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Guenter Cohn

Guenter Cohn

Testimony

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The 16th of May 2017. [Foreign language].

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This is an interview with Mr. Gunther Kon.

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You were born in Berlin. Germany. in 1934.

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Before we begin. we should mention that

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today is the day you arrived to America 70 years ago.

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That is correct.

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So. most of your life were definitely in America.

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Yes.

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It wasn't your bar mitzvah?

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Actually. I had my bar mitzvah.

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I turned 13 on the ocean and had my bar mitzvah in New York.

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Let's begin with background of your family.

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What do you know about the origins of your family?

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Were they born in Germany?

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Were you the four generations?

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In about middle of the 1800s.

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there was a cantor by the name of [Foreign language] who came to

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Berlin and he ultimately sponsored his relatives.

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which included my family.

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My grandparents on both sides were born at

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the border of Berlin and Poland in an area that was one day Polish. one day German.

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You mean. the area of Posen?

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Yes.

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Oh. and maybe Dresden [inaudible] Posen?

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I believe it was Posen.

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They didn't immigrate to Germany.

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but it became Germany.

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I think when they were born.

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it was already Germany.

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and then. they moved to Berlin.

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You're talking about your paternal grandparents?

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I'm talking about maternal.

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Your paternal grandparents?

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I think they came from generally the same area.

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but I know nothing about that.

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What was your father's name?

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My father's name was Martin.

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Your mother's name?

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Rosa.

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Her maiden name was Brinnick.

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Brinnick.

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So. your parents were already born in Berlin?

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Yes.

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Both of them?

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Both of them.

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That means that at home you spoke only German.

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That's correct.

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Did your parents speak any other language when they want you not to understand something.

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or anything like that?

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Well. there was another language

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or they just wanted to warn that something was going to be said.

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they would say. [Foreign language].

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silent before the children.

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Which is Yiddish [Foreign language] . something together.

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Something together which made the ears perk up.

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so you knew you had to listen.

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How many children were you?

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Just my brother and myself.

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He's older than you?

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My brother was older than me. yes.

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When was he born?

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He was born in October of 1931.

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His name?

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His birth name was Gerhard.

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G-E-R-H-A-R-D. but he went by Gary.

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We're talking about what you used to call at that time Western [Foreign language].

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which means in oppose to.

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Eastern Europe. yes.

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To the other kind of Jews.

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You. as a child.

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do you remember the distinction between the West and the East Jews?

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No. not as a child.

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Perhaps as I got older in Shanghai.

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I became aware of a distinction.

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But the people I associated with primarily were of this similar background.

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so I did not really fully understand the distinction.

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What was your parents occupation?

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My mother was a tailor.

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and my father was in the hat-making business with his father.

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When you say she was a tailor.

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that means men's clothes?

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No. ladies clothing.

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Like. what I use to say seamstress?

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No. she was haute couture.

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A little higher than a seamstress.

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She was a girl with the golden hands.

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She had like a fashion salon at home?

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In Shanghai. she had a salon.

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and also worked out of her home.

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In Berlin?

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In Berlin. she worked for a company.

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[Foreign language]. so it was a higher class.

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Which was near the Opera Square.

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Yeah.

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So. your mother was working even after she got married and after she had children?

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As far as I know.

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Your father. you said he had a business?

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Well. his father had the business.

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and he was the. in fact.

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salesman on the road.

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What kind of business was it?

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Hats.

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Men's hats?

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Men's hats. yes.

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They were making the hats?

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Yes. they were making the hats.

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Selling them in Germany. not abroad?

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No. just Germany.

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So. he was long time on the roads.

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That means that as a child.

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you didn't see him a lot.

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Frankly. I don't remember that he was missing

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a lot because in Germany. I was still young.

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Were you a religious family?

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We were Jewish.

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But you know. in Germany you had all kinds of Jews.

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Well. we were what in Germany was called. I think liberal.

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We went to a liberal synagogue

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and Jewish in the sense that observed all of the Yom Tovim.

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Not Jews in the sense of extremely from. not wearing Payots-

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You can say that you were orthodox Jews.

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We were Jews. not titles.

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Titles are pretty meaningless.

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You remember yourself in Germany go

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to the synagogue with your father every Friday. Saturday?

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No. I do not remember that.

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But as you heard.

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you used to go with him every week?

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No. In Shanghai. I do not remember that we went to every week to do services.

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Part of our life in Shanghai.

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I went to the community Yeshiva.

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and then obviously. we went to services with our friends.

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Did you go to kindergarten in Berlin?

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I don't know.

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Do you know where did you live in Berlin?

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I know the address.

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I know the area that it was in. but that's about all.

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What kind of area was it?

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Was it a Jewish area?

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Generally. I would say yes.

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As far as I understand.

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your financial status was good in Berlin.

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As far as I knew. it was good.

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Relatively speaking. it was good.

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Did you know your grandparents?

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I have no recollection of them at all.

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Do you know after whom you are called?

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I was called after a cousin I believe.

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on my father's side.

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That means that maybe they

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were alive when you were born. your grandparents. your grandfathers?

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I don't believe so. no.

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My grandparents were alive when I was born.

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Both sides?

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Both sides. My maternal grandfather died in August of 1936.

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but the rest died in the shower.

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Did your parents come from large families?

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My maternal grandmother was the oldest of 14.

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So. your mother had many uncles and aunts.

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Yes. and cousins.

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Did your mother have a lot of brothers and sisters?

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She had two sisters.

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In Berlin?

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In Berlin.

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Your father?

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My father had one sister who left Berlin about five months before we did.

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Do you know how did your parents meet?

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Yes. My father's sister had a birthday party.

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and my mother went to that.

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and that's where she met my father.

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So. it wasn't matchmaking?

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No. it was not arranged.

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Do you know if there was any connection to Zionism when your parents were in Berlin?

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I know that my mother was a member of the Maccabiah.

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the sports organization. and was active in that.

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She went to the Land of Israel. to Palestine with-.

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No. she didn't but some of her cousins did.

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and that's how that part of the family eventually some of them came to Arutz. in 1936.

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She was in Maccabi?

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Yes.

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What kind of sport?

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I don't know. I think everything.

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And your father?

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I don't know.

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When was your father born?

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My father was born in July of 1904.

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That means that he couldn't be a soldier in the First World War.

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But was he a soldier later on?

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No.

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Did your parents. as far as you know.

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you can't remember it.

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but did your parents feel completely German?

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No.

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You know like German patriots?

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No. From what I can tell.

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and what I can recall.

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and what I have put together as an adult is.

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we felt Jewish who happened to be German.

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That means that you didn't consider yourselves as others and as they said.

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Germans of the religion of Moses?

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You were first of all Jewish.

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Then German.

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Do you remember any holiday from Berlin?

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From Berlin? No.

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Or anything from Berlin?

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Do you have any memory?

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The only memory I have is a story that I was

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told that when we were ready to leave Berlin in 1938.

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I said I would dig out my grandfather from the cemetery and take him along.

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You don't remember any place or something that you used to doing in Berlin?

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No.

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What do you know about your parents.

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what happened to them after the Nazis came to power in 33?

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Well. interesting enough. it is because of my father's travels.

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that he made up his mind that he wanted to leave.

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My mother did not want to leave.

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because my father had said that the customers said.

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"We like your product.

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But we've been ordered not to deal with you." so he said he wanted to leave.

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Where to?

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Well. we tried to go to South America.

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But you think that your father wanted to leave in the early 30s.

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that means 33. 34.

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or only later on?

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No. I think it was a little later on.

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I think it was from what I have put together.

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from information like my mother's passport and my father's passport.

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it appeared to me that it was from the early part of 1938 on.

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is when there was a definite search to go somewhere.

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Was your father arrested in Germany?

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Fortunately. no.

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Or anyone from his family or your mother's family?

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Well. ultimately. they all died in the shower.

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Yes. but I'm talking before the summer of 38 let's say.

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My mother had a cousin who was murdered in March of 1933.

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The first Jew in Berlin.

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On the street?

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Yes. He was thrown out the window of a building.

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Do you think that your parents.

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as many of the German Jews.

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thought at the beginning. "Okay.

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we'll put our head down.

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this craziness will pass very fast.

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it can't last forever. and then we'll come back to our regular life?"

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I think to a certain extent. yes.

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My grandfathers had been in World War I.

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and when Hitler came to power he gave all veterans a medal.

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including the Jewish ones.

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So they thought this was a temporary insanity. it will pass.

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It took a little long to pass.

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Did the Nuremberg Laws

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influence something in your family.

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maybe you had a maid or something like that.

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If it did. I'm not aware of it.

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Do you think that you had a maid at home?

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Not in Germany.

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Because you were an infant.

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and your mother was working.

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so I suppose someone had to take care of you.

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and your brother was still very young.

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Yes. two and a half years older.

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Somebody obviously did. but I don't know.

00:17:40.490 00:17:46.125

Did you hear stories about Berlin later on?

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I heard stories about Berlin after the event.

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They were the nice stories. or the truth?

00:17:58.395 00:18:00.370

They were both.

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There were the stories of my mother growing up.

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and my father growing up in Berlin.

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Then obviously. after we found out what happened in World War II.

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I heard stories about that. too.

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So. your parents as we assume thought

00:18:28.070 00:18:33.675

that it's going to pass away.

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things will be normal again.

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and then came the Nuremberg Law and then came the Olympic games of

00:18:43.190 00:18:51.815

36 and Berlin was quiet again because he clearly didn't want to make waves in the world.

00:18:51.815 00:18:56.970

So. they thought it's okay.

00:18:57.480 00:19:06.970

In Germany. it was gradually getting walls and walls.

00:19:06.970 00:19:11.060

So then 37 and 38.

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I suppose that on a certain point as you said your father had

00:19:16.900 00:19:24.760

problems with business with a non-Jewish customers.

00:19:24.760 00:19:29.065

That's the time that he decided.okay.

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that's time to leave Germany.

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That's correct.

00:19:35.160 00:19:41.535

You said that they tried to get a visa to South America. What else?

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Any other country that would take us.

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America was known not to be very welcoming.

00:19:50.325 00:19:52.815

Did you have relatives in America?

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Yes. My grandfather had a cousin who lived here.

00:19:56.885 00:19:58.620

who sponsored my aunt.

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That's who left five months before we did.

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To America?

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Yes. She came to America.

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The stories that I heard is that everything was progressing.

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you were supposed to get your visa the day after tomorrow.

00:20:18.220 00:20:20.565

but that they never came.

00:20:20.565 00:20:23.420

Then some German official told my father.

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you have a passport. go.

00:20:31.680 00:20:38.035

So. they decided that they go to Shanghai?

00:20:38.035 00:20:38.600

Yes.

00:20:38.600 00:20:41.870

Because Shanghai didn't ask for visa?

00:20:41.870 00:20:42.785

That is correct.

00:20:42.785 00:20:46.410

But you needed a visa to leave Europe?

00:20:46.410 00:20:50.180

You needed a passport and also a permission to leave the country.

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Yes. Which we had.

00:20:54.150 00:20:59.830

Could you liquidate all your property in Germany?

00:20:59.830 00:21:04.570

I mean. if you had any property to sell it.

00:21:04.570 00:21:11.785

to sell the content of the house. Things like that.

00:21:11.785 00:21:14.215

We were able to do some of that.

00:21:14.215 00:21:16.570

I remember that in the apartment.

00:21:16.570 00:21:21.640

the one thing I do remember of Germany of that time was that my mother was showing

00:21:21.640 00:21:27.515

somebody that kitchen area and it had a very slippery floors.

00:21:27.515 00:21:32.060

Evidently. I came around and she gave me a push and I went

00:21:32.060 00:21:37.880

against the sink with a hole in the head.

00:21:40.080 00:21:45.095

That means that the apartment there was yours?

00:21:45.095 00:21:48.780

I really don't know. Don't know the details of that.

00:21:48.780 00:21:50.600

Because at that time.

00:21:50.600 00:21:54.220

Jews had problems to take all the properties.

00:21:54.220 00:21:55.045

Yes.

00:21:55.045 00:21:56.955

Outside Germany.

00:21:56.955 00:22:00.230

But it depends.

00:22:00.230 00:22:05.290

because usually the German Jews were really

00:22:05.290 00:22:11.315

strict. and they did exactly what they had to do by the law.

00:22:11.315 00:22:15.490

But there was a point that they understood.

00:22:15.490 00:22:18.580

okay. we can't go like that anymore.

00:22:18.580 00:22:23.155

We need somehow to bypass the law.

00:22:23.155 00:22:24.370

Oh. the only thing I.

00:22:24.370 00:22:28.210

So. you don't know how are your parents were in that point?

00:22:28.210 00:22:31.450

Well. I do know that when we traveled.

00:22:31.450 00:22:33.275

we were able to travel with.

00:22:33.275 00:22:36.260

take some China and crystals with us.

00:22:36.260 00:22:39.325

I know that because we sold that in Shanghai

00:22:39.325 00:22:41.080

And money?

00:22:41.080 00:22:44.330

Money not very much. No.

00:22:46.080 00:22:53.155

You don't know if your parents could send before you left Germany.

00:22:53.155 00:22:58.510

could put some money in banks abroad or something like that?

00:22:58.510 00:22:59.840

Never. If they did.

00:22:59.840 00:23:03.890

it was never found. It didn't happen.

00:23:04.000 00:23:11.325

So. you had a permit to go out of Germany.

00:23:11.325 00:23:17.780

You went by train to Jenova in Italy.

00:23:18.990 00:23:20.315

That's correct.

00:23:20.315 00:23:22.080

That means your parents.

00:23:22.080 00:23:25.945

your brother and you. Who else?

00:23:25.945 00:23:28.090

It's correct. Yes.

00:23:28.090 00:23:29.835

Who else besides you?

00:23:29.835 00:23:30.780

Nobody.

00:23:30.780 00:23:32.000

Your grandfather?

00:23:32.000 00:23:33.030

No.

00:23:33.030 00:23:38.150

No uncles. no aunts?

00:23:38.150 00:23:39.190

Nobody.

00:23:39.190 00:23:47.310

So. you went to Jenova and then you took Japanese.

00:23:47.310 00:23:52.015

No. We went on an Italian liner [Foreign language]

00:23:52.015 00:23:58.400

Which was not as luxurious as the Japanese?

00:23:59.130 00:24:02.145

I don't know if it was a luxurious.

00:24:02.145 00:24:03.740

I had no comparison.

00:24:03.740 00:24:08.370

but I don't believe we went first class.

00:24:09.260 00:24:11.660

For you as a child.

00:24:11.660 00:24:14.365

I suppose it was a great adventure?

00:24:14.365 00:24:14.730

Yes.

00:24:14.730 00:24:16.835

You didn't really understand anything?

00:24:16.835 00:24:17.920

No.

00:24:17.920 00:24:22.535

You remember anything from that ship?

00:24:22.535 00:24:24.305

Only one thing.

00:24:24.305 00:24:28.680

On the train as we entered from Germany into Italy.

00:24:28.680 00:24:31.580

on one side you had the German officials.

00:24:31.580 00:24:33.475

on the other side the Italian.

00:24:33.475 00:24:36.575

The Italian they had feathers in their hats.

00:24:36.575 00:24:39.450

They had funny hats with feathers in it.

00:24:39.450 00:24:42.950

As one officer came by.

00:24:42.950 00:24:47.110

he took out a feather and he said. "For the bambini."

00:24:47.110 00:24:48.595

For the baby.

00:24:48.595 00:24:50.150

Yes.

00:24:51.810 00:24:53.770

The Italian officer?

00:24:53.770 00:24:55.330

Yes. the Italian.

00:24:55.330 00:24:59.635

That's the one thing I always heard about and remember.

00:24:59.635 00:25:06.220

I suppose that was in Austria.

00:25:06.220 00:25:09.235

No. that was on the border.

00:25:09.235 00:25:13.130

There's no border between Germany and Italy.

00:25:13.260 00:25:15.760

Somewhere where the train.

00:25:15.760 00:25:18.070

It had to be.

00:25:18.070 00:25:24.580

I think on Austria. on Switzerland.

00:25:24.580 00:25:26.260

I suppose it was Austria.

00:25:26.260 00:25:30.155

I don't think the train went to Switzerland.

00:25:30.155 00:25:32.860

So. I suppose it was Austria.

00:25:32.860 00:25:33.670

Could have been.

00:25:33.670 00:25:38.105

Which at that time was under Nazi regime.

00:25:38.105 00:25:38.675

Yes.

00:25:38.675 00:25:44.550

We're talking about November '38?

00:25:44.550 00:25:48.785

We left Germany November the 18th 1938.

00:25:48.785 00:25:53.330

I understand that your parents understood.

00:25:53.910 00:25:56.040

Excuse me.

00:25:56.040 00:26:01.845

Your parents understood they should leave Germany at the beginning of '38.

00:26:01.845 00:26:05.740

They had all the preparations and then

00:26:05.740 00:26:14.335

came the 9th of November '38. the Kristallnacht.

00:26:14.335 00:26:17.455

Did you hear anything about it?

00:26:17.455 00:26:23.575

Yes. Because we had by then left the apartment we had lived in.

00:26:23.575 00:26:26.740

My father did not stay with us.

00:26:26.740 00:26:28.825

he stayed with others.

00:26:28.825 00:26:32.775

So. they didn't have a chance to arrest them.

