ulpan for heaven's sake.

01:09:56.140 01:10:01.410

That's why I thought I learn in Britain by itself. that doesn't go.

01:10:01.410 01:10:02.980

The studies in Baltimore.

01:10:02.980 01:10:04.500

what language was it?

01:10:04.500 01:10:06.095

Lesean kurdish?

01:10:06.095 01:10:11.660

It was in Kurdish. but now it's in English translated it into English.

01:10:11.660 01:10:14.990

The [inaudible] into English.

01:10:14.990 01:10:17.020

Were there other survivors there?

01:10:17.020 01:10:22.830

They come. One. Harry came later and a couple more of people.

01:10:22.830 01:10:25.640

Not only from Denmark or from other places in New York?

01:10:25.640 01:10:28.170

Also from other places too.

01:10:28.350 01:10:30.535

Have you been in L.A.

01:10:30.535 01:10:31.175

Yes.

01:10:31.175 01:10:32.580

There's a guy Friedman.

01:10:32.580 01:10:36.290

a billionaire. you didn't interview him?

01:10:36.290 01:10:37.790

No. we don't interview.

01:10:37.790 01:10:39.080

Rich people? What do you mean?

01:10:39.080 01:10:40.985

No. we interview rich people.

01:10:40.985 01:10:42.800

but in Israel not abroad.

01:10:42.800 01:10:43.425

Okay.

01:10:43.425 01:10:46.810

If he'll come to Israel we can interview him.

01:10:46.810 01:10:48.370

Now. say he must have come from other guy.

01:10:48.370 01:10:49.690

He came from somewhere.

01:10:49.690 01:10:51.635

Yes. but what I'm asking is.

01:10:51.635 01:10:53.275

did they speak about the war?

01:10:53.275 01:10:55.070

Did people talk about the war.

01:10:55.070 01:10:56.560

I mean the Second World War?

01:10:56.560 01:10:58.365

Like when you were in Yeshiva.

01:10:58.365 01:11:00.360

the guys who went through the war.

01:11:00.360 01:11:01.665

did they speak about it?

01:11:01.665 01:11:05.225

Do you recall talks about the war?

01:11:05.225 01:11:07.295

I don't think so.

01:11:07.295 01:11:11.895

Did you have contact with non-Jews in Baltimore?

01:11:11.895 01:11:14.360

No. where the Yesheva guys have us-

01:11:14.360 01:11:16.490

Only Yesheva? No contact with the Americans?

01:11:16.490 01:11:19.895

It was 80 or 100 kids in the school. I don't know.

01:11:19.895 01:11:22.850

But no contact with the Americans.

01:11:22.850 01:11:23.675

I'd rarely know.

01:11:23.675 01:11:25.835

How many years were you in Baltimore?

01:11:25.835 01:11:29.150

From '46 till '51.

01:11:29.150 01:11:33.410

Five years? Okay. In those years.

01:11:33.410 01:11:36.705

In between I went home for Yontiv.

01:11:36.705 01:11:37.340

To Montreal?

01:11:37.340 01:11:38.270

Yeah.

01:11:38.270 01:11:39.500

Okay.

01:11:39.500 01:11:45.425

And then '49. I looked for a girl or something.

01:11:45.425 01:11:49.655

I fell over this girl on the beach in Rockaway.

01:11:49.655 01:11:50.720

Okay. and then?

01:11:50.720 01:11:52.535

And then we got married in '50.

01:11:52.535 01:11:55.070

In 1950. and what's the full name of your wife?

01:11:55.070 01:11:57.440

And we still went back to Baltimore.

01:11:57.440 01:11:58.370

Okay. What's the name of-

01:11:58.370 01:12:00.300

We had the first baby there. that's it.

01:12:00.300 01:12:05.585

Okay. So. first tell us the name of your wife. full name.

01:12:05.585 01:12:07.295

Schull Amit.