00:26:32.775 00:26:35.405

They came to look for him?

00:26:35.405 00:26:37.710

They came to look for him.

00:26:37.870 00:26:41.460

Eight days later. we were gone.

00:26:41.820 00:26:47.890

Do you remember anything of the noise. the fire.

00:26:47.890 00:26:49.120

Did you see anything?

00:26:49.120 00:26:51.060

No. Honestly no.

00:26:51.060 00:26:54.240

What did you hear about it later on?

00:26:54.240 00:26:57.400

Well. later on as time went on.

00:26:57.400 00:26:59.275

you heard all of the details.

00:26:59.275 00:27:03.445

But I'm talking about your family in the Kristallnacht.

00:27:03.445 00:27:07.030

As I understand. they came to look for your father but

00:27:07.030 00:27:10.495

did they destroy anything at home when they didn't find him?

00:27:10.495 00:27:15.460

No. Nothing. What I

00:27:15.460 00:27:20.305

was told is that we did not stay in the apartment anymore that we had lived in.

00:27:20.305 00:27:25.740

For once. my father decided not to follow the law because if you moved apartments.

00:27:25.740 00:27:28.330

you had to register with the police.

00:27:28.940 00:27:32.530

By then he said thank you. [Foreign language]

00:27:32.530 00:27:42.470

Do you know what kind of relationships your parents had with non-Jewish people in Berlin?

00:27:42.470 00:27:46.920

Yes. There was a policeman who lived in

00:27:46.920 00:27:53.200

the same building we did. and they were very friendly with them.

00:27:53.200 00:27:58.950

One time. my parents went up to their apartment and there was a big picture of Hitler.

00:27:58.950 00:28:03.560

The policeman saw the reaction.

00:28:03.560 00:28:06.680

the shock of seeing the picture. and he said.

00:28:06.680 00:28:08.800

"It means absolutely nothing.

00:28:08.800 00:28:12.620

it's just that I have to have it."

00:28:12.620 00:28:16.940

He had it. they had children the same age as my brother and I.

00:28:16.940 00:28:23.035

The story I was told that I was in a baby carriage sleeping and

00:28:23.035 00:28:30.930

the policeman's daughter was making a lot of noise and my brother hit her over the head.

00:28:30.930 00:28:36.480

The parents said. "That's what children do. No problems."

00:28:39.330 00:28:46.090

Did your parents talk about antisemitism in Berlin?

00:28:46.090 00:28:50.700

Well. they eventually were telling us what was happening in Berlin.

00:28:50.700 00:28:52.630

that the Jews couldn't do this.

00:28:52.630 00:28:55.940

couldn't do that. and couldn't do anything.

00:28:57.570 00:29:01.785

Do you know if you happened to see.

00:29:01.785 00:29:03.260

even if you don't remember.

00:29:03.260 00:29:06.610

but maybe you were with your mother. or your father.

00:29:06.610 00:29:11.590

or anyone else during the Nazi parade.

00:29:11.590 00:29:15.205

or rally. or something like that?

00:29:15.205 00:29:18.340

I have no memories of any of those things.

00:29:18.340 00:29:21.565

Your parents didn't talk about it?

00:29:21.565 00:29:25.160

Not particularly. no. not that.

00:29:25.440 00:29:33.845

So. you succeeded to

00:29:33.845 00:29:40.600

run away from Germany immediately after the Kristallnacht?

00:29:40.600 00:29:41.530

Um-um.

00:29:41.530 00:29:47.110

By the way. I suppose that your parents had German citizenship-

00:29:47.110 00:29:47.440

Yes.

00:29:47.440 00:29:49.045

-before it was taken away.

00:29:49.045 00:29:49.660

Yes. Yes.

00:29:49.660 00:29:53.785

They weren't considered Polish citizens.

00:29:53.785 00:29:57.100

No. We had German citizenship.

00:29:57.100 00:29:59.545

My aunt who left.

00:29:59.545 00:30:02.080

she was married to a man who was born in Berlin.

00:30:02.080 00:30:04.525

but had Polish citizenship.

00:30:04.525 00:30:06.920

So. he was kicked out.

00:30:08.190 00:30:11.395

He was deported to Bonchon?

00:30:11.395 00:30:16.210

No. actually they ended up going to New York.

00:30:16.210 00:30:19.675

You said that they went five-

00:30:19.675 00:30:20.770

Months earlier. Yes.

00:30:20.770 00:30:25.435

-months before you. So. it was before the Bonchon deportation?

00:30:25.435 00:30:26.800

Um-um.

00:30:26.800 00:30:38.215

So. going by train

00:30:38.215 00:30:44.000

to Jenova with no problems on the border.

00:30:47.650 00:30:52.455

As we assume. it was a nice adventure for you.

00:30:52.455 00:30:57.170

this journey to Shanghai.

00:30:57.170 00:30:59.030

How long did it take?

00:30:59.030 00:31:01.215

I believe. five weeks.

00:31:01.215 00:31:07.460

Which number of conditions?

00:31:07.460 00:31:09.590

We got there.

00:31:09.590 00:31:16.815

But. you don't think that your parents had a trauma or something from the journey?

00:31:16.815 00:31:18.270

No.

00:31:18.270 00:31:22.180

Because I don't think they knew what they were getting into.

00:31:22.180 00:31:29.480

I think. basically the Europeans did not know anything about Shanghai. About China.

00:31:29.480 00:31:36.145

But. I mean the sailing itself was okay.

00:31:36.145 00:31:38.310

The sailing itself was okay.

00:31:38.310 00:31:41.500

We went through the Suez Canal.

00:31:43.030 00:31:46.465

and we were stopped in Bombay.

00:31:46.465 00:31:51.305

and other places. Manila.

00:31:51.305 00:31:58.765

I suppose that because your parents went immediately after the Kristallnacht.

00:31:58.765 00:32:04.925

they already really understood what's going on in Germany.

00:32:04.925 00:32:11.430

and they felt lucky to be able to escape from Germany.

00:32:11.430 00:32:17.190

So. even if Shanghai wasn't what they were expecting.

00:32:17.190 00:32:20.460

still it wasn't Berlin.

00:32:20.460 00:32:23.870

It wasn't Germany anymore.

00:32:23.870 00:32:28.330

So. you arrive to Shanghai.

00:32:28.330 00:32:34.970

which was under a Japanese regime.

00:32:36.090 00:32:39.230

That's a yes and no.

00:32:40.050 00:32:44.890

The Japanese word. "De facto" But.

00:32:44.890 00:32:48.455

not the jury because the Europeans were still the jury.

00:32:48.455 00:32:57.630

Yes. but officially. it was between the

00:32:57.630 00:33:06.900

Japanese and the other countries that had status like Great Britain. America-

00:33:06.900 00:33:08.010

America and France.

00:33:08.010 00:33:17.365

-and so on. We are talking about you.

00:33:17.365 00:33:20.080

your family as refugees.

00:33:20.080 00:33:23.490

usually went to Hongkew.

00:33:23.490 00:33:23.690

Yes. yes.

00:33:23.690 00:33:28.180

I think it was the name of the quarter of the city which

00:33:28.180 00:33:33.419

wasn't the best of the city areas.

00:33:33.419 00:33:38.820

but all the Jewish refugees were there.

00:33:38.820 00:33:40.790

Yes. Started out there.

00:33:40.790 00:33:45.225

Do you remember the arriving to Shanghai?

00:33:45.225 00:33:47.045

Not the arrival.

00:33:47.045 00:33:49.680

No. I have no recollections of that.

00:33:49.680 00:33:52.155

specifics recollections of that.

00:33:52.155 00:33:58.445

Because I suppose it was nothing like anything you knew before.

00:33:58.445 00:34:03.465

No. The way my parents explained it is that.

00:34:03.465 00:34:10.440

they saw the buildings on the Bund which were the modern European buildings.

00:34:10.440 00:34:16.025

They saw just Chinese milling around. and the poverty.

00:34:16.025 00:34:17.480

and then Hongkew was

00:34:17.480 00:34:22.245

the beautiful area where the Chinese and the Japanese fought the hardest.

00:34:22.245 00:34:26.865

and was the worst condition of Shanghai.

00:34:26.865 00:34:29.990

But. fortunately we didn't stay there very long.

00:34:29.990 00:34:32.530

But you began there?

00:34:32.530 00:34:33.950

We began there. Yes.

00:34:33.950 00:34:37.190

And you had the help of the Jewish community?

00:34:37.190 00:34:37.890

Yes.

00:34:37.890 00:34:38.375

At the beginning?

00:34:38.375 00:34:45.040

Yes. Yeah. They had organized the- we were one of the early ships that came and they had

00:34:45.040 00:34:53.330

organized help for that to find some room and board in Hongkew.

00:34:53.820 00:34:56.000

As I say fortunately.

00:34:56.000 00:34:57.940

we did not stay there long.

00:34:57.940 00:35:02.995

Do you remember anything about the early time in Hongkew?

00:35:02.995 00:35:06.250

The nuts. but not that. No.

00:35:06.250 00:35:11.700

What you know is that you were there for a short time and then what happened?

00:35:11.700 00:35:15.890

We moved to what was known as the French Concession.

00:35:15.890 00:35:24.300

My mother found work and we were able to find an apartment and we moved.

00:35:25.630 00:35:33.665

Then. life was reasonably good for a number of years.

00:35:33.665 00:35:39.505

But yet. we're talking about a cultural shock.

00:35:39.505 00:35:42.520

A cultural shock. Yes.

00:35:44.160 00:35:51.070

First. instantly you become refugees?

00:35:51.070 00:35:53.160

You were not refugees before.

00:35:53.160 00:36:02.605

You become refugees in a completely different culture place.

00:36:02.605 00:36:05.270

Everything was different.

00:36:05.270 00:36:09.850

But. I understand that you were in the European.

00:36:09.850 00:36:12.430

one of the European colonies.

00:36:12.430 00:36:14.050

the French colony there-

00:36:14.050 00:36:14.530

Yes.

00:36:14.530 00:36:16.500

-which was. I suppose.

00:36:16.500 00:36:21.020

a little bit better than the other places?

00:36:21.020 00:36:28.250

More than a little. French Concession was considered the best concession there.

00:36:30.730 00:36:34.595

Did you go to kindergarten there?

00:36:34.595 00:36:36.930

I went to kindergarten there.

00:36:36.930 00:36:39.110

Which one? Not Chinese of course.

00:36:39.110 00:36:43.600

No. not Chinese. associated with Shanghai Jewish school.

00:36:43.600 00:36:48.480

Which was a Sephardi school that was built by Sephardis. Sephardi Jews.

00:36:48.480 00:36:49.740

What language was there?

00:36:49.740 00:36:52.750

The language was English.

00:36:54.560 00:36:58.450

That means that you were.

00:36:58.450 00:37:01.325

how can I say it.

00:37:01.325 00:37:03.490

part of the high society?

00:37:03.490 00:37:09.700

The Jewish High Society in Shanghai because the Sephardi community was

00:37:09.700 00:37:15.770

the smallest community but it was really the high society.

00:37:15.770 00:37:17.905

We were not of that class.

00:37:17.905 00:37:22.025

Especially the community from Baghdad.

00:37:22.025 00:37:23.750

Yes the Baghdads.

00:37:23.750 00:37:25.895

We weren't of that class.

00:37:25.895 00:37:26.750

But you went-.

00:37:26.750 00:37:27.390

Was that was-.

00:37:27.390 00:37:29.275

But you went to school with them?

00:37:29.275 00:37:32.990

No. they didn't send their children to that school. They built a school.

00:37:32.990 00:37:35.510

I thought it was their school. Okay.

00:37:35.510 00:37:39.640

No. Actually. it was the Russian Jews who sent

00:37:39.640 00:37:44.910

their children to that school and then the Europeans too.

00:37:45.010 00:37:51.125

But the Baghdadi Jews. the Cadres-.

00:37:51.125 00:37:51.920

Sysoon.

00:37:51.920 00:37:53.970

Hyduns. sysoon.

00:37:53.970 00:37:56.180

We weren't of that class.

00:37:56.180 00:37:58.595

They had a private school?

00:37:58.595 00:38:00.510

They had everything.

00:38:00.510 00:38:06.710

So. you went to that kindergarden.

00:38:06.710 00:38:08.615

you had to learn English?

00:38:08.615 00:38:09.360

Yes.

00:38:09.360 00:38:11.450

I suppose it was at that age it's not a problem?

00:38:11.450 00:38:12.590

Not a problem.

00:38:12.590 00:38:16.205

Your mother also going to the school?

00:38:16.205 00:38:17.990

Yes. she also went to that.

00:38:17.990 00:38:22.850

Your mother is working as a tailor and your father?

00:38:22.850 00:38:28.220

Is unfortunately getting all of the diseases one gets in Shanghai.

00:38:28.220 00:38:31.740

He was sick a lot of the time.

00:38:32.050 00:38:35.970

Contagious diseases?

00:38:35.970 00:38:44.365

Some of them were and some weren't but he was unfortunately.

00:38:44.365 00:38:46.640

most of the time in Shanghai.

00:38:46.640 00:38:50.495

he tried to do various things some successively and some not.

00:38:50.495 00:38:55.255

But it was primarily my mother who supported the family.

00:38:55.255 00:39:00.935

He was most of the time in a hospital or at home?

00:39:00.935 00:39:02.660

No. he was in the hospital.

00:39:02.660 00:39:07.740

he was at home and it was both.

00:39:08.460 00:39:12.700

Diseases like typhoid et cetera?

00:39:12.700 00:39:19.145

Yes. typhoid and those are the nice diseases one gets in the area.

00:39:19.145 00:39:26.245

So. your parents tried to keep you away from your father?

00:39:26.245 00:39:32.350

No. not necessarily but we were

00:39:32.350 00:39:39.090

careful and then life continued.

00:39:39.090 00:39:45.570

But when he was not sick what did he try to do?

00:39:53.350 00:39:58.070

He tried selling hats.

00:39:58.070 00:40:02.500

but that didn't turn out to be very well.

00:40:02.500 00:40:08.740

He tried tailoring but he wasn't a very good tailor.

00:40:08.740 00:40:13.250

He went in business with somebody else and that

00:40:13.250 00:40:18.730

didn't work out because one day he came to where the business was and it was empty.

00:40:18.730 00:40:21.690

The partner was Jewish?

00:40:21.690 00:40:26.310

The partner was Jewish but he was also a [Foreign language].

00:40:28.420 00:40:32.520

So. the main provider was your mother?

00:40:32.520 00:40:33.960

The main provider was my mother.

00:40:33.960 00:40:38.040

You said that she had her own saloon?

00:40:38.040 00:40:42.920

Not at first. She started out with some of

00:40:42.920 00:40:49.900

the better places in Shanghai that had the customers including the Baghdadis.

00:40:49.900 00:40:51.695

that type of customer.

00:40:51.695 00:40:54.860

There was a lot of money in Shanghai.

00:40:55.240 00:41:03.555

Because there were like 100.000 or something like that of foreigners?

00:41:03.555 00:41:04.655

Yes. something like that.

00:41:04.655 00:41:08.885

Which means that they had enough money to spend on quality-.

00:41:08.885 00:41:10.580

Well. you had Indians-.

00:41:10.580 00:41:12.080

Clothes?

00:41:12.080 00:41:22.890

That's correct. you had Indian princesses and a lot of people with money to spend.

00:41:23.800 00:41:29.350

So. she worked there and then she became independent?

00:41:29.350 00:41:32.435

She worked there and then she became independent.

00:41:32.435 00:41:35.445

It was still okay when she was independent?

00:41:35.445 00:41:41.965

Yes. she got a reputation of being known and doing quality work.

00:41:41.965 00:41:44.810

You said women clothes. right?

00:41:44.810 00:41:46.015

Yes. women clothing.

00:41:46.015 00:41:51.960

But you were still very young you and your mother so.

00:41:51.960 00:41:55.185

who took care of you when your mother was working?

00:41:55.185 00:41:56.920

We had an Ama.

00:41:56.920 00:42:04.390

the Chinese woman who was around. and then also we were left alone.

00:42:04.430 00:42:09.090

Because I suppose if your mother was the main provider.

00:42:09.090 00:42:11.340

she had to work for longer hours?

00:42:11.340 00:42:18.990

She did work for long hours and had to travel to see some of the customers.

00:42:18.990 00:42:21.190

they didn't all come to her.

00:42:22.220 00:42:25.505

But you're alone now you became responsible.

00:42:25.505 00:42:29.315

She had help?

00:42:29.315 00:42:29.750

Yes.

00:42:29.750 00:42:29.900

At work?

00:42:29.900 00:42:36.990

She had Chinese people

00:42:36.990 00:42:41.405

working for her. tailors and-.

00:42:41.405 00:42:42.640

Women?

00:42:42.640 00:42:49.730

Men. There was one where two thumbs. six finger.

00:42:50.200 00:42:57.135

Did you and your mother or your parents did you learn any Chinese at that time?

00:42:57.135 00:43:00.150

Yes. we did.

00:43:00.150 00:43:02.360

I can still swear to you.

00:43:02.360 00:43:06.605

I wouldn't but at that time.

00:43:06.605 00:43:13.860

you had to pick up Chinese from the streets so you learnt some of that.

00:43:14.350 00:43:18.810

How did they treat you. the Chinese?

00:43:19.480 00:43:29.525

Well. until 1942. we were [Foreign language]. which meant foreigner.

00:43:29.525 00:43:31.760

You were part of that or foreigners?

00:43:31.760 00:43:32.435

We were foreigners.

00:43:32.435 00:43:33.650

They didn't make-.

00:43:33.650 00:43:35.480

They didn't know. they didn't know that-.

00:43:35.480 00:43:36.530

A distinction between Jews and non-Jews?

00:43:36.530 00:43:39.245

They didn't know there was a big foreigner.

00:43:39.245 00:43:40.470

you were just a foreigner.

00:43:40.470 00:43:44.940

So in that respect.

00:43:44.940 00:43:47.795

there was no discrimination.

00:43:47.795 00:43:52.760

The other as we called them the foreigners.

00:43:52.760 00:43:54.290

how did they treat you?

00:43:54.290 00:43:59.245

We didn't associate too much with other foreigners.

00:43:59.245 00:44:02.800

the ones we associated with were our schoolmates.

00:44:02.800 00:44:04.600

we went to the same school.

00:44:04.600 00:44:06.310

That was a Jewish school?

00:44:06.310 00:44:07.120

A Jewish school.

00:44:07.120 00:44:10.090

But you said you lived in

00:44:10.090 00:44:16.220

the French area I suppose there were mostly French people there?

00:44:16.220 00:44:17.045

No.

00:44:17.045 00:44:18.710

Not necessarily Jews.

00:44:18.710 00:44:21.540

No they were in the area.

00:44:21.540 00:44:23.650

you had a good mixture.

00:44:25.120 00:44:28.905

So it wasn't an exclusive French area.

00:44:28.905 00:44:32.050

If there was. one we did not live there.

00:44:33.370 00:44:38.870

But were there many Jews there in that area?

00:44:39.860 00:44:45.560

There were some that we were friendly with and that's all you concerned yourself with.

00:44:45.560 00:44:48.480

The others. a small circle of friends.

00:44:48.480 00:44:55.295

At that time. did you have any contact to the family in Germany?

00:44:55.295 00:45:03.290

We were able to get some mail and some of the mail was censored.

00:45:03.460 00:45:07.975

Very big dark black line through it.

00:45:07.975 00:45:11.610

Especially when they were indicating where they were heading

00:45:11.610 00:45:17.450

for and then there was a great period of silence.

00:45:17.450 00:45:21.050

Did they try to give any hints?

00:45:21.050 00:45:21.680

They did.

00:45:21.680 00:45:25.310

That the censor won't understand?

00:45:25.310 00:45:28.910

No. The censor just blocked out.

00:45:28.910 00:45:32.130

if it didn't understand it. it just blocked it out.

00:45:33.340 00:45:39.095

I know that people used to write something like.

00:45:39.095 00:45:44.105

"I think I'm going to meet for instance.

00:45:44.105 00:45:46.895

my mother next week."

00:45:46.895 00:45:55.200

Since you know that his mother is already dead so you could understand what he means.

00:45:55.200 00:45:59.725

From the letters that I have seen and that I have read.

00:45:59.725 00:46:02.500

I saw nothing like that at all.

00:46:02.800 00:46:10.850

At that time in Germany were your grandparents?

00:46:10.850 00:46:14.025

Yes. my blood no. my-.

00:46:14.025 00:46:16.620

One grandfather you said died in 36?

00:46:16.620 00:46:17.335

That's right.

00:46:17.335 00:46:20.380

So. you had a grandfather and two grandmothers?

00:46:20.380 00:46:20.965

Yes. that's correct.

00:46:20.965 00:46:22.090

Your-.

00:46:22.090 00:46:22.990

My aunts.

00:46:22.990 00:46:26.050

Father's sister was-.

00:46:26.050 00:46:27.270

In New York.

00:46:27.270 00:46:31.520

Already in America and your mother's brothers?

00:46:31.520 00:46:32.690

No. my mother's sisters-.

00:46:32.690 00:46:33.400

Sisters?

00:46:33.400 00:46:39.210

Were in Germany. as were cousins and other relatives.

00:46:40.540 00:46:46.935

Did you try to send them something from Shanghai?

00:46:46.935 00:46:55.230

Only mail that I'm aware of. little packages.

00:46:58.010 00:47:01.050

You couldn't send them money?

00:47:01.050 00:47:03.390

No. I couldn't send money.

00:47:04.360 00:47:11.870

Did you have enough money for yourselves?

00:47:11.870 00:47:14.180

Fortunately yes.

00:47:14.180 00:47:20.565

We were not part of half of the community

00:47:20.565 00:47:27.770

of refugees who came that were dependent on the generosity of others.

00:47:31.310 00:47:40.160

Yet I suppose that you didn't see your mother very much at the time? She was busy.

00:47:40.160 00:47:43.435

Did not. but that was the normal in our house.

00:47:43.435 00:47:45.710

She didn't work at home.

00:47:45.710 00:47:47.440

She had a special place.

00:47:47.440 00:47:48.715

She had a place to work.

00:47:48.715 00:47:50.055

She didn't work at home. but.

00:47:50.055 00:47:52.995

Was it walking distance?

00:47:52.995 00:47:56.530

If it was. I don't remember.

00:47:56.690 00:48:02.370

Do you remember any Jewish holidays in Shanghai?

00:48:02.370 00:48:05.605

Yes. all of them they were celebrated.

00:48:05.605 00:48:10.805

Did you have for instance. matzahs for Passover?

00:48:10.805 00:48:16.770

Yes. we did. We had matzahs.

00:48:16.840 00:48:21.110

After the Mirror came. they baked matzahs.

00:48:21.110 00:48:28.020

but you've got to divide the period before the war and then after.

00:48:28.020 00:48:30.915

Yeah. we are talking till 42. Yes. till February '42.

00:48:30.915 00:48:36.490

Yeah. until early 42. we were matzahs.

00:48:39.230 00:48:41.985

We knew we were Jewish.

00:48:41.985 00:48:44.475

We knew when there was the Antif.

00:48:44.475 00:48:47.750

You went to a synagogue?

00:48:47.750 00:48:54.770

Actually. interesting enough is I don't remember specifically while we

00:48:54.770 00:49:01.625

were before 1943 that we went to a synagogue.

00:49:01.625 00:49:04.010

But from stories I've heard.

00:49:04.010 00:49:06.040

I know we must have.

00:49:06.980 00:49:10.230

You felt comfortable there?

00:49:10.230 00:49:13.800

You could walk on the street by yourself and?

00:49:13.800 00:49:16.935

I had absolutely no basis of comparison.

00:49:16.935 00:49:18.920

But you felt confident?

00:49:18.920 00:49:22.680

Yes. As a child.

00:49:22.680 00:49:27.560

then as you're growing you feel confident and you don't worry about things.

00:49:27.560 00:49:31.400

You could go by yourself on the street?

00:49:31.400 00:49:34.035

Yes. you could.

00:49:34.035 00:49:37.730

It was perfectly safe unless you ran into

00:49:37.730 00:49:40.200

other young Chinese then they

00:49:40.200 00:49:43.750

would call their friends and then you have children or children.

00:49:47.400 00:49:50.005

As you described it.

00:49:50.005 00:49:53.270

it sounds like a nice time.

00:49:53.270 00:49:56.610

Yes. For us. it was a normal time.

00:49:56.610 00:50:04.470

Nothing was lacking. we can say you had enough food.

00:50:04.470 00:50:11.440

enough clothes. toys. I suppose you had.

00:50:11.930 00:50:14.290

Pardon me.

00:50:15.110 00:50:19.560

You had toys. you had to maybe games.

00:50:19.560 00:50:26.415

you had everything that a child your age used to have at that time?

00:50:26.415 00:50:28.875

Yes. I believe we did.

00:50:28.875 00:50:30.990

You didn't lack anything?

00:50:30.990 00:50:32.790

No. we didn't lack anything.

00:50:32.790 00:50:36.240

Only thing is I know I was very young and

00:50:36.240 00:50:41.120

my mother had taught me to sew and I had to help her occasionally.

00:50:41.120 00:50:42.950

Your brother too?

00:50:42.950 00:50:43.715

No.

00:50:43.715 00:50:44.110

How come?

00:50:44.110 00:50:50.430

My brother was smart because he decided be [inaudible] so she wouldn't use them.

00:50:50.430 00:50:53.890

I wasn't smart enough to do that.

00:50:54.620 00:51:02.430

For instance. you went to a kindergarten and you said that your brother went to school.

00:51:02.430 00:51:04.155

it was in the same complex.

00:51:04.155 00:51:04.590

Yes.

00:51:04.590 00:51:06.870

So. you went together every morning.

00:51:06.870 00:51:08.890

We would go together.

00:51:09.380 00:51:12.855

You had a sandwich.

00:51:12.855 00:51:16.870

you were not hungry. nothing like that.

00:51:17.460 00:51:21.260

Yes. You had something to eat.

00:51:21.260 00:51:26.145

Whether as a child you continue to be hungry all the time.

00:51:26.145 00:51:29.395

it's hard to say. but.

00:51:29.395 00:51:32.820

How did you feel about the Chinese food?

00:51:32.820 00:51:34.595

We didn't eat Chinese food.

00:51:34.595 00:51:35.960

Nothing?

00:51:35.960 00:51:40.030

Never ate chopsticks in China.

00:51:41.480 00:51:43.620

How come?

00:51:43.620 00:51:47.700

We were Europeans. we ate what we knew.

00:51:47.700 00:51:51.020

But you know when you walk on the streets.

00:51:51.020 00:51:53.725

On the streets. we did buy things.

00:51:53.725 00:51:56.760

We weren't supposed to. but we did.

00:51:59.460 00:52:03.730

We were told. "Don't drink the water."

00:52:03.730 00:52:06.910

Eventually as children. we drank the water.

00:52:07.290 00:52:10.820

All these things. but that's what children do.

00:52:10.820 00:52:15.840

You had a nice apartment in the French area?

00:52:15.840 00:52:23.170

As I remember it. it was adequate.

00:52:23.780 00:52:27.520

It had up two or three rooms.

00:52:28.520 00:52:32.440

So. it was nice in that respect.

00:52:33.210 00:52:36.865

Do you remember any of the neighbors?

00:52:36.865 00:52:42.645

No. None within the immediate area.

00:52:42.645 00:52:45.105

Close by I had a friend.

00:52:45.105 00:52:53.410

but not within the complex where we lived.

00:52:57.460 00:53:04.410

So. life is we can say good and I suppose you consider

00:53:04.410 00:53:11.194

yourselves lucky at the time that you were not in Germany because.

00:53:11.194 00:53:16.440

of course. the war broke out in September '39 when you

00:53:16.440 00:53:21.630

were already in Shanghai and the borders were closed.

00:53:21.630 00:53:25.445

So I suppose you felt lucky.

00:53:25.445 00:53:32.130

and then comes December '41.

00:53:32.130 00:53:35.825

Is there any memories before '41.

00:53:35.825 00:53:39.440

something that we didn't mention about your life in Shanghai?

00:53:39.440 00:53:43.310

Well in December of 1939.

00:53:43.310 00:53:52.070

I had an operation on my leg because I had a needle in my knee because I was sewing.

00:53:52.070 00:53:52.710

From the sewing?

00:53:52.710 00:53:55.795

I was sewing. I had to go the bathroom.

00:53:55.795 00:53:58.490

put the needle on the sofa.

00:53:58.490 00:54:02.245

came back and knelt on the sofa.

00:54:02.245 00:54:06.015

For 10 days nobody believed me.

00:54:06.015 00:54:09.390

Who ever heard of a needle in your knee?

00:54:09.390 00:54:12.465

We went to the doctor. they examined.

00:54:12.465 00:54:14.260

took blood tests and said.

00:54:14.260 00:54:18.190

"We're going to operate now. not tomorrow."

00:54:18.190 00:54:21.795

So. I went to the general hospital.

00:54:21.795 00:54:24.590

He was a doctor from Germany?

00:54:24.590 00:54:26.205

A doctor from Germany.

00:54:26.205 00:54:30.830

Dr. Hans Flatow. a surgeon.

00:54:32.070 00:54:40.150

Went to the general hospital which was run by American nuns.

00:54:41.150 00:54:44.565

I was operated on my leg.

00:54:44.565 00:54:49.570

He didn't guarantee that I wouldn't limp.

00:54:52.550 00:54:57.630

He kept a book of all the surgeries and then on my page was a needle.

00:54:57.630 00:55:01.415

We knew him and I got to see that.

00:55:01.415 00:55:07.510

But fortunately. he did a good job and I had no after-effects.

00:55:09.840 00:55:14.320

But interesting enough while I was at that hospital.

00:55:14.320 00:55:16.810

there was a cross over each bed.

00:55:16.810 00:55:23.820

and I said that I would not sleep under a false god.

00:55:23.820 00:55:26.250

At the age of five?

00:55:26.250 00:55:28.230

At the age of five.

00:55:28.230 00:55:30.305

I made a fuss about it.

00:55:30.305 00:55:32.300

Impressing.

00:55:34.060 00:55:40.480

Mother superior said. "Take the cross down."

00:55:44.080 00:55:45.780

So. you. we were-

00:55:45.780 00:55:46.960

It's really impressive-

00:55:46.960 00:55:47.080

Well.

00:55:47.080 00:55:48.240

That at the age of five.

00:55:48.240 00:55:49.790

you already knew the-

00:55:49.790 00:55:50.800

That we were Jewish.

00:55:50.800 00:55:53.360

-difference and you insisted on-

00:55:53.550 00:55:57.320

When you look back on it. it was chutzpah.

00:55:58.170 00:56:01.420

But. as a child you couldn't understand it?

00:56:01.420 00:56:07.060

No. No. but. if you don't have chutzpah and you're Jewish. something is wrong.

00:56:07.060 00:56:09.895

Could you keep kosher in Shanghai?

00:56:09.895 00:56:11.915

We did. We did.

00:56:11.915 00:56:17.020

That meant that meat was something you had on Yontef.

00:56:17.480 00:56:22.075

Chicken. you had. you used to buy a little chick.

00:56:22.075 00:56:23.940

feed it for a couple of months.

00:56:23.940 00:56:25.850

take it to the sharfet.

00:56:25.850 00:56:29.065

and then it became your food.

00:56:29.065 00:56:33.255

So. most of the time. you ate fish?

00:56:33.255 00:56:38.770

We ate fish. or cheeses. or something like that.

00:56:40.100 00:56:45.550

Occasionally. you would get what's known as cold cuts.

00:56:45.860 00:56:49.305

salamis. light stuff. and stuff.

00:56:49.305 00:56:50.340

And yet. no-

00:56:50.340 00:56:51.675

But. things changed.

00:56:51.675 00:56:52.725

No Chinese food?

00:56:52.725 00:56:54.645

No Chinese food.

00:56:54.645 00:56:56.990

Not even Chinese cooking?

00:56:56.990 00:56:59.920

Not even. No. No.

00:56:59.920 00:57:02.340

Did your mother cook?

00:57:02.340 00:57:03.930

Yes. well. my mother-

00:57:03.930 00:57:04.780

I don't think she had the time for that.

00:57:04.780 00:57:07.810

My mother cooked. She took the time and she taught us

00:57:07.810 00:57:11.490

to do and told us what we want. what she wanted.

00:57:11.490 00:57:16.455

Very often. we would have sandwiches in the evening.

00:57:16.455 00:57:18.710

and either at the kindergarten.

00:57:18.710 00:57:20.485

or when I went to the school.

00:57:20.485 00:57:22.790

they would serve lunch.

00:57:24.890 00:57:31.365

Did you have to help your father because he was sick. and weak. and-

00:57:31.365 00:57:38.680

We did. but that actually was more in the. after 1943.

00:57:39.140 00:57:44.265

But. he became sick almost when-

00:57:44.265 00:57:44.790

Quite early.

00:57:44.790 00:57:47.175

You arrived to China?

00:57:47.175 00:57:48.940

Yes. quite early on.

00:57:48.940 00:57:52.230

You know. first. one thing. then another.

00:57:52.250 00:57:55.470

When you are weak from one thing.

00:57:55.470 00:57:57.345

it's easy to get the other thing?

00:57:57.345 00:58:04.020

Yes. In 1943.

00:58:04.020 00:58:08.690

in March of 1943.

00:58:08.690 00:58:10.835

I broke both my arms.

00:58:10.835 00:58:13.330

and when my parents came home.

00:58:13.330 00:58:15.505

our family doctor was there.

00:58:15.505 00:58:18.790

and they left me because he fainted.

00:58:18.790 00:58:21.725

My father fainted when he saw that.

00:58:21.725 00:58:23.280

Okay. we get to-

00:58:23.280 00:58:23.480

It's going too ahead.

00:58:23.480 00:58:27.630

To '43. you were very talented.

00:58:27.630 00:58:29.950

I understand.

00:58:31.790 00:58:37.505

We're talking about December of '41 now.

00:58:37.505 00:58:43.845

which means when Japan with America-

00:58:43.845 00:58:45.150

Started. yes.

00:58:45.150 00:58:50.115

Starting the war. Pearl Harbor. etc.

00:58:50.115 00:58:52.905

What stands out most is that the French

00:58:52.905 00:58:57.120

decided to blow up a couple of ships that were in the harbor.