01:12:07.295 01:12:08.300

And what was your maiden name?

01:12:08.300 01:12:09.440

I call her Schullamy.

01:12:09.440 01:12:10.565

I mean Schull Amit.

01:12:10.565 01:12:12.655

Okay. What was your maiden name?

01:12:12.655 01:12:14.050

Lebovitz.

01:12:14.050 01:12:16.300

Okay. She was born in the States?

01:12:16.300 01:12:17.380

Yeah.

01:12:17.380 01:12:19.550

Okay.

01:12:19.550 01:12:23.385

But she speaks Hungarian because she went to visit before the war.

01:12:23.385 01:12:25.190

and then they told her.

01:12:25.190 01:12:28.515

why don't you get back because the road voy is coming?

01:12:28.515 01:12:29.065

Okay.

01:12:29.065 01:12:31.160

So. she came back to America.

01:12:31.160 01:12:33.875

And your first child. was?

01:12:33.875 01:12:35.000

Was a girl.

01:12:35.000 01:12:36.200

Was a girl. what's her name?

01:12:36.200 01:12:41.330

Toby. she has 15 kids.

01:12:41.330 01:12:42.620

she does know what to do.

01:12:42.620 01:12:49.200

Okay. tell us the rest of your children. who are they?

01:12:49.200 01:12:52.790

After Toby. can you tell us?

01:12:53.260 01:12:56.225

Hillo is the next guy.

01:12:56.225 01:13:00.950

And then? Just tell us the names of your kids. that's okay.

01:13:00.950 01:13:03.015

I cant remember all of them in one shot.

01:13:03.015 01:13:04.815

Not even in order. it doesn't matter.

01:13:04.815 01:13:05.990

Just tell us their names.

01:13:05.990 01:13:14.530

Hillo. Yitzhak. Yahu.

01:13:17.410 01:13:22.625

Moshi. Swee. and then the.

01:13:22.625 01:13:23.390

Girls?

01:13:23.390 01:13:26.945

And then they got the girls. it's Toby. and Esther.

01:13:26.945 01:13:40.060

and Mamila. and Naomi. Rose. what else?

01:13:40.060 01:13:42.040

I don't know. We got to 13?

01:13:42.040 01:13:43.995

I don't remember.

01:13:43.995 01:13:48.305

So. what did you do after you finish?

01:13:48.305 01:13:49.950

You got married. you finished the Yeshiva.

01:13:49.950 01:13:51.525

what did you work in the States.

01:13:51.525 01:13:54.350

you remained in the States or left for Montreal?

01:13:54.350 01:13:55.910

I did a lot of work.

01:13:55.910 01:13:58.390

Where did you live in Baltimore?

01:13:58.390 01:14:00.760

For the first year in Baltimore.

01:14:00.760 01:14:02.070

but there I was learning.

01:14:02.070 01:14:04.340

And afterwards. when you had already a family?

01:14:04.340 01:14:06.590

Afterwards then we went back to New York in the Bronx.

01:14:06.590 01:14:07.415

In the Bronx?

01:14:07.415 01:14:16.370

Yeah. and I got a job in the oil burner business. a burner mechanic.

01:14:16.370 01:14:19.190

Shabbos was out. so it didn't work out.

01:14:19.190 01:14:24.900

I was

01:14:24.900 01:14:29.250

That shows?

01:14:29.250 01:14:33.590

Okay.

01:14:33.590 01:14:36.850

I did a lot of things.

01:14:36.850 01:14:42.620

I was in Ferio for 10 years.

01:14:42.620 01:14:43.150

Really?

01:14:43.150 01:14:47.995

Ladies' mink coats. I used to nail them.

01:14:47.995 01:14:53.440

And I was in plastics. plastic slipcovers.

01:14:53.440 01:14:55.870

Okay. Many jobs.

01:14:55.870 01:14:59.220

I was in the Diamonds. slicing Diamonds.