00:58:58.070 00:59:04.380

On December 7th. about 7:00 on the 8th. they blew them up.

00:59:04.380 00:59:08.520

They didn't want them to be in the hands of Japanese.

00:59:08.930 00:59:14.985

You see. that's when the Japanese took over completely.

00:59:14.985 00:59:18.955

So. you felt it immediately?

00:59:18.955 00:59:20.320

We felt it immediately.

00:59:20.320 00:59:22.250

Its not that it was something in a distance.

00:59:22.250 00:59:23.850

It was above you?

00:59:23.850 00:59:25.700

It was there.

00:59:26.090 00:59:35.145

How was it for you when it becomes completely Japanese regime with.

00:59:35.145 00:59:40.625

I don't know. a kind of a puppet Chinese government. but-

00:59:40.625 00:59:43.030

There was not. there was no Chinese.

00:59:43.030 00:59:45.110

Really it was a Japanese regime.

00:59:45.110 00:59:47.320

There was no Chinese government.

00:59:47.320 00:59:50.035

The Japanese were the occupiers.

00:59:50.035 00:59:54.290

In 1942. nothing changed.

00:59:57.230 00:59:59.880

You had to move to Hongkew?

00:59:59.880 01:00:02.690

No. No. not in 1942.

01:00:02.690 01:00:08.320

On May 16th. 1943-

01:00:08.320 01:00:11.055

You have something with May 16?

01:00:11.055 01:00:13.530

Yeah.

01:00:13.530 01:00:15.600

The edict came out in about February.

01:00:15.600 01:00:19.125

that effective May 16th. 1943.

01:00:19.125 01:00:25.005

all refugees who came to Shanghai after 1937.

01:00:25.005 01:00:26.910

had to move to Hongkew.

01:00:26.910 01:00:29.400

which became the Hongkew ghetto.

01:00:29.400 01:00:36.325

So. at first. when there is Japanese regime and there is war with America.

01:00:36.325 01:00:44.960

maybe you didn't feel it so much because your mother was a good provider.

01:00:44.960 01:00:53.740

but the Jews that got help from the joint. from organizations-

01:00:53.740 01:00:54.345

Oh. they felt it.

01:00:54.345 01:00:57.970

-in America. they couldn't get it any more.

01:00:57.970 01:01:03.245

So. the situation there became more and more difficult.

01:01:03.245 01:01:05.800

but for you. you didn't feel it?

01:01:05.800 01:01:07.750

No. At that point in time.

01:01:07.750 01:01:10.915

we did not particularly have any.

01:01:10.915 01:01:12.855

it had no effect on us.

01:01:12.855 01:01:14.235

You went to school?

01:01:14.235 01:01:15.530

Kept on going to school.

01:01:15.530 01:01:18.085

At that time you're already.

01:01:18.085 01:01:20.830

it wasn't a kindergarten anymore.

01:01:20.830 01:01:20.990

No.

01:01:20.990 01:01:22.565

It's a school?

01:01:22.565 01:01:25.035

You had to pay for this school?

01:01:25.035 01:01:26.280

Yes.

01:01:26.280 01:01:28.110

A lot?

01:01:28.110 01:01:30.160

Well. you had to pay.

01:01:30.160 01:01:34.120

Anything you had to pay was a lot. extra expenses.

01:01:34.120 01:01:38.970

But. my parents decided that we should get a good education.

01:01:38.970 01:01:44.200

and that offered the best education we could get.

01:01:44.420 01:01:51.570

Did you read any Jewish newspapers in Shanghai?

01:01:51.570 01:01:53.450

At home. you were still young.

01:01:53.450 01:01:56.800

but the others in the family?

01:01:56.800 01:02:00.640

We did read newspapers and particularly in Hongkew.

01:02:00.640 01:02:03.870

I taught myself how to read German.

01:02:03.870 01:02:08.700

and read a German newspaper.

01:02:08.700 01:02:11.760

Read it in English also.

01:02:11.760 01:02:14.130

They had English newspapers.

01:02:14.130 01:02:19.790

At that time. you spoke German at home and English at school?

01:02:19.790 01:02:21.130

That is correct.

01:02:21.130 01:02:24.370

With your brother. did you speak German or English?

01:02:24.370 01:02:25.400

Both.

01:02:25.400 01:02:26.905

Combined?

01:02:26.905 01:02:27.770

Probably.

01:02:27.770 01:02:28.955

That means that-

01:02:28.955 01:02:30.100

Germlish.

01:02:30.100 01:02:34.100

That part of the sentence was German and part of it was English?

01:02:34.100 01:02:37.540

Yes. If you listen to my wife and I speak.

01:02:37.540 01:02:40.150

you'll see the same thing happen.

01:02:40.150 01:02:42.380

Also German with English?

01:02:42.380 01:02:44.770

Yeah. Germlish.

01:02:54.100 01:03:01.820

So. we are on February '42 and you say that for you.

01:03:01.820 01:03:04.685

there is not a big difference.

01:03:04.685 01:03:08.270

You continue to go to the private school.

01:03:08.270 01:03:09.410

It was a good one.

01:03:09.410 01:03:12.510

You have everything you need.

01:03:14.710 01:03:19.400

You really don't feel any difference when you walk on

01:03:19.400 01:03:23.420

the street and you see a Japanese soldier?

01:03:23.420 01:03:24.905

You're not afraid of him?

01:03:24.905 01:03:31.440

Well. you see them and they're around.

01:03:34.720 01:03:36.740

You're a foreign face.

01:03:36.740 01:03:38.960

they're not particularly friendly.

01:03:38.960 01:03:41.455

But at that point in time.

01:03:41.455 01:03:49.730

they're part of the Axis so you speak German loudly.

01:03:49.730 01:03:58.145

But what I don't understand is for the Japanese.

01:03:58.145 01:04:07.385

they treated the German Jews as they called in German [Foreign language].

01:04:07.385 01:04:10.655

Yeah. Stateless.

01:04:10.655 01:04:16.350

Yes. As far as I know.

01:04:16.480 01:04:21.485

they forced them to go to Hongkew.

01:04:21.485 01:04:23.450

Not till 43.

01:04:23.450 01:04:25.520

You say that you stayed at home.

01:04:25.520 01:04:34.790

Yes. The requirement to go into Hongkew did not take effect until May 16th.1943.

01:04:34.790 01:04:39.169

You say that if you wanted to feel

01:04:39.169 01:04:44.120

confident in front of a Japanese soldier. you spoke German?

01:04:44.120 01:04:44.750

Yes.

01:04:44.750 01:04:47.035

Because at that time. he didn't know if you're Jewish or not.

01:04:47.035 01:04:50.380

They wouldn't. They knew that we were not part of

01:04:50.380 01:04:55.535

the allies by speaking German because they were part of the Axis.

01:04:55.535 01:04:59.355

That means that they knew the difference between German and English.

01:04:59.355 01:05:01.590

We don't know that for sure.

01:05:01.590 01:05:05.230

but one assumes that and to be safe.

01:05:05.440 01:05:07.460

It helped.

01:05:07.460 01:05:10.350

It does. It did.

01:05:12.670 01:05:16.620

You still did everything as before?

01:05:16.620 01:05:22.085

You went to school? You went to play with friends even on the street?

01:05:22.085 01:05:25.380

Yes. Not much changed.

01:05:26.290 01:05:30.335

Your mother was still working.

01:05:30.335 01:05:36.425

But maybe people at that time had less money to spend

01:05:36.425 01:05:40.770

on expensive clothes because

01:05:40.770 01:05:45.560

no one knew what's going to happen after the Japanese took over.

01:05:45.560 01:05:48.215

Well. that's where the effect was felt.

01:05:48.215 01:05:53.325

that our business obviously suffered to a certain extent.

01:05:53.325 01:05:56.530

But she also has Japanese clientele.

01:05:56.530 01:05:59.840

many of whom were American-educated.

01:06:01.530 01:06:06.350

So. to a certain extent.

01:06:07.030 01:06:11.540

She also made oriental cloth or only European?

01:06:11.540 01:06:13.400

No. They would wear

01:06:13.400 01:06:19.440

European clothes but she could also make orientals. That wasn't a problem.

01:06:23.590 01:06:27.665

She had enough material?

01:06:27.665 01:06:29.360

That was available.

01:06:29.360 01:06:34.070

Usually. the oriental cloth are different materials from the Europeans.

01:06:34.070 01:06:34.460

Yes.

01:06:34.460 01:06:39.980

So. she had enough material for the European clothes although the war?

01:06:39.980 01:06:42.540

It was available.

01:06:44.110 01:06:47.460

In Shanghai. anything was available.

01:06:47.460 01:06:52.230

There was one incident that I hadn't mentioned.

01:06:53.250 01:06:58.690

it had a very specific effect on me.

01:06:58.690 01:07:01.830

At one period of time in Hongkew.

01:07:01.830 01:07:06.930

we were walking down a street and passing

01:07:06.930 01:07:12.890

an alleyway and the Japanese were hanging a Chinese man.

01:07:12.890 01:07:17.380

I saw him hang there and that this street.

01:07:17.380 01:07:22.610

we eventually lived on after 1943.

01:07:24.160 01:07:28.560

So. the cruelty was evident.

01:07:28.720 01:07:32.290

At that time before 43.

01:07:32.290 01:07:38.910

you didn't have any contacts with the Jews in Hongkew?

01:07:39.510 01:07:43.660

Unless we knew. There were people we knew. of course.

01:07:43.660 01:07:46.080

So. there was contact in that respect.

01:07:46.080 01:07:49.305

but there was free access.

01:07:49.305 01:07:54.020

But mostly. you had nothing to do with them?

01:07:54.020 01:07:56.285

Especially for you as a child?

01:07:56.285 01:07:58.340

They didn't go to school with you?

01:07:58.340 01:08:03.705

No. So. in that respect.

01:08:03.705 01:08:06.155

there was no relationship at all.

01:08:06.155 01:08:08.340

Did you like school?

01:08:08.340 01:08:10.405

Did I like school? Yes.

01:08:10.405 01:08:12.690

You were a good student?

01:08:12.690 01:08:14.950

Moderate.

01:08:15.070 01:08:20.845

The teachers were English from Great Britain?

01:08:20.845 01:08:23.170

At one time. yes.

01:08:23.170 01:08:32.580

That changed obviously after 42 but my English teacher was from England.

01:08:32.580 01:08:36.790

To this day. she is remembered fondly

01:08:36.790 01:08:42.470

by my classmates who are still alive and I'm still friendly with.

01:08:46.420 01:08:54.340

We say that you didn't have much to do with the Jews in Hongkew and

01:08:54.340 01:09:02.010

yet you also didn't have much to do with the high society Jews there.

01:09:02.010 01:09:03.470

That's correct.

01:09:03.470 01:09:08.045

So. mostly. your contacts were with those who went to school

01:09:08.045 01:09:12.110

with you which was the Russian Jewish colony?

01:09:12.110 01:09:15.135

In part. the Russian Jewish colony.

01:09:15.135 01:09:17.160

in part. us refugees.

01:09:17.160 01:09:27.665

Because the Russian colony was there mostly from 1917. '18. and 1920.

01:09:27.665 01:09:31.340

After the Russian revolution.

01:09:31.340 01:09:41.950

they went there and the refugees were like you from the Southeast. et cetera.

01:09:43.000 01:09:50.300

I suppose that you had a German Austrian colony there?

01:09:50.300 01:09:59.375

Not physically colony but a community that you used to speak German with them?

01:09:59.375 01:10:05.270

Had no association with the non-Jewish German community.

01:10:05.270 01:10:10.535

No. I'm not talking about non-Jewish but the German refugees like you.

01:10:10.535 01:10:15.385

Yes. I would either be depending on who it was you were talking to.

01:10:15.385 01:10:17.165

either German or English.

01:10:17.165 01:10:21.990

So. if you went to school and the school was

01:10:21.990 01:10:27.595

an English school and then most of the children there.

01:10:27.595 01:10:31.530

I understand well. from the Russian Jewish community.

01:10:31.530 01:10:34.245

so what was the common language for you?

01:10:34.245 01:10:35.205

English.

01:10:35.205 01:10:40.670

So. in the beginning. you couldn't speak to each other till you learned English?

01:10:40.670 01:10:42.395

Well. that didn't take long.

01:10:42.395 01:10:45.770

As a child. that does never takes long.

01:10:47.110 01:10:54.335

Was there a big difference in the mentality of the Russian.

01:10:54.335 01:10:57.195

Jews children. and you?

01:10:57.195 01:11:00.780

If there was. I wasn't aware of it.

01:11:01.750 01:11:04.445

A close friend of mine.

01:11:04.445 01:11:06.380

we went to school with her.

01:11:06.380 01:11:12.460

was born of Russian parentage born in Shanghai and we're still friends.

01:11:12.460 01:11:16.220

seven years later or more.

01:11:19.850 01:11:25.605

What else before May 23?

01:11:25.605 01:11:27.299

Well it's in February.

01:11:27.299 01:11:29.955

is when the announcement was made.

01:11:29.955 01:11:34.215

So that's when things started changing.

01:11:34.215 01:11:39.030

The bombardments begin later on?

01:11:39.030 01:11:39.540

Yes.

01:11:39.540 01:11:39.990

Right?

01:11:39.990 01:11:41.220

Yes.

01:11:41.220 01:11:47.970

So till May 43

01:11:47.970 01:11:52.590

was still in the French area.

01:11:52.590 01:11:58.885

Nice. relatively nice conditions and your mother was still walking.

01:11:58.885 01:12:05.215

Although.it was a little bit less than it used to be before.

01:12:05.215 01:12:11.995

And then when there was the announcement that you'll have to move to Hongkew.

01:12:11.995 01:12:14.895

was it a shock to your family?

01:12:14.895 01:12:21.870

Probably. Probably what was

01:12:21.870 01:12:26.025

happening in Europe as they remembered it. was following them.

01:12:26.025 01:12:30.540

Nobody knew what the effect of this was going to be.

01:12:31.960 01:12:38.090

But you don't remember actual panic?

01:12:38.090 01:12:40.895

When you had to move to Hongkew.

01:12:40.895 01:12:42.110

No. not panic.

01:12:42.110 01:12:46.280

What my parents did is that they saw it.

01:12:46.280 01:12:49.890

they went to seek for a place to live.

01:12:49.890 01:12:51.270

In Hongkew?

01:12:51.270 01:12:52.905

It had to be in Hongkew.

01:12:52.905 01:12:58.770

In Hongkew and inside what they used to call the ghetto.

01:12:58.770 01:13:05.680

Yes.Yes. It had to be within the designated areas. that's what they called it.

01:13:07.610 01:13:11.685

I thought it was called a restricted area.

01:13:11.685 01:13:16.650

Well. It was both. At first it was the designated because they designated at the outside.

01:13:16.650 01:13:20.255

And then it was restricted because you needed permission to leave.

01:13:20.255 01:13:26.335

Yes. So. officially they didn't call it ghetto but it was the ghetto.

01:13:26.335 01:13:33.940

Not as stable as the Polish ghettos but it was the ghetto.

01:13:33.940 01:13:38.620

So. they found a place to live there?

01:13:38.620 01:13:39.970

An apartment?

01:13:39.970 01:13:41.590

No. As a matter of fact-

01:13:41.590 01:13:49.015

Because most of the Jews there lived in the synagogue or in a kind of a refugee camp.

01:13:49.015 01:13:51.565

They were called the Haim.

01:13:51.565 01:13:53.800

There are a lot of people who lived there.

01:13:53.800 01:13:55.780

Half the community lived in that.

01:13:55.780 01:13:59.200

But we were fortunate together with another family.

01:13:59.200 01:14:05.135

we bought a four room house.

01:14:05.135 01:14:06.470

You bought?

01:14:06.470 01:14:11.500

Yes we bought. Together with this other family.

01:14:11.580 01:14:14.140

A four room house.

01:14:14.140 01:14:16.970

The family also from Germany?

01:14:16.970 01:14:19.025

Yes. They were from Germany.

01:14:19.025 01:14:23.030

Four rooms? It's a lot for two families.

01:14:23.030 01:14:24.500

No. it isn't

01:14:24.500 01:14:27.965

Relatively to the conditions in the ghetto.

01:14:27.965 01:14:31.545

for two families it was every spacious.

01:14:31.545 01:14:33.110

In that respect. yes.

01:14:33.110 01:14:35.550

But it was one large room downstairs.

01:14:35.550 01:14:37.610

when one large room upstairs.

01:14:37.610 01:14:39.980

and there was a little space in between.

01:14:39.980 01:14:41.580

and then one room.

01:14:41.580 01:14:45.430

small room downstairs and the same size room upstairs.

01:14:45.430 01:14:47.985

So. it was a two-storey house.

01:14:47.985 01:14:51.265

The other people who lived there.

01:14:51.265 01:14:54.440

was a man and woman.

01:14:54.440 01:14:57.785

his daughter. son in law and granddaughter.

01:14:57.785 01:15:02.340

So. they had. the man and woman had the room downstairs.

01:15:02.340 01:15:08.415

and the daughter. husband and granddaughter had the small room upstairs.

01:15:08.415 01:15:12.420

The big room upstairs was where my family lived.

01:15:12.420 01:15:18.405

and the other room was the communal kitchen.

01:15:18.405 01:15:25.460

It consisted of a basin with cold water tap.

01:15:25.460 01:15:29.950

and there was a space between the two houses.

01:15:29.950 01:15:31.130

these are row houses.

01:15:31.130 01:15:33.295

There was a little space between.

01:15:33.295 01:15:36.325

that space between became the toilet area.

01:15:36.325 01:15:39.910

That too had a basement and cold water.

01:15:39.910 01:15:43.940

And it had two buckets that were picked up.

01:15:43.940 01:15:47.060

honey buckets that were picked up every week.

01:15:48.830 01:15:57.210

That means that it was completely different from what you had in the French area?

01:15:57.210 01:15:57.840

Yes.

01:15:57.840 01:16:03.120

And yet it was much

01:16:03.120 01:16:08.925

better than it was for the others in the camps.

01:16:08.925 01:16:10.350

There was I think.

01:16:10.350 01:16:13.800

in a foreman's school yard or something like that.

01:16:13.800 01:16:21.600

There was a refugee camp.and in the synagogue there was a refugee camp?

01:16:21.600 01:16:23.984

No. Not in the synagogue.

01:16:23.984 01:16:26.070

the Mere Yeshiva occupied

01:16:26.070 01:16:29.505

the synagogue for a little while before they were put into housing.

01:16:29.505 01:16:35.460

But they tried to get exempted from having to go to Hongkew. but they didn't.

01:16:38.230 01:16:42.560

I think there were three Haima.

01:16:42.560 01:16:46.005

The three communal living areas.

01:16:46.005 01:16:50.110

That were really run on charity.

01:16:50.110 01:16:56.480

And I understand that you and brother were

01:16:56.480 01:17:03.215

together with your parents in the big room on the second floor?

01:17:03.215 01:17:06.515

Yes. The way I describe it is that.

01:17:06.515 01:17:09.340

we had a living room. we had a dining room.

01:17:09.340 01:17:12.550

we had bedrooms. we had a sitting room.

01:17:12.550 01:17:14.880

It was all the same room

01:17:15.250 01:17:19.745

And next to you on the smaller room.

01:17:19.745 01:17:22.115

there were the neighbors

01:17:22.115 01:17:27.480

There was a neighbor. You could also hear the neighbors through the walls.

01:17:27.580 01:17:30.205

You didn't need television.

01:17:30.205 01:17:34.170

sometimes you had entertainment from the people next door to you.

01:17:34.170 01:17:35.645

Did you know them?

01:17:35.645 01:17:37.835

Did your parents know them before?

01:17:37.835 01:17:44.450

No. Found them while we were searching for a place to live.

01:17:44.450 01:17:51.205

And it was a good combination?

01:17:51.205 01:17:53.990

Both families?

01:17:53.990 01:17:57.215

Yeah. Oh yes. We survived. we survived.

01:17:57.215 01:17:59.940

No major problems between the two families?

01:17:59.940 01:18:08.150

No major problems. No. They were totally unreligious. into marriage.

01:18:08.150 01:18:13.575

and as a matter of fact.

01:18:13.575 01:18:15.650

the son in law.

01:18:15.650 01:18:22.870

until Hitler. never even knew he had a Jewish background.

01:18:22.870 01:18:26.810

He was the youngest son of a wealthy family.

01:18:26.810 01:18:36.230

Had enjoyed America and got back to Germany and found out that he was a Jew.

01:18:36.230 01:18:37.145

Suddenly he's Jewish.

01:18:37.145 01:18:39.450

Yes suddenly he's Jewish.

01:18:42.700 01:18:47.240

The little daughter. she was your age or younger than you?

01:18:47.240 01:18:48.960

She was younger.

01:18:50.230 01:18:54.205

And there he spoke only German.

01:18:54.205 01:19:00.920

Well. he spoke English but basically only German in the house.

01:19:00.920 01:19:02.710

What about your parents.

01:19:02.710 01:19:09.150

besides German could they communicate in any other language?

01:19:09.150 01:19:10.815

They had to learn English.

01:19:10.815 01:19:14.310

They had to learn some English. Which they did.

01:19:14.310 01:19:19.945

And you learned how to communicate with your hands.

01:19:19.945 01:19:23.050

You made yourself understood.

01:19:23.050 01:19:30.910

So. English was the other language besides Chinese which obviously-.

01:19:30.910 01:19:31.555

Yes.

01:19:31.555 01:19:35.800

-none of the strangers speak.

01:19:35.800 01:19:39.740

There are some people who have learned how to speak Chinese.

01:19:40.320 01:19:43.435

Did you learn Chinese at school?

01:19:43.435 01:19:45.720

Not till after the war.

01:19:45.720 01:19:49.835

because the Japanese made the foreigners learn Japanese.

01:19:49.835 01:19:56.750

the Chinese decided that foreigners are going to have to learn Chinese.

01:19:56.750 01:20:00.475

So you learned a little bit of Japanese?

01:20:00.475 01:20:03.085

Yes. Very little.

01:20:03.085 01:20:08.225

When the teacher comes in and takes off his pistol and puts it on the desk.

01:20:08.225 01:20:11.450

he's not going to teach children very much.

01:20:14.880 01:20:21.265

But did you like something about the Chinese culture or

01:20:21.265 01:20:27.740

the Japanese culture which was so different from what you knew at home?

01:20:27.740 01:20:34.180

Those are things as a child you had never even considered.

01:20:35.390 01:20:40.645

I like to say that this is the way. this was life.

01:20:40.645 01:20:43.560

I had no basis of comparison.

01:20:43.560 01:20:46.305

I didn't know that there could be a different life.

01:20:46.305 01:20:51.655

But were you attracted to the oriental cultures?

01:20:51.655 01:20:55.190

No. Since we had since very little interaction.

01:20:55.190 01:21:00.855

other than living together but you weren't friendly necessarily.

01:21:00.855 01:21:05.240

But in Hongkew. you were living together with Chinese-.

01:21:05.240 01:21:05.660

Yes.

01:21:05.660 01:21:10.460

-which wasn't like that when you were the French section.

01:21:10.460 01:21:13.415

But now you're together with Chinese?

01:21:13.415 01:21:15.700

Except that in the French concession.

01:21:15.700 01:21:21.170

the landlord was Chinese or the person running the apartment.

01:21:22.540 01:21:28.230

Because on the last space that we celebrated in the French Concession.

01:21:28.230 01:21:31.230

when we opened the door for Eliyahu.

01:21:31.230 01:21:33.610

there was the landlord.

01:21:35.450 01:21:39.100

So we know it will be a chinaman.

01:21:39.830 01:21:46.590

So. in Hongkew as you said.

01:21:46.590 01:21:51.435

your standard of living really went down.

01:21:51.435 01:21:56.380

What about your mother's walk?

01:21:59.480 01:22:02.475

There was less of it.

01:22:02.475 01:22:05.070

but she continued to work for some-

01:22:05.070 01:22:06.745

She could go outside?

01:22:06.745 01:22:13.100

Ultimately. she got permission to do so as we got permission to go to school. too.

01:22:13.100 01:22:17.975

You either had a three months or a three-week pass.

01:22:17.975 01:22:20.210

I thought it was for a year.

01:22:20.210 01:22:22.370

No. It was not.

01:22:22.370 01:22:24.140

It was a pass-

01:22:24.140 01:22:27.365

So you had to renew it every time?

01:22:27.365 01:22:31.770

You were never sure that they will renew it.

01:22:32.200 01:22:35.575

There was no guarantee it would be renewed.

01:22:35.575 01:22:37.580

My mother who also still had

01:22:37.580 01:22:43.470

some Japanese customers who obviously gave her a recommendation.

01:22:43.470 01:22:46.155

One day when she went to renew.

01:22:46.155 01:22:47.690

she had a three-week pass.

01:22:47.690 01:22:49.970

when she went to renew it.

01:22:49.970 01:22:52.740

the official said no.

01:22:52.810 01:22:57.435

She came back a few hours later wearing different clothes.

01:22:57.435 01:22:59.245

He said no again.

01:22:59.245 01:23:02.810

She came back a few hours later wearing different clothes.

01:23:02.810 01:23:06.950

Still said no. The fourth time. She got it.

01:23:06.950 01:23:09.570

So it was just like that.

01:23:09.570 01:23:10.815

It was random.

01:23:10.815 01:23:14.335

Well. yes. absolutely random.

01:23:14.335 01:23:18.610

I was in line behind a man who was the butcher.

01:23:18.610 01:23:20.260

As a child. he was a big.

01:23:20.260 01:23:23.480

strong. white man. real strong.

01:23:23.710 01:23:26.890

The official just got up and beat him up.

01:23:26.890 01:23:28.975

slapped him around and everything.

01:23:28.975 01:23:31.115

Scared me to death.

01:23:31.115 01:23:33.020

Next I came up.

01:23:33.020 01:23:34.260

friendly as can be.

01:23:34.260 01:23:37.880

smiling and got their approval.

01:23:38.700 01:23:46.060

So. there is something about people

01:23:46.060 01:23:53.410

saying the Japanese are let's say a bit cruel.

01:23:53.410 01:23:59.680

Their cruelty is something out of the culture.

01:23:59.680 01:24:01.510

or something like that?

01:24:01.510 01:24:07.360

In studies that I have made as an adult and things that I have read.

01:24:07.360 01:24:12.760

I am amazed that the Japanese officials

01:24:12.760 01:24:18.960

and the Japanese government didn't do things worse to us than they did.

01:24:18.960 01:24:23.570

Because the way they treated the allied prisoners that they had.

01:24:23.570 01:24:27.595

the noncombatants. was horrendous.

01:24:27.595 01:24:30.925

So in comparison. we were treated very well.

01:24:30.925 01:24:36.380

I think that they didn't even know what Jews are.

01:24:36.380 01:24:40.620

They didn't know Jews before.

01:24:41.050 01:24:45.705

I think that is not totally correct because the

01:24:45.705 01:24:49.925

Japanese by and large. they're very intelligent.

01:24:49.925 01:24:56.045

So the appropriate government officials knew what Jews are.

01:24:56.045 01:24:58.040

There was an admiral.

01:24:58.040 01:25:00.725

a Japanese admiral. in charge of Shanghai.

01:25:00.725 01:25:03.755

He was under tremendous pressure from the Germans.

01:25:03.755 01:25:08.800

I'm not talking about the high command of the Japanese.

01:25:08.800 01:25:09.475

The average?

01:25:09.475 01:25:13.824

But the average Japanese even in Shanghai.

01:25:13.824 01:25:16.300

they didn't know what the Jews are.

01:25:16.300 01:25:16.810

No. they wouldn't know.

01:25:16.810 01:25:19.705

Like the Chinese didn't know what Jews are.

01:25:19.705 01:25:20.215

No.

01:25:20.215 01:25:23.470

They were foreigners and that's it.

01:25:23.470 01:25:27.580

That's right that the Japanese were under

01:25:27.580 01:25:33.835

German pressure to give the Jews away and they didn't.

01:25:33.835 01:25:34.990

Yes.

01:25:34.990 01:25:40.135

Till today. I don't know what were the reasons.

01:25:40.135 01:25:42.620

Nobody does. actually.

01:25:42.620 01:25:44.605

There's been speculation.

01:25:44.605 01:25:48.960

People have written books on the speculation. but nobody knows.

01:25:48.960 01:25:55.975

But the attitude of the Japanese toward foreigners.

01:25:55.975 01:26:00.104

particularly combatants and their families.

01:26:00.104 01:26:03.990

and the cruelty is part of their nature.

01:26:03.990 01:26:07.750

It is amazing that they didn't exercise that against us.

01:26:07.750 01:26:11.275

But you saw it on occasions.

01:26:11.275 01:26:14.245

Oh. yes. On occasions you could see it.

01:26:14.245 01:26:18.890

They had no inhibition in beating somebody up.

01:26:19.590 01:26:22.060

For no reason?

01:26:22.060 01:26:27.860

No. Just because you didn't bow your head properly enough or something.

01:26:27.860 01:26:30.070

They could be very cruel.

01:26:30.070 01:26:32.410

What about the Japanese children.

01:26:32.410 01:26:36.535

did you have anything to do with them?

01:26:36.535 01:26:38.990

No association at all.

01:26:42.000 01:26:46.880

Of course.the Japanese and the Chinese didn't like each other very much.

01:26:46.880 01:26:50.440

so did you see on the streets.

01:26:50.440 01:26:56.480

for instance. fights between Japanese and Chinese children?

01:26:56.480 01:26:57.490

No.

01:26:57.490 01:27:01.634

Could you even say who's Japanese.

01:27:01.634 01:27:04.080

who's Chinese? Could you see the difference?

01:27:04.080 01:27:08.235

Eventually. you do learn that there are some differences.

01:27:08.235 01:27:13.330

Because for me they look the same.

01:27:13.330 01:27:20.240

We see that as part of our population too but there are differences.

01:27:20.790 01:27:24.440

But as a foreigner. we had basically.

01:27:24.440 01:27:30.540

no association with either the Chinese children or the Japanese.

01:27:31.870 01:27:34.760

When you were in Hongkew.

01:27:34.760 01:27:39.685

you could still celebrate the Jewish holidays?

01:27:39.685 01:27:41.730

As a matter of fact. more so.

01:27:41.730 01:27:47.025

Because Hongkew also had the influence of the Mir.

01:27:47.025 01:27:50.620

Besides going to the day school.

01:27:51.560 01:27:57.855

excuse me. I went to the territory of the Mir.

01:27:57.855 01:28:05.505

But Mir Yeshiva coming from the town Mir.

01:28:05.505 01:28:12.570

they where more Orthodox than you used to be. I supposed.

01:28:12.570 01:28:14.445

Much more Orthodox.

01:28:14.445 01:28:18.280

But they tried to influence as much as they could.

01:28:22.310 01:28:29.190

Did your parents know what Mir is about when they sent you there?

01:28:29.190 01:28:35.150

I'm not so sure. Perhaps they sent us there just to make sure we don't get in trouble.

01:28:35.150 01:28:37.530

We learned something about Judaism.

01:28:37.530 01:28:39.790

Your brother was there also?

01:28:39.790 01:28:41.035

Yes.

01:28:41.035 01:28:43.660

What was the language there?

01:28:43.660 01:28:45.415

Yiddish.

01:28:45.415 01:28:49.825

You could understand Yiddish because of your German?

01:28:49.825 01:28:51.290

Yes.

01:28:52.590 01:28:55.720

But could you speak Yiddish?

01:28:55.720 01:28:58.000

If you mispronounce German.

01:28:58.000 01:28:59.340

you can speak Yiddish.

01:28:59.340 01:29:02.260

What about reading and writing?

01:29:02.260 01:29:04.445

Well. not reading and writing.

01:29:04.445 01:29:05.840

Because it's the Hebrew letters.

01:29:05.840 01:29:07.730

But you learned the Hebrew. well.

01:29:07.730 01:29:13.095

you learned Hebrew. and you learned to translate from the Hebrew into the Yiddish.

01:29:13.095 01:29:15.615

It's not easy.

01:29:15.615 01:29:17.460

You were young.

01:29:17.460 01:29:19.395

How old were you at that time?

01:29:19.395 01:29:22.920

Well. I was 11 when the war ended.

01:29:22.920 01:29:29.030

So. it would have been from about nine and a half.10. and 11.

01:29:29.100 01:29:31.905

Did you like it there?

01:29:31.905 01:29:35.440

No basis of comparison. yes.

01:29:35.740 01:29:43.325

Sometimes. I ask someone if he liked the [Foreign language].

01:29:43.325 01:29:44.725

Of course. at that time.

01:29:44.725 01:29:48.705

you didn't have anything to compare with and yet he said.

01:29:48.705 01:29:50.610

"No. I didn't like it.

01:29:50.610 01:29:51.930

I didn't like the [Foreign language].

01:29:51.930 01:29:55.065

I didn't like this and that."

01:29:55.065 01:29:58.020

You had to compare it to school.

01:29:58.020 01:30:01.350

Well. to compare it to school. it was different.

01:30:01.350 01:30:04.915

It was different in the pronunciation of Hebrew.

01:30:04.915 01:30:10.880

because during the day time in classes you would learn Sephardi Hebrew.

01:30:11.210 01:30:13.755

That's the Hebrew we speak today?

01:30:13.755 01:30:18.810

Yes. and that in prayer.

01:30:18.810 01:30:22.530

at the Mir. you had to use the European.

01:30:22.530 01:30:25.740

So you had that differences.

01:30:25.740 01:30:28.365

The teachers were different.

01:30:28.365 01:30:30.980

I was lucky I had some good teachers.

01:30:30.980 01:30:33.480

I had friends there.

01:30:33.480 01:30:35.595

They were Hasidic?

01:30:35.595 01:30:37.600

Oh. yes.

01:30:37.670 01:30:40.920

Not Lithuanians. but Hasidic.

01:30:40.920 01:30:43.350

Well. there were Lithuanians.

01:30:43.350 01:30:45.900

Mir is in Poland so they were-

01:30:45.900 01:30:49.335

Mir. if I'm not mistaken is Belarus.

01:30:49.335 01:30:51.060

if I'm not mistaken.

01:30:51.060 01:30:52.770

I believe it's in Poland.

01:30:52.770 01:30:54.690

It's a city in Poland but-

01:30:54.690 01:30:57.795

It's used to be in Poland.

01:30:57.795 01:31:00.030

But today. I think.