01:14:59.220 01:15:01.705

Okay. When you went to.

01:15:01.705 01:15:04.285

And I was managing apartment houses in Harlem.

01:15:04.285 01:15:04.810

Okay.

01:15:04.810 01:15:06.190

That's the end.

01:15:06.190 01:15:09.405

When you went to study in Baltimore.

01:15:09.405 01:15:13.685

the State of Israel was born.

01:15:13.685 01:15:16.810

48. I'm talking about Antwerp. do you remember that?

01:15:16.810 01:15:18.010

48. yeah.

01:15:18.010 01:15:19.655

Did they celebrate it there?

01:15:19.655 01:15:21.330

I don't recall that.

01:15:21.330 01:15:23.380

Were you active in the Jewish community?

01:15:23.380 01:15:27.450

No. I wasn't active.

01:15:27.450 01:15:30.650

No. and afterwards. were you active

01:15:30.650 01:15:33.750

in some kind of Zionist movement in the United States?

01:15:33.750 01:15:36.990

No. I don't know if I knew the language yet.

01:15:36.990 01:15:38.460

I don't recall when and how long it took.

01:15:38.460 01:15:40.625

After you immigrated to the states.

01:15:40.625 01:15:45.780

would you go back and visit Denmark. the Kobenhavn?

01:15:45.780 01:15:47.410

For first 50 years.

01:15:47.410 01:15:49.350

I didn't go anywhere. Much later.

01:15:49.350 01:15:50.190

You went back?

01:15:50.190 01:15:52.590

I start. yeah. I used to go with Harry.

01:15:52.590 01:15:58.440

the Rabbi Harry. because he still has two sisters there.

01:15:58.440 01:16:01.530

Did you have Danish friends or you didn't keep in touch?

01:16:01.530 01:16:03.245

Yeah. I have emailed.

01:16:03.245 01:16:04.580

certainly. a couple of guys.

01:16:04.580 01:16:06.760

Also non-Jews? Danish?

01:16:06.760 01:16:11.260

Non-Jews. Well. I meet sometimes people here. in Israel.

01:16:11.260 01:16:16.860

some Sheikhs or whatever and they'll send me letters. I answer back.

01:16:16.860 01:16:19.350

But that wasn't nothing special.

01:16:19.350 01:16:26.090

Okay. So. how much of what you went through. the war.

01:16:26.090 01:16:28.050

the times that the Germans were there.

01:16:28.050 01:16:30.630

the fact that you had to escape.

01:16:30.630 01:16:33.810

how much of it remained with you in the States?

01:16:33.810 01:16:35.850

Is it something that you just put aside.

01:16:35.850 01:16:38.070

you said this is part of childhood.

01:16:38.070 01:16:39.220

it happened in the past?

01:16:39.220 01:16:39.975

Oh. in the States?

01:16:39.975 01:16:41.970

Yeah. was it part of your life?

01:16:41.970 01:16:43.750

Is it something you thought about.

01:16:43.750 01:16:45.940

you had dreams about it?

01:16:45.940 01:16:52.750

Did you dream about your past in Sweden and being a refugee?

01:16:52.750 01:16:56.850

I don't think so because I was busy with making pianos.

01:16:56.850 01:16:58.515

I believe. with the kids.

01:16:58.515 01:17:03.040

And the whole subject of the Shoah. of the Holocaust.

01:17:03.040 01:17:04.880

was it something you read about.

01:17:04.880 01:17:06.450

you went to see movies.

01:17:06.450 01:17:09.420

is it something that you took interest in?

01:17:11.530 01:17:14.210

All right? Not on purpose.

01:17:14.210 01:17:15.620

Not on purpose.

01:17:15.620 01:17:18.130

You watch television. you see something.

01:17:18.130 01:17:24.430

When did you understand that you're actually a survivor?

01:17:24.430 01:17:30.520

And it's not as we say in Hebrew.