01:31:00.030 01:31:04.240

it's Belarus. if I remember correctly.

01:31:05.300 01:31:08.970

Without looking at a globe.

01:31:08.970 01:31:12.350

neither of us could- we could be both right.

01:31:12.350 01:31:16.010

But anyway. it was Hasidic Yeshiva.

01:31:16.010 01:31:17.860

Yes. it was.

01:31:17.860 01:31:20.840

I had a friend who did not go there.

01:31:20.840 01:31:26.125

I had been known to skip classes and I'd go there to be with my friend.

01:31:26.125 01:31:31.430

Did you begin to have [Foreign language].

01:31:31.430 01:31:36.755

No. the [Foreign language] we were against that.

01:31:36.755 01:31:43.275

But you began to become a German Chavez.

01:31:43.275 01:31:45.555

They tried to influence that.

01:31:45.555 01:31:47.745

Which you weren't before?

01:31:47.745 01:31:52.095

We went to the extent that they tried to do it.

01:31:52.095 01:31:56.220

As my oldest friend tells me that he

01:31:56.220 01:32:00.570

remembers when I wouldn't have a handkerchief in my pocket.

01:32:00.570 01:32:03.300

I would carry it in my belt.

01:32:03.370 01:32:06.830

You were [Foreign language].

01:32:06.830 01:32:11.480

So when you came home from that Talmud Tora.

01:32:11.480 01:32:14.540

and you told your parents. "Listen.

01:32:14.540 01:32:18.130

we shouldn't do this and this and this on Saturday."

01:32:18.130 01:32:21.575

They said in the Talmud Torah.

01:32:21.575 01:32:24.980

So how did they react?

01:32:24.980 01:32:31.490

They said that they encouraged us to follow the instructions that we were given.

01:32:31.490 01:32:36.500

They didn't object and that we went on doing what we did.

01:32:36.500 01:32:39.665

They changed some things also?

01:32:39.665 01:32:43.590

Not really. Not really

01:32:43.690 01:32:50.180

At that time you went to the synagogue every Friday and Saturday.

01:32:50.180 01:32:54.770

Yes. we will go to the Talmud Torah where they've had services.

01:32:56.310 01:32:59.140

That was all part of the education.

01:32:59.140 01:33:02.245

Your brother had Bar Mitzvah there?

01:33:02.245 01:33:06.070

My brother had his Bar Mitzvah in November of 1944.

01:33:06.070 01:33:11.590

How was it? He had

01:33:11.590 01:33:14.860

the sermons and all the [Foreign language] and

01:33:14.860 01:33:17.875

everything that we use to do in the Bar Mitzvah?

01:33:17.875 01:33:22.650

Well. all he did was he was called from after and he read the half Torah.

01:33:22.650 01:33:26.080

and that was it.

01:33:26.630 01:33:29.355

That's the way it used to be

01:33:29.355 01:33:32.550

Festive dinner or something?

01:33:32.550 01:33:37.120

No. there was a reception at the house that was prepared.

01:33:38.840 01:33:42.810

So under the circumstances. it was very nice.

01:33:42.810 01:33:46.960

It was the only [Foreign language] where there was no bomb falling.

01:33:50.850 01:33:59.020

So now. you had let's say two centers in your life?

01:33:59.020 01:34:03.685

One was school. the other was the Mir Yeshiva.

01:34:03.685 01:34:04.495

Yeah.

01:34:04.495 01:34:08.170

Were the children your age?

01:34:08.170 01:34:08.950

Oh yes.

01:34:08.950 01:34:10.930

They didn't go to school with you but-

01:34:10.930 01:34:11.110

Yes.

01:34:11.110 01:34:13.540

-others that you didn't know before.

01:34:13.540 01:34:19.565

So. you knew some children that you didn't know before?

01:34:19.565 01:34:20.740

There was a refugee.

01:34:20.740 01:34:25.950

a Jewish refugees school that was established by Kadares.

01:34:25.950 01:34:29.330

the Shanghai Jewish Youth Association School.

01:34:29.330 01:34:35.285

And some of my classmates at the time of [Foreign language].

01:34:35.285 01:34:38.265

they went to that school.

01:34:38.265 01:34:41.070

So. we became friends.

01:34:41.070 01:34:48.710

What about Zionist movement around there because the war was in Shanghai?

01:34:48.710 01:34:53.305

We belong. I belong to [Foreign language].

01:34:53.305 01:34:58.080

Because your friends were there or because of the ideology?

01:34:58.710 01:35:01.750

That age does not know ideology.

01:35:01.750 01:35:04.980

Ideology didn't mean anything. You went there-

01:35:04.980 01:35:05.940

Your friends went there?

01:35:05.940 01:35:09.690

Friends went there. Parents encouraged you to go there

01:35:09.690 01:35:15.290

because of keep you out of trouble. keep you busy.

01:35:16.420 01:35:19.995

That was more important than any ideology.

01:35:19.995 01:35:22.150

What did you do there in [Foreign language]?

01:35:22.150 01:35:26.235

We learned to march.

01:35:26.235 01:35:29.005

we learned to play soldier.

01:35:29.005 01:35:35.020

and learned songs and learned Zionism.

01:35:35.020 01:35:36.595

[Foreign language]

01:35:36.595 01:35:38.420

As our leader.

01:35:38.420 01:35:41.790

You didn't have the brown uniform?

01:35:41.790 01:35:46.450

Yes. we did. which is something I never understood.

01:35:46.450 01:35:50.385

But at least. as I think of it as an adult. why brown?

01:35:50.385 01:35:51.960

But we wore brown shirts.

01:35:51.960 01:35:59.590

and it was the Jew scouts. not ideology.

01:36:00.350 01:36:02.550

But my father-

01:36:02.550 01:36:05.595

You were not fighting with other movements?

01:36:05.595 01:36:11.770

No. No. No. You could have belonged to Misrafi too.

01:36:11.770 01:36:16.585

and if there were differences in ideology.

01:36:16.585 01:36:18.580

it was very unimportant.

01:36:18.580 01:36:25.345

My father was a member of Hagana. I have it.

01:36:25.345 01:36:28.550

I have in my possession that he had a certificate.

01:36:28.550 01:36:30.240

not a certificate. had a book.

01:36:30.240 01:36:33.585

It was to give charity. to make donations if he could.

01:36:33.585 01:36:36.420

And your brother was also in [Foreign language]?

01:36:36.420 01:36:38.135

Yes. He was also.

01:36:38.135 01:36:44.440

The means that you thought that when the war was over you were going to Palestine?

01:36:44.440 01:36:46.410

We thought that was an option.

01:36:46.410 01:36:48.300

We didn't know for sure.

01:36:48.300 01:36:55.555

Although I assume you didn't know what was going on in Germany.

01:36:55.555 01:37:00.610

going back to Germany after the war was no option?

01:37:00.610 01:37:01.685

No.

01:37:01.685 01:37:05.055

Even before you knew what's going on there?

01:37:05.055 01:37:08.765

It definitely was no option after we knew.

01:37:08.765 01:37:10.105

But before?

01:37:10.105 01:37:14.475

I don't think we ever looked ahead that far.

01:37:14.475 01:37:18.655

When the letters stopped.

01:37:18.655 01:37:21.785

you saw that it's something to do with the war?

01:37:21.785 01:37:25.010

Absolutely. And after the war.

01:37:25.010 01:37:29.985

there was some letters that were written to us in Shanghai.

01:37:29.985 01:37:32.865

That's when we received them.

01:37:32.865 01:37:38.135

And then. we received through the international organizations.

01:37:38.135 01:37:42.360

We received lists of people who died.

01:37:42.360 01:37:46.450

And I remember being with my father looking at the list.

01:37:46.450 01:37:50.800

and seeing the effect it had on him when his family was all on there.

01:37:50.800 01:37:59.900

And your mother lost

01:37:59.900 01:38:05.780

her parents and the sisters in the family?

01:38:05.780 01:38:10.110

Yes. All of them. My cousins.

01:38:11.790 01:38:16.250

I grew up without knowing my grandparents.

01:38:16.250 01:38:17.540

No first. no uncle.

01:38:17.540 01:38:21.670

no aunt. no first cousins.

01:38:21.670 01:38:26.010

So. you had only one aunt in America and that's it?

01:38:26.010 01:38:28.170

And whom I didn't remember from Germany.

01:38:28.170 01:38:30.960

So. that's it.

01:38:32.380 01:38:36.555

But at that time in Shanghai.

01:38:36.555 01:38:40.600

you didn't really know what's going on?

01:38:40.600 01:38:44.575

You. as you can say you live the day.

01:38:44.575 01:38:49.520

And I understand that you had. the whole time.

01:38:49.520 01:38:52.040

you had the permission to go out to school.

01:38:52.040 01:38:55.710

and your mother had the permission to go to work outside.

01:38:55.710 01:38:58.535

So. that means you were not hungry?

01:38:58.535 01:38:59.975

Oh yes.

01:38:59.975 01:39:01.940

It does not mean we weren't hungry.

01:39:01.940 01:39:07.105

but that was just part of the way things are.

01:39:07.105 01:39:09.255

Things may get better. they may not.

01:39:09.255 01:39:15.950

You didn't know what was going on in the war because the Swiss were in Shanghai.

01:39:15.950 01:39:18.285

and they gave out news.

01:39:18.285 01:39:19.700

The Red Cross.

01:39:19.700 01:39:22.490

Well. not the Red Cross per se.

01:39:22.490 01:39:28.495

but the Swiss. you got the information from them.

01:39:28.495 01:39:29.325

But-

01:39:29.325 01:39:34.685

Then you learned. you also learned how to interpret the Japanese propaganda.

01:39:34.685 01:39:36.655

You learned how to interpret

01:39:36.655 01:39:40.600

the Russian propaganda because

01:39:40.600 01:39:45.385

the Russians were not at war with Japan until the last minute.

01:39:45.385 01:39:47.680

Was it you waited.

01:39:47.750 01:39:54.685

whom did you think that will save you;the Americans.

01:39:54.685 01:39:58.210

the British. the Russians? What did you think about?

01:39:58.210 01:40:05.695

We didn't. I cannot ever think of a time when I thought of somebody saving us.

01:40:05.695 01:40:13.040

The concern more was when will it end and how will it end?

01:40:13.980 01:40:18.760

And yet. at the end of '43.

01:40:18.760 01:40:22.720

there was a permission to be joined by

01:40:22.720 01:40:27.000

the American finance ministry or something like that.

01:40:27.000 01:40:30.310

They had the permission again to send

01:40:30.310 01:40:35.130

some money and some help to the refugees in Shanghai.

01:40:35.130 01:40:39.495

So. things became a little better.

01:40:39.495 01:40:44.530

You remember. you felt the difference between and after?

01:40:44.530 01:40:45.140

Well.

01:40:45.140 01:40:51.120

Or maybe you didn't need anything from the community there?

01:40:51.120 01:40:55.760

Well. fortunately. we were not recipients of any of the.

01:40:55.760 01:40:57.810

"Give me no funds." I have seen-

01:40:57.810 01:41:01.890

No even when you went in for the second time in Hong Kong.

01:41:01.890 01:41:05.020

No. Not even then.

01:41:06.630 01:41:10.885

From research I have done as an adult.

01:41:10.885 01:41:19.700

and from a PhD dissertation that was written by somebody that I have read.

01:41:19.700 01:41:26.000

there was an American social worker that was sent to Shanghai in 1941.

01:41:26.000 01:41:31.630

And she made the arrangements ultimately

01:41:31.630 01:41:34.065

that the secretary of the treasury of America

01:41:34.065 01:41:38.089

allowed the joint to send money to Switzerland.

01:41:38.089 01:41:40.580

and they changed the money in Switzerland.

01:41:40.580 01:41:44.315

and the Swiss then sent money.

01:41:44.315 01:41:52.705

But you didn't feel the difference because you were not in such a need as they were.

01:41:52.705 01:41:57.770

but when you were in the French Concession.

01:41:57.770 01:42:02.775

okay. you didn't see those people because they were apart from you.

01:42:02.775 01:42:05.155

When you lived in the Hongkew.

01:42:05.155 01:42:07.150

you saw the other Jews.

01:42:07.150 01:42:10.590

You saw the conditions of the others.

01:42:10.590 01:42:15.980

You saw them miserable and hungry. et cetera.

01:42:15.980 01:42:22.105

Was that a big difference between them and you?

01:42:22.105 01:42:24.400

I wouldn't call that a big difference.

01:42:24.400 01:42:26.755

It's just a difference of emphasis.

01:42:26.755 01:42:30.200

We were the luckier ones.

01:42:32.070 01:42:35.810

And it wasn't day and night.

01:42:35.810 01:42:43.000

It was just that they were able because the Jewish Committee.

01:42:43.000 01:42:45.635

even the Russian Jewish community in Shanghai.

01:42:45.635 01:42:49.560

I think they tried to help the immigrants also

01:42:49.560 01:42:54.870

even during the period when America couldn't or wouldn't allow it.

01:42:54.870 01:42:59.295

And so. to a certain extent.

01:42:59.295 01:43:03.160

nothing really changed. Justice saw us.

01:43:04.370 01:43:09.550

And yet you said that there was a point that you

01:43:09.550 01:43:14.340

had to sell the China and things you got from Germany?

01:43:14.340 01:43:18.125

That was in order to buy the property in Hongkew.

01:43:18.125 01:43:22.700

We were lucky to have it. to sell it.

01:43:24.240 01:43:33.100

but that became the payment for the place in Shanghai. in Hongkew.

01:43:33.720 01:43:40.020

So you still had everything you needed for school.

01:43:40.020 01:43:45.300

for basic life. you had enough clothes.

01:43:45.300 01:43:48.780

and shoes. and the books for school et cetera?

01:43:48.780 01:43:52.660

Yes.

01:43:52.660 01:43:58.200

And food on the table although the variety was not as before.

01:43:58.200 01:44:01.320

but you had food on the table?

01:44:01.320 01:44:03.050

Yes.

01:44:03.930 01:44:07.850

You used to be spoiled about food?

01:44:07.850 01:44:08.610

No.

01:44:08.610 01:44:10.860

That. "Oh I don't like this. I don't like that."

01:44:10.860 01:44:13.500

No. My father's rule was very simple;

01:44:13.500 01:44:18.060

you eat what's served or you go hungry. So. you had a choice.

01:44:18.060 01:44:22.630

And they didn't force you to eat what was on your plate.

01:44:22.630 01:44:26.300

and settle near the table till you finished it?

01:44:26.300 01:44:29.070

No. No. You don't want to eat it.

01:44:29.070 01:44:32.230

you don't have to. but you're not getting anything else.

01:44:32.520 01:44:37.090

I think it's a little better than what I heard

01:44:37.090 01:44:41.290

about bringing up in Germany that either you had to

01:44:41.290 01:44:44.970

sit near the table till you finish what you have on

01:44:44.970 01:44:49.285

your plate or you had the same thing on the next-

01:44:49.285 01:44:51.985

Next meal.

01:44:51.985 01:44:53.890

Lunch or yeah. So-

01:44:53.890 01:44:55.280

No. It wasn't that.

01:44:55.280 01:44:57.015

Your parents were moderate?

01:44:57.015 01:44:59.960

I would say they were more moderate. plus.

01:44:59.960 01:45:02.870

many times if you sat down to eat.

01:45:02.870 01:45:08.525

there could be disruption by alarm. air raid.

01:45:08.525 01:45:11.855

So. that it becomes meaningless anyway.

01:45:11.855 01:45:22.490

The- The upbringing of you was you think it was different

01:45:22.490 01:45:28.435

because you were in Shanghai than if you were in Berlin at the same time.

01:45:28.435 01:45:30.805

I mean. all the rules and

01:45:30.805 01:45:38.585

the restrictions and everything that we know about the classical German education.

01:45:38.585 01:45:41.730

I wouldn't have any way of knowing that.

01:45:41.730 01:45:44.435

But I think my parents were.

01:45:44.435 01:45:49.800

they were strict in some respects and liberal in others.

01:45:50.310 01:45:57.620

So. you lived under the circumstances and did what had to be done and that was it.

01:45:57.620 01:46:04.860

Do you remember your parents kissing and hugging you as a child?

01:46:04.860 01:46:06.775

Somewhat yes.

01:46:06.775 01:46:09.520

Yes. we didn't feel neglected.

01:46:09.520 01:46:16.180

No. I'm not talking about neglected but sometimes there is a saying about

01:46:16.180 01:46:25.240

the Jews from Germany that they didn't really hugged and kissed the children.

01:46:25.240 01:46:35.350

No. we felt that we were loved. never a problem.

01:46:36.570 01:46:41.230

The only thing is that sometimes you saw other mothers be at

01:46:41.230 01:46:45.985

home with their children and you knew your mother wasn't because she was working.

01:46:45.985 01:46:50.770

But I suppose that your father was much more with you.

01:46:50.770 01:46:54.950

He was. but he also did some things out of the house.

01:46:54.950 01:46:56.140

Like what?

01:46:56.140 01:46:58.810

He and one of the Himes.

01:46:58.810 01:47:07.555

they had problems in the kitchen and he volunteered to oversee.

01:47:07.555 01:47:11.865

He had the type of personality that he could make people get along.

01:47:11.865 01:47:17.265

The big privileges that we got out of that is that occasionally.

01:47:17.265 01:47:19.585

we could go and take a shower there.

01:47:19.585 01:47:22.265

He was like a referee there?

01:47:22.265 01:47:27.810

Yes. Yes. he got the talent.

01:47:30.710 01:47:38.605

And for you. the biggest problem at that time was the bombardments?

01:47:38.605 01:47:40.100

No. it wasn't the problem.

01:47:40.100 01:47:41.560

We knew it was happening.

01:47:41.560 01:47:45.530

We had heard of that super bomb that America dropped.

01:47:45.530 01:47:48.400

We didn't know what an atomic bomb was.

01:47:48.400 01:47:50.470

we were afraid that the next Air Raid.

01:47:50.470 01:47:55.675

they will drop one on us. But other than that.

01:47:55.675 01:48:01.465

But there was a constant bombardments over Shanghai.

01:48:01.465 01:48:04.205

Not constant. not constant.

01:48:04.205 01:48:07.510

Shanghai. because it's a port city and because of

01:48:07.510 01:48:10.690

the facilities they had that eventually. they tried to.

01:48:10.690 01:48:16.315

I think there was a big bomb that they.

01:48:16.315 01:48:17.380

They missed.

01:48:17.380 01:48:23.425

Sent to. no. they sent it to the Japanese radio station in Hongkew.

01:48:23.425 01:48:24.640

Yes. Yes and they missed.

01:48:24.640 01:48:26.110

And many people were injured.

01:48:26.110 01:48:28.270

Yes. July of 1945.

01:48:28.270 01:48:30.830

I'm well aware of that.

01:48:31.830 01:48:38.790

Because you could see anybody who had any medical knowledge

01:48:38.790 01:48:48.490

or ability was asked to help down the lane from us.

01:48:50.270 01:48:54.170

There was a doctor who lived there who before

01:48:54.170 01:48:57.180

leaving Germany was a guest of the Germans in

01:48:57.180 01:49:00.680

the concentration camp and decided never to

01:49:00.680 01:49:04.760

practice medicine anymore and he was called in to help.

01:49:04.760 01:49:10.445

It was close to the place that you lived in?

01:49:10.445 01:49:13.640

Yes. everything was close in the Ghetto.

01:49:13.640 01:49:20.410

And when there was a bombardment.

01:49:20.410 01:49:23.025

I understand that that wasn't a lawn before.

01:49:23.025 01:49:23.575

Yes.

01:49:23.575 01:49:26.160

But you had where to go to hide.

01:49:26.160 01:49:29.185

You had a cellar or shelter or something?

01:49:29.185 01:49:33.550

You did. There were places designated as shelters.

01:49:33.550 01:49:41.185

And I learned early on that that's the worst place in the world to go because people

01:49:41.185 01:49:44.665

had different types of reactions

01:49:44.665 01:49:50.350

and it's better to take your chances outside than inside.

01:49:50.350 01:49:54.930

So at an early point.

01:49:54.930 01:49:56.080

I made up my mind.

01:49:56.080 01:50:00.510

I was into shelters and that I wouldn't go to them anymore.

01:50:00.510 01:50:03.540

What did your parents say about it?

01:50:03.540 01:50:05.110

Well. not too much.

01:50:05.110 01:50:07.190

They could understand the problem.

01:50:07.190 01:50:13.265

My father. one of the requirements that they made in the Ghetto was that

01:50:13.265 01:50:20.830

you had to form your own community.

01:50:20.830 01:50:24.010

air raid wards and things like that.

01:50:24.010 01:50:28.455

He was in charge of a medical supplies.

01:50:28.455 01:50:29.960

But because of his health.

01:50:29.960 01:50:33.245

he couldn't do so much so I took over that.

01:50:33.245 01:50:37.910

So. that's why I was able to stay outside. Nobody bothered me.

01:50:37.910 01:50:45.370

It wasn't frightening to be outside at that time?

01:50:45.370 01:50:50.215

No. You see you saw the trace of bullets.

01:50:50.215 01:50:52.570

The bullets that light up.

01:50:52.570 01:50:56.095

you saw those and you watched that.

01:50:56.095 01:50:58.840

It was frightening but it was that's what was happening.

01:50:58.840 01:51:07.600

You didn't. you didn't do a big deal out of it?

01:51:07.600 01:51:14.769

Not really. When we left Shanghai.

01:51:14.769 01:51:18.340

before we left. I advocated we sell

01:51:18.340 01:51:23.300

our house as a bomb proof house a bomb never hit it. it was a bombproof.

01:51:27.180 01:51:36.580

At that time. did you have any use from the other war because the war was over in Europe?

01:51:36.580 01:51:42.350

Yes. we knew that the war was over in Europe and we also started getting

01:51:42.350 01:51:49.260

slowly getting information of what happened.

01:51:49.310 01:51:52.700

Not specific just. general information.

01:51:52.700 01:51:56.870

But again. the Swiss. the Russians.

01:51:56.870 01:52:00.300

the Japanese who were winning the war.

01:52:00.300 01:52:05.270

they gave you. you learn to interpret some of this information.

01:52:05.400 01:52:09.030

I mean. nearly to the last day.

01:52:09.030 01:52:11.065

the Japanese were winning the war.

01:52:11.065 01:52:17.250

And you saw Japanese soldiers around the Ghetto.

01:52:17.250 01:52:20.080

they were going here and forth.

01:52:20.080 01:52:24.445

and you say that you are not afraid of them.

01:52:24.445 01:52:28.150

Well. you learn to live with it.

01:52:28.150 01:52:31.420

Not specific fear. you didn't go up and say hello to them.

01:52:31.420 01:52:33.720

You try to avoid them.

01:52:34.950 01:52:38.735

On the way from Hongkew to school.

01:52:38.735 01:52:44.385

most days there would be an air raid alarm during the morning.

01:52:44.385 01:52:48.110

So. that means that trains.

01:52:48.110 01:52:50.495

the trams. they wouldn't run.

01:52:50.495 01:52:53.725

no transportation. So you had to walk.

01:52:53.725 01:52:55.930

It's a long distance?

01:52:55.930 01:52:58.180

It was quite the distance.

01:52:58.180 01:53:00.370

It was quite a distance but.

01:53:00.370 01:53:01.390

Like half an hour or so?

01:53:01.390 01:53:03.600

At least that. But sometimes.

01:53:03.600 01:53:08.570

it took us an hour or more but we always made it in time for lunch.

01:53:10.710 01:53:18.080

Did you have an opportunity to buy some food outside the Ghetto

01:53:18.080 01:53:20.895

which was not available inside that

01:53:20.895 01:53:24.755

people asked you since you don't have a permit to go out?

01:53:24.755 01:53:28.290

No. No such request were ever made.

01:53:29.370 01:53:33.570

Anything that was sold outside of the Ghetto was

01:53:33.570 01:53:36.790

also available in the Ghetto to the extent.

01:53:36.790 01:53:38.960

Maybe it was more expensive in the Ghetto.

01:53:38.960 01:53:42.210

Well. to the extent that the Chinese were selling it.

01:53:42.210 01:53:45.330

Because they sold. on the street.

01:53:45.330 01:53:50.225

they've sold a lot of vegetables and things like that.

01:53:50.225 01:53:53.125

Seaweed and things. that kind of things.

01:53:53.125 01:53:56.235

And they also sold sweet potato.

01:53:56.235 01:54:00.495

They had ovens that they baked sweet potato in.

01:54:00.495 01:54:03.250

They sold it already baked.

01:54:03.250 01:54:05.930

Yes. already baked. Yes.

01:54:10.440 01:54:14.055

I think it's your nature because.

01:54:14.055 01:54:16.325

as you describe it.

01:54:16.325 01:54:21.530

nothing was too bad for you.

01:54:21.900 01:54:23.740

At the primer?

01:54:23.740 01:54:25.855

But it's not that it wasn't bad.

01:54:25.855 01:54:29.440

I think it's your character that makes it.

01:54:29.440 01:54:35.170

Very possible. But as an adult.

01:54:35.170 01:54:38.150

when I learnt about it.

01:54:38.230 01:54:45.115

the very fact that you didn't have a basis of comparison meant that was life.

01:54:45.115 01:54:49.130

That's the way it was. You accepted it.

01:54:49.850 01:54:55.010

You heard of stories of people who couldn't accept it.

01:54:57.000 01:55:00.680

people who died by their own hand.

01:55:00.680 01:55:03.320

I knew some of these people.

01:55:04.580 01:55:07.780

That was their problem.

01:55:07.960 01:55:11.520

We were together with my brother and I.

01:55:11.520 01:55:14.030

we were together with our parents.

01:55:14.030 01:55:19.260

and we were planning for worst things to happen.

01:55:19.260 01:55:21.050

As the war was coming to an end.

01:55:21.050 01:55:23.130

we didn't know what was.

01:55:24.090 01:55:30.310

Do you remember when they announced that the war is over?

01:55:30.310 01:55:30.910

Yes.

01:55:30.910 01:55:34.500

For you? I mean. because it was over before you knew hope.

01:55:34.500 01:55:41.115

Yes. The evidence of it was that you saw Japanese soldiers on the street.

01:55:41.115 01:55:44.520

but not with bayoneted guns.

01:55:45.070 01:55:49.130

Because under the international law.

01:55:49.130 01:55:51.455

they had to keep law and order.

01:55:51.455 01:55:54.810

but the Chinese took over very quickly.

01:55:55.760 01:55:58.840

Then the emphasis came on the Chinese ward.

01:55:58.840 01:56:02.460

Was there a [Foreign language] or something of Chiang Kai-shek

01:56:02.460 01:56:06.185

and his soldiers when they entered Shanghai?

01:56:06.185 01:56:12.535

No. Not specifically that I remember.

01:56:12.535 01:56:16.839

I suppose you were not as happy as the Chinese

01:56:16.839 01:56:20.680

there when Chiang Kai-shek entered Shanghai?

01:56:20.680 01:56:24.260

Well. his reputation wasn't the best.

01:56:24.260 01:56:29.430

And it was a fight between him and the communist.

01:56:30.260 01:56:32.500

Before we left Shanghai.

01:56:32.500 01:56:35.600

one of the things that was evident was that

01:56:35.600 01:56:40.810

every corner they would dig a hole. a foxhole.

01:56:41.420 01:56:46.565

Years later. I went out to a trip to Shanghai.

01:56:46.565 01:56:49.315

and those holes all had trees in them.

01:56:49.315 01:56:52.585

When we were living there. there were no trees.

01:56:52.585 01:56:56.610

So they put. at least put something to good use.

01:56:57.080 01:57:03.940

What did they think to do with those holes at the time?

01:57:03.940 01:57:12.595

A soldier would jump in there for protection. and use that as a basis of shooting.

01:57:12.595 01:57:14.705

It was deep enough that someone could?

01:57:14.705 01:57:19.510

Yes. It was deep enough that somebody could lean in there.

01:57:19.650 01:57:22.659

So the war is over.

01:57:22.659 01:57:24.725

and what about you?

01:57:24.725 01:57:32.490

The war is over. we find out what really happened in Europe. and after that.

01:57:32.490 01:57:35.440

That means that no going back to Germany.

01:57:35.440 01:57:38.095

There was no question about that at all.

01:57:38.095 01:57:42.109

and we were stateless.

01:57:42.180 01:57:48.545

and we were hoping to see if we could come to America.

01:57:48.545 01:57:52.135

My aunt who was living in New York.

01:57:52.135 01:57:56.910

in those days. in order to get permission to go to America.

01:57:56.910 01:57:58.215

you had to have a sponsor.

01:57:58.215 01:58:01.080

Yes. You need someone to guarantee you.

01:58:01.080 01:58:05.880

That's right. And she was worried that she and her husband didn't have

01:58:05.880 01:58:11.680

enough to make the guarantee.

01:58:11.680 01:58:14.270

She worked for a Jewish man.

01:58:14.270 01:58:18.105

and I guess he saw her being concerned.

01:58:18.105 01:58:20.575

asked what the problem was.

01:58:20.575 01:58:24.730

and she told him. and he says.

01:58:24.730 01:58:29.410

"Well. I'm a long lost cousin.

01:58:29.410 01:58:33.660

I'll help." And that's how eventually.

01:58:33.660 01:58:36.295

we got our visas.

01:58:36.295 01:58:40.420

But since you and your brother were in

01:58:40.420 01:58:45.340

[Foreign language] you said your father was connected to the Haganah.

01:58:45.340 01:58:47.530

But you. as youngsters.

01:58:47.530 01:58:54.470

you didn't try to pressure on your parents maybe to go to Palestine?

01:58:54.470 01:59:00.635

No. No. That was a decision that they were making. and my father would.

01:59:00.635 01:59:05.185

Without talking with you about it?

01:59:05.185 01:59:06.620

Yes.

01:59:07.980 01:59:12.310

So. you didn't try to convince them to do something?

01:59:12.310 01:59:16.310

No. You went where your parents went.

01:59:16.310 01:59:24.245

And for you. America is relatively easy because you already speak English.

01:59:24.245 01:59:26.590

When I came. we spoke English.

01:59:26.590 01:59:28.985

Although another English. but still it's English.

01:59:28.985 01:59:30.755

We spoke English.

01:59:30.755 01:59:32.790

You spoke the real English?

01:59:32.790 01:59:34.070

Not American.

01:59:34.070 01:59:38.890

And as you said before.

01:59:38.890 01:59:41.605

you arrived to America.

01:59:41.605 01:59:44.140

today. 70 years ago.

01:59:44.140 01:59:50.050

that means on the 16th of May. 1947.

01:59:50.050 01:59:51.010

That's correct.

01:59:51.010 01:59:52.435

To New York?

01:59:52.435 01:59:55.285

No. We came to San Francisco.

01:59:55.285 01:59:57.430

and we spent several weeks.

01:59:57.430 02:00:00.660

So. your aunt didn't wait for you because she was in New York?

02:00:00.660 02:00:02.640

She was in New York. She did wait.

02:00:02.640 02:00:05.180

We spent several weeks in San Francisco.

02:00:05.180 02:00:09.100

and then we took a train from San Francisco to New York.

02:00:09.100 02:00:14.230

across the country. and then we united in New York.

02:00:14.230 02:00:17.535

New York was too big for my parents.

02:00:17.535 02:00:20.665

and we didn't really stay there very long.

02:00:20.665 02:00:25.245

and then through the HIAS.

02:00:25.245 02:00:29.260

the Hebrew International Aid Society or the Joint.

02:00:29.260 02:00:32.230

we settled into Minnesota.

02:00:34.550 02:00:36.450

Minnesota is.

02:00:36.450 02:00:36.945

Yes.

02:00:36.945 02:00:37.915

Very cold.

02:00:37.915 02:00:41.455

Well. Minnesota has same weather as Berlin.

02:00:41.455 02:00:42.385

Really?

02:00:42.385 02:00:42.775

Yes.

02:00:42.775 02:00:46.360

Because it's the northern part of America.

02:00:46.360 02:00:50.080

Yes. So. very similar weather.

02:00:50.080 02:00:54.625

I thought that the winter there is terrible. in Minnesota?

02:00:54.625 02:00:56.065

No. You get used to it.

02:00:56.065 02:00:58.045

You were there in Minneapolis?

02:00:58.045 02:00:58.630

St. Paul.

02:00:58.630 02:01:00.685

Oh. St.Paul. okay. The other side of the river?

02:01:00.685 02:01:04.190

That's right. We settled in St. Paul.

02:01:04.800 02:01:06.880

and went to school there.

02:01:06.880 02:01:08.890

then went to university there.

02:01:08.890 02:01:14.890

You didn't feel any cultural shock when you arrived to America?

02:01:14.890 02:01:17.140

Well. things were different.

02:01:17.140 02:01:17.860

Although you spoke the language.

02:01:17.860 02:01:20.110

We spoke the language. so that was easier.

02:01:20.110 02:01:22.255

But in any other aspect.

02:01:22.255 02:01:25.465

it was completely different from what you knew.

02:01:25.465 02:01:28.415

Well. there weren't any Chinese around

02:01:28.415 02:01:32.375

There was no Chinese quarter in?

02:01:32.375 02:01:33.070

No.

02:01:33.070 02:01:35.435

In Minnesota. only in New York?

02:01:35.435 02:01:37.315

Well. San Francisco.

02:01:37.315 02:01:45.200

But we went to Chinatown in San Francisco. but couldn't communicate.

02:01:45.200 02:01:50.065

They spoke Cantonese and we had learned Shanghai and Mandarin.

02:01:50.065 02:01:54.560

Two strange languages. But no.

02:01:54.560 02:01:57.180

I acclimated very quickly

02:01:57.660 02:02:01.840

And you went to school there.

02:02:01.840 02:02:04.425

but what about your parents?

02:02:04.425 02:02:10.650

Well. they had to learn about America in order to become citizens.

02:02:15.510 02:02:18.310

What did they do there?

02:02:18.310 02:02:23.130

Well. my father went to work in a manufacturing place.

02:02:23.130 02:02:28.980

and my mother tried to make some connections to do her work.

02:02:29.480 02:02:37.050

At an early age. I went to work after school. and then continued.

02:02:37.050 02:02:41.010

Unfortunately. my father died early on.

02:02:42.960 02:02:48.495

And your mother had an independent business?

02:02:48.495 02:02:49.520

I'm sorry. what?

02:02:49.520 02:02:52.195

Your mother had an independent business?