01:17:30.520 01:17:32.540

The Germans were there.

01:17:32.540 01:17:39.290

they could have sent you just as they sent millions of people who they murdered.

01:17:39.290 01:17:43.595

When did you understand that you're a survivor. actually?

01:17:43.595 01:17:49.360

Well that. my best history I know about.

01:17:49.360 01:17:51.940

I don't go into details.

01:17:51.940 01:17:54.855

Okay. But when you think about it today?

01:17:54.855 01:17:55.430

Today?

01:17:55.430 01:17:57.875

Yes. if you think retrospectively.

01:17:57.875 01:18:00.700

I mean. I should be thankful to.

01:18:00.700 01:18:02.275

That's what I want to ask you.

01:18:02.275 01:18:03.760

But I want to ask you. do you see.

01:18:03.760 01:18:04.705

It goes without saying.

01:18:04.705 01:18:09.390

Okay. Not necessarily. because I'll explain to you what I mean.

01:18:09.390 01:18:13.070

How do you see your rescue.

01:18:13.070 01:18:14.660

the fact that you're a survivor.

01:18:14.660 01:18:18.110

is it just by luck. destiny.

01:18:18.110 01:18:22.470

chance or do you see it as a miracle from God?

01:18:22.470 01:18:23.040

Everything.

01:18:23.040 01:18:26.955

Okay. So. I want to ask you a very delicate question about that.

01:18:26.955 01:18:30.240

You're a religious man. you're a believer.

01:18:30.240 01:18:32.845

and I want to ask about faith.

01:18:32.845 01:18:35.970

not about religion but faith. okay?

01:18:35.970 01:18:40.445

We know that there are Holocaust survivors who came from

01:18:40.445 01:18:44.290

very orthodox families and they survived

01:18:44.290 01:18:50.625

the Holocaust but something with their belief was undermined.

01:18:50.625 01:18:54.750

I don't have to even resonate the cliche.

01:18:54.750 01:18:56.640

where was God and things like that.

01:18:56.640 01:19:03.145

On the other hand. we know of Holocaust survivors who after the war

01:19:03.145 01:19:09.900

became even more religious and it strengthened their belief. their faith.

01:19:09.900 01:19:10.290

Yeah.

01:19:10.290 01:19:12.540

Did it have in any way.

01:19:12.540 01:19:15.505

any effect on your faith. the Shoah?

01:19:15.505 01:19:19.400

Did it undermine. did it strengthen or it had no effect on you?

01:19:19.400 01:19:22.670

I'm challenging you now.

01:19:22.670 01:19:23.435

Yeah. I know.

01:19:23.435 01:19:25.550

You don't have to answer it if you don't want to.

01:19:25.550 01:19:26.345

I don't know what to say.

01:19:26.345 01:19:30.730

What do you think? Or it had no effect. you think?

01:19:30.730 01:19:33.925

No. because to me everything is so.

01:19:33.925 01:19:36.675

But how do you explain? Can you explain what happened?

01:19:36.675 01:19:38.420

Children who were murdered?

01:19:38.420 01:19:41.110

That is hard to explain.

01:19:41.110 01:19:44.505

But for you. it's all.

01:19:44.505 01:19:48.880

Yes. it's hard to understand.

01:19:48.880 01:19:50.300

Okay. But it didn't undermine.

01:19:50.300 01:19:52.670

it didn't change anything?

01:19:52.670 01:19:54.045

No.

01:19:54.045 01:19:59.270

Okay. I want to mention two other things and you were in the States.

01:19:59.270 01:20:09.210

But in the early 50's in Israel.

01:20:09.210 01:20:18.345

there was a very harsh debate among the Israeli society about compensation money.

01:20:18.345 01:20:21.635

what we call from Germany.

01:20:21.635 01:20:22.550

Yeah.

01:20:22.550 01:20:26.855

Were you aware of this argument against. for.