02:02:52.195 02:02:54.835

Well. she did it from home then.

02:02:54.835 02:02:57.960

But she was the boss of herself?

02:02:57.960 02:02:58.140

Yes.

02:02:58.140 02:03:01.905

And she had help from. she had workers?

02:03:01.905 02:03:03.000

No. not anymore.

02:03:03.000 02:03:05.680

No. she did it all herself then.

02:03:05.690 02:03:10.670

But she was lucky that she got associated with people

02:03:10.670 02:03:15.720

who could afford to have things done.

02:03:16.000 02:03:19.960

She was the type of person when something didn't look good on you.

02:03:19.960 02:03:24.950

she tell you. Was not diplomatic.

02:03:25.440 02:03:29.860

Both you and your brother finished high school?

02:03:29.860 02:03:30.475

Yes.

02:03:30.475 02:03:32.215

In St.Paul?

02:03:32.215 02:03:32.785

Yes.

02:03:32.785 02:03:34.510

And then?

02:03:34.510 02:03:37.390

My brother went into the service.

02:03:37.390 02:03:39.365

into US Air Force.

02:03:39.365 02:03:44.300

and I went on to college. University of Minnesota.

02:03:47.430 02:03:50.725

And after that?

02:03:50.725 02:03:54.275

I went on to the University of Minnesota. Law School.

02:03:54.275 02:03:58.780

Then I became a lawyer and practiced law.

02:04:00.180 02:04:03.500

But you didn't stay in Minnesota?

02:04:03.500 02:04:05.540

I did for 20 years.

02:04:05.540 02:04:08.095

and then I moved to California.

02:04:08.095 02:04:10.785

You got married in Minnesota?

02:04:10.785 02:04:12.120

Yes. I did.

02:04:12.120 02:04:16.995

You said that your wife is a second cousin.

02:04:16.995 02:04:19.510

No. That wife was not.

02:04:19.510 02:04:22.550

I married a girl from Minnesota.

02:04:22.550 02:04:26.330

and we were married for 30 years and then divorced.

02:04:27.630 02:04:31.270

And you have how many children?

02:04:31.270 02:04:39.550

Two. One of them is Mosher. who lives here.

02:04:39.550 02:04:41.435

Who lives here in Israel?

02:04:41.435 02:04:44.485

And the other one that lives in Los Angeles.

02:04:44.485 02:04:48.120

Which is much closer to San Diego where you live.

02:04:48.120 02:04:50.790

Yes. Much closer.

02:04:51.150 02:04:54.620

Doesn't take 16 hours.

02:04:57.390 02:05:00.535

As far as I understand.

02:05:00.535 02:05:06.645

you became more religious over the years in America?

02:05:06.645 02:05:09.450

No. I don't think so.

02:05:09.450 02:05:12.205

We've always practiced Judaism.

02:05:12.205 02:05:16.750

all of the [Foreign language] and Chavez.

02:05:16.750 02:05:18.725

That was just part of life.

02:05:18.725 02:05:22.080

So. my son has become much more religious.

02:05:22.080 02:05:26.560

But I see. I don't know if it's like that in America.

02:05:26.560 02:05:32.035

but in Israel there is a symbolism to the [Foreign language] wearing.

02:05:32.035 02:05:34.180

Yes. I know. I realize that.

02:05:34.180 02:05:35.290

You are wearing a black one.

02:05:35.290 02:05:38.550

Yes. I realize that. I also have a grey one with me.

02:05:38.550 02:05:45.435

So. I'm well aware of the symbolism in Israel. but I'm Jewish.

02:05:45.435 02:05:50.135

I don't believe in all these distinctions.

02:05:50.135 02:05:56.275

I don't believe everything that the Haredi think.

02:05:56.275 02:06:00.225

is Judaism is really that prevalent anymore.

02:06:00.225 02:06:02.830

They don't want to assimilate.

02:06:02.830 02:06:05.780

I don't think that's right.

02:06:08.670 02:06:13.415

Even in San Diego I belong to an Orthodox Jew.

02:06:13.415 02:06:18.040

just because of the services is much more familiar.

02:06:18.330 02:06:23.905

Do you remember the first time that you felt American?

02:06:23.905 02:06:27.350

That you felt that America is home?

02:06:27.400 02:06:31.530

I think the day the day I got my citizenship.

02:06:31.530 02:06:36.775

The first time I had citizenship of a country of not being stateless.

02:06:36.775 02:06:38.865

How old were you at that time?

02:06:38.865 02:06:47.690

Nineteen. My parents got theirs some months before that and I got my own.

02:06:47.690 02:06:52.245

You didn't have to go to the army?

02:06:52.245 02:06:53.220

Well. no.

02:06:53.220 02:06:54.960

During the Vietnam War?

02:06:54.960 02:06:58.670

No. Actually. my day was Korea.

02:06:58.670 02:07:03.340

But because I was at school. I was deferred.

02:07:03.340 02:07:08.010

Then I got notice to take my army physical.

02:07:08.010 02:07:14.095

and my wife turned out to be pregnant with my eldest son.

02:07:14.095 02:07:17.040

so I was deferred again.

02:07:17.070 02:07:20.450

So. I never was in service.

02:07:20.640 02:07:26.375

So. the minute you became an American citizen.

02:07:26.375 02:07:29.600

you felt this is my country?

02:07:29.600 02:07:30.495

Yes.

02:07:30.495 02:07:34.595

Did you ever go to Germany again?

02:07:34.595 02:07:39.010

My wife and I in 1988.

02:07:39.010 02:07:40.120

You mean your current wife?

02:07:40.120 02:07:43.305

My current wife. In 1988.

02:07:43.305 02:07:45.400

we went to Germany.

02:07:45.400 02:07:49.560

It was very interesting to me

02:07:49.560 02:07:53.035

because I had heard stories about this place and that place.

02:07:53.035 02:08:00.075

It was almost 50 years after you left Germany as a little child?

02:08:00.075 02:08:01.625

It was 50 years later.

02:08:01.625 02:08:04.520

So it meant absolutely nothing to me.

02:08:04.520 02:08:07.065

I went to a city called Berlin.

02:08:07.065 02:08:09.235

very nice. big city.

02:08:09.235 02:08:12.820

There's a lot of interesting things. that's it.

02:08:12.820 02:08:16.970

Even if it's not familiar but because you speak

02:08:16.970 02:08:23.700

the language. and I assume that some of your parents culture was German.

02:08:23.700 02:08:27.060

didn't you feel very comfortable.

02:08:27.060 02:08:30.160

very homish in Germany?

02:08:30.160 02:08:33.590

Not at all. Not homish at all.

02:08:35.020 02:08:37.110

When I was in Germany.

02:08:37.110 02:08:40.610

I didn't let it be known that I speak German.

02:08:40.890 02:08:46.860

But you know when you enter the country. and they see that you were born in Germany.

02:08:46.860 02:08:48.680

automatically. they speak German to you?

02:08:48.680 02:08:50.500

Yes. they do and I look at them and say.

02:08:50.500 02:08:51.630

I'm sorry I don't understand.

02:08:51.630 02:08:53.680

Did you speak any English?

02:08:53.960 02:08:55.950

On purpose?

02:08:55.950 02:09:00.750

Yes. It makes it more interesting that way.

02:09:00.750 02:09:08.865

We went into East Berlin because my wife had a.

02:09:08.865 02:09:13.785

Eighty-eight. it was still East Berlin.

02:09:13.785 02:09:19.035

We went into East Berlin because we had both a cousin and a good friend there.

02:09:19.035 02:09:23.065

So we went through. and we had asked our friend if we can bring something.

02:09:23.065 02:09:27.145

and he said his wife likes to do Chinese cooking.

02:09:27.145 02:09:29.615

if we can bring some of these things.

02:09:29.615 02:09:32.620

So. we bought a big bottle like this of soy sauce.

02:09:32.620 02:09:36.260

As we go through the border my wife says.

02:09:36.260 02:09:38.130

"Please. don't fool around with them.

02:09:38.130 02:09:40.130

They don't have a sense of humor."

02:09:40.130 02:09:42.810

I show my passport it says.

02:09:42.810 02:09:44.150

I was born in Germany.

02:09:44.150 02:09:47.655

Gunther is a German name. or Swedish.

02:09:47.655 02:09:50.415

He starts talking to me and I look him in the face and said.

02:09:50.415 02:09:52.435

sorry. you speak any English?

02:09:52.435 02:09:54.110

I don't speak any of German.

02:09:54.110 02:09:57.705

They don't know whether I do or not.

02:09:57.705 02:10:02.645

He finally gave up on me and we went through the customs.

02:10:02.645 02:10:07.785

The custom lady. she wants to know what it is we're bringing.

02:10:07.785 02:10:11.035

She wants to know what's in the soy sauce.

02:10:11.035 02:10:13.150

It's a spiritus.

02:10:13.150 02:10:18.590

So I look her straight in the face and said. no. some cookin.

02:10:18.840 02:10:25.300

For cooking. She gave up on me.

02:10:25.300 02:10:28.775

That was the only time that you went to Germany?

02:10:28.775 02:10:36.230

No. I think two other times we went there.

02:10:36.230 02:10:37.895

In '88. I went.

02:10:37.895 02:10:41.890

We were going to be in Europe anyway and I went as

02:10:41.890 02:10:46.690

a guest of the Berlin government because they had that program.

02:10:46.690 02:10:50.530

But they started the program at the older people.

02:10:50.530 02:10:53.060

But as long as we were in Europe.

02:10:53.060 02:10:56.620

that we became. which was very nice.

02:10:56.710 02:11:01.470

Interesting city. I had heard of this place.

02:11:01.470 02:11:07.025

I had heard of that place but other than that.

02:11:07.025 02:11:10.530

no meaning at all.

02:11:10.530 02:11:15.205

So. now you live in San Diego.

02:11:15.205 02:11:21.835

I suppose you are no longer working as a lawyer?

02:11:21.835 02:11:24.440

I do some things.

02:11:24.540 02:11:27.010

I have an active life.

02:11:27.010 02:11:28.900

I still have an active license.

02:11:28.900 02:11:34.960

So. what I do is I sit as an arbitrator on financial matters.

02:11:34.960 02:11:38.825

so keep a little busy.

02:11:38.825 02:11:42.130

How many grandchildren do you have?

02:11:42.130 02:11:48.545

How many grandchildren? I have 24 grandchildren. great grandchildren.

02:11:48.545 02:11:50.995

I have 10 grandchildren.

02:11:50.995 02:11:56.160

24 great grandchildren. and number 25 underway.

02:11:56.160 02:11:59.605

I suppose that most of them are in Israel?

02:11:59.605 02:12:02.890

All of the great grandchildren are in Israel.

02:12:02.890 02:12:07.210

and eight out of the 10 grandchildren are in Israel.

02:12:07.910 02:12:13.425

There are four. two in Israel and the two in America who are not married yet.

02:12:13.425 02:12:16.030

That means that you are.

02:12:16.030 02:12:22.230

we can say on line coming to visit Israel?

02:12:22.230 02:12:26.410

Yeah. The first one.

02:12:26.410 02:12:31.730

the first great grandson had his [Foreign language] last week.

02:12:34.540 02:12:40.150

Is there anything else we did not talk about regarding the world?

02:12:40.150 02:12:44.530

I wanted to show you something interesting.

02:12:44.530 02:12:47.950

Pictures will do when we finished the interview.

02:12:47.950 02:12:50.560

but something that maybe we didn't say.

02:12:50.560 02:12:57.630

we didn't mention about the time in Germany and in Shanghai?

02:12:59.710 02:13:00.950

Can we?

02:13:00.950 02:13:01.390

No. you cannot.

02:13:01.390 02:13:03.885

Oh. we cannot. I need a Kleenex.

02:13:03.885 02:13:09.270

Oh. here. I've got one. Excuse me.

02:13:13.890 02:13:17.420

The thing that amazes me is that

02:13:17.420 02:13:24.450

suddenly the experience of Jews in Shanghai is of interest to people around the world.

02:13:25.200 02:13:27.220

There have been some movies

02:13:27.220 02:13:34.565

made none of which have so far shown the outlines of the Ghetto.

02:13:34.565 02:13:41.420

There are some places in Shanghai where evidence of the Ghetto still remains.

02:13:41.420 02:13:45.255

There are other places that have been eradicated.

02:13:45.255 02:13:50.440

but it was a place where I as a child grew up.

02:13:50.440 02:13:53.305

It shaped my life. I'm aware of that.

02:13:53.305 02:13:54.820

and I'm grateful for that.

02:13:54.820 02:13:59.580

and it was an interesting experience.

02:13:59.580 02:14:01.420

I have since. obviously.

02:14:01.420 02:14:04.585

as an adult learns that there's other ways of

02:14:04.585 02:14:09.220

experiencing life than the way I did. but I did.

02:14:09.600 02:14:12.785

I still have friends from those days.

02:14:12.785 02:14:14.660

We see each other regularly.

02:14:14.660 02:14:18.700

talked regularly. and life has gone on.

02:14:18.700 02:14:21.235

Okay. thank you very much.

02:14:21.235 02:14:30.610

Thank you. This picture

02:14:30.610 02:14:37.120

represents a photograph of my great grandparents.

02:14:37.120 02:14:41.895

and coincidentally. also my wife's great grandparents.

02:14:41.895 02:14:46.710

It is Simond Kinderman and his wife.

02:14:46.710 02:14:52.545

They were buried in [Foreign language] cemetery in Berlin.

02:14:52.545 02:14:59.070

My youngest grandson is named after Sherman Kinderman.

02:14:59.070 02:15:03.530

his name is Benjamin Sherman Kon.

02:15:09.660 02:15:17.660

This is a family picture that was taken in about 1928.

02:15:21.110 02:15:28.570

It was taken at the party for the [Foreign language] of this young man.

02:15:28.570 02:15:31.744

whose name was Sigebirth Kinderman.

02:15:31.744 02:15:40.340

who unfortunately in 1933 was one of the first Jews murdered by the Nazis in Berlin.

02:15:40.340 02:15:45.735

What is unusual about this picture is that for me.

02:15:45.735 02:15:51.890

it represents all of my great grandparents in one photograph.

02:15:51.890 02:15:53.160

and for my wife.

02:15:53.160 02:15:58.465

it represents part of her grandparents in the same photograph.

02:15:58.465 02:16:01.920

The families were friends with each other.

02:16:01.920 02:16:08.055

For instance. this is the father of the [Foreign language].

02:16:08.055 02:16:09.980

and this is the mother.

02:16:09.980 02:16:13.530

Here is his older sister.

02:16:13.530 02:16:16.550

who happens to be my grandmother.

02:16:17.330 02:16:19.850

Here is my grandfather.

02:16:19.850 02:16:22.010

the husband of the older sister.

02:16:22.010 02:16:31.675

Here is a picture of my paternal grandfather and my paternal grandmother.

02:16:31.675 02:16:38.490

A picture of my father and my mother who were not then yet married.

02:16:38.490 02:16:41.485

and a picture of my father's sister. my aunt.

02:16:41.485 02:16:45.665

who was also not then married and they were family friends.

02:16:45.665 02:16:54.040

This picture was displayed in the Jewish Museum in Berlin several years ago.

02:16:54.120 02:16:58.795

On this picture. you see some of the household help.

02:16:58.795 02:17:01.730

who I cannot identify.

02:17:08.710 02:17:13.575

This picture is the latest representation

02:17:13.575 02:17:18.710

of my eldest son's [Foreign language] and his family.

02:17:19.330 02:17:23.685

This was taken about 10 days ago on the occasion of

02:17:23.685 02:17:28.890

[Foreign language] of my eldest great grandson.

02:17:28.890 02:17:33.310

and it shows my wife and myself.

02:17:33.310 02:17:37.480

my son and daughter-in-law.

02:17:37.480 02:17:43.650

his eldest daughter who's son was the celebrant at that occasion.

02:17:43.650 02:17:46.215

and it shows all of the rest of the family.

02:17:46.215 02:17:51.300

God willing. it's represents 24 great grandchildren for us.

02:17:51.300 02:17:55.060

and eight grandchildren on this one photograph.

Testimony of Guenther Cohn, born in Berlin, Germany in 1934, regarding his family's experiences in Berlin, in Shanghai and in the Hongkew Ghetto Childhood; his father works in the marketing of hats that his grandfather produced; his mother works as a top quality seamstress; life until 1938; his parents decide to emigrate; unsuccessful attempts in obtaining a visa to South America; decision to travel to Shanghai, China without the need of a visa; receipt of exit permits; Kristallnacht; search [manhunt] for his father, who was in hiding; departure from their home; hasty departure on a train to Italy, 18 November 1938; they set sail to China on travel that lasts for approximately five weeks; arrival to the Hongkew Quarter in Shanghai; concentration of the refugees; his mother works as a top quality seamstress for women; his mother opens a fashion salon; they move to the French Quarter; he studies English in a private Jewish school; life without shortage; his father becomes sick; Japanese occupation, late 1941; they are forced to move to the Hongkew Ghetto in May 1943; they purchase a house along with another family; shortage of goods, but they are not hungry; permission to depart the ghetto for studies; his mother receives a permit to depart the ghetto to go to work; air-raids; end of the war, September 1945; entry of the Chinese; life including studies; receipt of a visa to the United States; arrival of his family to the United States in May 1947; life in the United States.