01:20:26.855 01:20:32.055

I thought they got. everybody got.

01:20:32.055 01:20:34.030

Yes. but there was a big debate.

01:20:34.030 01:20:36.075

There were a lot of people that were against it.

01:20:36.075 01:20:37.600

Bergen was against it.

01:20:37.600 01:20:40.630

He thought. "We don't do deals with Satan."|

01:20:40.630 01:20:41.875

Because he doesn't need it.

01:20:41.875 01:20:43.460

No. not because of that.

01:20:43.460 01:20:45.165

Because he said. "We can't buy.

01:20:45.165 01:20:49.345

the Germans. they can't buy our blood with money.

01:20:49.345 01:20:51.040

Oh. that's what he meant.

01:20:51.040 01:20:56.130

That's what he said. "We don't deal with the Satan. okay?"

01:20:56.130 01:20:57.855

With the devil. for him.

01:20:57.855 01:20:59.890

But Ben Gurion was for it.

01:20:59.890 01:21:05.440

and a lot of the compensation money that the country received. they built the country.

01:21:05.440 01:21:07.475

But people were for and against.

01:21:07.475 01:21:08.730

but you weren't aware of it.

01:21:08.730 01:21:09.230

I didn't know that. no.

01:21:09.230 01:21:11.630

Okay. The other thing that I want to ask you.

01:21:11.630 01:21:13.980

you're still in the States.

01:21:13.980 01:21:20.415

early 60's. State of Israel caught Adolf Eichmann.

01:21:20.415 01:21:22.915

There was a famous. hear in Jerusalem.

01:21:22.915 01:21:25.310

was the famous trial of Eichmann.

01:21:25.310 01:21:27.215

Do you remember that?

01:21:27.215 01:21:28.480

I believe I did.

01:21:28.480 01:21:30.095

Did you watch anything?

01:21:30.095 01:21:32.355

Did you follow that?

01:21:32.355 01:21:36.745

Sort of. It's long time ago. I don't know.

01:21:36.745 01:21:40.125

Yeah. it was in the 60's because it was a big thing in Israel.

01:21:40.125 01:21:43.285

Yeah. I have seen.

01:21:43.285 01:21:44.695

recently I saw some.

01:21:44.695 01:21:46.760

It also signified a lot of change in

01:21:46.760 01:21:50.700

the attitude of Israeli society towards the Holocaust.

01:21:50.700 01:21:54.945

talking about the Holocaust and accepting survivors. and not judging.

01:21:54.945 01:21:58.450

It opened the whole issue more than before.

01:21:58.450 01:22:01.275

But you don't remember much of that?

01:22:01.275 01:22:04.520

Okay. Or the Nuremberg trials after the war.

01:22:04.520 01:22:05.820

you weren't aware of that?

01:22:05.820 01:22:07.950

I knew there was something. but.

01:22:07.950 01:22:14.660

Okay. So in 1987. you make aliyah.

01:22:14.660 01:22:17.050

What brought the change?

01:22:17.050 01:22:19.150

That's basically my parents.

01:22:19.150 01:22:23.540

My mother is getting forgetful and my father needed help.

01:22:23.540 01:22:25.005

He told me to come and help him.

01:22:25.005 01:22:26.760

So they made aliyah before?

01:22:26.760 01:22:27.800

Yeah. they were here before.

01:22:27.800 01:22:30.305

They came to Israel before from Montreal?

01:22:30.305 01:22:33.460

Yeah. they even before before.

01:22:33.460 01:22:38.000

They once came to.

01:22:38.000 01:22:40.140

years before they made aliyah.

01:22:40.140 01:22:40.555

Yeah.

01:22:40.555 01:22:42.180

After he retired.

01:22:42.180 01:22:43.190

Yeah. from Montreal?

01:22:43.190 01:22:46.890

Yeah. He went to and he bought

01:22:46.890 01:22:52.675

an apartment and he lived there for a couple of years and then he got homesick for us.

01:22:52.675 01:22:57.040

his kids. so he came back.

01:22:59.670 01:23:06.490

Later on. he came back to America.

01:23:06.490 01:23:10.110

He was a cousin in San Diego. in Los Angeles.

01:23:10.110 01:23:11.510

all over the place. where he went.

01:23:11.510 01:23:15.040

And then.

01:23:15.040 01:23:19.035

Yeah. He even lived with us in Long Beach.

01:23:19.035 01:23:21.930

Then all of a sudden. he went back to Israel.

01:23:21.930 01:23:26.700

So. you came in '87?

01:23:26.700 01:23:28.200

That's before. And then.

01:23:28.200 01:23:30.950

in the '87. he asked me to come and help him.

01:23:30.950 01:23:33.195

Okay. And you came to Jerusalem?

01:23:33.195 01:23:35.355

Yeah. Well. it been. yeah.

01:23:35.355 01:23:37.800

You still worked here or you were already retired?

01:23:37.800 01:23:39.270

No. I was still around 60.

01:23:39.270 01:23:41.820

my father says. "You're going to take care of this and that."

01:23:41.820 01:23:44.070

So. you met Aliya?

01:23:44.070 01:23:44.805

Yeah.

01:23:44.805 01:23:46.820

And some of your kids are here.

01:23:46.820 01:23:48.180

some of your kids are in the States?

01:23:48.180 01:23:49.940

Yeah. I got more there than here.

01:23:49.940 01:23:51.425

I see. Okay.

01:23:51.425 01:23:54.450

My girls are Hasidish. except for one.

01:23:54.450 01:23:55.590

Which Hasidut?

01:23:55.590 01:23:56.420

Vizhnitz.

01:23:56.420 01:23:57.465

Vizhnitz. okay.

01:23:57.465 01:23:59.170

So. they ain't going to come here.

01:23:59.170 01:24:00.630

but they come for like Burma.

01:24:00.630 01:24:02.170

they come only to visit.

01:24:02.170 01:24:03.185

Like Burma.

01:24:03.185 01:24:04.820

Yeah. every like Burma.

01:24:04.820 01:24:06.420

two and three girls come.

01:24:06.420 01:24:07.910

Are you also Hasidic today?

01:24:07.910 01:24:10.100

No. Do I like the-

01:24:10.100 01:24:12.560

But I don't know. Maybe you are associated.

01:24:12.560 01:24:17.075

He's Hasidic. Look at his spear and stuff but no.

01:24:17.075 01:24:20.385

Okay. So. since the '87. you're in Israel?.

01:24:20.385 01:24:20.965

Yeah.

01:24:20.965 01:24:23.460

And you visited Denmark?

01:24:23.460 01:24:26.975

That's where I make a living so I drop people to the airport.

01:24:26.975 01:24:27.755

Really?

01:24:27.755 01:24:29.620

I'm cheaper than a taxi.

01:24:29.620 01:24:35.005

but now the [inaudible] cab man took my business away.

01:24:35.005 01:24:39.350

You can take a [inaudible] for 16 Scotland.

01:24:39.350 01:24:42.260

go to the airport with a beautiful bus.

01:24:42.260 01:24:44.900

What about [inaudible].

01:24:44.900 01:24:46.995

And [inaudible] they killed him also.

01:24:46.995 01:24:47.920

Okay.

01:24:47.920 01:24:50.080

Every hour and the hour. they go now.

01:24:50.080 01:24:51.285

So. you still work?

01:24:51.285 01:24:53.250

Yeah. well if they call me I go.

01:24:53.250 01:24:54.960

You are 80?

01:24:54.960 01:24:56.430

I'm only-

01:24:56.430 01:24:58.370

You're only 89?

01:24:58.370 01:24:59.630

Whatever. yeah.

01:24:59.630 01:25:00.665

Or something like that.

01:25:00.665 01:25:01.570

Eighty-eight. 89.

01:25:01.570 01:25:02.660

Eighty-eight and you're still working?

01:25:02.660 01:25:07.920

Well. you call that work because I drive a couple of times to the airport?

01:25:07.920 01:25:12.840

I don't know so many people who are 89 years or 88 that are still driving.

01:25:12.840 01:25:14.565

to tell you the truth.

01:25:14.565 01:25:17.050

Right. Good for you.

01:25:17.290 01:25:19.390

Okay.

01:25:19.390 01:25:23.155

I want one last note in this interview.

01:25:23.155 01:25:23.700

Yeah.

01:25:23.700 01:25:26.030

About the Danish people.

01:25:26.410 01:25:30.860

Why don't you come with me to Denmark? I'll be your tour guide.

01:25:30.860 01:25:36.940

So. you still have some warm feelings in your heart towards the Danish people.

01:25:36.940 01:25:43.245

Would you see them as those who saved you. your life?

01:25:43.245 01:25:45.480

Do you see the Danish people?

01:25:45.480 01:25:46.425

The Danish people?

01:25:46.425 01:25:47.385

Yes.

01:25:47.385 01:25:50.560

Yeah. I don't know them personally.

01:25:50.560 01:25:54.720

But do you feel that you owe your life to them?

01:25:54.720 01:25:56.760

In a way. yeah. We can say that. yeah.

01:25:56.760 01:26:00.025

They are very special and the fact also that.

01:26:00.025 01:26:01.885

I think they're the only nation.

01:26:01.885 01:26:06.075

I think maybe the only or two or maybe those-

01:26:06.075 01:26:08.130

There's Nazis. and then. there are my girls also.

01:26:08.130 01:26:15.560

Of course. but what I'm saying that they received the righteous of nations.

01:26:15.560 01:26:17.830

[inaudible] as a nation not as a person.

01:26:17.830 01:26:25.210

as a whole nation because what they did to save their Jews during the Second World War.

01:26:25.210 01:26:28.385

But you see how things are changing all of sudden because of the Muslim?

01:26:28.385 01:26:29.420

You know that outsider?

01:26:29.420 01:26:30.900

Okay. but that's a different issue.

01:26:30.900 01:26:33.510

We're talking about what you remember of Denmark.

01:26:33.510 01:26:35.950

Okay. They were not there then.

01:26:35.950 01:26:38.505

Okay. So. we learn any other thing.

01:26:38.505 01:26:41.575

we are coming to an end.

01:26:41.575 01:26:45.310

Any other memories of something that you remember and you still want to

01:26:45.310 01:26:48.915

tell us that comes up to your mind now before we end?

01:26:48.915 01:26:50.960

Would you like to share anything else?

01:26:50.960 01:26:51.895

Off hand.

01:26:51.895 01:26:52.780

Okay.

01:26:52.780 01:26:53.845

I enjoyed your visit.

01:26:53.845 01:26:55.290

Thank you. We did too.

01:26:55.290 01:26:57.120

I would like you to end.

01:26:57.120 01:27:00.665

if you can by saying a few words to your-

01:27:00.665 01:27:01.330

A little bit.

01:27:01.330 01:27:03.580

I'll explain. To your family.

01:27:03.580 01:27:08.410

children. grandchildren. great grandchildren.

01:27:08.410 01:27:11.000

Based on your life experience.

01:27:11.000 01:27:13.240

what would you like to say to them?

01:27:13.240 01:27:16.375

What would you want to wish them?

01:27:16.375 01:27:18.760

Say something to them ending and-

01:27:18.760 01:27:21.160

You see. I talk through my lawyer.

01:27:21.160 01:27:22.900

But now. talk to the camera.

01:27:22.900 01:27:24.160

I don't know what to say.

01:27:24.160 01:27:26.245

Say something to them.

01:27:26.245 01:27:29.125

Okay. What would you like to wish all of them?

01:27:29.125 01:27:33.980

What do I wish them?

01:27:33.980 01:27:36.050

Based on your experience in life.

01:27:36.050 01:27:37.390

what would you like to tell them?

01:27:37.390 01:27:38.860

That's local to everybody.

01:27:38.860 01:27:40.105

I don't know what to say.

01:27:40.105 01:27:43.290

Amen? Okay? I want to thank you very much.

01:27:43.290 01:27:43.890

You're welcome.

01:27:43.890 01:27:46.870

On behalf of myself and on behalf of Yad Vashem.

01:27:46.870 01:27:49.850

and to wish you and your wife good health.

01:27:49.850 01:27:53.840

and [inaudible] from your big family to [inaudible]

01:27:53.840 01:27:59.510

Thanks a lot. This is

01:27:59.510 01:28:05.750

my dear Father.

01:28:05.750 01:28:09.260

Their great cousin Eugene Goldberger.

01:28:09.260 01:28:16.895

and his wife. my mother. Hannah Helen Goldberger.

01:28:16.895 01:28:19.355

When they got married.

01:28:19.355 01:28:24.480

I guess in Bratislava somewhere Czechoslovakia.

01:28:30.250 01:28:34.190

This is my father in the center.

01:28:34.190 01:28:40.100

Hasid Goldberger in the Danish synagogue in Kobenhavn.

01:28:40.100 01:28:46.780

Pope Christelle here. he's the Hasid

01:28:46.780 01:28:55.580

there for 15 years at least.

01:28:55.580 01:29:00.305

This is a picture of my Danish School in Kobenhavn.

01:29:00.305 01:29:01.175

Jewish school?

01:29:01.175 01:29:03.465

Jewish school in Kobenhavn.

01:29:03.465 01:29:11.650

I'm on the end of the right.

01:29:11.650 01:29:19.990

This is Puttin Servais.

01:29:19.990 01:29:26.900

the Jewish school.

01:29:26.900 01:29:29.975

This is for my four brothers.

01:29:29.975 01:29:34.355

One there to your right. you have Eric.

01:29:34.355 01:29:36.950

I'm sorry. I have Leo.

01:29:36.950 01:29:41.430

Eric and myself and Gus Goldberger

01:29:41.430 01:29:52.040

all in New York.

01:29:52.040 01:29:58.775

This picture is myself and my wife plus my daughters in the background.

01:29:58.775 01:29:59.930

Can you say their names?

01:29:59.930 01:30:03.200

Okay.

01:30:03.200 01:30:07.150

You've got

01:30:07.150 01:30:17.970

Esther and Mamala.

01:30:19.240 01:30:23.510

Okay.

01:30:23.510 01:30:25.250

Whatever.

01:30:25.250 01:30:29.135

This is only part of my family.

01:30:29.135 01:30:30.830

Children. grandchildren?

01:30:30.830 01:30:34.200

Children. grand children. and so forth.

01:30:34.200 01:30:39.630

You better stop.

Testimony of Menashe Milan Goldberger, born in Vukovar, Yugoslavia in 1928, regarding his family's move to Copenhagen in 1934, German occupation in 1940, escape and life in hiding in a village, escape to Goteborg, emigration to the United States in 1946, and aliya to Israel in 1987 His childhood in Vukovar, Yugoslavia and in Slovakia; his family's emigration to Copenhagen, Denmark in 1934 due to his father's work as a cantor; German occupation in 1940; his father's detention by the Germans; his father's release; escape and life in hiding in a village while hidden by two priests; escape to Goteborg, Sweden with help from Danish fishermen; life as refugees during the war; his father's work as a cantor; liberation in 1945; return to Copenhagen after the end of the war; emigration to New York in 1946; studies in a yeshiva in Baltimore; marriage in 1950; aliya to Israel in 1987; absorption in Israel.